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 Genoside07 wrote:
Having traveled to a number of locations in the states and world; some GW shops I've seem
are like a fashion boutique with nice set ups and lively staff.. while others seem like an adult day care.

That's awesome.

The best GW store I was ever in had a separate gaming alcove with 3 tables in it. The main store area had 2 tables set up for demo games at all times. And then a nice painting area sort of near the alcove. So the adult day care was relegated to the one side.

It was closed and replaced with a much smaller single employee store with one table for demos only when they decided that was a better idea. Given that the word of the day was cost cutting, I'm guessing the larger square footage was the main issue that caused that.

 Genoside07 wrote:
I agree with most views on this... Does Games Workshop even audit their stores??
You would think there would be a written standard of operations with so many out there.
Having traveled to a number of locations in the states and world; some GW shops I've seem
are like a fashion boutique with nice set ups and lively staff.. while others seem like an adult day care.

They are absolutely audited, in typical GW style of course. I'm not sure if they still do this, but many years in the past GW upper management would routinely "Virus bomb" problem stores and clear out the offending staff members in one fell swoop.

Popped into the WH store yesterday afternoon to pick up some Inq models I had ordered. Bunch of Shadow War being played. New customers wandering around looking at the games and the products. Kids I hadn't ever met were excited to show me their KT lists and ask what I had ordered. Very fun atmosphere. I feel sorry for folks stuck with dysfunctional WH stores.

 Manchu wrote:
Popped into the WH store yesterday afternoon to pick up some Inq models I had ordered. Bunch of Shadow War being played. New customers wandering around looking at the games and the products. Kids I hadn't ever met were excited to show me their KT lists and ask what I had ordered. Very fun atmosphere. I feel sorry for folks stuck with dysfunctional WH stores.

Popped into the independent store yesterday afternoon to pick up some Inq models I had ordered. Bunch of Shadow War being played. New customers wandering around looking at the games and the products. Kids I hadn't ever met were excited to show me their KT lists and ask what I had ordered. Very fun atmosphere. I feel sorry for folks stuck with dysfunctional independent stores.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The point I'm highlighting here is that when a GW store does something that's better than an independent store you credit it to GW's policies about recruiting new customers and the weakness of the independent store business model at doing the same, but when a GW store does something worse than an independent store it's just an isolated incident and how unfortunate that some people have dysfunctional GW stores. It's great that you have a GW store that you like in your area, but the good things about it are not the consistent result of GW policies or any kind of inherent advantage over independent stores.

Ruin wrote:

 Genoside07 wrote:
I agree with most views on this... Does Games Workshop even audit their stores??
You would think there would be a written standard of operations with so many out there.
Having traveled to a number of locations in the states and world; some GW shops I've seem
are like a fashion boutique with nice set ups and lively staff.. while others seem like an adult day care.

They are absolutely audited, in typical GW style of course. I'm not sure if they still do this, but many years in the past GW upper management would routinely "Virus bomb" problem stores and clear out the offending staff members in one fell swoop.

Doesn't happen any more. No regional managers, so if a store is hitting its targets it's left alone. If it isn't a trainer goes in to help support the manager. If it still isn't then it might be suggested that they choose to step aside.

@Peregrine

A WH store where established players cannot enjoy a game because the manager is relentlessly prying every cent out of their bank accounts is dysfunctional. As for what is dysfunctional at a LGS - you have to have SOPs before you can even talk about failing to effectively implement them.

For example, I drove across town yesterday to buy some terrain for Shadow War from the LGS. Three employees were working that day. Not one of them spoke to me when I came in or while I was browsing. When I got up to the register, only one was in sight and he was waiting on a MtG player buying cheap singles from a dozen different set binders. I stood there for five minutes - clerk did not even acknowledge me, much less summon one of the two other people on payroll present that day to take my money. Some friends were playing Bolt Action nearby so I wandered off to hang out with them while the clerk showed that kid every card WotC had printed in the last three years. Thirty minutes later, I went back to the register. No one was there. I waited around, chatting with a friend for about 15 more minutes. Still none of the three employees came to the counter. Finally I just stared right at one of them, off at the painting table working on his models, until he clued in and waddled over to do his actual job. By this time, I had dropped the idea of buying anything from them other than the cheapest item, and then only to spend my credit from their back end discount program. This would be an example of "value subtracted" in contrast to the "value added" concept retailers need to establish in an era of online discounts.

Send that post to the owner of the store. Right away.

Already done. Response was: "sorry" - the end. Problem is, LGS has co-op model, all employees are owners. So this is how the owners run their business ...

I'm just going to say something.

My local GW is a 30-45 minute bus ride away. I don't mind making this 1-2 times a month. Most of the stuff I'd be buying is online only (inquisitors, basilisks, special characters) so I used to order it to the store and go to pick it up. Until I learned that this doesn't count towards the sales stores. I can't really justify 90 minutes on the bus just to order something and then another 90 to pick it up. Therefore I haven't really ordered anything recently. I like the store but all of what I order is either forgeworld or collection items (I really can't help fell guilty collecting that stuff).

There's a really easy fix to this. Just make collections count towards sales and let people do the same with forgeworld.

That's a good demonstration of why the policy is what it is. If the sole reason you have to visit the WH store is to pick up web orders then that store is not serving you - which is exactly why the store doesn't get credit for the sale. But if the free shipping to the store gets you through the door, that store manager now has an opportunity to create a positive customer experience for you - to add some value to your experience such that you want to visit regularly and can therefore make in-store orders ... in which case, the store is actually serving you and gets credit for doing so.

The real problem with this in-store/webstore order dichotomy is that the webstore has advantages (e.g., inventory volatility) over the reatil locations - however, this only applies to existing customers, who are not the focus of WH stores anyhow.

As for the whole great GW vs crappy independent store thing, I think that's entirely idiosyncratic to the individual stores and managers. Like 100%.

GW's "hands off as long as you hit your sales numbers" approach is pretty much creating the same variance as the independent stores being all owned by different people. Seems to me that the experience at a given store for GW is now as varied as for locally owned game stores.

I travel across Canada for work and when I check out local stores, I find no real consistency anymore. I've been to about half of the GW stores in Canada over the last couple of years.

They tend to be in higher visibility areas than I hear about in the US though. Edmonton's for example, is still in a huge shopping centre (West Edmonton Mall). Winnipeg is in a strip mall facing the parking lot of one of the most popular malls in that city (St Vitale or something?). Victoria is in a corner spot on one of the highest foot traffic streets near downtown. The vast majority are still in high visibility mall locations. Eaton Centre in Montreal, Halifax Mall in Halifax, Chinook Centre in Calgary and so on. There are a handful in Ontario though that are trying out the middle of nowhere strip mall approach like they do in the US in many areas. The nature of being in a mall does offer some consistency but the ones I've visited in little strip mall locations seem to have the highest variance in local policies. Some have no gaming in the store at all, some have open tables all the time, some only have gaming and painting space for those who enroll in their getting started classes (and those seem to be scheduled right after school ends). Some have branded GW tables clad with professional looking side walls, others have grey costco folding tables. Some are painted only, some are filled with grey hordes.

GW does not have a 100% hands off policy. That is pure nonsense.

There was a period between those two sentences The 100% thing was about the sentence before, not the one that followed.

As in which stores (independent vs GW) will be crappy will be 100% based on the individual nature of the people running each.

GW does not have a 100% or 50% or 25% hands off policy. The only thing the WH store manager appears to have any discretion over is day-to-day table use, after accounting for the universal rules for table use (X number of tables, hobby demo space required, GW games only, etc). So it's more like GW has a 1% hands off policy.

Still stuck on that percentage thing I see.

Later.

Just putting your hyperbole into perspective.

I have played in a handful of FLGS stores, but only one GW store.

It was during today's era of the one man store. I arranged for a game from a Dakka Dakka player. I was new to the area and wanted a game. The player was friendly enough. I only took my painted gak, including a Forge World Contemptor and some old school rhinos. My opponent was playing all Sisters of Battle, models at the time that were direct only. Obviously, neither of us had offered much to the GW Store's bottom line in recent history with these specific armies.

There were 2 tables you could game on. One 40k and 1 AoS. There were 4 guys around a hobby table shooting the gak and painting. I asked if we could play, the manager said go ahead, and we played. Customers passed through, along with the hobby guys, we BS'ed a bit during the game. About 1.5 hours in, the manager says "Ok boys, time for lunch"".

Everyone stopped what they were doing and headed for the door. "Wha?" "It's his lunch break. We have to leave for 30 minutes." I had heard on the interwebs at this was a thing that existed; however, I had never seen this during any of my CCG days where I was in an LGS nearly every weekend in college. So I filed out with everyone else, walked over to subway, and then watched the store for it to open. My models have never been that out of my control before. Some kid walks in before I get there and breaks something? Takes something? feth that. Never again.

We finished the game after the break, I bought the new tactical squad box that had the grav guns, and I haven't been back. The manager could have looked at our armies, been a prick and told us we couldn't play, but he didn't. No one was using them, and we didn't come in demanding anything. +1 in my book.

Their stupid "everyone out, I need to take a dump/eat/call my side chick?" -5 in my book. Would not feth.

 Manchu wrote:
Just putting your hyperbole into perspective.

Doubling down on a reading comprehension error is hilarious. I added a line break so no one else well get as easily confused.

And yeah, if a store manager can put folding plastic grey tables from costco in a corporate owned retail location, they have a high degree of freedom. Decor in a chain store is usually one of the most controlled aspects of retail.

I get it though. You are a believer that every GW store is a grand place of clean people and great staff and non-GW stores are full of rude stinky people who hate you or won't even speak to you. My apologies for challenging your religious beliefs.

And yes, I should have just unscubscribed from this thread after saying later. My apologies.

@froxenwastes

You have consistently exaggerated the amount of discretion WH store managers have as the premise for absurdly equating WH stores with LGS in terms of variety of experience. This isn't even the first time I have called you out on it ITT.

And now you are pretending I am arguing from a"reading comprehension error" (a reference to percentages in a post you edited after I responded to it) while at the same time acknowledging that you know there is no reading comprehension error by responding to my actual argument.

Just going to ignore the rest of your bad faith post.

@Kronk

Agree with your assessment. The LGS is far better suited to hosting existing gamers. Best and rarest of all is privately hosted local gaming club of friends.

 Bookwrack wrote:
Yes. Ordering from the in-store kiosk online counts as a sale for the store. That's why you can pay for what you order online at the register in store. I do it frequently because my local GW is an awesome store with an amazing manager so I want to support it.

The fact that you can't order from home and ship to the store and have that count is a dumb policy, but fits into the thinking for Kirby-era GW. 'If they have to go to the store to do it....' It'd be nice if it changed.

I'd prefer the other way round tbh. I rarely visit my nearest GW except when I'm going to that town anyway on other business. It'd be more convenient if I could order something in-store (so it registers as a sale and helps them out) on the rare occasions that I visit and have it shipped to my home. Can you do that currently? Can't recall, it's been at least a year since I visited.

Having to visit the store a second time to collect my order is inconvenient.

Yes you can do that - the issue is, you will be charged shipping if your order does not meet the free shipping threshold.

I normally order online anyway.

Games Workshop stores could be so much more.. But if the local FLGS has a better stock than the actual GW store
there is a problem. There is to much competition for them to have the same product as everyone else and expect to compete.
If I walk into a GW looking to buy a certain item that was released in the past few months and they don't have it in stock
that is a major problem.

They also do the limited edition models for new stores where you have to buy so much product or
participate in events to gain points to just buy the model..Just make it available and sale as many as you can...
Plus making Forge World more acceptable to the stores, just something to draw in customers.
Maybe come up with a small printer in your stores that can print names on the side of bases... I would pay
a dollar a base to be able to go to the store put the miniature in and it prints on the side of the base.

Just something special, right now they have only the personality of the clerk to bring in business to the store.. not much else
Hence this thread.. people see how each shop tends to have its own methods of dealing with things.

 kronk wrote:
I have played in a handful of FLGS stores, but only one GW store.

It was during today's era of the one man store. I arranged for a game from a Dakka Dakka player. I was new to the area and wanted a game. The player was friendly enough. I only took my painted gak, including a Forge World Contemptor and some old school rhinos. My opponent was playing all Sisters of Battle, models at the time that were direct only. Obviously, neither of us had offered much to the GW Store's bottom line in recent history with these specific armies.

There were 2 tables you could game on. One 40k and 1 AoS. There were 4 guys around a hobby table shooting the gak and painting. I asked if we could play, the manager said go ahead, and we played. Customers passed through, along with the hobby guys, we BS'ed a bit during the game. About 1.5 hours in, the manager says "Ok boys, time for lunch"".

Everyone stopped what they were doing and headed for the door. "Wha?" "It's his lunch break. We have to leave for 30 minutes." I had heard on the interwebs at this was a thing that existed; however, I had never seen this during any of my CCG days where I was in an LGS nearly every weekend in college. So I filed out with everyone else, walked over to subway, and then watched the store for it to open. My models have never been that out of my control before. Some kid walks in before I get there and breaks something? Takes something? feth that. Never again.

We finished the game after the break, I bought the new tactical squad box that had the grav guns, and I haven't been back. The manager could have looked at our armies, been a prick and told us we couldn't play, but he didn't. No one was using them, and we didn't come in demanding anything. +1 in my book.

Their stupid "everyone out, I need to take a dump/eat/call my side chick?" -5 in my book. Would not feth.

I've been to two GWs that do this. Didn't really care a whole lot because I was always the first one back in the door and I trusted the managers.

The manager at the GW I go to now orders Thai food and has it delivered and almost always has his back-up guy in store if he has to leave for a couple minutes.

 Manchu wrote:
@froxenwastes

You have consistently exaggerated the amount of discretion WH store managers have as the premise for absurdly equating WH stores with LGS in terms of variety of experience. This isn't even the first time I have called you out on it ITT.

And now you are pretending I am arguing from a"reading comprehension error" (a reference to percentages in a post you edited after I responded to it) while at the same time acknowledging that you know there is no reading comprehension error by responding to my actual argument.

Just going to ignore the rest of your bad faith post.

@Kronk

Agree with your assessment. The LGS is far better suited to hosting existing gamers. Best and rarest of all is privately hosted local gaming club of friends.

When I was a GW store manager, we had an incredible amount of freedom... so long as we were hitting our numbers. If we weren't hitting our numbers, the expectation was that our store had better be exactly run per policy.

Essentially, if I put out a small fold up table to highlight the "Army of the Month" in an effort to sell more models and it worked, my boss would just give me a thumbs up and spend his time at other stores that weren't hitting numbers. If I put out a small fold up table and didn't hit my numbers... well, it was probably because I wasn't following policy. Policy compliance was very inconsistently enforced and it was almost entirely dependent on your sales numbers.

My store, incidentally, had 3x 4'x6' gaming tables and a single 4'x4' demo table. There was also a paint bar that could easily seat 6 people... 8-10 if they squished in. The demo table was for me to show off the games and was divided into three 2'x2' demo stations as well as one demo paint station. The store was open 5 days a week with two days dedicated to veterans, two days dedicated to new players and one day dedicated to store events. Anybody could come in on any day, but setting a clear expectation worked well for me.

What that all means is that I believe my store catered well to both new and veteran hobbyists and gamers. Our local gaming store has a dirty game room with too narrow tables around the corner from the actual store. There is no terrain on hand for player use.

In my little world, the GW store was infinitely better at supporting both new and veteran players than the LGS was. That's not going to be the case everywhere.

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

I must admit I was really spoilt for choice in my old home town - the LGS actually opened up a new store just a few doors down from the local GW.

It was a shame that the local GW seemed to have an odd policy towards new players, I arranged to come in to demo a game of 40k when I wanted to get back into the game. I expected to maybe do a short game but using the models they had out on display on a real of battle board from the starter kits.

Instead I got a 10 minute demo using a bunch of barely painted models the manager got out from some random box, plus every time a customer came in he had to go see if they needed help so we stopped and started every few minutes.

Put me off 40k sadly, never went back to the GW especially as I just walked down the road to the LGS and got a demo of infinity from one of the local players after having a nice chat with the manager. Walked out with an entire 300pt Nomad army so paid off for them too

@Kriswall

I think you also referenced this as 6-7 years ago. In that same timeframe, there was a GW store local to me very similar to what you describe. GW closed it down. The WH store opened last summer. The WH store is only equipped with two 4x6 tables as well as three 2x4 tables, which are generally configured as a 4x6 (although we disassemble it to play SWA on a 4x4). Two of the 4x6 tables are set up for gaming and the third must remain clear for hobby demonstrations (building and/or painting a free SM or Stormcast). The shelves are stocked strictly according to central policy. On a weekly basis, the manager receives instructions on what goes where (regular stock separated by brand, new release areas, last chance to buy area, etc). There is a demo display at the front of the store, along the front of the register.

There simply is not enough space to support a community of existing gamers on the level of the LGS. The LGS may not be good for engaging with customers but it does provide about 8-10 4x6 tables for miniatures gaming in addition to even more space for hobby work and other types of games.

 Manchu wrote:
I think you also referenced this as 6-7 years ago. In that same timeframe, there was a GW store local to me very similar to what you describe. GW closed it down. The WH store opened last summer. The WH store is only equipped with two 4x6 tables as well as three 2x4 tables, which are generally configured as a 4x6 (although we disassemble it to play SWA on a 4x4). Two of the 4x6 tables are set up for gaming and the third must remain clear for hobby demonstrations (building and/or painting a free SM or Stormcast). The shelves are stocked strictly according to central policy. On a weekly basis, the manager receives instructions on what goes where (regular stock separated by brand, new release areas, last chance to buy area, etc). There is a demo display at the front of the store, along the front of the register.

There simply is not enough space to support a community of existing gamers on the level of the LGS. The LGS may not be good for engaging with customers but it does provide about 8-10 4x6 tables for miniatures gaming in addition to even more space for hobby work and other types of games.

My local LGS has zero 4'x6' tables. In my microcosm, the LGS is horrible for supporting anyone.

We have one like that, too. In the days of yore, it had plenty of space for miniatures gaming - but the owner felt betrayed when the first local GW store opened and gradually phased out all miniatures gaming stock. The store now has skinny tables suitable for MtG and board gaming but zero space for miniatures gaming.

That said, even if it was our only LGS the WH store would still be no better than it currently is at supporting established gamers. Very little space is better than no space but that does not make it adequate.

 Manchu wrote:
We have one like that, too. In the days of yore, it had plenty of space for miniatures gaming - but the owner felt betrayed when the first local GW store opened and gradually phased out all miniatures gaming stock. The store now has skinny tables suitable for MtG and board gaming but zero space for miniatures gaming.

That said, even if it was our only LGS the WH store would still be no better than it currently is at supporting established gamers. Very little space is better than no space but that does not make it adequate.

Still makes it better. If the alternative to 'very little space' is 'no space', you pick the store with very little space or you deal with not having a local community. Playing at home is always an option, but then you tend to lock your group down to a handful of people you know well.