Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
8. Wargear: This section details the weapons and equipment the models in the unit are
armed with, many of which are described in more detail in the Appendix of this book. The
cost for all the unit’s basic equipment is included in its points cost.
9. Special Rules: Any special rules that apply to models in the unit are listed here.
Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game
rules, it is represented by a special rule.
We are told that the unit has basic equipment.
Therefore all of the equipment it has, are basic rules used for that unit in that codex.
Faulty logic there - basic equipment refers to the equipment that it always has, as opposed to optional equipment that you may choose to purchase. This does not mean that the equipment is all basic and treated as basic rules. Also, that does not preclude the wargear from having special rules. That statement only covers special rules that the unit endemically has, not special rules contained in the wargear. We do know for a fact that wargear contains advanced rules, as a boltgun is listed as an example of a "special kind of weapon" that is defined on page 13 as being/having advanced rules. Is a boltgun "basic equipment" on some datasheets? Yes. Does a boltgun have advanced rules? Yes, according to page 13 in the basic vs advanced sidebar. Therefore, merely saying "basic equpment" doe NOT mean "basic rules"
Ceann wrote: You guys are greatly misinterpreting basic vs advanced..
No, not at all. You have demonstrated that you cannot even provide the correct information on where the basic rules end in the book, or what basic vs advanced is since you want to define special rules as being the only advanced rules, despite the definition of advanced rules disputing this. This is not cherry picking from that section, by the way, this is going with their definition.
"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models whether because they have..."
Ceann wrote: Now please follow what I am saying.
It is telling you the circumstances, under which something WOULD have an advanced rule.
Not that the things listed ARE advanced rules.
Really? It certainly looks like a definition. Combine that with what it says at the core rules section about that section containing "all" the basic rules you need. Are the rules found only outside the core rules section? Are you matching up with their definitions? If yes, then you have an advanced rule.
Ceann wrote: Because... "The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry."
And what about advanced rules that apply to missions? Advanced rules that apply to wargear, or to models? We're not told about those, yet we know they exist (especially Mission Special Rules). This is obviously not an all-inclusive statement since we have shown there are other advanced rules out there, ones that can apply elsewhere.
Ceann wrote: We are never anywhere given permission to make such determinations on our own.
Sorry, I disproved that in a previous post and you did not provide the proof to refute it. Not only to you have permission, you have a requirement to make such a determination if you are dealing with two conflicting rules. You are making a grevious error with this statement, and the mere repeating of it borders on col impact-type behavior.
Ceann wrote: The ONLY example of an advanced rule is this...
That statement is just plain wrong, as per the first sentence in the second paragraph of Basic versus Advanced. Special kind of weapon, unusual skills, different to their fellows, because they are not normal infantry models are 4 categories they list, with at least one example for each type. Therefore, saying "the ONLY example" is a demonstrably false statement.
Ceann wrote: We are told in the special rules section that models do not have special rules unless told otherwise.
Irrelevant, because we are talking advanced rules, not special rules. Special rules are merely a subset of advanced rules. Basing your entire argument on whether or not it has special rules fails when they tell you what advanced rules can be. You ignored the plethora of examples given in the previous thread due to an erroneous reading of what the basic rules and what the advanced rules are The basic rules are in the core rules section. A reference in the core rules section that there may be advanced rules later does not make those later rules basic rules; they are still advanced rules.
Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule.
SHOW ME where the gate is represented by a special rule?
You can't because it isn't. You are taking what you perceive to be the definition and running with it.
BvA states that any advanced rules that apply to a unit will be on it's datasheet. Terminator armor is on the datasheet for units that have terminator armor. The wargear entry for terminator armor STATES it has the bulky, deep strike and relentless special rules.
This is a perfect example of a wargear telling you what special rules it has.
Is the gate telling you that it has any special rules?
No.
Then it doesn't because it is not represented anywhere to have one.
2017/04/27 20:21:53
Subject: Re:Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves
I don't have time to keep up with the speed of the thread so will try to phase myself out as neatly as possible.
Charistoph wrote: I'm thinking torblind was quoting from one of the sub-references found in Scout or Infiltrate, not Outflank itself.
Ah, good catch, I didn't notice the multiple occurences, not sure where I quoted from, but I believe they all result in the same conclusion for my argument? Ie having "Outflank" means the rules now give you only one well defined way to arrive.
torblind wrote:Most people in the thread who argue say that when you say the "unit will arrive by DS", that unit now must arrive by DS. Changing the werb in that sentence already drastically changes the meaning.
A change caused by tense. One is defining an action of the future. The other is regarding the fulfillment of that expectation.
This is true, I was wrong, the verb as such is the same, but not, I would argue, the strict logical meaning of "will" and "must" when used in a rule. But I would not like to pursue this, it would be near pointless noise in this thread.
torblind wrote:I could say unit A will shoot at unit B, and then afterwards say "im rolling to run", and go on to roll a die to run unit A instead, no rule broken. Its not a nice way to behave, but its not illegal.
It depends on when you are announcing you are rolling to Run. If you are doing it during the To Wound portion of the Shooting Sequence, it is rather disingenuous and basically lying to your opponent. It is poor sportsmanship and will cause that you to lose any games.
I'm sure we can both agree that there are situations where I can easily get away with doing something else than what I at one point say without a rule that blocks me from doing that.
RAW says that by informing my opponent, my unit in Reserves is in Deep Strike Reserve. That is all RAW says.
Should the rule writers have wanted to force me to go through with the Deep Strike, they would have to add something like "these units shall now arrive by the rules of Deep Strike instead of walking on from Reserves as described in... " or something similar.
Regardless of that, I think the intention is quite clear, the rule intends to remove any confusion when the turn comes and I suddenly throw down a unit on the middle of the table (hey where did they come from), I also think they intended for that to be a forced outcome.
Ceann wrote: Outflank and Deep Strike dictate EXACTLY how you MUST arrive when using them.
If you try to bring that unit in via some other fashion, then you are conflicting with how the two special rules dictate they arrive.
You cannot use them to claim you are deploying in a particular fashion and then stop using the rule later to change it.
When you declare them in your deployment phase the bullet has effectively left the barrel, the grenade has been thrown.
You have no option to stop it "mid air" and change your mind. You have begun using the rule and must use the rule until it has been completed in it's finality.
Only a duly noted special rule from a codex could change the circumstances of their arrival.
Arriving from your board edge is not that circumstance.
Outflank is a done deal as far as I see it, it demonstrates how arrival from Reserves unambiguously can be narrowed to only one way.
For the rest of the argument I'm not 100% sure how to argue the case either way. I'd probably end up re-iterating what most of col_impact has already said, I believe, it would be something along the following lines:
For Deep Strike it says:
* It must have the rule
* It must start the game in Reserves
* You must inform the opponent that they will arrive by Deep Strike
If my unit starts the game in Reserves, surely it must be considered to be in "Reserves" for all intents and purposes until something explicitly takes me out of reserves, nothing changes that fact.
Arriving by deep strike
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units [...] and then deploy as follows
At first I did think that "Deep Striking units" would be units in the process of deep striking, but it is not, it has to refer to units in Deep Strike Reserve, because otherwise you couldn't make a roll for them.
You can only make a roll for a unit that is currently in Deep Strike reserve (or vanilla Reserves), you can not make a roll for a unit that is Deep Striking (as in actively performing the action), so the term "all Deep Striking units", has to refer to "all units in Deep Strike Reserves".
Now to the tricky part, it does say, black on white:
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units and then deploy them [...]
"Rolling for arrival" can only refer to the standard roll being made for Reserves, which takes place at a specific time in the turn.
If this description of how to roll for a unit in Deep Strike Reserve now prevents you from making a "normal" roll for moving on from the edge as arriving from "normal" Reserves, then a unit in Deep Strike Reserves is prevented from making this roll and thus move on from the edge. This would be the case now if this falls under the ruling about advanced rules taking precedence over not so advanced rules. Charistoph has reason to believe this is not the case: (I did not have his argument when I started on this reply)
Charistoph wrote: Incorrect. Reserves is a Mission Special Rule. It is not basic. Just because we are used to using it, does not define it as basic. That is your biggest problem with these definitions. You are taking something that is basic to us or to something else and defining it as basic without thinking about how the game sees it.
Otherwise, by this reasoning, this is a case of two conflicting rules that takes place at the same time:
1. Reserves says to roll to advance from my edge, that hasn't strictly and logically been taken away from the unit
2. Deep Strike says to roll in a similar way but then immediately do different things.
It doesn't say that "units in Deep Strike reserves" roll like this instead.
Because the Deep Strike rule didn't clear up its relation to Reserves, there are two conflicting rolls by my reasoning. As such controlling player decides. And moves on from the edge.
But again, I think there is little doubt of how the rule writers intended the game to be played.
The issue here is that Infantry are used to explain the rules.
It explicitly states on the first page of the movement phase that they will start by explaining infantry.
"For the time being, we’ll just EXPLAIN how squads of Infantry move..."
Everything after that stems from this false idea, that Infantry being used to explain the procedures for the phases, makes them the default rules and nothing else.
If you consider this and then think about my view you will see how everything else I am saying makes a lot more sense.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Torblind,
The player cannot make that decision.
Just like if you have a unit that has relentless, you cannot choose to make it snapfire when shooting. You just don't have the choice.
Of if you have Move Through Cover and you want to try to kill your unit for some reason, you can't choose to make them take that roll for terrain.
Or if you have Zealot you cannot choose to go to ground.
The ability to make the choice has been eliminated. Because you have to do exactly what the special rule states, you are not given choices.
The roll for deepstrike states, deploy them AS FOLLOWS and then lists the procedure, to follow.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/27 20:32:35
2017/04/27 20:33:19
Subject: Re:Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves
This thread is getting de-railed by a discussion about Eternity Gate which is expressly what the OP forbid.
Happyjew wrote: If I put a unit with Deep Strike (or Outflank) in Reserves, and declare them to be Deep Striking (or Outflanking), are you allowed to change how they come on? Can they choose to walk on as normal after they have sat in Reserves for a turn or 2? Or are they required to come in via the method you have told your opponent?
This is a slight off-shoot of the previous thread regarding the Monolith portal and Deep Strike Reserves, and while it may have some bearing on that discussion, it was locked for a reason. So please leave that topic at the door.
I suggest we get back to the actual discussion about whether or not a player who declares a unit to be Deep Striking can change how they come on.
Now many of you may have RAI arguments that the player cannot change how they come on, but RAW says otherwise.
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.
Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.
The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.
For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.
Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.
When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.
Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.
The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.
Announcing is not levying a restriction.
When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.
If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.
Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.
"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".
Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/27 20:37:18
Ceann wrote: You cannot use part of a special rule Col.
"Deploy them as follows"
Just like you can't fire a plasma gun but forget about the "get's hot" part.
Basic reserve rules have no precedence.
Therefore you cannot contradict "deploy them as follows".
I am free to follow whatever options the rules leave open.
Outflank removes options. Deep Strike does not. A unit that announces that it will arrive via Deep Strike is placed in both Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves. The first part of the sentence that ends with "deploy them as follows" is simply never invoked.
This permission is followed instead.
Spoiler:
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as
normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.
Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn.
Reserves is a special rule and cannot be overridden by Deep Strike. In order to prevent a unit from being able to move on the battlefield from Reserves the option to do so must be taken away as is it in the case of Outflank.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/27 20:58:28
The issue here is that Infantry are used to explain the rules.
It explicitly states on the first page of the movement phase that they will start by explaining infantry.
"For the time being, we’ll just EXPLAIN how squads of Infantry move..."
Everything after that stems from this false idea, that Infantry being used to explain the procedures for the phases, makes them the default rules and nothing else.
If you consider this and then think about my view you will see how everything else I am saying makes a lot more sense.
"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, wehter because...or beacuse they are not normal infantry models (a bikde, a swarm or even a tank)"
So, they show advanced rules apply to models that are not normal infantry models. Infantry are the default because there are no advanced rules needed for them, all the rules needed for them are basic rules. Other types of unit have additional rules which do not apply to all types of models in the game, so override the basic rules. This makes them advanced rules, as per the quotation above.
I considered it and thought about your view, then rejected it because your view is still blinkered about what is basic compared to what is advanced.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/27 20:58:33
Ceann wrote:Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule.
SHOW ME where the gate is represented by a special rule?
You can't because it isn't. You are taking what you perceive to be the definition and running with it.
Show me how the gate does not have a special rule.
What does the gate do that is normal?
Where does it state that a special rule must have a name?
Where does it state that it may only be found in the special rules section of a book?
Ceann wrote:BvA states that any advanced rules that apply to a unit will be on it's datasheet. Terminator armor is on the datasheet for units that have terminator armor. The wargear entry for terminator armor STATES it has the bulky, deep strike and relentless special rules.
This is a perfect example of a wargear telling you what special rules it has.
Is the gate telling you that it has any special rules?
No.
Then it doesn't because it is not represented anywhere to have one.
Yes, the gate is telling me it has special rules. It isn't by name, but by what it tells me to do, break the rules.
You have not answered my question, I see.
What type of rules do the Eternity Gate go by under your distinctions?
Ceann wrote:Tom,
The issue here is that Infantry are used to explain the rules.
It explicitly states on the first page of the movement phase that they will start by explaining infantry.
"For the time being, we’ll just EXPLAIN how squads of Infantry move..."
Everything after that stems from this false idea, that Infantry being used to explain the procedures for the phases, makes them the default rules and nothing else.
If you consider this and then think about my view you will see how everything else I am saying makes a lot more sense.
Actually the rulebook tying the Infantry rules to only being the basic rules, and everything else talking about basic rules and Infantry rules in too many sentences make it not a false idea. But hey, ignore away and project.
The game writers know that different rules will come along and change them. It goes over the basic rules, which are also the Infantry rules for the most part, first. Just because it is stating, "but wait, more rules will come along and change this", by no means those "more rules" are basic rules, especially when everything else which denotes "basic vs advanced" tells you "more rules' are not basic rules.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/27 20:45:25
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
col_impact wrote: The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.
Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
No, the rules only indicate that units that "must arrive by Deep Strike" must be placed in Reserves and must arrive by Deep Strike. This does not mean that they are the only units that must arrive by deep strike.
col_impact wrote: A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.
Except that you have defined the unit as a deep striking unit when you declared it will arrive by Deep Strike at the time you placed it in Reserves. There are rules for how deep striking units arrive. You don't have permission to change their status from a deep striking unit to a non-deep striking unit. That change in status because of your declaraion is a restriction.
col_impact wrote: For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.
Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.
When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.
Please note that the Outflank fule itself states "When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserves, the controllling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2...(page 168). Now, that is different wording from what you have. It's supposed to be the same rule, however. For it to be the same rule, then obviously what is said in the outflanking part itself about "When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves", it means that it is considered an Outflanking unit from the moment it is declared to be outflanking - "this unit" in your statement corresponding to "an Outflanking unit" in the Outflank rule. This would mean that when you read "roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units..." it means all units that have declared they are deep striking, just as outflanking units are units that declared they will be outflanking when placed into Reserves. GW making the slight difference in the different places on how they treated outflanking does certainly make it clear what their intention is, even if you don't want to axccept it as RAW.
Ceann wrote: You cannot use part of a special rule Col.
"Deploy them as follows"
Just like you can't fire a plasma gun but forget about the "get's hot" part.
Basic reserve rules have no precedence.
Therefore you cannot contradict "deploy them as follows".
I am free to follow whatever options the rules leave open.
Outflank removes options. Deep Strike does not. A unit that announces that it will arrive via Deep Strike is placed in both Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves. The first part of the sentence that ends with "deploy them as follows" is simply never invoked.
This permission is followed instead.
Spoiler:
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as
normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.
Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn.
You aren't free to do anything.
Your spoiler means nothing.
Deep Strike is a special rule.
If you wish to place a unit in deep strike reserve, then you are using the rule.
The rule ends when the unit resolves from a successful deep strike attempt.
If you attempt to do anything else, you are conflicting with the special rule.
Deep Strike is a special rule.
If you wish to place a unit in deep strike reserve, then you are using the rule.
The rule ends when the unit resolves from a successful deep strike attempt.
If you attempt to do anything else, you are conflicting with the special rule.
Reserves is a special rule as well so the two are forced to co-exist.
The unit is both in Reserves and in Deep Strike Reserves at the same time, leaving the option open to simply walk on the battlefield from Reserves when it comes time to Roll for Reserves. Outflank removes the option for a unit to be able to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. Deep Strike does not.
Summary of Argument
Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.
Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.
The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.
For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.
Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.
When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.
Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.
The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.
Announcing is not levying a restriction.
When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.
If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.
Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.
"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".
Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/27 21:02:46
Ceann wrote:Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule.
SHOW ME where the gate is represented by a special rule?
You can't because it isn't. You are taking what you perceive to be the definition and running with it.
Show me how the gate does not have a special rule.
What does the gate do that is normal?
Where does it state that a special rule must have a name?
Where does it state that it may only be found in the special rules section of a book?
Ceann wrote:BvA states that any advanced rules that apply to a unit will be on it's datasheet. Terminator armor is on the datasheet for units that have terminator armor. The wargear entry for terminator armor STATES it has the bulky, deep strike and relentless special rules.
This is a perfect example of a wargear telling you what special rules it has.
Is the gate telling you that it has any special rules?
No.
Then it doesn't because it is not represented anywhere to have one.
Yes, the gate is telling me it has special rules. It isn't by name, but by what it tells me to do, break the rules.
You have not answered my question, I see.
What type of rules do the Eternity Gate go by under your distinctions?
Ceann wrote:Tom,
The issue here is that Infantry are used to explain the rules.
It explicitly states on the first page of the movement phase that they will start by explaining infantry.
"For the time being, we’ll just EXPLAIN how squads of Infantry move..."
Everything after that stems from this false idea, that Infantry being used to explain the procedures for the phases, makes them the default rules and nothing else.
If you consider this and then think about my view you will see how everything else I am saying makes a lot more sense.
Actually the rulebook tying the Infantry rules to only being the basic rules, and everything else talking about basic rules and Infantry rules in too many sentences make it not a false idea. But hey, ignore away and project.
The game writers know that different rules will come along and change them. It goes over the basic rules, which are also the Infantry rules for the most part, first. Just because it is stating, "but wait, more rules will come along and change this", by no means those "more rules" are basic rules, especially when everything else which denotes "basic vs advanced" tells you "more rules' are not basic rules.
The reason I address that comment to Tom is because you are already set in your ways.
In fact the rules being described as a procedure makes more sense than defining them around a particular unit type. Which it does not say anywhere that it does anyway.
All of your examples of that are pulled from AFTER the point that it states it will explain the rules using them. So of course you can point to those statements.
Your premise however is false, which makes all the rest of it false.
The eternity gate would use the basic rules for disembarking, because that is the action it states that it takes.
The disembarkation process can be found in the BRB and can be replicated for any transport that performs disembarking, the rule for the gate tells you everything you need to know.
If it isn't telling you by name, then it doesn't have any. If you claim it does then that is HYWPI or RAI per your view.
The special rules section explicitly states that a unit has no special rules unless told otherwise. The only special rules we are told it has are deep strike and living metal.
Again the core rules section tells you the PROCESS for phases. It always states" your units, your models" it never states "your infantry".
The rule book is telling you the basic rules for your UNITS, your MODELS, not for "Infantry".
It is not a special rule Col, sorry buddy.
You are just grasping at straws now.
"Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game
rules, it is represented by a special rule."
Is there a special rule called Reserve in the special rules section?
Nope.
WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?
It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule.
Do any models have a special rule called "Reserve"?
Nope.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/27 21:12:49
2017/04/27 21:13:29
Subject: Re:Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves
col_impact wrote: A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.
Except that you have defined the unit as a deep striking unit when you declared it will arrive by Deep Strike at the time you placed it in Reserves. There are rules for how deep striking units arrive. You don't have permission to change their status from a deep striking unit to a non-deep striking unit. That change in status because of your declaraion is a restriction.
You are imagining things. The rules make no such change in status. The only thing that has happened is that the player has announced "this unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and he does that in order that the unit "is able to Deep Strike". The rules make no mention that the announcement locks the unit in to a state of Deep Striking. You are making that up. Stick exactly to what the rules say. The unit has merely been enabled to be able to Deep Strike and has been placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves.
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
Ceann, it would be best to drop the eternity gate stuff. The rules being referenced are advanced rules Getting into this is just derailing things, so we should probably just stick with arguing each side without invoking the Eternity Gate.
doctortom wrote: Ceann, it would be best to drop the eternity gate stuff. The rules being referenced are advanced rules Getting into this is just derailing things, so we should probably just stick with arguing each side without invoking the Eternity Gate.
As I said before.
This all boils down to Infantry being used to explain the rules.
If someone draws the conclusion of that being the standard, then the entire view of the rules and how they function from that point forward is skewed.
In majority of these cases very skewed.
You can't really have a good assessment of any ruling if the fundamentals are based on a false premise.
Col always assumes he can do the things that he isn't told he can't do.
However the rules are permissive and tell you what you can do, and you can only do that and nothing else.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/27 21:20:23
2017/04/27 21:19:21
Subject: Re:Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves
col_impact wrote: A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.
Except that you have defined the unit as a deep striking unit when you declared it will arrive by Deep Strike at the time you placed it in Reserves. There are rules for how deep striking units arrive. You don't have permission to change their status from a deep striking unit to a non-deep striking unit. That change in status because of your declaraion is a restriction.
You are imagining things. The rules make no such change in status. The only thing that has happened is that the player has announced "this unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and he does that in order that the unit "is able to Deep Strike". The rules make no mention that the announcement locks the unit in to a state of Deep Striking. You are making that up. Stick exactly to what the rules say. The unit has merely been enabled to be able to Deep Strike and has been placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves.
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
I imagine nothing. I even gave you a page number to reference my quotation. Go ahead and give me a page number reference for your version of Outflank. The wording for the two conditions are different. Are you saying they don't do the same thing? It's the same rule, or supposed to be. How do YOU explain them being the same rule if the wording is different. As I said, this certainly lays out their intention perfectly even if you do not to read it as RAW. Given that interpretation, you should be applying the same interpretation to Deep Strike in order to be consistent.
It is not a special rule Col, sorry buddy.
You are just grasping at straws now.
"Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game
rules, it is represented by a special rule."
Is there a special rule called Reserve in the special rules section?
Nope.
WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?
It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule.
Do any models have a special rule called "Reserve"?
Nope.
Reserves is a special rule affecting all models in the Mission. The only thing that you need to be concerned about is that it is not a basic rule so BvA does not apply.
Spoiler:
MISSION SPECIAL RULES Special rules can be added to a game to cover unique situations, tactics or abilities that you feel need to be represented in your battle.
Mysterious Objectives Night Fighting Reserves Reserves are forces that can be called upon to reinforce a battle at short notice, or to conceal your true strength from the foe.
Preparing Reserves
When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. In addition, if it impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve. The only exception to this are units that cannot move after they have been deployed. Such units are removed as casualties if it is impossible to deploy them during the Deployment step of Preparing for Battle.
Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon
any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.
Arriving from Reserve
At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.
At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.
Some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive from Reserve. Regardless of the modifier(s), a natural roll of a 1 always means that the unit in question remains in Reserve.
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.
Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn. A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve.
If for some reason a model’s maximum move is insufficient to fit the entire model onto the board, or it becomes Immobilised whilst moving onto the board, place the model as far onto the table as you can. If this leaves the model in a position where it may fall off the table, then mark the position the model is meant to be occupying in some manner, and then position it more safely – we don’t want any models to get damaged in the battles that we fight!
Ongoing Reserves
If a unit enters Reserve part way through the game, such as a Flyer leaving the battlefield, this is referred to as entering Ongoing Reserves. Units in Ongoing Reserve always re- enter play at the start of their controlling player’s following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/04/27 21:30:12
doctortom wrote: Ceann, it would be best to drop the eternity gate stuff. The rules being referenced are advanced rules Getting into this is just derailing things, so we should probably just stick with arguing each side without invoking the Eternity Gate.
As I said before.
This all boils down to Infantry being used to explain the rules.
If someone draws the conclusion of that being the standard, then the entire view of the rules and how they function from that point forward is skewed.
In majority of these cases very skewed.
You can't really have a good assessment of any ruling if the fundamentals are based on a false premise.
I maintain it is you who don't have the good assessment. I will also say that you show the same stubbornness as col impact - I ask for us to drop it, and you want to continue the argument. Wise up, if you're trying to get the thread locked up, at least stick with the main topic and let it be locked up in discourse with col impact (who I hope will engage on the points I posted on and not just stick with the copy and pasting his previous answers). That should not be too much to ask.
2017/04/27 21:23:23
Subject: Re:Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves
I imagine nothing. I even gave you a page number to reference my quotation. Go ahead and give me a page number reference for your version of Outflank. The wording for the two conditions are different. Are you saying they don't do the same thing? It's the same rule, or supposed to be. How do YOU explain them being the same rule if the wording is different. As I said, this certainly lays out their intention perfectly even if you do not to read it as RAW. Given that interpretation, you should be applying the same interpretation to Deep Strike in order to be consistent.
I am sticking with RAW and I am not going to make a guess as to intent. I am not a mind-reader. Neither are you.
You should rather ask yourself - what rules keeps the player from having the unit walk on the board from Reserves? The answer is there is no rule.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/27 21:25:16
It is not a special rule Col, sorry buddy.
You are just grasping at straws now.
"Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game
rules, it is represented by a special rule."
Is there a special rule called Reserve in the special rules section?
Nope.
WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?
It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule.
Do any models have a special rule called "Reserve"?
Nope.
Reserves is a special rule affecting all models in the Mission. The only thing that you need to be concerned about is that it is not a basic rule so BvA does not apply.
Spoiler:
MISSION SPECIAL RULES Special rules can be added to a game to cover unique situations, tactics or abilities that you feel need to be represented in your battle.
Mysterious Objectives Night Fighting Reserves Reserves are forces that can be called upon to reinforce a battle at short notice, or to conceal your true strength from the foe.
Preparing Reserves
When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. In addition, if it impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve. The only exception to this are units that cannot move after they have been deployed. Such units are removed as casualties if it is impossible to deploy them during the Deployment step of Preparing for Battle.
Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon
any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.
Arriving from Reserve
At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.
At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.
Some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive from Reserve. Regardless of the modifier(s), a natural roll of a 1 always means that the unit in question remains in Reserve.
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.
Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn. A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve.
If for some reason a model’s maximum move is insufficient to fit the entire model onto the board, or it becomes Immobilised whilst moving onto the board, place the model as far onto the table as you can. If this leaves the model in a position where it may fall off the table, then mark the position the model is meant to be occupying in some manner, and then position it more safely – we don’t want any models to get damaged in the battles that we fight!
Ongoing Reserves
If a unit enters Reserve part way through the game, such as a Flyer leaving the battlefield, this is referred to as entering Ongoing Reserves. Units in Ongoing Reserve always re- enter play at the start of their controlling player’s following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves.
Such a liar.
Bold faced.
Mysterious Objectives, if you actually start reading the section states it is a special rule, first sentence.
Night Fighting states it is a special rule, first sentence.
Tactical Objectives? first sentence.
Reserves?
Can't seem to find it anywhere Col. In fact the only think it does mention is that some special rules can modify the roll to arrive from Reserve.
Which outflank and deep strike would.
Charlatan, word soup.
Can you at least actually read the entirety of the rules in question and provide page numbers or quotes instead of cherry picking what you like?
You are attempting to present something, yet again, as an argument that is blatantly false.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/27 21:36:40
2017/04/27 21:36:27
Subject: Re:Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves
I imagine nothing. I even gave you a page number to reference my quotation. Go ahead and give me a page number reference for your version of Outflank. The wording for the two conditions are different. Are you saying they don't do the same thing? It's the same rule, or supposed to be. How do YOU explain them being the same rule if the wording is different. As I said, this certainly lays out their intention perfectly even if you do not to read it as RAW. Given that interpretation, you should be applying the same interpretation to Deep Strike in order to be consistent.
I am sticking with RAW and I am not going to make a guess as to intent. I am not a mind-reader. Neither are you.
You should rather ask yourself - what rules keeps the player from having the unit walk on the board from Reserves? The answer is there is no rule.
Saying you have to be a mind reader is disingenuous. Go ahead and read the Special Rule for Outflank, the rule itself, not as referenced in the other rules. Then, go ahead and read the other version when you're going back to giving the page number reference I asked you for.
What rules keep you from walking on the board? The rule saying you declare that you are going to deep strike, which classifies you as a deep striking unit. Just as a unit that declares himself to be outflanking is an outflanking unit (as we see when consulting ALL the Rules As Written for Outflanking. ALL the Outflanking rules establish declaration as changing the status of the unit to the designation of a unit coming in from that method (in this case, outflanking), so therefore not applying the same standard to a unit declaring itself as coming in from deep striking as a deep striking unit shows a severe case of myopia.
Mysterious Objectives, if you actually start reading the section states it is a special rule, first sentence.
Night Fighting states it is a special rule, first sentence.
Tactical Objectives? first sentence.
Reserves?
Can't seem to find it anywhere Col. In fact the only think it does mention is that some special rules can modify the roll to arrive from Reserve.
Which outflank and deep strike would.
Only because you ignored Charistoph and myself pointing out that Reserves are in the section MISSION SPECIAL RULES and points out that the section has special rules for missions. Go ahead, check out page 135. "The Warhammer 40,000 missions included in this book mostly make use of the more common mission special rules presented here; many other missions will use these alongside their own special rules."
Sorry, Ceann, the colonel is right about Reserves being special rules.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/27 21:43:21
2017/04/27 21:43:47
Subject: Re:Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves
What rules keep you from walking on the board? The rule saying you declare that you are going to deep strike, which classifies you as a deep striking unit.
There is no such rule. When you announce to your opponent that "[this unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" the unit is enabled "to be able to Deep Strike" and is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves.
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
There is no classification of the unit in question as a Deep Striking unit. You are making that up. You are not allowed to make stuff up. Stick to what the rules say.
The unit is free to exercise the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. No rule has taken away that permission.
Summary of Argument
Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.
Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.
The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.
For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.
Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.
When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.
Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.
The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.
Announcing is not levying a restriction.
When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.
If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.
Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.
"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".
Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/27 21:45:20
2017/04/27 21:47:44
Subject: Re:Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves
What rules keep you from walking on the board? The rule saying you declare that you are going to deep strike, which classifies you as a deep striking unit.
There is no such rule. When you announce to your opponent that "[this unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" the unit is enabled "to be able to Deep Strike" and is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves.
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
There is no classification of the unit in question as a Deep Striking unit. You are making that up. You are not allowed to make stuff up. Stick to what the rules say.
The unit is free to exercise the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. No rule has taken away that permission.
DEPLOY AS FOLLOWS.
Its in the words of the deep strike special rule.
Now Col in english we have these things call paragraphs.
"a distinct section of a piece of writing, usually dealing with a single theme and indicated by a new line, indentation, or numbering."
Now you see big guy, we have multiples of these things called paragraphs, involving the rule Deep Strike.
And you are only reading the first one.
There is another section called "Arriving by Deep Strike"
And a third called "Deep Strike Mishap Table"
And once you finish reading "Deep Strike Mishap Table" then you have finally (Congratulations!!!!) finished reading the rule.
If you try to walk on the board, then you are not "deploying as follows".
If you are not "deploying as follows" you are conflicting with the rule.
When you are conflicting with a rule, the special rule has precedence.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/27 21:49:28
2017/04/27 21:48:34
Subject: Re:Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves
What rules keep you from walking on the board? The rule saying you declare that you are going to deep strike, which classifies you as a deep striking unit.
There is no such rule. When you announce to your opponent that "[this unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" the unit is enabled "to be able to Deep Strike" and is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves.
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
There is no classification of the unit in question as a Deep Striking unit. You are making that up. You are not allowed to make stuff up. Stick to what the rules say.
The unit is free to exercise the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. No rule has taken away that permission.
I see you haven't done what I said; it doesn't appear that you have even contemplated what I am saying. But,I do have to say that if there is no classification of a unit as a Deep Striking unit, then you can not use the Deep Strike rules as it only covers how to handle the arrival of Deep Striking Units. Go ahead and check that out, the classification is not made up. GW made up the classification and put it in their rules. Should we iignore it because GW made it up?
Again, please do what I asked you to do about providing a reference to your outflank quotation that you haven't yet. I will add to it by asking that you type the quotation for the Outflank special rule itself so that we can tell you actually bothered to go read it. After that we can discuss how the contrast between the two versions.
2017/04/27 21:55:55
Subject: Re:Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves
I see you haven't done what I said; it doesn't appear that you have even contemplated what I am saying. But,I do have to say that if there is no classification of a unit as a Deep Striking unit, then you can not use the Deep Strike rules as it only covers how to handle the arrival of Deep Striking Units. Go ahead and check that out, the classification is not made up. GW made up the classification and put it in their rules. Should we iignore it because GW made it up?
Again, please do what I asked you to do about providing a reference to your outflank quotation that you haven't yet. I will add to it by asking that you type the quotation for the Outflank special rule itself so that we can tell you actually bothered to go read it. After that we can discuss how the contrast between the two versions.
We are dealing with the Rules As Written. Let's stick to what the rules actually say. I am not going to take a trip down 'Speculation Road' with you and start guessing at what GW intended.
If you have something to prove with a rules quote then prove it.
Otherwise, there is no rule preventing a unit that has been place in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves from simply walking on the battlefield from Reserves.
Summary of Argument
Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.
Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.
The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.
For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.
Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.
When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.
Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.
The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.
Announcing is not levying a restriction.
When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.
If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.
Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.
"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".
Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/27 21:57:19
Ceann wrote:The reason I address that comment to Tom is because you are already set in your ways.
I can change if given supportable reason. You have given none.
Ceann wrote:In fact the rules being described as a procedure makes more sense than defining them around a particular unit type. Which it does not say anywhere that it does anyway.
All of your examples of that are pulled from AFTER the point that it states it will explain the rules using them. So of course you can point to those statements.
Your premise however is false, which makes all the rest of it false.
No, not all were after the point, one was before we even started reading about the turn.
Ceann wrote:The eternity gate would use the basic rules for disembarking, because that is the action it states that it takes.
The disembarkation process can be found in the BRB and can be replicated for any transport that performs disembarking, the rule for the gate tells you everything you need to know.
Disembarking is not a basic rule, though. I find it mentioned no where in the Movement Phase of the rules. It is exclusive to a specific unit type which the Monolith does not have.
In order for a unit to Disembark, the unit must first be Embarked on it, according to its Transport Capacity. The Eternity Gate does not Embark the unit, nor does the Monolith have a Transport Capacity to Embark a unit on.
Pulling a unit out of Reserves is not a basic rule, either, they are Mission Special Rules. The Eternity Gate even modifies this by bypassing the need to roll to Arrival. Furthermore, it changes it by not having the unit arrive the table edge, but by Disembarking from the Monolith.
Tell me where any of these changes are in the basic rules or even normal to anything but the Eternity Gate?
Ceann wrote:If it isn't telling you by name, then it doesn't have any.
Quote please.
Ceann wrote:Again the core rules section tells you the PROCESS for phases. It always states" your units, your models" it never states "your infantry".
The rule book is telling you the basic rules for your UNITS, your MODELS, not for "Infantry".
It is stated in numerous places that Infantry rules are basic rules. You blind yourself by focusing too much on tiny details without considering the entire picture of the rulebook. It's almost as bad as Col_Ignored, but at least you look at whole sentences.
Ceann wrote:It is not a special rule Col, sorry buddy.
You are just grasping at straws now.
"Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game
rules, it is represented by a special rule."
Is there a special rule called Reserve in the special rules section?
Nope.
WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?
It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule.
Do any models have a special rule called "Reserve"?
Nope.
Hmm...
(1)ETERNAL WAR: CRUSADE ...
MISSION SPECIAL RULES Night Fighting, Reserves, Mysterious Objectives.
Sure looks like Reserves are a special rule to me. Not provided by an army list entry, but by the mission. That being said, it does affect the models and how they operate within the game.
Your hard definition is showing soft edges, Caenn.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/27 22:28:43
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
Ceann wrote:The reason I address that comment to Tom is because you are already set in your ways.
I can change if given supportable reason. You have given none.
Ceann wrote:In fact the rules being described as a procedure makes more sense than defining them around a particular unit type. Which it does not say anywhere that it does anyway.
All of your examples of that are pulled from AFTER the point that it states it will explain the rules using them. So of course you can point to those statements.
Your premise however is false, which makes all the rest of it false.
No, not all were after the point, one was before we even started reading about the turn.
Ceann wrote:The eternity gate would use the basic rules for disembarking, because that is the action it states that it takes.
The disembarkation process can be found in the BRB and can be replicated for any transport that performs disembarking, the rule for the gate tells you everything you need to know.
Disembarking is not a basic rule, though. I find it mentioned no where in the Movement Phase of the rules. It is exclusive to a specific unit type which the Monolith does not have.
In order for a unit to Disembark, the unit must first be Embarked on it, according to its Transport Capacity. The Eternity Gate does not Embark the unit, nor does the Monolith have a Transport Capacity to Embark a unit on.
Pulling a unit out of Reserves is not a basic rule, either, they are Mission Special Rules. The Eternity Gate even modifies this by bypassing the need to roll to Arrival. Furthermore, it changes it by not having the unit arrive the table edge, but by Disembarking from the Monolith.
Tell me where any of these changes are in the basic rules or even normal to anything but the Eternity Gate?
Ceann wrote:If it isn't telling you by name, then it doesn't have any.
Quote please.
Ceann wrote:Again the core rules section tells you the PROCESS for phases. It always states" your units, your models" it never states "your infantry".
The rule book is telling you the basic rules for your UNITS, your MODELS, not for "Infantry".
It is stated in numerous places that Infantry rules are basic rules. You blind yourself by focusing too much on tiny details without considering the entire picture of the rulebook. It's almost as bad as Col_Ignored, but at least you look at whole sentences.
Ceann wrote:It is not a special rule Col, sorry buddy.
You are just grasping at straws now.
"Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game
rules, it is represented by a special rule."
Is there a special rule called Reserve in the special rules section?
Nope.
WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?
It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule.
Do any models have a special rule called "Reserve"?
Nope.
Hmm...
(1) ETERNAL WAR: CRUSADE ...
MISSION SPECIAL RULES Night Fighting, Reserves, Mysterious Objectives.
Sure looks like Reserves are a special rule to me. Not provided by an army list entry, but by the mission. That being said, it does affect the models and how they operate within the game.
Your hard definition is showing soft edges, Caenn.
I can also change if given supportable reason.
However all basic vs advanced tells us is that the basic rules are all you need to use Infantry. And because they don't have any special rules as a unit type, that statement is 100% accurate, if misleading.
However it does say the basic rules apply to ALL MODELS, not that the INFANTRY rules apply to all models.
I remain unconvinced that Infantry are the standard, it has not been clearly stated to my satisfaction.
If for the sake of argument, you take my stance, then disembarking is a basic rule for a transport, no issues from my perspective.
The friction is that you believe it contradicts an infantry standard, to me, each unit type has a standard. In this case the gate is using a basic rule for transports.
Yes, the gate does conflict with the BRB, however it is allowed too because it is a codex rule, by that virtue alone, it being an advanced rule is not a requirement to function.
"On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence."
Please note that it states a rule, not an advanced rule, if all of the codex rules were advanced rules, this statement would then be redundant and not required.
You ask for a quote... Both are from the Special Rules section of the BRB.
"Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule."
"It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule."
I would argue that my definition is not showing edges.
As you clearly showed you have special rules, labeled as special rules.
I may have been mistaken about what Reserves is as a status, but that does not fault my premise.
It still is a rule for a mission, not a rule for a unit or model, it would be difficult to make it applicable in that regard.
Luckily it gives permission for other special rules to modify the reserves, which we have two that do, Outflank and Reserve.
Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun
Happyjew wrote: If I put a unit with Deep Strike (or Outflank) in Reserves, and declare them to be Deep Striking (or Outflanking), are you allowed to change how they come on? Can they choose to walk on as normal after they have sat in Reserves for a turn or 2? Or are they required to come in via the method you have told your opponent?
This is a slight off-shoot of the previous thread regarding the Monolith portal and Deep Strike Reserves, and while it may have some bearing on that discussion, it was locked for a reason. So please leave that topic at the door.
I would say that I have reservations as to whether or not limitations are there. However the Deep Strike rule itself states that you roll for all DSing units and then deploy in a specific manner. As long as you specify that the unit is going to deploy normally before making the roll for arrival there should be no issue.
Cheers
Andrew
I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!
Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
