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GodDamUser wrote: Oh is this another lets see how many pages we get till the thread is locked?
I simply read the rules and argue based on what the rules actually say and not on what I want them to say.
Arguments that are based purely on the Rules As Written aren't always popular and often elicit a knee-jerk response from others.
So lots of pages of back-and-forth can be used up by the action of me simply pointing to others where their counter arguments aren't supported by any rules or aren't in accordance with what they rules actually say.
If people paused and checked thoroughly on what the rules actually say before posting on any given thread then a lot of back-and-forth could be spared.
You are just reading the rules incorrectly though.
It's why you are always the only person to be on your side of the argument. You're the one at fault
Feel free to point out any shortcomings in my argument. You can't just say 'you are just reading the rules incorrectly'.
You need to provide proof with rules citations or at least a compelling well-thought out argument. I am open to anything educated and substantiated you have to say about my argument.
A rules debate is not a popularity contest. The correct answer is not necessarily going to be the popular answer. In fact, since people tend to gang up on things they view as OP and tend to have uneducated opinions, the correct Rules As Writtten argument is often unpopular.
A person who is more concerned with popularity than with truth shouldn't be debating rules or acting as a judge with regards to the rules. Educated truth is more important than uneducated opinion.
I am open to anything educated and substantiated you have to offer on the issue at hand.
Ceann has already pointed out out the short comings of your argument
And i never said this was a popularity contest. But considering out of the 40-50 people who have argued against you in the last few years, NO ONE has ever agreed with you. If all you are doing is, as you put it, "simply reading the rules" wouldn't at least one person actually agree with you if you were indeed correct?
Captyn_Bob wrote: " when placing a unit in reserve , you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by deep strike"
So.. looks pretty clear.. you declare it, then you must do it. Otherwise you have just lied to your opponent.
Someone will probably now say there's no rule saying you can't lie to your opponent.
This is the crux of the matter.
The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.
Announcing is not levying a restriction.
Technically, the player still has the option of having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.
If a player exercises that option, that player isn't lying to the opponent. The player simply changed his or her mind and exercised his freedom to choose another option.
The key question to ask is this - if the player changes his mind and has his unit walk on the battlefield instead of Deep Striking (like he announced), did that player break any rule?
And i never said this was a popularity contest. But considering out of the 40-50 people who have argued against you in the last few years, NO ONE has ever agreed with you. If all you are doing is, as you put it, "simply reading the rules" wouldn't at least one person actually agree with you if you were indeed correct?
This is a game where people choose sides on rules debates to gain advantages for themselves and/or impose disadvantages on others.
Since I am not trying to gain any advantages or impose any disadvantages, but rather to simply get at the truth of the matter, it is not surprising that I will encounter people arguing against me as they seek to push an agenda over principles of truth.
The philosopher's voice is the minority voice in YMDC.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/04/27 06:29:19
CrownAxe wrote: What make you so special that you must be the only person who doesn't argue for a in game advantage?
If your argument was objectively correct some people would agree with you, it's that simple.
If you have a problem with the argument that I am presenting then feel free to point out what that is with support.
You seem to be going to great lengths to cast aspersions on what I am saying without actually providing a decent critique of my argument.
Veiled personal attacks are against the rules of this forum.
Like I said before, other people have made that argument for me, I don't need to waste time repeating the same argument at ad nauseam like what happens in\ every thread you show up in.
And I've made a logical assessment on why your argument is not objectively sound. How is that an insult?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/27 06:57:38
Like I said before, other people have made that argument for me, I don't need to waste time repeating the same argument at ad nauseam like what happens in\ every thread you show up in.
And I've made a logical assessment on why your argument is not objectively sound. How is that an insult?
Your logic is bad.
Your statement fails due to the logical fallacy of 'argumentum ad numeram'.
If my argument is wrong then prove its wrong. It's that simple.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/27 07:00:39
Like I said before, other people have made that argument for me, I don't need to waste time repeating the same argument at ad nauseam like what happens in\ every thread you show up in.
And I've made a logical assessment on why your argument is not objectively sound. How is that an insult?
Your logic is bad.
Your statement fails due to the logical fallacy of 'argumentum ad numeram'.
If my argument is wrong then prove its wrong. It's that simple.
That doesn't apply because i'm not claiming i'm right because most people agree with it. I'm claiming that your argument is not objectively correct because if it were any reasonable people would agree with it at all and you have 0 people agree with you. And it would a statistical anomaly for every single person you have argued with over the last several years to be so biased that not one would adhere to logic and reason.
You argument has be disproven multiple times in every thread
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/27 07:13:24
That doesn't apply because i'm not claiming i'm right because most people agree with it. I'm claiming that your argument is not objectively correct because if it were any reasonable people would agree with it at all and you have 0 people agree with you. And it would a statistical anomaly for every single person you have argued with over the last several years to be so biased that not one would adhere to logic and reason.
You argument has be disproven multiple times in every thread
Your statement is still suffering from the bad logic of 'argumentum ad numeram'.
And more importantly I am still waiting for you, or anyone, to actually disprove my argument.
If my argument is bad, as you say, then it should be easy to disprove.
Summary of argument
Spoiler:
The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.
For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.
Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.
When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.
Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.
The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.
Announcing is not levying a restriction.
Technically, the player still has the option of having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/27 07:25:54
CrownAxe wrote: We have disproved it but you are too delusional to realize it
In YMDC, you have to actually disprove my argument and not just claim I am delusional.
Why are you insisting on personally attacking me?
If my argument is wrong then prove it's wrong. It's that simple.
Summary of argument
Spoiler:
The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.
For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.
Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.
When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.
Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.
The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.
Announcing is not levying a restriction.
Technically, the player still has the option of having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/27 07:30:54
The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.
For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.
Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.
When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.
Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.
The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.
Announcing is not levying a restriction.
Technically, the player still has the option of having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/27 07:39:22
2017/04/27 07:39:20
Subject: Re:Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves
Well the rule for deep strike states that when placing the unit in reserve, you must tell your opponent that the
unit is arriving by deepstrike (assuming that is your plan at the start of the game).
I would say that since the rule specifically has you state the method of entry that you will be using then you have to keep to this choice, the same way you cant just change your list after the game starts. (if the rule simply told you state if they start in deepstrike reserve or not, it would be more open to interpretation: "hey, I said they were in deepstrike reserve, I never said they were actually going to deepstrike".
So in the same way you cant tell your opponent that your captain has a combi-melta and then change it to a combi-plasma mid game, you cannot claim a unit to be deepstriking onto the board prior to the game, then have them walk on midgame. I am pretty sure that lying to your opponent about your army is cheating, and since you have to tell your opponent what units are coming in via deepstrike etc., changing that is akin to changing anything else about your list.
Chaos undivided: 8300, Tau empire: 5600, Ork speed freaks: 1750
2017/04/27 07:41:00
Subject: Re:Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves
hippyjr wrote: Well the rule for deep strike states that when placing the unit in reserve, you must tell your opponent that the
unit is arriving by deepstrike (assuming that is your plan at the start of the game).
I would say that since the rule specifically has you state the method of entry that you will be using then you have to keep to this choice, the same way you cant just change your list after the game starts. (if the rule simply told you state if they start in deepstrike reserve or not, it would be more open to interpretation: "hey, I said they were in deepstrike reserve, I never said they were actually going to deepstrike".
So in the same way you cant tell your opponent that your captain has a combi-melta and then change it to a combi-plasma mid game, you cannot claim a unit to be deepstriking onto the board prior to the game, then have them walk on midgame. I am pretty sure that lying to your opponent about your army is cheating, and since you have to tell your opponent what units are coming in via deepstrike etc., changing that is akin to changing anything else about your list.
Thanks for your input, hippyjr.
This is the crux of the matter.
The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike in order to enable the unit 'to be able to Deep Strike', but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.
Announcing is not levying a restriction. Announcing is done to simply enable the unit 'to be able to Deep Strike'.
Technically, the player still has the option of having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.
If a player exercises that option, that player isn't lying to the opponent. The player simply changed his or her mind and exercised his freedom to choose another option.
The key question to ask is this - if the player changes his mind and has his unit walk on the battlefield instead of Deep Striking (like he announced), did that player break any rule?
No. No, he did not.
Summary of argument
Spoiler:
The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.
For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.
Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.
When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.
Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.
The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.
Announcing is not levying a restriction.
Technically, the player still has the option of having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/27 07:48:24
The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.
For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.
Outflank During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.
When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.
Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.
The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.
Announcing is not levying a restriction.
Technically, the player still has the option of having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.
Dude none of what your argument is actually disproves Ceann, you just delusionally believe you do
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/27 07:47:20
Announcing is levying a restriction.
When the rules force you to declare something(which is pretty rare) you are expected to do what you declare.
This is basic social contract.
You don't need the rules to tell you that lying to your opponent is not allowed , any more than you need a rule to tell you not to cheat.
Dude none of what your argument is actually disproves Ceann, you just delusionally believe you do
If my argument is wrong then prove me wrong. It's that simple.
Are you not intellectually up to the task?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Captyn_Bob wrote: Announcing is levying a restriction.
When the rules force you to declare something(which is pretty rare) you are expected to do what you declare.
This is basic social contract.
You don't need the rules to tell you that lying to your opponent is not allowed , any more than you need a rule to tell you not to cheat.
It's odd that you bring accusations of lying and cheating against an opponent who simply changes his mind and exercises the freedom of options the rules legitimately give him.
The player simply announces again that "this unit is no longer Deep Striking and will walk on the battlefield instead". There you go. No lying. No cheating. Remember, the only thing the announcing was accomplishing was enabling the unit 'to be able to Deep Strike' and not locking the unit into Deep Striking. Outflank locks the unit into outflanking. Deep Strike does not.
At this point since you have outrageously called upon John Locke to make your argument, you are tacitly agreeing that there is indeed no rule in place in 40k requiring the player to Deep Strike. The player can simply legitimately claim the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves instead.
Summary of argument
Spoiler:
The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.
For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.
Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.
When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.
Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.
The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.
Announcing is not levying a restriction.
Technically, the player still has the option of having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2017/04/27 08:08:16
Dude none of what your argument is actually disproves Ceann, you just delusionally believe you do
If my argument is wrong then prove me wrong. It's that simple.
Are you not intellectually up to the task?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Captyn_Bob wrote: Announcing is levying a restriction.
When the rules force you to declare something(which is pretty rare) you are expected to do what you declare.
This is basic social contract.
You don't need the rules to tell you that lying to your opponent is not allowed , any more than you need a rule to tell you not to cheat.
It's odd that you bring accusations of lying and cheating against an opponent who simply changes his mind and exercises the freedom of options the rules legitimately give him.
The player simply announces again that "this unit is no longer Deep Striking and will walk on the battlefield instead". There you go. No lying. No cheating. Remember, the only thing the announcing was accomplishing was enabling the unit 'to be able to Deep Strike' and not locking the unit into Deep Striking. Outflank locks the unit into outflanking. Deep Strike does not.
At this point since you have outrageously called upon John Locke to make your argument, you are tacitly agreeing that there is indeed no rule in place in 40k requiring the player to Deep Strike. The player can simply legitimately claim the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves instead.
Summary of argument
Spoiler:
The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.
For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.
Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.
When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.
Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.
The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.
Announcing is not levying a restriction.
Technically, the player still has the option of having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.
I'm afraid I find your stance, that being forced to declare something and then not doing what you declare is within the rules, nonsensical.
I won't be debating further.
I'd advise others against arguing for arguments sake it's been making YMDC pretty crazy of late.
I'm afraid I find your stance, that being forced to declare something and then not doing what you declare is within the rules, nonsensical.
I won't be debating further.
I'd advise others against arguing for arguments sake it's been making YMDC pretty crazy of late.
So when you are tasked with providing a rule you fail to provide a rule and then proclaim YMDC crazy. That's another veiled personal attack.
If my argument is wrong then prove me wrong. It's that simple.
There is no rule locking the unit into Deep Striking. The announcement during deployment that enabled the unit to be able to Deep Strike is simply ammended when it comes time to roll for Reserves. The rules for Deep Strike (and not Outflank) keep the option open for the unit to choose instead to walk on the battlefield from Reserves.
Summary of argument
Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.
Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.
The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.
For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.
Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.
When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.
Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.
The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.
Announcing is not levying a restriction.
Technically, the player still has the option of having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/04/27 08:50:21
Surely that makes it pretty absolute? It doesn't say maybe arriving by Deep Strike depending if I change my mind at a later time.
You announce it 'will be arriving via Deep Strike', surely this restricts you to actually arriving via Deep Strike?
The player is required to announce his intent so that the unit is 'able to Deep Strike'. But intent is the extent of it.
There is no rule that locks the unit into Deep Striking. Outflank locks the unit into outflanking.
The announcement doesn't bind the player in any way nor is it indicated to be non-revocable.
The rule could have placed the unit only in Deep Strike Reserves to make it binding and non-revocable.
Instead the rule placed the unit in both Deep Strike Reserves and Reserves to make it non-binding and revocable.
Per the rules, the player has the freedom to choose to walk on the battlefield from Reserves.
Summary of argument
Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.
Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.
The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.
For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.
Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.
When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.
Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.
The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.
Announcing is not levying a restriction.
Technically, the player still has the option of having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/27 09:04:13
Surely that makes it pretty absolute? It doesn't say maybe arriving by Deep Strike depending if I change my mind at a later time.
You announce it 'will be arriving via Deep Strike', surely this restricts you to actually arriving via Deep Strike?
The player is required to announce his intent so that the unit is 'able to Deep Strike'. But intent is the extent of it.
There is no rule that locks the unit into Deep Striking. Outflank locks the unit into outflanking.
The announcement doesn't bind the player in any way nor is it indicated to be non-revocable.
Per the rules, the player has the freedom to choose to walk on the battlefield from Reserves.
Summary of argument
Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.
Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.
The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.
For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.
Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.
When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.
Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.
The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.
Announcing is not levying a restriction.
Technically, the player still has the option of having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.
" when placing a unit in reserve , you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by deep strike"
No where does it say intent. You are making up words from thin air
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/27 09:05:57
Surely that makes it pretty absolute? It doesn't say maybe arriving by Deep Strike depending if I change my mind at a later time.
You announce it 'will be arriving via Deep Strike', surely this restricts you to actually arriving via Deep Strike?
The player is required to announce his intent so that the unit is 'able to Deep Strike'. But intent is the extent of it.
There is no rule that locks the unit into Deep Striking. Outflank locks the unit into outflanking.
The announcement doesn't bind the player in any way nor is it indicated to be non-revocable.
The rule could have placed the unit only in Deep Strike Reserves to make it binding and non-revocable.
Instead the rule placed the unit in both Deep Strike Reserves and Reserves to make it non-binding and revocable.
Per the rules, the player has the freedom to choose to walk on the battlefield from Reserves.
Summary of argument
Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.
Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.
The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.
For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.
Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.
When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.
Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.
The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.
Announcing is not levying a restriction.
Technically, the player still has the option of having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.
That's not what the rules says, the rules doesn't say you announce your intention it says 'When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike'.
No if's/buts/or maybes, the unit 'will' be arriving by Deep Strike. RAW you don't get to change your mind later.
That's not what the rules says, the rules doesn't say you announce your intention it says 'When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike'.
No if's/buts/or maybes, the unit 'will' be arriving by Deep Strike. RAW you don't get to change your mind later.
The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.
If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.
Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.
"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".
Summary of argument
Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.
Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.
The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.
For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.
Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.
When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.
Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.
The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.
Announcing is not levying a restriction.
Technically, the player still has the option of having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/04/27 09:50:47
A lot of back and forth for a rule set that will be obsolete soon, just wait till 8th ed and then they'll be an entire new rule set for everybody to ignore words, make up stuff or not understand basic English.
Col you are wrong.
The issue is that you never admit you are wrong.
If you were correct your absolute final point would be what you led with, but it never is.
Out flank states how you will arrive.
Out flank is a special rule.
Out flank determine especially how you arrive once you successfully get a reserve roll for them.
Deep strike tells you as part of the reserve roll how to deep strike. Both of these are absolutes once initiated, as they are special rules you cannot change the process until it is completed. Which is precisely what you are quoting some basic rule to do. It is a basic rule it means nothing in the face of a special rule that contradicts it.
"deploy as follows" is the only way they can deploy
Your nonsense about normal reserves is a basic rule that has been overridden by a special rule in both circumstances.
The issue is that you are deluded into thinking you still have a choice but you do not. The first paragraph of deep strike is only part of the rule not the entire rule, you cannot follow part of a rule.
Every time we have a discussion you find the words that make the outcome you want and then use those words and ignore the rest.
If this was a story then you are the boy who cried wolf. You have misrepresented the rules so many times no one even believes you anymore.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/27 13:43:05