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you hold most of your army in reserve or on the back corner castled up. string out a 3 man bike unit 12" in front that the main big charging unit that isn´t using psychic shenanigans has to hit them or go round them increasing their charge distance.

This works to mitigate displacement by either increasing the gap between the 2 unit to more than 18" or makes the unit being swapped charge the bikes.

If you are not giving a WK secondary weapons then you are a fool.

 rawne2510 wrote:
you hold most of your army in reserve or on the back corner castled up. string out a 3 man bike unit 12" in front that the main big charging unit that isn´t using psychic shenanigans has to hit them or go round them increasing their charge distance.

This works to mitigate displacement by either increasing the gap between the 2 unit to more than 18" or makes the unit being swapped charge the bikes.

If you are not giving a WK secondary weapons then you are a fool.

You have to decide, either it's reserves or it's castle.
Either way, every single turn, you're getting assaulted anywhere on the board.

The main big unit is full of psychic shenanigans, that's the whole point of ED deathstars.

Besides, to prevent a charge in 7th edition, you need to create a wall of models so that no base can pass between them.
In other words, if the bases you're trying to stop are 32mm, you can't space your guys more than 32mm.
In order to cover enough surface to protect your hypothetical castle, you need at least a dozen bikes or more.

What you're missing though, is that there generally is a shooting phase before the assault phase, and it's generally quite easy to delete enough of the meatshield to just ignore it.
Good point about the WK, I always thought the secondary weapons were garbage, but it might be worth reconsidering since he's become a GMC.

When charging you can´t get within 1" of something you aren´t charging so the 2" gap is fine. With the big deathstar with all the psychic stuff is a lot of points so not so much additional shooting I usually see unless you are eldar.

The point of the bikes further up is to increase the charge distance and in addition the range for certain psychic spells.

morgoth wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Eldar can't deal with T1 charges competitively.

There is nothing cheap in codex craftworlds and bringing any kind of screening means pure dead weight against most armies.

We have conscripts that cost 8 points and don't have access to 10 point priests.

In an electro displacement meta, eldar are back to glass cannon status, which has been the case for all of codex:craftworlds, with an apparent lack of hammers in the meta.

Can't tell if you're joking or slow.
The most overpriced thing in the Craftworld codex is reasonably priced as far as most other codecies are concerned.

Can't tell if your insulting or just rude.

The point is very simple: there is no such thing as points efficient bubble-wrap when you play codex:craftworlds.

It's not about whether Eldar is OP or undercosted or anything: they just don't have the tools to deal with bubble-wrapping requirements.

Rude.
Although I prefer to use the term honest, I will settle for blunt.

See what I mean about Craftworld costs being reasonable at the worst? Your Rangers cost the same as my Blood Claws and if the match demands it I use them as meat shields.
Personally I've never been for bubble-wrapping, it means your stuff can be surrounded and cut off, then again, Craftworld has a lot of fast skimmers to move over the top of models anyway. Against GSC I prefer to use the board edges, terrain and my models to create layers that the cult will have to fight their way through, makes it hard to charge multiple units when you can only reach one or two, also hard to gang up on units when only one of your units or one model from each unit can reach combat at a time and whenever they win melee during their turn you shoot them during yours then plug the hole but don't charge.

Craftworld Eldar have troop units that can strike at higher initiative than most GSC units meaning you might win, a great assortment of cheap flyers that melee specialists don't have the firepower to shoot down and units that are functionally immortal to everything but Purestrain Genestealers, you also have good Reserves modding abilities that allow you to adapt to getting either first or second turn.

For Eldar I'd use Wraithguard with D-scythes and Rangers to form the layers, and a squad or two of Scattbikes as bait, otherwise, I'd keep most of my stuff in reserves. Scattbikes have the range to threaten beyond their little encampment and provide good bait just by being Scattbikes. Use the Rangers as blockers and the Wraithguard to thin down on any unit(s) that win combat in your opponent's turn before blocking them again with more Rangers.
I'd also be looking for opportunities to bring firepower out of reserves to bust up any firepower the GSC player might possess, like Leman Russes.

Against other 1st turn charge methods you'll have to think up your own strategies.

It's not like your Eldar "bubble wrap" has to be jetbikes either...you have access to a unit that will make any assault eat a minimum of 5d3 D-WEAPON SHOTS via wall of death. Put them in an open-topped transport from your fancy new detachment, and/or use some soulburst to nuke the deathstar after they've destroyed your meatshield or on the odd chance they actually do have enough shooting to kill it. Even if you're using vanilla Eldar, you can simply re-position most of your army 48 inches on the other side of the table next turn, if you aren't using reserve manipulation to massively beta-strike your opponents army.

morgoth wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
You give up 1 x 51 point bike unit to stop any nasty turn 1 charges then wipe the charging unit off the board with your so expensive yet points efficient army.

81 points to get 12 Str 6 36" shots.
325 points to get with respect one of the best GMC in game with either melee D that has a choice of charging 1 of 2 units or a 2 shot D platform with the capability of charging 1 of 4 units.

Should I go on. For what the eldar get for the points they spend it isn´t expensive at all

How do you expect to stop any nasty turn 1 charges with a single 51 point bike unit?
Besides, a Wraithknight only costs 295 points

Again, as I said, this is not about whether the Eldar are points efficient or not, this is about the simple fact that they can't deal with ElectroDisplacement Deathstars and are generally thwarted by T1 charges as a codex.

By the fact that a unit has to charge what it shoots. Unless the charging army manages to wipe the 51 point unit out with Splitfire or the during the Psychic Phase they shoot that 51 point unit out of the road and can't legally charge the unit behind it or they wipe it out in melee then stop.
Most Deathstars don't have Splitfire, actually, I've never come across one that did have it.
Fulmination Discipline has a pretty good shot with the Primaris Power Electrosurge.
Telepathy forces some leadership tests that might get them out of the way.

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Following all of the rules of this site is a condition of having an account here, and is something everyone agreed to do when they signed up.

Address/attack the points of a user's post, and not the user personally.

 rawne2510 wrote:
When charging you can´t get within 1" of something you aren´t charging

You can. Just can't get in b2b

No

morgoth wrote:
Eldar can't deal with T1 charges competitively.

There is nothing cheap in codex craftworlds and bringing any kind of screening means pure dead weight against most armies.

We have conscripts that cost 8 points and don't have access to 10 point priests.

In an electro displacement meta, eldar are back to glass cannon status, which has been the case for all of codex:craftworlds, with an apparent lack of hammers in the meta.

I don't care what Eldar can't handle. They can die in a fire at this point as far as I'm concerned.

I´ll rephrase it. I you are choosing to charge through an enemy unit and not charge it you may not get within 1" of any model in that unit. If you believe otherwise please show proof that you can ignore the restriction which is a fundamental of the game

 rawne2510 wrote:
When charging you can´t get within 1" of something you aren´t charging so the 2" gap is fine.

That's not 40K 7th ed.

You're specifically allowed to pass within 0.0001" of an enemy model during the charge move.

I suggest you take the time to re-read the assault phase rules, you don't want to make a fool of yourself one more post on such an old issue

Martel732 wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Eldar can't deal with T1 charges competitively.

There is nothing cheap in codex craftworlds and bringing any kind of screening means pure dead weight against most armies.

We have conscripts that cost 8 points and don't have access to 10 point priests.

In an electro displacement meta, eldar are back to glass cannon status, which has been the case for all of codex:craftworlds, with an apparent lack of hammers in the meta.

I don't care what Eldar can't handle. They can die in a fire at this point as far as I'm concerned.

Have to agree here that it is very hard for a combat orientated army to be able to get close so actually. Tough luck and deal with the counter

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Personally I've never been for bubble-wrapping, it means your stuff can be surrounded and cut off, then again, Craftworld has a lot of fast skimmers to move over the top of models anyway. Against GSC I prefer to use the board edges, terrain and my models to create layers that the cult will have to fight their way through, makes it hard to charge multiple units when you can only reach one or two, also hard to gang up on units when only one of your units or one model from each unit can reach combat at a time and whenever they win melee during their turn you shoot them during yours then plug the hole but don't charge.

Craftworld Eldar have troop units that can strike at higher initiative than most GSC units meaning you might win, a great assortment of cheap flyers that melee specialists don't have the firepower to shoot down and units that are functionally immortal to everything but Purestrain Genestealers, you also have good Reserves modding abilities that allow you to adapt to getting either first or second turn.

My bad, I thought we were talking about competitive Eldar, not about tailoring to beat a single build.

What I'm point out is that Electro Displacement deathstars break the game to the point where there can be no competitive Eldar at all.
And not just Eldar, many other factions cannot deal with that build without going for a 100% gimped build that stands no chance against other armies.

Eldar are only ever competitive through pure spam of undercosted high performing shooting units.
Once those units are actually threatened of assault, the whole army folds.
Even the mighty WraithKnight is garbage in assault, it takes a few nobs with PK or any other kind of powerfisting and it's over in seconds.

And that's fine, I mean if Eldar have to go to mid / bottom tier, that's fine too.

The problem is that Electro Displacement means auto-assault with a crazy-good deathstar that cannot lose in CC, guaranteed 95% of the time.
It's 100% brainless and it kills the whole meta which then becomes either ED or counter-ED.
I believe that's why the ITC commitee banned that psychic power from all ITC tournaments, it makes the game dumb.

On the other hand, I believe that GSC is an entirely different beast, which doesn't create the same problem, despite having first turn charge and the ability to shoot to remove road bumps.
Still, it doesn't seem to be game-breaking and can be worked around, probably because it doesn't have the invisible deathstar aspect on top.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 rawne2510 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


I don't care what Eldar can't handle. They can die in a fire at this point as far as I'm concerned.

Have to agree here that it is very hard for a combat orientated army to be able to get close so actually. Tough luck and deal with the counter

But that's the sad part.

T1 OP charges will make the game even shittier for the armies who can't do T1 charges or shooting.
What we need is not crazy fethed up IoM schemes, what we need is a way for most CC armies to actually get in CC with enough impact.

Gotta chime in here, the idea that melee wraithknights are garbage in melee is absurd. 4+ attacks at init 5 strength D and mastercrafted puts down a lot of damage. Your taking down 2-3 meganobz a round before counting in stomp. The nobs are wounding on a 3+ at best and then have a 5++ and feel no pain to get through. If the wraithknight succeeds on an invul save the nobs have to make a blind test.

I use my wraithknight at 100 points more expensive than the codex price dictates and it is STILL a beast to deal with.

Because that's the fair price. And, as predicted, it's still effective, but maybe not an auto-take. If something is an auto-take, it's too good.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Gotta chime in here, the idea that melee wraithknights are garbage in melee is absurd. 4+ attacks at init 5 strength D and mastercrafted puts down a lot of damage. Your taking down 2-3 meganobz a round before counting in stomp. The nobs are wounding on a 3+ at best and then have a 5++ and feel no pain to get through. If the wraithknight succeeds on an invul save the nobs have to make a blind test.

I use my wraithknight at 100 points more expensive than the codex price dictates and it is STILL a beast to deal with.

how are the nobz getting a 5++? mega armor gives a 2+ armor and no invulnerable save. orks were nerfed so hard with the 6th ed codex... cybork bodk is a 6+ fnp we have precious few inv saves in out codex limited to hq and kff

True Morgoth but they still have to cast the spell and there still has to be a unit there for them to do that.

Eldars new counter is Yanari. If they kill the 51 point blocking unit that is 7" away from 2 unit then you are likely to start losing model from the fire that is coming your way or you will see the next units in range disappear across the board and are safe. So eldar have safety again GAH.


As for the stay an inch away I was saying earlier. I apologize there is that subtle wording change which hugely helps my slaanesh army. Woot


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Gotta chime in here, the idea that melee wraithknights are garbage in melee is absurd. 4+ attacks at init 5 strength D and mastercrafted puts down a lot of damage. Your taking down 2-3 meganobz a round before counting in stomp. The nobs are wounding on a 3+ at best and then have a 5++ and feel no pain to get through. If the wraithknight succeeds on an invul save the nobs have to make a blind test.

I use my wraithknight at 100 points more expensive than the codex price dictates and it is STILL a beast to deal with.

how are the nobz getting a 5++? mega armor gives a 2+ armor and no invulnerable save. orks were nerfed so hard with the 6th ed codex... cybork bodk is a 6+ fnp we have precious few inv saves in out codex limited to hq and kff

I think he meant the WK gets a 5++ Inv followed by 5+ FnP that the orks have to get through

 rawne2510 wrote:
True Morgoth but they still have to cast the spell and there still has to be a unit there for them to do that.

Eldars new counter is Yanari. If they kill the 51 point blocking unit that is 7" away from 2 unit then you are likely to start losing model from the fire that is coming your way or you will see the next units in range disappear across the board and are safe. So eldar have safety again GAH.


As for the stay an inch away I was saying earlier. I apologize there is that subtle wording change which hugely helps my slaanesh army. Woot


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Gotta chime in here, the idea that melee wraithknights are garbage in melee is absurd. 4+ attacks at init 5 strength D and mastercrafted puts down a lot of damage. Your taking down 2-3 meganobz a round before counting in stomp. The nobs are wounding on a 3+ at best and then have a 5++ and feel no pain to get through. If the wraithknight succeeds on an invul save the nobs have to make a blind test.

I use my wraithknight at 100 points more expensive than the codex price dictates and it is STILL a beast to deal with.

how are the nobz getting a 5++? mega armor gives a 2+ armor and no invulnerable save. orks were nerfed so hard with the 6th ed codex... cybork bodk is a 6+ fnp we have precious few inv saves in out codex limited to hq and kff

I think he meant the WK gets a 5++ Inv followed by 5+ FnP that the orks have to get through

ahh understood, my apologies then, my caffine to blood ratio is too low this early

So ignoring formations, psychic powers and outside buffs how many units can actually charge in the first turn from their deployment zone.

Maybe some units from the LBSF if they get REALLY lucky.

Imagine if gebestealer cult could charge out of infiltrate/outflank every time. Tell me how this wouldn't break the game.

But they can't. So it's fine.

Are we complaining about the current state of first turn charges? Or removing even more restrictions?

The only thing I think needs to really change is assault from outflank. And maybe assault from a non-assault vehicle that didn't move.

Charging from Outflank - wasn't that around in 5e?

 Rolsheen wrote:
So ignoring formations, psychic powers and outside buffs how many units can actually charge in the first turn from their deployment zone.

From deployment zone to deployment zone pretty much none. It gets slightly diffrent where infilitrators are concerned though. I wouldn't say there's plenty but at least a few infiltration models are able to charge or get charged on their first turn.

The only model I can think of that's entirely based around a first turn charge is the callidus assasin. It's the only model in the game that can be deployed anywhere on the board (1" away from an enemy) and has special rules specifically to make it survive the first turn of enemy shooting.

morgoth wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Personally I've never been for bubble-wrapping, it means your stuff can be surrounded and cut off, then again, Craftworld has a lot of fast skimmers to move over the top of models anyway. Against GSC I prefer to use the board edges, terrain and my models to create layers that the cult will have to fight their way through, makes it hard to charge multiple units when you can only reach one or two, also hard to gang up on units when only one of your units or one model from each unit can reach combat at a time and whenever they win melee during their turn you shoot them during yours then plug the hole but don't charge.

Craftworld Eldar have troop units that can strike at higher initiative than most GSC units meaning you might win, a great assortment of cheap flyers that melee specialists don't have the firepower to shoot down and units that are functionally immortal to everything but Purestrain Genestealers, you also have good Reserves modding abilities that allow you to adapt to getting either first or second turn.

My bad, I thought we were talking about competitive Eldar, not about tailoring to beat a single build.

What I'm point out is that Electro Displacement deathstars break the game to the point where there can be no competitive Eldar at all.
And not just Eldar, many other factions cannot deal with that build without going for a 100% gimped build that stands no chance against other armies.

Eldar are only ever competitive through pure spam of undercosted high performing shooting units.
Once those units are actually threatened of assault, the whole army folds.
Even the mighty WraithKnight is garbage in assault, it takes a few nobs with PK or any other kind of powerfisting and it's over in seconds.

And that's fine, I mean if Eldar have to go to mid / bottom tier, that's fine too.

The problem is that Electro Displacement means auto-assault with a crazy-good deathstar that cannot lose in CC, guaranteed 95% of the time.
It's 100% brainless and it kills the whole meta which then becomes either ED or counter-ED.
I believe that's why the ITC commitee banned that psychic power from all ITC tournaments, it makes the game dumb.

On the other hand, I believe that GSC is an entirely different beast, which doesn't create the same problem, despite having first turn charge and the ability to shoot to remove road bumps.
Still, it doesn't seem to be game-breaking and can be worked around, probably because it doesn't have the invisible deathstar aspect on top.

We were talking about what Eldar can use as "meat shields" against first turn charges. I used GSC as a first turn charge example since they're probably one of the harder ones for Eldar to deal with. Electro Displacement is banned in ITC competitions so it hardly matters - Wolf stars can be countered by players learning the Wolfstar ranges and being out of range on the first turn or hiding stuff in reserves - hiding stuff in reserves also invalidates Skyhammer to a good degree, you just have to be able to wait out the blob arrival.

As far as competition goes the landscape is changing from completely favouring fragile highly mobile shootie armies to being something closer to rock->paper->scissors.
Shootie armies have to worry about Melee armies with first turn charges.
Melee armies with first turn charges have to worry about MSU that can layer up cheap stuff.
MSU that layers up cheap stuff fear mobile shootie armies.

There are more than three builds but that almost sounds like a balanced competition scene.

Me being the cynical type I'm betting 8th editon will hit and change everything before that balance settles.

I voted no, then realized I'm fine with 2nd turn 1 player getting a charge. So imagine a yes from me.

Yep, go nuts with it. It's still just a game. And as has been pointed out before, you pay a LOT to get that charge reliably.

At the FLGS we set up games in advance, and you kinda know what to expect. There's one guy who always runs a Black Legion force and always puts Abaddon and a ton of terminators into your deployment zone turn 1. Many just don't play him. I can't blame them.

BUT.... His alpha strike is 600+ points. In a 1500 point list, that needs to include a Core and an Auxiliary choice to be legal. To say his Black Legion are a little short on boots on the ground is an understatement. It's hellishly easy to just sacrifice a unit to the Bringers of Despair and then go and table his army. It's also just as easy for Abaddon and co to rip your army to bloody tatters. Which I'm cool with; it's Abaddon and Chaos-tainted Justaerin after all.

So, yeah, I'm cool with it.

Using Slaanesh warlord trait for run and charge with unit on seekers taken from seeker cavalcade has let me do this a fairly good amount of times and it has let me decide a match pretty early on.

12 inch movement + (d6 run + 6in for MoS on calv + 6 inch from formation) + charge range and set at front of deployment, unit literally can charge anything on the board. And having fleet even adds onto this.

And that would be a shining example of why I went back to 3rd Edition.