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Ceann wrote:
No, actually it sounds like I wish to simply the issue, both are perspectives are based entirely off of how we view the application of the rules at a basic level. What we were doing was discussing more and more tangents, which frankly will all be resolved by addressing the core issue.

My asking those questions was an attempt at simplifying the discussion. You do not answer the questions and veer of on a tangent. That does not quantify as simplifying in any method I have heard of.

Ceann wrote:
It troubles me because as I have read the rules I have not come to your conclusion. I see logical reasons to not have this conclusion.

All based on a user construct instead of using the terms provided.

Ceann wrote:
As far as I am aware you roll to see if you are wounded for dangerous terrain, not for morale.

Then you need to review what causes a Morale Check. Under WHEN TO TEST:

• Casualties: A unit losing 25% or more of its current models during a single phase must take a Morale check at the end of that phase. There is an exception: units that lose 25% or more of their current models in the Assault phase do not take a Morale check.

If a quarter or more of a unit falls to Dangerous Terrain means a Morale Check.

Ceann wrote:
I have provided, countless times, the references, yet you choose to ignore them. I will post it again.
"For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section (pg61-71).

So you want to acknowledge "models move 6"" but ignore "For the time being, we’ll just explain". The preceding statement clearly invalidates "models move 6" as we were just told we were going to explained the rules for Infantry, not that they were a standard.

Then you also want to ignore " ]Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section (pg61-71). So if anything, it would seem that you are reading what you want to read and ignoring the rest. You also ignore that I have pointed out that the introduction tells us that the most important part of a rule will be bold and the bold part is that models may move their maximum distance. What I need to understand is why you are ignoring the entire section labeled "The Movement Phase" and skipping right over to a subsection that we were just told was going to explain infantry to us and then proclaim it gospel.

Distance is not mentioned in your quotes. A referral for Distance is not mentioned in your quotes. A "way" of moving is not the distance of moving. Nothing in these quote counters the explicit direction in Movement Distance of models moving up to 6".

This does not answer the question or the challenge. It ignores the question and challenge and provides an answer you choose to use. This has been pointed out repeatedly.

If we go by this determination, we only have Infantry Distances alone. Going by your assessment, then, what is the Movement Distance for Jet Pack? Artillery? Monstrous Creatures? Jump units when not Jumping?

It should be pointed out that Movement Distance does not restrict itself to just Infantry models, but "models" in general. That's because these are the basic models.

 doctortom wrote:

Ceann wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Ceann wrote:



The core rules explains the following.
Units, models and their characteristics.
The basic phases and the sequencing of each phase.

Weapons are chosen as part of the "choose a weapon to fire" in the sequence of the shooting phase.
Weapons are not located in the core rules section, does that make weapons advanced rules? No. It makes them profiles for weapons.
Just like Unit Types are the profiles for units.Las cannons and stormbolters are used as examples to explain firing weapons, yet no one claims they are the basic weapons and all the others are advanced.
They are not rules, they are profiles for Units that fit into the basic rules. The only rules there are the special rules, which are notated as such.
The unit types does nothing except give you the profiles for how those units "move, shoot,assault or have morale" no new basic rules are explained there.

I have tried to simplify the questions because there are too many tangents and I feel like the core issue is here.

You should try to keep my quotes attributed, for people trying to follow this.

I'm sorry, but you're taking a key word "core rules" and heading off into your own spin without directly addressing the question.. What page number does the "core rules" end on? You seem to be having problems with the simple questions.

***

As a point - models with special kinds of weapons such as a boltgun are treated as having advanced rules - the rules for the boltgun are advanced rules. Yes, they are profiles for weapons. Not every weapon or every model has that weapon profile. The basic rules state that weapons have a profile and list the types of weapon. A specific profile would not be basic rules though according to a specific example on page 13 (citing boltgun as an example - feel free to explain where the advanced rules they say a model with a boltgun has if you're saying that the rules associated with them are basic rules yet the rulebook cites a model with one as having advanced rules).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:


No, actually it sounds like I wish to simply the issue

Really? The question I gave you can't be much simpler - where does the core rulebook section end, and you managed to run off on a tangent instead of giving a simple answer. That doesn't simplify things. The quote about all the basic rules being in the core section, and asking you where the core section ends is getting back to first principles.

The core rules section ends on page 59.
Unit types starts on page 62 with the first unit type listed as Infantry.
If your logic is that any words written after the morale page are advanced rules, then Infantry breaks your logic by virtue of their Unit Type being located on page 62. As they are being attributed too as a standard.

That goes to show how much you've actually been paying attention to what I've been typing. I said any new rules not contained in the core rules section would be advanced rules. Infantry does not contain any new rules; therefore infantry does not break this. Sorry, try again.

Ceann wrote:
If the core rules section contains ALL basic rules, then anything located in them would be a basic rule. Unit Types are part of the core rules, just like weapon profiles are part of the core rules and psyker powers are part of the core rules. The actual listing of each of those things is not located in core rules section, precisely because they are not rules, they are profiles for the processes of the rules.

Containing "all the basic rules you need" does not mean that it does not contain references to advanced rules, at least to provide some basic definitionis. The basic rules for Unit types are that each unit has a unit type. What rules are associated with unit types come later - these are advanced rules. Weapon basic rules are that weapons have profiles; the specifics of the profile (what weapon has what profile) is not in the basic rules. (The ones in the core rulebook are in the appendix, after the Special Rules you tout as being advanced rules).

Ceann wrote:
A specific model, with a special weapon that is a boltgun... So... A tactical marine Sargent, who is a specific model, with a combi-melta, which is a boltgun with a special rule melta.
That is an application of advanced rules rules applying to a specific model. Not every model in the unit has a combi-melta, a specific model in a unit does. Use some logic here please, if a boltgun is a special kind of weapon, then all weapons are special kinds of weapons

you're starting to catch on, with some caveats...

Ceann wrote:
, therefore none of them would be special because everyone would have a special kind of weapon.

ANNNND you lost it again. Maybe it's because you are continuing to refer to any advanced rules as Special Rules. STOP IT. Even you can't (legitimately) deny that a model having a boltgun is specifically mentioned as an example of models having advanced rules. Therefore, the rules for specific weapons - their profile are treated as adavanced rules as we are told to treat boltguns as having special rules on page 13.

Ceann wrote:
,You need to have some specific criteria, such as a special rule, to make it, a special kind of weapon. Special means different from usual. This makes a lot more sense than "all boltgun are special".

I do have specific criteria. If it's not in the core rules section, it's an advanced rule. Just as the main rulebook instructs me by saying all the basic rules are in the core rules section. I do not find any new rules outside that section that are basic rules. They are not all special rules, which is where you keep having your stumbling point, but they ARE all advanced rules.

You keep forgetting the rest of BvA you are too laser focused on a single sentence.

Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.
A Calvary unit moving 12" is using the rules for movement, the movement rules state they are permitted to move their maximum distance. It is not breaking any rule.

How can a boltgun be an advanced rule? In order to BE an advanced rule you HAVE to be conflicting with a basic rule. If there is no gun that is THE "basic rule" then no weapon can be an advanced rule because it has NOTHING to conflict with. The only thing a weapon can conflict with are the rules for shooting or the rules for assault.
Your argument holds no water in practice.

You are right, they are not all rules, they are profiles, that the rules use.

 doctortom wrote:


Yes, that is the question at hand. To be fair, though, the discussion on basic vs advanced was locked because of the back and forth between Ceann and col impact. They're not having the back and forth here like they were there, and I'm waiting for col impact to respond to my last reply to him to see if he's willing to engage in an honest discussion on this.

For the point at hand, I think the differiing outflank rules make clear their intent on how to handle similar situations (of which deep strike is one) even if you are not willing to accept the RAW - we have "When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves" in the Special rules for Outflank, but "When this unit arrives from Reserves" for ouflanking embedded in Infiltrate and in Scout special rules. Since they're supposed to be the same rule, it's obvious that "this unit" = "an Outflanking unit". It treats the way it is coming out of Reserves as a qualifier and applies it to the unit; from the two statements they indicate that it is treated as an Outflanking unit from the point it declares it will Outflank and it can't change its mind (otherwise, saying "this unit" forces the unit to Outflank wouldn't be true. So, if that's true that an Outflanking unit is a unit that has declared it it coming in from Reserves via Outflank, then a Deep Striking unit would be a unit that has declared that it will deep strike and will have to follow the rules for bringing in Deep Striking units from the board.

I am not sure what continued discussion on the question at hand is going to bring.

You have already admitted that per the Rules As Written a unit that is placed in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves can simply elect to walk on the board from Reserves when it comes time to Roll for Reserves. No rule prevents this.

Now you want to engage in a discussion trying to decipher intent from the clues that GW provides to prop up some imagined rule to add to the rules we have written down. However, there is no need for any speculation. The simplest solution is that Outflanking simply refers to a unit that is using the Outflank rules to actively re-position itself. Outflank-ing, where "-ing" means the process of.

So per RAW a unit that announces that it will Deep Strike can technically still opt to move on the battlefield from Reserves. Instead of choosing the permission which involves Deep Strike-ing onto the battlefield, the unit opts for the permission of Move-ing On From Reserves.

 Charistoph wrote:

Ceann wrote:
No, actually it sounds like I wish to simply the issue, both are perspectives are based entirely off of how we view the application of the rules at a basic level. What we were doing was discussing more and more tangents, which frankly will all be resolved by addressing the core issue.

My asking those questions was an attempt at simplifying the discussion. You do not answer the questions and veer of on a tangent. That does not quantify as simplifying in any method I have heard of.

Ceann wrote:
It troubles me because as I have read the rules I have not come to your conclusion. I see logical reasons to not have this conclusion.

All based on a user construct instead of using the terms provided.

Ceann wrote:
As far as I am aware you roll to see if you are wounded for dangerous terrain, not for morale.

Then you need to review what causes a Morale Check. Under WHEN TO TEST:

• Casualties: A unit losing 25% or more of its current models during a single phase must take a Morale check at the end of that phase. There is an exception: units that lose 25% or more of their current models in the Assault phase do not take a Morale check.

If a quarter or more of a unit falls to Dangerous Terrain means a Morale Check.

Ceann wrote:
I have provided, countless times, the references, yet you choose to ignore them. I will post it again.
"For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section (pg61-71).

So you want to acknowledge "models move 6"" but ignore "For the time being, we’ll just explain". The preceding statement clearly invalidates "models move 6" as we were just told we were going to explained the rules for Infantry, not that they were a standard.

Then you also want to ignore " ]Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section (pg61-71). So if anything, it would seem that you are reading what you want to read and ignoring the rest. You also ignore that I have pointed out that the introduction tells us that the most important part of a rule will be bold and the bold part is that models may move their maximum distance. What I need to understand is why you are ignoring the entire section labeled "The Movement Phase" and skipping right over to a subsection that we were just told was going to explain infantry to us and then proclaim it gospel.

Distance is not mentioned in your quotes. A referral for Distance is not mentioned in your quotes. A "way" of moving is not the distance of moving. Nothing in these quote counters the explicit direction in Movement Distance of models moving up to 6".

This does not answer the question or the challenge. It ignores the question and challenge and provides an answer you choose to use. This has been pointed out repeatedly.

If we go by this determination, we only have Infantry Distances alone. Going by your assessment, then, what is the Movement Distance for Jet Pack? Artillery? Monstrous Creatures? Jump units when not Jumping?

It should be pointed out that Movement Distance does not restrict itself to just Infantry models, but "models" in general. That's because these are the basic models.

Well I guess lucky for us there is "Morale Phase" right?
Sorry I didn't conclude this series of events taking place for us to have a failed wound roll and fall under 25%. It was so clearly outlined.

You ask for my reference, I provide it and you ignore it, then ask for my reference again.
If you cannot dispute my references then clearly they are sufficient based on your lack of repudiation.

They are not basic model rules, they are the rules for Infantry, as we were just told they would be explained to us.
But you continue to ignore this and ignore my other points. It also states that it represents most models, not all models, but clearly that means nothing to you also.
If it doesn't represent all models, then obviously doesn't cover the entire spectrum of basic movement as a value.

The movement for those units is listed in their unit types. "In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance."
I don't see them breaking any rule except for the one that was explained to you that you take as a standard.
I lined out the statements that I need for you to explain to me how they are wrong and you continue to ignore them.
Please read "The Movement Phase" rules and explain to me how my interpretation is wrong and how I am misunderstanding that the rules will be EXPLAINED using Infantry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

 doctortom wrote:


Yes, that is the question at hand. To be fair, though, the discussion on basic vs advanced was locked because of the back and forth between Ceann and col impact. They're not having the back and forth here like they were there, and I'm waiting for col impact to respond to my last reply to him to see if he's willing to engage in an honest discussion on this.

For the point at hand, I think the differiing outflank rules make clear their intent on how to handle similar situations (of which deep strike is one) even if you are not willing to accept the RAW - we have "When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves" in the Special rules for Outflank, but "When this unit arrives from Reserves" for ouflanking embedded in Infiltrate and in Scout special rules. Since they're supposed to be the same rule, it's obvious that "this unit" = "an Outflanking unit". It treats the way it is coming out of Reserves as a qualifier and applies it to the unit; from the two statements they indicate that it is treated as an Outflanking unit from the point it declares it will Outflank and it can't change its mind (otherwise, saying "this unit" forces the unit to Outflank wouldn't be true. So, if that's true that an Outflanking unit is a unit that has declared it it coming in from Reserves via Outflank, then a Deep Striking unit would be a unit that has declared that it will deep strike and will have to follow the rules for bringing in Deep Striking units from the board.

I am not sure what continued discussion on the question at hand is going to bring.

You have already admitted that per the Rules As Written a unit that is placed in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves can simply elect to walk on the board from Reserves when it comes time to Roll for Reserves. No rule prevents this.

Now you want to engage in a discussion trying to decipher intent from the clues that GW provides to prop up some imagined rule to add to the rules we have written down. However, there is no need for any speculation. The simplest solution is that Outflanking simply refers to a unit that is using the Outflank rules to actively re-position itself. Outflank-ing, where "-ing" means the process of.

So per RAW a unit that announces that it will Deep Strike can technically still opt to move on the battlefield from Reserves. Instead of choosing the permission which involves Deep Strike-ing onto the battlefield, the unit opts for the permission of Move-ing On From Reserves.

It technically can't Col.
Cite a rule that states you can partially follow a rule.
Please at any time, cite the source, we will wait for you to find it.

Once you "declare" you are putting units in Deep Strike reserve, the "deploy as follows" is already PENDING to be resolved on the reserve rolls. You cannot choose to ignore it.
It is not a matter of "nothing permits this" the rules are ultimately permissive, you are only allowed to do what you are told to do.
Deepstrike reserves initiates using the Deep Strike rule.

The question here is what PERMITS YOU, to ignore the deployment process for deep strike or outflank.
The answer is nothing permits you too, because Outflank and Deepstrike will be located on the Army List Entry, giving them precedence over the BRB Reserve rule.
Your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.

Ceann wrote:


It technically can't Col.
Cite a rule that states you can partially follow a rule.
Please at any time, cite the source, we will wait for you to find it.

Once you "declare" you are putting units in Deep Strike reserve, the "deploy as follows" is already PENDING to be resolved on the reserve rolls. You cannot choose to ignore it.

Rule statements are only followed if they are invoked. The second half of the Deep Strike rules is simply never invoked. A unit that walks on from Reserves will never invoke the Deep Strike rule (unless it goes into Ongoing Reserves).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:

The question here is what PERMITS YOU, to ignore the deployment process for deep strike or outflank.
The answer is nothing permits you too, because Outflank and Deepstrike will be located on the Army List Entry, giving them precedence over the BRB Reserve rule.
Your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.

As already pointed out, Reserves is a special rule.


Summary of Argument

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:


It technically can't Col.
Cite a rule that states you can partially follow a rule.
Please at any time, cite the source, we will wait for you to find it.

Once you "declare" you are putting units in Deep Strike reserve, the "deploy as follows" is already PENDING to be resolved on the reserve rolls. You cannot choose to ignore it.

Rule statements are only followed if they are invoked. The second half of the Deep Strike rules is simply never invoked. A unit that walks on from Reserves will never invoke the Deep Strike rule (unless it goes into Ongoing Reserves).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:

The question here is what PERMITS YOU, to ignore the deployment process for deep strike or outflank.
The answer is nothing permits you too, because Outflank and Deepstrike will be located on the Army List Entry, giving them precedence over the BRB Reserve rule.
Your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.

As already pointed out, Reserves is a special rule.


Summary of Argument

Spoiler:

The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.

The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.

Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.

Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.

If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.


Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.

"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".



Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.

Deepstrike in its entirety is invoked once you declare the units are deep striking.
I am asking you to post the rule and page that specify that you ignore this.
That you can partially use a rule.
It seems you cannot provide that information, likely because it doesn't exist, so you are wrong by lack of repudiation.
Reserves might be a special rule for missions, it however is not located in the codex of a unit, which I can assure you that Outflank or Deepstrike will be noted on the codex or Army List Entry for a unit that has them.

BRB Reserve rules have no precedence and are overridden.

Ceann wrote:
You ask for my reference, I provide it and you ignore it, then ask for my reference again.
If you cannot dispute my references then clearly they are sufficient based on your lack of repudiation.

I have disputed your references based on the questions and standards being set. I set the standards in the question. You provided a quote that does not address what was requested. I am within my full capabilities of ignoring a reference which does not meet the required standards.

Ceann wrote:
They are not basic model rules, they are the rules for Infantry, as we were just told they would be explained to us.
But you continue to ignore this and ignore my other points. It also states that it represents most models, not all models, but clearly that means nothing to you also.
If it doesn't represent all models, then obviously doesn't cover the entire spectrum of basic movement as a value.

"This represents most creatures moving at a reasonable pace", isn't a directive, but a descriptive.

And while it may not represent everything, it is what is stated in the basic rules without directives to refer to something else. Again, nothing about referring to the unit types to find out the limit of a model's movement, just "Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase," being the only thing that actually pertains to any distance we refer to in this section of the book.

Ceann wrote:
The movement for those units is listed in their unit types.

An actual quote is required for this. This is never stated. Nor is it supported when we actually review the Unit Types section. There are many units which do not define their movement distance in that section. I have already

Ceann wrote:
"In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance."
I don't see them breaking any rule except for the one that was explained to you that you take as a standard.
I lined out the statements that I need for you to explain to me how they are wrong and you continue to ignore them.
Please read "The Movement Phase" rules and explain to me how my interpretation is wrong and how I am misunderstanding that the rules will be EXPLAINED using Infantry.

And because that statement of moving 6" is the definitive standard, anything else is breaking that rule. You have permission to do it from the unit type itself, unlike changing how a unit in Reserves deploys, but nothing in the Movement Phase tells you that the Unit Type will change this Distance. The explanations have been given. You see standards where there are none explicitly written. I have given you the necessary requirements in the questions I have asked, but you refuse to accept where they may lead you. I am done with this tangent, as you have refused to answer any of the questions I have posed properly..

Ceann wrote:


Deepstrike in its entirety is invoked once you declare the units are deep striking.
I am asking you to post the rule and page that specify that you ignore this.
That you can partially use a rule.
It seems you cannot provide that information, likely because it doesn't exist, so you are wrong by lack of repudiation.
Reserves might be a special rule for missions, it however is not located in the codex of a unit, which I can assure you that Outflank or Deepstrike will be noted on the codex or Army List Entry for a unit that has them.

BRB Reserve rules have no precedence and are overridden.

The Deep Strike rule is never ignored. The second half of the Deep Strike rule is simply never triggered since the unit elected Moving On From Reserves instead. The Reserves rule is never overridden since BvA does not apply.


Summary of Argument




Also, this is how we determine which rule is which

Just to clarify, are you saying that you roll for reserves and then decide how the figure comes on, or declare how its coming on and then roll?

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
Just to clarify, are you saying that you roll for reserves and then decide how the figure comes on, or declare how its coming on and then roll?

Cheers

Andrew

I specify that the unit is going to deploy normally before making the roll for arrival from Reserves.

 Charistoph wrote:

Ceann wrote:
You ask for my reference, I provide it and you ignore it, then ask for my reference again.
If you cannot dispute my references then clearly they are sufficient based on your lack of repudiation.

I have disputed your references based on the questions and standards being set. I set the standards in the question. You provided a quote that does not address what was requested. I am within my full capabilities of ignoring a reference which does not meet the required standards.

Ceann wrote:
They are not basic model rules, they are the rules for Infantry, as we were just told they would be explained to us.
But you continue to ignore this and ignore my other points. It also states that it represents most models, not all models, but clearly that means nothing to you also.
If it doesn't represent all models, then obviously doesn't cover the entire spectrum of basic movement as a value.

"This represents most creatures moving at a reasonable pace", isn't a directive, but a descriptive.

And while it may not represent everything, it is what is stated in the basic rules without directives to refer to something else. Again, nothing about referring to the unit types to find out the limit of a model's movement, just "Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase," being the only thing that actually pertains to any distance we refer to in this section of the book.

Ceann wrote:
The movement for those units is listed in their unit types.

An actual quote is required for this. This is never stated. Nor is it supported when we actually review the Unit Types section. There are many units which do not define their movement distance in that section. I have already

Ceann wrote:
"In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance."
I don't see them breaking any rule except for the one that was explained to you that you take as a standard.
I lined out the statements that I need for you to explain to me how they are wrong and you continue to ignore them.
Please read "The Movement Phase" rules and explain to me how my interpretation is wrong and how I am misunderstanding that the rules will be EXPLAINED using Infantry.

And because that statement of moving 6" is the definitive standard, anything else is breaking that rule. You have permission to do it from the unit type itself, unlike changing how a unit in Reserves deploys, but nothing in the Movement Phase tells you that the Unit Type will change this Distance. The explanations have been given. You see standards where there are none explicitly written. I have given you the necessary requirements in the questions I have asked, but you refuse to accept where they may lead you. I am done with this tangent, as you have refused to answer any of the questions I have posed properly..

All of your arguments stem from this "Models move up to 6"
The fact that "models move 6" is being declared as an explanation prior to it being stated, invalidates it as a standard.
You cannot repudiate this so you ignore it.

For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by
far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be
discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section(pg 61-71)

This entire statement including the page numbers in the physical BRB tell us exactly what movement applies too and tells us that Infantry will be used to explain the rules.
"Models move up to 6" is an explanation. If anyone is seeing standards where they aren't written it is you, as Infantry is never claimed as a standard, you assume this after being told it will be explained.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
Just to clarify, are you saying that you roll for reserves and then decide how the figure comes on, or declare how its coming on and then roll?

Cheers

Andrew

I specify that the unit is going to deploy normally before making the roll for arrival from Reserves.

You cannot specify that.
The reserve roll is OVERRIDDEN by the deep strike roll.
If you declared it as coming in via deepstrike, then it does.

You have yet to provide a reference that permits you to do this.

Ceann wrote:


You cannot specify that.
The reserve roll is OVERRIDDEN by the deep strike roll.
If you declared it as coming in via deepstrike, then it does.

You have yet to provide a reference that permits you to do this.

Reserves is a special rule and is never overridden by BvA.

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:


You cannot specify that.
The reserve roll is OVERRIDDEN by the deep strike roll.
If you declared it as coming in via deepstrike, then it does.

You have yet to provide a reference that permits you to do this.

Reserves is a special rule and is never overridden by BvA.

I have a SM Librarian.
I take Terminator Armor.
He gains Deep Strike.

"On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex.
Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence."

Reserves conflicts with deepstrike when we are deploying our units.
Deepstrike came from the Army List Entry.
Deepstrike has precedence.
Goodbye "Reserves"

col, I have no issue with that, as long as the roll is clearly stated then I see no problem as to how it enters.

Ceann, A question, if a deep striking unit mishaps and rolls a delay result, how does it enter the board when it is allowed to do so? Because if we follow your insistence that we follow the deep strike rules verbatim, a delay result forces the unit into ongoing reserves and not deep strike reserves. Ergo it would then be unable to enter the board in any other way except by walking.

Cheers

Andrew

Ceann wrote:


I have a SM Librarian.
I take Terminator Armor.
He gains Deep Strike.

"On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex.
Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence."

Reserves conflicts with deepstrike when we are deploying our units.
Deepstrike came from the Army List Entry.
Deepstrike has precedence.
Goodbye "Reserves"

The rules for Reserves and Deep Strike are printed in the BRB. Neither overrides the other. They are both special rules printed in the BRB.

 AndrewC wrote:
col, I have no issue with that, as long as the roll is clearly stated then I see no problem as to how it enters.

Ceann, A question, if a deep striking unit mishaps and rolls a delay result, how does it enter the board when it is allowed to do so? Because if we follow your insistence that we follow the deep strike rules verbatim, a delay result forces the unit into ongoing reserves and not deep strike reserves. Ergo it would then be unable to enter the board in any other way except by walking.

Cheers

Andrew

The issue is that Deepstrike states that you "roll for the arrival" and then "deploy as follows"
The roll for arrival is overriding the normal reserve roll, arrivaing and misshaping would satisfy Deep Strike.

The rule for Deepstrike also states that when it is put into reserves you have the option to put it in Deep Strike reserves.
So you would again be able to declare which reserve you would be placing it in.
So you can declare whether it will walk on or whether it will deepstrike from ongoing reserves.
You however cannot pick one and then choose the other next turn.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:


I have a SM Librarian.
I take Terminator Armor.
He gains Deep Strike.

"On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex.
Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence."

Reserves conflicts with deepstrike when we are deploying our units.
Deepstrike came from the Army List Entry.
Deepstrike has precedence.
Goodbye "Reserves"

The rules for Reserves and Deep Strike are printed in the BRB. Neither overrides the other. They are both special rules printed in the BRB.

Incorrect, the words "Deep Strike" will be printed on the special rules section of a unit's Army List Entry with deep strike.
"Reserves" will not be.

BvA is satisfied.

Ceann wrote:


Incorrect, the words "Deep Strike" will be printed on the special rules section of a unit's Army List Entry with deep strike.
"Reserves" will not be.

BvA is satisfied.

The rules for Reserves and Deep Strike are printed in the BRB. Neither overrides the other. They are both special rules printed in the BRB.



Summary of Argument




Also, this is how we determine which rule is which

Ceann wrote:All of your arguments stem from this "Models move up to 6"
The fact that "models move 6" is being declared as an explanation prior to it being stated, invalidates it as a standard.
You cannot repudiate this so you ignore it.

For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by
far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be
discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section(pg 61-71)

This entire statement including the page numbers in the physical BRB tell us exactly what movement applies too and tells us that Infantry will be used to explain the rules.
"Models move up to 6" is an explanation. If anyone is seeing standards where they aren't written it is you, as Infantry is never claimed as a standard, you assume this after being told it will be explained.

The phrase, "Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase" is not part of the same subsection as the quote you are going off of. It is a flat directive given for Movement Distance. By placing it as part of the explanation of the section you are taking it out of context.

I repudiate it having any valid connections that you are assuming because it does not state that which would support your premise. I have given the reasons why. You ignore them.

And you still are not willing to answer the questions asked. You prefer the politician's route and answer the question you want to give.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:
The issue is that Deepstrike states that you "roll for the arrival" and then "deploy as follows"
The roll for arrival is overriding the normal reserve roll, arrivaing and misshaping would satisfy Deep Strike.

The roll for arrival is not overriding the normal Reserves roll, it includes it:

Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows

Nothing is overriding the Roll. However, it does change how the unit arriving from Reserves from the normal method of deploying.

 Charistoph wrote:

Ceann wrote:All of your arguments stem from this "Models move up to 6"
The fact that "models move 6" is being declared as an explanation prior to it being stated, invalidates it as a standard.
You cannot repudiate this so you ignore it.

For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by
far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be
discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section(pg 61-71)

This entire statement including the page numbers in the physical BRB tell us exactly what movement applies too and tells us that Infantry will be used to explain the rules.
"Models move up to 6" is an explanation. If anyone is seeing standards where they aren't written it is you, as Infantry is never claimed as a standard, you assume this after being told it will be explained.

The phrase, "Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase" is not part of the same subsection as the quote you are going off of. It is a flat directive given for Movement Distance. By placing it as part of the explanation of the section you are taking it out of context.

I repudiate it having any valid connections that you are assuming because it does not state that which would support your premise. I have given the reasons why. You ignore them.

And you still are not willing to answer the questions asked. You prefer the politician's route and answer the question you want to give.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:
The issue is that Deepstrike states that you "roll for the arrival" and then "deploy as follows"
The roll for arrival is overriding the normal reserve roll, arrivaing and misshaping would satisfy Deep Strike.

The roll for arrival is not overriding the normal Reserves roll, it includes it:

Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows

Nothing is overriding the Roll. However, it does change how the unit arriving from Reserves from the normal method of deploying.

"explain how squads of Infantry move"
"Models move up to 6"

Seems like it is explaining them well enough for me.
There is no other logical conclusion for what they could be explaining, considering they just said they would tell us how they move.
Models do not move "up to 6".
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.

This is BOLD and per the Introduction, makes it the most IMPORTANT aspect of movement.
More important than..."models move up to 6", which is not bold.

"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units"
You roll for the arrival USING the rules for reserve rolls.
You might use that rule, but their arrival has been replaced deepstrike.

Ceann wrote:
"explain how squads of Infantry move"
"Models move up to 6"

Seems like it is explaining them well enough for me.
There is no other logical conclusion for what they could be explaining, considering they just said they would tell us how they move.
Models do not move "up to 6".
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.

This is BOLD and per the Introduction, makes it the most IMPORTANT aspect of movement.
More important than..."models move up to 6", which is not bold.

One states what the Movement Distance is for basic rules. One does not. Neither tells us to refer to Unit Type for distance. It really is that simple.

Ceann wrote:
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units"
You roll for the arrival USING the rules for reserve rolls.
You might use that rule, but their arrival has been replaced deepstrike.

As I said, the method of deploying is changing, the roll is not changed.

Ceann wrote:


"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units"
You roll for the arrival USING the rules for reserve rolls.
You might use that rule, but their arrival has been replaced deepstrike.

The unit can simply elect to be Moving On From Reserves instead.

Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn.

The player has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield. No rule takes away this permission or prevents the player from doing so.



Summary of Argument




Also, this is how we determine which rule is which

 Charistoph wrote:

Ceann wrote:
"explain how squads of Infantry move"
"Models move up to 6"

Seems like it is explaining them well enough for me.
There is no other logical conclusion for what they could be explaining, considering they just said they would tell us how they move.
Models do not move "up to 6".
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.

This is BOLD and per the Introduction, makes it the most IMPORTANT aspect of movement.
More important than..."models move up to 6", which is not bold.

One states what the Movement Distance is for basic rules. One does not. Neither tells us to refer to Unit Type for distance. It really is that simple.

Ceann wrote:
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units"
You roll for the arrival USING the rules for reserve rolls.
You might use that rule, but their arrival has been replaced deepstrike.

As I said, the method of deploying is changing, the roll is not changed.

Except it isn't that simple.

You need to explain how you are separating "explain how infantry move" from "models move 6".
If you are told something will be explained to you, it is not illogical to take the next thing you are told as the thing that is being explained.
You also need to explain the statement after "models move up to 6" which is...

"This represents most creatures moving at a reasonable pace"

Clearly it doesn't represent all creatures moving.
Only the ones explained, as they are the most common.

If it only represents most models, then it doesn't represent all models, making it not a standard because a standard would apply to all models.
Yet you have asserted it does apply to all models, making it a standard. It CLEARLY states most, not all.

Ceann wrote:
Except it isn't that simple.

You need to explain how you are separating "explain how infantry move" from "models move 6".
If you are told something will be explained to you, it is not illogical to take the next thing you are told as the thing that is being explained.
You also need to explain the statement after "models move up to 6" which is...

"This represents most creatures moving at a reasonable pace"

Clearly it doesn't represent all creatures moving.
Only the ones explained, as they are the most common.

If it only represents most models, then it doesn't represent all models, making it not a standard because a standard would apply to all models.
Yet you have asserted it does apply to all models, making it a standard. It CLEARLY states most, not all.

The statement of distance is a directive. The rest is an explanation as to why this distance is stated. Do you know the difference between a directive and an explanation? It is the difference between "what" and "why". The Introduction doesn't say "what", just "why".

Basic rules apply unless it states otherwise. Movement Distance only states one distance and does not state a directive to look elsewhere. Unit Types, which are an advanced ruleset, do state otherwise. At no other point before Unit Types is it actually stated that models can move more than 6" in the Movement Phase.

It is that simple. Is this clear?

 Charistoph wrote:

Ceann wrote:
Except it isn't that simple.

You need to explain how you are separating "explain how infantry move" from "models move 6".
If you are told something will be explained to you, it is not illogical to take the next thing you are told as the thing that is being explained.
You also need to explain the statement after "models move up to 6" which is...

"This represents most creatures moving at a reasonable pace"

Clearly it doesn't represent all creatures moving.
Only the ones explained, as they are the most common.

If it only represents most models, then it doesn't represent all models, making it not a standard because a standard would apply to all models.
Yet you have asserted it does apply to all models, making it a standard. It CLEARLY states most, not all.

The statement of distance is a directive. The rest is an explanation as to why this distance is stated. Do you know the difference between a directive and an explanation? It is the difference between "what" and "why". The Introduction doesn't say "what", just "why".

Basic rules apply unless it states otherwise. Movement Distance only states one distance and does not state a directive to look elsewhere. Unit Types, which are an advanced ruleset, do state otherwise. At no other point before Unit Types is it actually stated that models can move more than 6" in the Movement Phase.

It is that simple. Is this clear?

No, it isn't clear. You can't cherry pick one sentence and follow it verbatim. Prior to your model moves 6 we were told that we would be explained infantry.

Immediately after it states it applies to most models, not all models.

Your argument is built upon this statement being a standard that applies to everything. I would argue that stating it applies to most models and stating that other movements would be discussed later is clearly stating otherwise.

It does say basic rules apply to all models, it doesn't say infantry rules apply to all models. I am also quite sure that the movement section knows more about movement than page 13.

Ceann wrote:

The rule for Deepstrike also states that when it is put into reserves you have the option to put it in Deep Strike reserves.
So you would again be able to declare which reserve you would be placing it in.
So you can declare whether it will walk on or whether it will deepstrike from ongoing reserves.
You however cannot pick one and then choose the other next turn.

Citation on that please.

In order to Deep Strike the models must start the game in reserves, and the declaration made at that time. Once the unit has come out of reserves there is no option to declare Deep Strike again. Ongoing reserves is not reserves, for example ongoing reserves does not roll to see if they arrive, they simply turn up next turn entering the board following the normal rules for Reserves. Please note the 'normal rules'. A case can be made that Deep Strike is not the normal rules for reserves.

However this is being taken off at a tangent to the original question. So I'll stop

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:

Ceann wrote:

The rule for Deepstrike also states that when it is put into reserves you have the option to put it in Deep Strike reserves.
So you would again be able to declare which reserve you would be placing it in.
So you can declare whether it will walk on or whether it will deepstrike from ongoing reserves.
You however cannot pick one and then choose the other next turn.

Citation on that please.

In order to Deep Strike the models must start the game in reserves, and the declaration made at that time. Once the unit has come out of reserves there is no option to declare Deep Strike again. Ongoing reserves is not reserves, for example ongoing reserves does not roll to see if they arrive, they simply turn up next turn entering the board following the normal rules for Reserves. Please note the 'normal rules'. A case can be made that Deep Strike is not the normal rules for reserves.

However this is being taken off at a tangent to the original question. So I'll stop

Cheers

Andrew

The rule for deepstrike is an option WHEN the unit is being put into reserves, ongoing reserves is just another sub category of reserves just like deep strike is.

"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."

If you choose to tell them, then you are using deep strike and they go into deep strike reserve and follow the rules for deep strike.
You are still following the rules for reserves, as it states. Ongoing reserves bypasses the roll.
Deepstrike tells you to refer to the rules for the roll for arrival, the rules for Reserves are presently telling you to use ongoing reserves, this however does not again mitigate "deploy as follows".
You are only told to refer to the rules for Reserves for the ROLL, not for the arrival/deployment. So in this circumstance you simply wouldn't roll and would proceed.

The deploying as follows is directly tied into "telling your opponent". If you do one, then you are doing the other.
Also remember that if you misshaped, the unit never actually deployed, so it never actually left reserves in the first place.
It just goes into the subcategory of ongoing reserves.
The "start of the game" criteria is still being applied from the start of the game.

The issue is that you cannot declare one and then do the other.

Ceann wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:

Ceann wrote:

The rule for Deepstrike also states that when it is put into reserves you have the option to put it in Deep Strike reserves.
So you would again be able to declare which reserve you would be placing it in.
So you can declare whether it will walk on or whether it will deepstrike from ongoing reserves.
You however cannot pick one and then choose the other next turn.

Citation on that please.

In order to Deep Strike the models must start the game in reserves, and the declaration made at that time. Once the unit has come out of reserves there is no option to declare Deep Strike again. Ongoing reserves is not reserves, for example ongoing reserves does not roll to see if they arrive, they simply turn up next turn entering the board following the normal rules for Reserves. Please note the 'normal rules'. A case can be made that Deep Strike is not the normal rules for reserves.

However this is being taken off at a tangent to the original question. So I'll stop

Cheers

Andrew

The rule for deepstrike is an option WHEN the unit is being put into reserves, ongoing reserves is just another sub category of reserves just like deep strike is.

"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."

If you choose to tell them, then you are using deep strike and they go into deep strike reserve and follow the rules for deep strike.
You are still following the rules for reserves, as it states. Ongoing reserves bypasses the roll.
Deepstrike tells you to refer to the rules for the roll for arrival, the rules for Reserves are presently telling you to use ongoing reserves, this however does not again mitigate "deploy as follows".
You are only told to refer to the rules for Reserves for the ROLL, not for the arrival/deployment. So in this circumstance you simply wouldn't roll and would proceed.

The deploying as follows is directly tied into "telling your opponent". If you do one, then you are doing the other.
Also remember that if you misshaped, the unit never actually deployed, so it never actually left reserves in the first place.
It just goes into the subcategory of ongoing reserves.
The "start of the game" criteria is still being applied from the start of the game.

The issue is that you cannot declare one and then do the other.

PMed so as not to derail the thread any further.

AndrewC wrote:In order to Deep Strike the models must start the game in reserves, and the declaration made at that time. Once the unit has come out of reserves there is no option to declare Deep Strike again. Ongoing reserves is not reserves, for example ongoing reserves does not roll to see if they arrive, they simply turn up next turn entering the board following the normal rules for Reserves. Please note the 'normal rules'. A case can be made that Deep Strike is not the normal rules for reserves.

It should be noted that aside from going in to it during the game and not rolling afterwards, Ongoing Reserves is noted as following all the rules of Reserves.

That having been said, there are several cases where it specifies both Reserves and Ongoing Reserves in the same sentence as if they were different, but that is only apply for needs of precedence.

For what its worth, the GW FAQ series does note that when a Deep Striking unit Mishaps, it can Deep Strike again, so long as it isn't a one-shot Deep Strike like the Necron's Veil of Darkness. This would require Ongoing Reserves to be a type of Reserves, as Deep Strike does not allow for being declared when putting it in to Ongoing Reserves, it only states for Reserves.

AndrewC wrote:However this is being taken off at a tangent to the original question. So I'll stop

Actually, this is part of the original question, how Reserves operates in connection with Deep Strike and Outflank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:
No, it isn't clear. You can't cherry pick one sentence and follow it verbatim. Prior to your model moves 6 we were told that we would be explained infantry.

Pot, meet microwave.

You are assuming I am cherry picking because you do not want me to be right. I am not cherry picking. I have been given one instruction for maximum distance in the Movement Phase. It is not restricted by Unit Type in any form at this point.

Ceann wrote:
Immediately after it states it applies to most models, not all models.

No, it states, "most creatures", not models. The sentence also does not extend that range or how that distance may be different. These are basic rules. Advanced rules come later. There are many things which affect the maximum distance a model may move in the Movement Phase from Unit Type, to Special Rules, to Terrain interaction.

You are jumping to conclusions that any movement distance is basic when this only gives you one maximum distance for movement in this section until we get to Terrain.

Ceann wrote:
Your argument is built upon this statement being a standard that applies to everything. I would argue that stating it applies to most models and stating that other movements would be discussed later is clearly stating otherwise.

Just stating that it will be covered later does not mean that it automatically includes it in to basic rules. If they were meant to be in basic rules, it would be stated point blank right there to use the Movement Distance listed in the Unit Type, or it would state which Unit Type had which Distance in this section. Those exceptions are specifically stated in a section outside of the Core Rules, which are the basic rules.

Ceann wrote:
It does say basic rules apply to all models, it doesn't say infantry rules apply to all models. I am also quite sure that the movement section knows more about movement than page 13.

But that does not mean we ignore page 13. We do not ignore basic rules without directive. Certain unit types tell us to ignore the basic rules regarding movement distance, but unless we are dealing with Terrain, the basic rules only give one single maximum distance.

In a few months time, this will be not but a cow's opinion, as the rules will change to use a stat on the Characteristic Profile.

 Charistoph wrote:

AndrewC wrote:In order to Deep Strike the models must start the game in reserves, and the declaration made at that time. Once the unit has come out of reserves there is no option to declare Deep Strike again. Ongoing reserves is not reserves, for example ongoing reserves does not roll to see if they arrive, they simply turn up next turn entering the board following the normal rules for Reserves. Please note the 'normal rules'. A case can be made that Deep Strike is not the normal rules for reserves.

It should be noted that aside from going in to it during the game and not rolling afterwards, Ongoing Reserves is noted as following all the rules of Reserves.

That having been said, there are several cases where it specifies both Reserves and Ongoing Reserves in the same sentence as if they were different, but that is only apply for needs of precedence.

For what its worth, the GW FAQ series does note that when a Deep Striking unit Mishaps, it can Deep Strike again, so long as it isn't a one-shot Deep Strike like the Necron's Veil of Darkness. This would require Ongoing Reserves to be a type of Reserves, as Deep Strike does not allow for being declared when putting it in to Ongoing Reserves, it only states for Reserves.

AndrewC wrote:However this is being taken off at a tangent to the original question. So I'll stop

Actually, this is part of the original question, how Reserves operates in connection with Deep Strike and Outflank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:
No, it isn't clear. You can't cherry pick one sentence and follow it verbatim. Prior to your model moves 6 we were told that we would be explained infantry.

Pot, meet microwave.

You are assuming I am cherry picking because you do not want me to be right. I am not cherry picking. I have been given one instruction for maximum distance in the Movement Phase. It is not restricted by Unit Type in any form at this point.

Ceann wrote:
Immediately after it states it applies to most models, not all models.

No, it states, "most creatures", not models. The sentence also does not extend that range or how that distance may be different. These are basic rules. Advanced rules come later. There are many things which affect the maximum distance a model may move in the Movement Phase from Unit Type, to Special Rules, to Terrain interaction.

You are jumping to conclusions that any movement distance is basic when this only gives you one maximum distance for movement in this section until we get to Terrain.

Ceann wrote:
Your argument is built upon this statement being a standard that applies to everything. I would argue that stating it applies to most models and stating that other movements would be discussed later is clearly stating otherwise.

Just stating that it will be covered later does not mean that it automatically includes it in to basic rules. If they were meant to be in basic rules, it would be stated point blank right there to use the Movement Distance listed in the Unit Type, or it would state which Unit Type had which Distance in this section. Those exceptions are specifically stated in a section outside of the Core Rules, which are the basic rules.

Ceann wrote:
It does say basic rules apply to all models, it doesn't say infantry rules apply to all models. I am also quite sure that the movement section knows more about movement than page 13.

But that does not mean we ignore page 13. We do not ignore basic rules without directive. Certain unit types tell us to ignore the basic rules regarding movement distance, but unless we are dealing with Terrain, the basic rules only give one single maximum distance.

In a few months time, this will be not but a cow's opinion, as the rules will change to use a stat on the Characteristic Profile.

They did not add these statements for fun.
We aren't ignoring page 13.
You are ignoring "for starters we will explain Infantry"
And "This represents most creatures moving at a reasonable pace"
And "In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance."
And "Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section."

If they were advanced rules as you claim, then the statement about movement distance is irrelevant and they would move whatever distance is claimed by virtue of being an advanced rule, the statement would be unnecessary, yet it is included and bold.

We were told they would explain Infantry, they are now explaining Infantry models. This doesn't mean that an Infantry models movement is the standard.
If it was, again as you claim, then it would be state "all models" yet it doesn't, it also wouldn't state that it represents "most" which it does.
The explaining of Infantry and "models move 6" are directly connected to each other. Your point only holds true by discarding that connection.

There is no "standard" for shooting, the shooting phase lines out the sequence, we follow the sequence.
There is no "standard" for assaulting, the assault phase lines out the sequence, we follow the sequence.
There is no "standard" for the psychic phase, we follow the sequence.

But for some reason for movement you have this bizarre idea that it does possess a single numerical standard that nothing else does. Instead of just following the sequence for movement.
All movement values fit into the sequence of moving, just like all weapon profiles fit into the sequence of shooting or assaulting.

Your assumption falls out of line with the phase and sequence standards set by all of the other phases.
My interpretation does not, because I realize they are explaining Infantry models, not a standard.

Ceann wrote:


The rule for deepstrike is an option WHEN the unit is being put into reserves, ongoing reserves is just another sub category of reserves just like deep strike is.

"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."

If you choose to tell them, then you are using deep strike and they go into deep strike reserve and follow the rules for deep strike.
You are still following the rules for reserves, as it states. Ongoing reserves bypasses the roll.
Deepstrike tells you to refer to the rules for the roll for arrival, the rules for Reserves are presently telling you to use ongoing reserves, this however does not again mitigate "deploy as follows".
You are only told to refer to the rules for Reserves for the ROLL, not for the arrival/deployment. So in this circumstance you simply wouldn't roll and would proceed.

The deploying as follows is directly tied into "telling your opponent". If you do one, then you are doing the other.
Also remember that if you misshaped, the unit never actually deployed, so it never actually left reserves in the first place.
It just goes into the subcategory of ongoing reserves.
The "start of the game" criteria is still being applied from the start of the game.

The issue is that you cannot declare one and then do the other.

Merely announcing that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike does not actually take away the option to simply Move On From Reserves when it comes time to Roll For Reserves. The permission to Move On From Reserves is still fully available and no rule prevents it. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.


Summary of Argument




Also, this is how we determine which rule is which