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Brexit has certainly highlighted the quality and integrity of our Mps. But this whole ridiculous situation came about because people voted it into being.

Not that I blame all brexit voters. Most have spent decades being lied to. Others, and enough to have changed the vote, knew better and did it anyway.

It wouldn't be a big deal if it wasn't such an impossible prospect.

Chicken and egg.

The referendum was only possible because MPs voted to have it.

MPs were only able to vote for it because people voted for a Conservative government.

So, the position now taken by the British Government makes the Irish backstop impossible, going back on what was agreed in December.

Unless there is some change, the EU must be obliged to withdraw it's offer of a transition period, meaning the current trajectory is for hard brexit in March next year.

I wonder if the EU will do it. The capital flight alone might scare some sense into the Tories. But who knows?

Thankfully NI businesses have a degree of security now they have a guarantee that their will be no border in the Irish Sea. I know for my own buisiness and NI largest businesses a border in the Irish Sea would kill us. Well done JRM

 Knockagh wrote:
Thankfully NI businesses have a degree of security now they have a guarantee that their will be no border in the Irish Sea. I know for my own buisiness and NI largest businesses a border in the Irish Sea would kill us. Well done JRM

Except of course 55% of your trade from NI goes to the EU. 31% of that goes RoI. If you mean JRM has just crippled the region then, and being sarcastic, then yes you are correct.

Anyway it's all a bit of a moot point. After all there can never be a border in the Irish sea. That would require an impossible amount of infrastructure. In reality it means customs checks at either the NI ports or the English/Scottish/Welsh ports. If you put border controls at the ports in England, Scotland and Wales then you still meet the requirement as the border is in those countries. So hard borders there. It does, however, mean that the costs for leaving are only based on English, Welsh and Scottish soil which in the end, apart from the latter, voted for this calamity anyway.

The alternative is a hard border between NI/Eire which would fly in the face of Good Friday agreement. Though I'm fairly certain there are elements of the Tory hard right that wouldn't mind a good 'blowing up' once in a while. They can get their rifles out and then start hunting humans as a bit of a game.

Why the feth are they making this so difficult? EFTA. fething EFTA, it’s right there. I knew our politicians were gak but I couldn’t have imagined that they’d be this gak.

I would really love to know where on earth it mentions no hard border between the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland in the Good Friday Agreement. I know it says there will be a border in Ireland as long as the people still want it (and they do). It also says Northern Ireland will remain a full member of the UK. But it doesn’t say anywhere that there can’t be a customs border or specify what type of border there should be in Ireland.

Maybe you can tell me where it says this about the border.

The market in RoI is tiny compared to the UK. And any access to EU markets of course we want them but so does the rest of the UK. But we also want access to other markets.

 Knockagh wrote:
I would really love to know where on earth it mentions no hard border between the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland in the Good Friday Agreement. I know it says there will be a border in Ireland as long as the people still want it (and they do). It also says Northern Ireland will remain a full member of the UK. But it doesn’t say anywhere that there can’t be a customs border or specify what type of border there should be in Ireland.

Maybe you can tell me where it says this about the border.

The market in RoI is tiny compared to the UK. And any access to EU markets of course we want them but so does the rest of the UK. But we also want access to other markets.

But what it does state is about the rights of the individual. There's no specific clause that states a customs border can't be had. But it does say the rights of an individual have to be recognised and respected which includes place of residence, ethnic background and so forth. A hard border works against this is as it will discriminate against those that think their place of residence is Ireland and that is their nationality. It doesn't affect those that think they are British because they already live there and have the freedom to travel throughout Britain. As such s hard border discriminate against someone who perceives they are Irish and should be able to travel freely throughout.

21% of exports from NI go to Eire. That really isn't a tiny fraction of the market. About 50% of you trade goes to the UK. Another 10% goes to the rest of the EU. If you are happy to let that slide then fine, but there will be a huge cost both in terms of implementing new checks and less income to the region.

 Knockagh wrote:
I would really love to know where on earth it mentions no hard border between the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland in the Good Friday Agreement. I know it says there will be a border in Ireland as long as the people still want it (and they do). It also says Northern Ireland will remain a full member of the UK. But it doesn’t say anywhere that there can’t be a customs border or specify what type of border there should be in Ireland.

Maybe you can tell me where it says this about the border.

The market in RoI is tiny compared to the UK. And any access to EU markets of course we want them but so does the rest of the UK. But we also want access to other markets.

It doesn't as far as I can tell, but here's an expert opinion on the matter:

“Having a soft border was crucial because that meant the issue of identity was really removed from the table,” Jonathan Powell, the U.K.’s chief negotiator on the Good Friday Agreement, told me. “You could live in Northern Ireland all your life and be Irish (have an Irish passport, never notice there was a border), or you could be British, or you could be both. If you have a hard border and we go back to the concrete blocks on small roads and the border point crossings and all that, then the identity issue is reopened.”

Sauce: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/04/good-friday-agreement-20th-anniversary/557393/

Knockagh, are you seriously arguing "It's not explicitly spelled out in the GFA, therefore a hard border will be just fine"?

Because if it's "just" a customs border, allowing free movement of people, you just KNOW that within weeks the Daily Mail will be howling about "ILLEGALS COMING FROM SOUTHERN IRELAND VIA CAIRNRYAN TO TAKE ALL OUR JOBS" and then you're back to border checks of some description somewhere.

Actually, that's a point - it's ages since I got the ferry. Do you need any ID at the moment?

If we end up with a Hard Border, we will have Irish reunification much sooner than I expected. Unionists shooting themselves in the foot.

What a lot of whataboutery. Utter nonsense.
The agreement is built on the self determination on NI and the obligation of the minority community to respect that. The fact that the republican community have never lived up to that obigation is why we are having the fuss. They still won’t even say the words Northern Ireland never mind accept the will of the majority. Which is that we remain an integral part of the UK, regardless of what happens in any trade agreements.
Anyone can have an Irish passport so long as they have a grandparent from there. They could live in America, Germany or Timbuktu. You could be from China and complete a 5 year degree in Dublin and you can be a citizen.
Tony Blair, Jonathan Powell and the Labour Party gangster who added to agreements and made dirty little back room deals after the GFA with the IRA are the reason for much of the anger in the unionist community here. They behaved appallingly and have zero credibility.

No one wants a hard border. The EU are just using the RoI as a beating stick for the UK as are remainers. But there is a very real possibility of a border being forced on us across the sea. And this is the real threat a border against the wishes of the people if Northern Ireland.

So you are not at all worried about the huge increase in support for reunification?

Just to make the point that a hard border in the Irish Sea is entirely feasible. There are only three ferry ports in Northern Ireland to be concerned with, and I think only one airport handling freight.

 Da Boss wrote:
So you are not at all worried about the huge increase in support for reunification?

Not at all. Nationalism has risen and fallen in popularity within the RC community for ever. I think though they would run a mile from it over the loss of the NHS and many other British values and rights they currently enjoy.

Long term, and Irish history is always long term, one of the most interesting developments over the last decade has been the total collapse of the power in Ireland, north and south of the RC church. The church has always played a unifying role for nationalism and republicans. It will be interesting to see how that is maintained if that structure starts to disintegrate. Protestants have never had a unifying church and that’s one reason politically we differ so much. The GAA tries, fairly successfully in some areas to fill the same role in much the same way as the church. Who knows, but i definitely see the dynamic within the traditional RC/nationalist community changing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Just to make the point that a hard border in the Irish Sea is entirely feasible. There are only three ferry ports in Northern Ireland to be concerned with, and I think only one airport handling freight.

Any border is feasible. Their might be 3 ports but there are 1000s of landing spots for small crafts. People cross the Irish Sea daily not using the 3 main ports. There are many many small ports the length of Scotland and NI. I live just outside Carrickfergus, boats come and go from Scotland and England all day.

The UK has more suitable small harbours and beaches for landing than nearly anywhere in Europe.

It has never been feasible to secure them all, but that doesn't matter. In terms of real international trade the important thing for customs is the freight transferring ports.

I'm a remainer in the mouth breathing brexit heartlands in the north. I am in the next town over from Hartlepool which has around 70% of it's population on benefits and every major building has a built with EU funding plaque on it.

I am looking forward to there shock when the rabid right wing Brexiters advise them there will no longer be any welfare state and depending on which loon is in charge they end up working the fields or in the poorhouse.

At this point I no longer give a gak I have moved my money into euros and I am in the process of clearing as much of my debt as I can, my job is secure although I am likely to lose my disability benefits given the Tory scum bags hate us useless eaters.

I am starting to stockpile water,food and other essentials such as medication. I am however now angry more than anything that my son's future has been fethed by the gulliable dumb feths who voted to turn us into a 3rd world right wing shithole.

Just so Moggy and his mates can avoid the new tax laws on the 1st April next year.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Knockagh wrote:
What a lot of whataboutery. Utter nonsense.

No one wants a hard border. The EU are just using the RoI as a beating stick for the UK as are remainers. But there is a very real possibility of a border being forced on us across the sea. And this is the real threat a border against the wishes of the people if Northern Ireland.

Ahhh I see another follower of David "Mince" Davis version of reality sadly he is a fething moron who knows nothing about anything he speaks about. If we crash out Moggy style onto WTO terms then by there rules there has to be a hard border, other "benefits" of two include being required to privatise the NHS and other Tory wet dreams

If it’s only legitimate international trading that’s of concern then we don’t need any border structures but just an extra audit for companies that carry out exports.
But the small scale smuggling that continues even today still costs the treasury a small fortune. It’s estimated that IRA gangs operating along the border fuel smuggling cost the exchequer £350 million annually in lost revenue. Never mind the tonnes of toxic sludge that they dump along the border roads, the byproduct of their fuel washing. Apart from the very occasional police operation against these thugs they are largely left to operate freely. I know this is a small scale example but it involves small tight knit border communities who make a lot of money from this. It’s endemic within republicanism, only last year Michell ONeill the leader of Sinn Fein here had a family member convicted of border smuggling.

Just an interesting related story. In the 1920s up to the start of the troubles the old customs posts opened at 8am and closed at 5pm. Anytime before or after you just drove, walked or rode on through!

How Brexit has been allowed to occur is just appalling. It was entirely the life's work of a party who never had more that a single MP (stolen from the Tories), and now it's being forced through by a minority caucus in parliament.

But the fertile ground that exists for it is just a long tragic chain of events leading back to the 08 crash, which ultimately ruined Labour (that and the 'bigot' line). Since then we saw the Tories kill the Liberals in a Coalition, which went hand in hand with the rise in profile of the SNP thanks to the "IndyRef", so 2015's GE resulted in a massive evacuation of the English political centre, allowing both the Tories and Labour to lurch to harder positions.

I would see it as a natural evolution of shifting the overton window to the Right in the UK since Thatcher, followed by Blair. Cameron mostly bullied the disabled, but that stream of right wing nastiness was still there.

I am not sure I see a way out of this now - the Tories will be panicking at seeing polling that suggests UKIP is reviving at their expense as they lose moderates to Labour. Hard Brexit becomes a political necessity to keep the Tories in power, even though they know it is bad for the country in many cases. Just look at how weak the tory rebels have been with the threat of a GE.

Perhaps the crash that comes with a Hard Brexit will snap the UK out of it. But it could just as easily turn in on itself even more. It really is shocking.

Breaking news : Suspended Sex Pest right wing Labour MP resigns party to avoid investigation and being thrown out.

John Woodcock ex leader of the Friends of Israel and partner of Tory spectator editor. Leaves without consulting or advising local members and provides Mayhem with cover by ranting about Corbyn in resignation letter being a national security risk and a jew hating Nazi.

Entire party membership cheers as party swings massively from right to centre/left with this douche gone. Also saves us the cost of having to deal with the sex pest.

I remember when in the early days of the Corbyn thing, the Guardian was giving the likes of him and the other discredited sex pest tonnes of hagiographic coverage because they were rabidly anti Corbyn. Like that useless gobshite Jess Philips, and the other sex pest Simon Danczuk, remember him?

Mind you, Corbyn has been useless with regard to Brexit and seems pretty incoherent when it comes to stuff like NATO. He turned out to be a disappointment too.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
In terms of real international trade the important thing for customs is the freight transferring ports.

Only whilst there's regulatory equivalence - and it's just a revenue issue.

Once you get stuff that's legal on one side and not the other, there's a lot of money to be made smuggling.

Herzlos wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
In terms of real international trade the important thing for customs is the freight transferring ports.

Only whilst there's regulatory equivalence - and it's just a revenue issue.

Once you get stuff that's legal on one side and not the other, there's a lot of money to be made smuggling.

You'd be amazed the weird things you can smuggle and make money on too. I knew this one guy who'd jump the US/SNI border with loads of food, like bread, which wasn't taxed on one side, and sell it cheap on the other.

There has always been smuggling and there will always be smuggling, because there have always been things which are legal here and not there.

The point is to regulate legal trade.

No-one's going to "smuggle" a container of chlorinated chickens on a small trawler. They will bring it through a ferry port, and that is where it can be customs checked.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
There has always been smuggling and there will always be smuggling, because there have always been things which are legal here and not there.

The point is to regulate legal trade.

No-one's going to "smuggle" a container of chlorinated chickens on a small trawler. They will bring it through a ferry port, and that is where it can be customs checked.

I wouldn't think someone would smuggle 800 loaves of bread in a truck, but they did.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/18/dairy-products-may-become-luxuries-after-uk-leaves-eu?CMP=share_btn_tw

Dairy products 'may become luxuries' after UK leaves EU
Reliance on EU butter, cheese and yoghurt means sharp price rises, says milk producer Arla

.. back to good old fashioned dripping it is then.

How would you police a hard border and it's 275 border crossings? You could bomb them again I suppose:great economically and for ensuring the safety of unionist border votes I'm sure.
Will we see a return to the amusing situation of having a shop halfway through the border, selling cigarettes in whichever side they can get a better deal on? When the border was as hard as steel, Slab and co were able to smuggle, why would now be Harder when they aren't wanted for terrorism? More to that point, how would any seamless infrastructure survive a slap of a South Armagh hurley? Leaving us with a policed border and the chatter of dissident armalites. That is if they're even the dissidents at that and not the majority of nationalists. There's a legal argument that it disenfranchises people of their Irish citizenships: will that go down well?

When the Ulster Covenant was signed, it was labelled the Ulster covenant. Not the "2/3rds of Ulster covenant." Republicans do not recognise the majority as being unionist. It is only a majority within the occupied six counties-a very slim majority at that. It is an artificial majority. The six counties were chosen as they were the furthest extent of territory unionism thought it could hold onto long term, despite two of them already wanting to be in the "south." If for example the people of a predominantly French area in London declared they wanted to secede to France in 100 years time it would be farcical, especially if they went around declaring how they wouldn't give a job to an englishman, shot a load of them, and refered to the place as London, even if it was a few streets of it!

As for being Northern Ireland? It's not even that. Donegal is the most northerly part of Ireland. If unionism had held onto the entirety of Ulaid, perhaps they may be considered as being Northern Ireland. Come to think of it, the unionists, Republicans and Brits call us the south half the time and we don't whinge about it. Unionism has rather tackily decided to slap the name Ulster onto everything it could, the RUC, UDR, UDA etc, despite having abandoned a third of it!

With the way May is handling things, I am seriously coming around to the idea of just stopping the current process altogether and starting over. Because it needs done right or not at all. I’m not an extremist, and I don’t believe in cutting off your nose to spite your face. The solution, EFTA, is sitting there staring them in the face and they are just too stupid to see it. I don’t regret my choice of vote but I do regret having it carried out by these fething numpties.

But...you knew it would be these numpties.