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With that formation could I just deploy my droppods on my side of the table on the first turn and use the four special rules?

Everyone needs to start in DS reserves, so you can’t just deploy on the table and drop the pods empty.

Nothing stopping you from landing the pods in your own backfield turn one though.

That's what I meant...as I read that against tau and eldar(or some other armies for that matter) depending on what they are fielding, it is pretty dumb to throw ur droppods right in their faces. I bought 2 droppods and is currently converting 10 assault marines and will be doing a 10 man assault squad...so for now I will only be able to run 5 man squads.

KINGPIN54 wrote:
That's what I meant...as I read that against tau and eldar(or some other armies for that matter) depending on what they are fielding, it is pretty dumb to throw ur droppods right in their faces. I bought 2 droppods and is currently converting 10 assault marines and will be doing a 10 man assault squad...so for now I will only be able to run 5 man squads.

My view is different. I think this formation is the ultimate alpha strike force in the whole game. And it is a great formation to deliver your Grav Cannons and Multi Meltas to where you need them.

True it is bad when facing something like Tau army spamming EWOs. But against Eldar, aside from using White Scar Full Battle Company Gladius, lauching an overwhelming alpha strike crushing them might be the only chance to put up a fight against them, or once they run away and shoot at you from 36inches away you are never gonna to catch them up.

I think this formation is good in bringing some units that were thought garbage up to decently strong level. It thus have some significant problem though, like can be countered hard by intensed interceptors and enemy null deployment (i.e. most notably is Eldar player placing only 5 units of Warp Spiders on table and reserve everything else), but that is mainly due to the nature of lauching an alpha strike. If your playing style is alpha strike, this is the formation you want.

I will definitely be full alphastrike with them...but was not sure whether when the occasion arises if I was allowed to drop them on my backyard and just take benefit From the special rules. As my force will not be at full capacity I will have to box clever till I have more models. Just the fact that my assault Marines get to use jump packs in movement and assault will help a lot.

The skyhammer force has been pigonholed due to spam/abusers. It is true that it is one of the best formations in the game/space marine army, but its utility is often ignored.

It does not need an Alpha strike nor a grav/melta transport. Hell many people just take 5 assault marines stock because they think its a tax.

I play it differently. I almost always drop them in turn 2. I take 2 full 10 man squads of devestators give them all heavy bolters and sergeants with auspex (or a storm bolter!) and/or maybe special weapons.
Based on circumstance, I'll keep that as one squad or I'll combat squad them, into two, five-man squads with two heavy bolters each.
This gives me a flexible hard hitting and lots of dakka two vanguard squads, who can be anywhere I need them to be, have relentless and cause extra pinning shenanigans to cripple an enemy squad or two for a round.

I don't always take 10 man assault squads (point heavy) unless I'm feeling sassy. Give them an eviscerator and/or two flamers (always take the meltabombs! 5pts to threaten any unit in the game!!!). Drop them either to support your new gunstations for the extra damage/synergy or have them attack more situationally valuable targets.

The main point I am saying is, you can do far more with that formation than people ever do. It is more than just a gravcannon and multimelta platform, but to be frank, there are units which do those rolls overall better (command squads with grav guns and centurions) who don't pay any tax.

You lost me at heavy bolters. That's a very poor way to use skyhammer. They just don't do enough damage.

Martel732 wrote:
You lost me at heavy bolters. That's a very poor way to use skyhammer. They just don't do enough damage.

Heavy bolters are a fantastic weapon as long as your not fighting MEQ or TEQ. Even against marines, you're going to be wounding quite a bit with 3 shots of S5. I cannot tell you how many times, I make Eldar bikes Jink, force Necron warriors, Scouts Stormtroopers to goto ground or just delete guardsmen or gaunts. I'm also very much a fan of overwhelming firepower, and throwing12 S5 AP4 shots, plus 5-10 more boltguns often with rerolls of 1 is very annoying to any opponent.

The opposite is true. The heavy bolter is a terrible weapon in 7th. Even against its optimal targets. A bs 4 heavy bolter kills 1.33 orks, and this dips to a miserable .89 orks if they have cover. In fact, any 4+ armor unit can get back 2/3 of their save with any kind of cover.

S5 is one short of being able to join in the hull point glancing fest of s6/7.

Eldar bikes have no reason to jink vs heavy bolters. That's one of my problems with windriders.

Also, 12 shots is nowhere near overwhelming firepower. Not when eldar are spitting 80 str 6 shots from their troops.

I've had pretty good success in my local scene running a Double Skyhammer Annihilation Force list. Max out all squads in both formations and combat squading everything helps some against Tau Intercepter spam. Against Null deployment if I'm second, I drop the weaker formation first on objectives. If I'm first I just play to the objectives. I've been running 8 Grav Cannons, 4 Multimeltas, and 4 Heavy Bolters for Orks, Daemons, Guardsmen and the like. Melta Bombs on all the Assault Sergeants and 2 of them have Power fists and the Assault Marines have 2 Flamers each squad. Star Phantoms tactics really help in making the list deadlier from the Devastator squads.

Run them as RG. turn 1 deep strike the assault marines first as close as possible to get a charge off turn 1. Drop the pods next to them and place the dev marines with no weapons in front of the assault marines.

Now with the likelyhood of getting night fighting turn one on a 3+ with RG your assault marines will have 2+ cover from interceptor. dev units will have 4+ cover in the open.

against Tau you shoot any dev units left at the big stuff to stop them overwatching and charge over the top of the dev unit with airbourne assault with rerolls to charge because you a RG let alone the skyhammer rules.

 rawne2510 wrote:
Run them as RG. turn 1 deep strike the assault marines first as close as possible to get a charge off turn 1. Drop the pods next to them and place the dev marines with no weapons in front of the assault marines.

Now with the likelyhood of getting night fighting turn one on a 3+ with RG your assault marines will have 2+ cover from interceptor. dev units will have 4+ cover in the open.

against Tau you shoot any dev units left at the big stuff to stop them overwatching and charge over the top of the dev unit with airbourne assault with rerolls to charge because you a RG let alone the skyhammer rules.

Devs won't get shrouded because they started in a transport.

Martel732 wrote:
The opposite is true. The heavy bolter is a terrible weapon in 7th. Even against its optimal targets. A bs 4 heavy bolter kills 1.33 orks, and this dips to a miserable .89 orks if they have cover. In fact, any 4+ armor unit can get back 2/3 of their save with any kind of cover.

S5 is one short of being able to join in the hull point glancing fest of s6/7.

Eldar bikes have no reason to jink vs heavy bolters. That's one of my problems with windriders.

Also, 12 shots is nowhere near overwhelming firepower. Not when eldar are spitting 80 str 6 shots from their troops.

Hey to each their own, all I can tell you, is Heavy bolters work wonders in my gaming group and local store. I suppose if your gaming group you don't fight many medium and light infantry they won't do much for you. 3 S5 AP4 shots for 10 points I think is fine. And I have lots of success at S5 rear shooting vehicles. It's probably my favorite surprise kill. Running guants with FC or Space marines throwing heavy bolters and a krak grenade at rear armor is tactically sound (though situational). But yes 12 heavy bolter shots plus 10 boltgun shots is not "overwhelming firepower" I meant it less precisely and more subjective due to doubling the firepower a squad. But yes, they would be better if they were S6, but I find their point costs, long range and good AP very useful. They work well for my playstyle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PanzerLeader wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
Run them as RG. turn 1 deep strike the assault marines first as close as possible to get a charge off turn 1. Drop the pods next to them and place the dev marines with no weapons in front of the assault marines.

Now with the likelyhood of getting night fighting turn one on a 3+ with RG your assault marines will have 2+ cover from interceptor. dev units will have 4+ cover in the open.

against Tau you shoot any dev units left at the big stuff to stop them overwatching and charge over the top of the dev unit with airbourne assault with rerolls to charge because you a RG let alone the skyhammer rules.

Devs won't get shrouded because they started in a transport.

I may have been playing this wrong this whole time, but doesn't night fighting confer all models on the board stealth till the beginning of turn two? Including those in transports and deepstrike and whatnot. I'll look it up later today when I get home to double check the wording.

Night fighting does but I forgot that the devs won´t get shrouded as they were in the drop pod. My bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Its a raven guard chapter tactic. The idea being that the dangerous unit would be the one that gets to charge turn one (the assault marines). the devs intervening model 5+ cover then add shrouded and night fighting means the assault marines would get 2+ cover against intercepor fire shooting through the dev squad.

 Tsol wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The opposite is true. The heavy bolter is a terrible weapon in 7th. Even against its optimal targets. A bs 4 heavy bolter kills 1.33 orks, and this dips to a miserable .89 orks if they have cover. In fact, any 4+ armor unit can get back 2/3 of their save with any kind of cover.

S5 is one short of being able to join in the hull point glancing fest of s6/7.

Eldar bikes have no reason to jink vs heavy bolters. That's one of my problems with windriders.

Also, 12 shots is nowhere near overwhelming firepower. Not when eldar are spitting 80 str 6 shots from their troops.

Hey to each their own, all I can tell you, is Heavy bolters work wonders in my gaming group and local store. I suppose if your gaming group you don't fight many medium and light infantry they won't do much for you. 3 S5 AP4 shots for 10 points I think is fine. And I have lots of success at S5 rear shooting vehicles. It's probably my favorite surprise kill. Running guants with FC or Space marines throwing heavy bolters and a krak grenade at rear armor is tactically sound (though situational). But yes 12 heavy bolter shots plus 10 boltgun shots is not "overwhelming firepower" I meant it less precisely and more subjective due to doubling the firepower a squad. But yes, they would be better if they were S6, but I find their point costs, long range and good AP very useful. They work well for my playstyle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PanzerLeader wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
Run them as RG. turn 1 deep strike the assault marines first as close as possible to get a charge off turn 1. Drop the pods next to them and place the dev marines with no weapons in front of the assault marines.

Now with the likelyhood of getting night fighting turn one on a 3+ with RG your assault marines will have 2+ cover from interceptor. dev units will have 4+ cover in the open.

against Tau you shoot any dev units left at the big stuff to stop them overwatching and charge over the top of the dev unit with airbourne assault with rerolls to charge because you a RG let alone the skyhammer rules.

Devs won't get shrouded because they started in a transport.

I may have been playing this wrong this whole time, but doesn't night fighting confer all models on the board stealth till the beginning of turn two? Including those in transports and deepstrike and whatnot. I'll look it up later today when I get home to double check the wording.

I've watched battle reports online where heavy bolters have been great against Tau. Full Dev squads with heavy bolters combat squaded, and aiming them at big nasties. The big nasties have a chance to be pinned by the bolters, which in turn leads to the assault squads getting in and roughing/holding them up in combat due to being unable to overwatch due to being pinned.

pinned or not units can´t fire overwatch once targeted by a dev squad from skyhammer formation.

If you just want that effect, I guess heavy bolters are fine. If you actually want to remove models, they aren't. You wont' dent a big suit with heavy bolters.

You also won´t dent any daemons with grav. Your grav will likely get removed by tau though so burn 25 points per model for something that is likely to get removed is wasteful.

Demons are a massive problem for grav. And heavy interceptor is largely a disaster for skyhammer in general. However, with heavy bolters, they will likely target the ASM, but with grav they have to choose.

That is why against Tau I would drop them in turn 2 so that the rest of my force is there ready to be a charge issue.

Really nee to figure out how to get a skyhammer formation to work with my talon strike force with SSKT.

That's an even better reason to use grav, though.

in an 1850 list with the need for SSKT, Demi Coy, Skyhammer and Inq grav will proably be bare bones because of lack of points.

I love grav weapons, but due to their huge costs (rightfully so) I only take them when I suspsect I'll be fighting lots of MCs GMCs or lots of TEQs.

This is obviously not a good solution to everyone because I have... more models than most... But If intend to take nearly 300 points of grav weapons I'll either do it centurions or I'll take AdMech Allies.

But again, heavy bolters are not good for every situation, but they have always been useful for me, be it on Devs, a Tact squad or landspeeders. Though just to give you a better idea of my mindset, plasma is a great weapon. I never use it. Ever.

I have too many games where I have lost every plasma gun shot to self-destruction to the point I never take them anymore. My friends who I play with laugh and say I exaggerate, until they watch me take some and first turn every sargent and plasma gunner explodes. Then they no longer ask me why I don't take plasma.