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Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Britain can have a 21st century trading model and not the dark ages model of the EU.

How would that 21st century trading model look like? And don't forget to consider that the UK wouldn't be part of one of the biggest economic trading blocks in the world, meaning that the value of those trade deals have shifted. The UK might be more free in making deals but from a much less powerful position (remember: that's no empire anymore). Without drifting into fantastic extrapolations. Why would the other big economic blocks give away favours to the UK?

whembly wrote:Doesn't Ireland have some special tax law goodies that's different than the rest of the EU? Granted they're a country of ~5 million compared to Uk 60 million... but, my point was that ya'll have opportunity to be different (however slightly) that may entice other EU business to operate there.

Ireland is also part of the EU so they they have easy access to intra-EU trade (more like US state to US state and less like USA - Canada, even if the comparison is simplistic/crude). That's due to the four freedoms of the EU and the Brexit crew seems to be divided in their opinion of what type of Brexit they want (or can get) so who knows how cumbersome UK - EU economic relations will be. Simply put: post Brexit UK won't have the same economic connection to the EU as Ireland has and them fudging around with taxes would be like the US doing the same. Relevant in some way (because we are all economically connected, after all) but not that influential on the rest of the EU. Sure they could try starting trade wars but the UK doesn't have the economic influence of the USA. And the EU is slowly clamping down on intra EU abuse of tax discrepancies. That should make possible opportunities for the UK similarly complicated.

Ireland also got much more financial support from the EU in the early days (they still get funding but it's less these days). Post Brexit UK also wouldn't have access to similar features (because they wouldn't be part of the EU anymore) so they would need to balance their budget and their taxes without the help of other EU members.

https://ec.europa.eu/ireland/about-us/impact-of-EU-membership-on-Ireland_en

It's a bit how some US states can have rather low taxes because on a federal level they get financial support from other states that pay more in taxes. If you cut yourself off the rest of the states then yes you would have more freedom to dictate your own taxes, laws, and regulations but you would also not be able to depend on the support of the other states that you are trying to "undermine".

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Oi.

Brexiteers.

Yes. You.

Does it not even bother you slightly that you’ve failed to sway anyone that voted Remain this might actually work out?

Like? Not at All?

Not even a shred or remorse or responsibility?

Not really no. Such minds were made up from the beginning and were never going to change anyway.

But if it’s such an opportunity as described, shouldn’t there be an inkling of said benefits, rather than the impending and relentless gakstorm that’s just off our bow?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Seriously. You collectively labelled remain as ‘Projecf Fear’.

And now, it’s far more ‘project stark, staring reality’.

(Edited to remove inadvertent bypass of swear filters)

The gak storm is coming from the incompetents who are sadly in control of the process at present. Maybe you missed it but we’ve been talking about the way it should have been done from the get go. EFTA, also known as the Norway model. A controlled decoupling rather than a blind leap. Gets us out of the Fisheries, CAP and Customs Union whilst staying in the single market. We still get a say in the rules at the beginning if we lobby hard. There’s also an immigration break that dosen’t require the others permission to use. And being out of the customs union would allow us to strike up trade deals separately from the lumbering EU. If it leads to faster trade deals, companies from all over might come here because they’d get the best of both worlds; eu benefits but without the trade barriers blocking off wider markets. And it can be seen as a stepping stone to further benefits if we work with the others. All in all it’s a good compromise. But it’s been completely ignored by the idiots in charge because of their bull gak red lines.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
The gak storm is coming from the incompetents who are sadly in control of the process at present. Maybe you missed it but we’ve been talking about the way it should have been done from the get go. EFTA, also known as the Norway model. A controlled decoupling rather than a blind leap. Gets us out of the Fisheries, CAP and Customs Union whilst staying in the single market.

And don't forget flying through the air while simultaneously burrowing through the ground, on fire while freezing to death.

Your demand to both have cake and eat it too are proving difficult for your elected officials to pull out of their asses.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
The shitstorm is coming from the incompetents who are sadly in control of the process at present. Maybe you missed it but we’ve been talking about the way it should have been done from the get go. EFTA, also known as the Norway model. A controlled decoupling rather than a blind leap. Gets us out of the Fisheries, CAP and Customs Union whilst staying in the single market.

And don't forget flying through the air while simultaneously burrowing through the ground, on fire while freezing to death.

What the feth are you talking about?

EDIT: I see your edit. Ok, tell me why EFTA couldn’t work?

 Future War Cultist wrote:


EDIT: I see your edit. Ok, tell me why EFTA couldn’t work?

Mainly because your incompetent people in charge don't want that.

 Sarouan wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:


EDIT: I see your edit. Ok, tell me why EFTA couldn’t work?

Mainly because your incompetent people in charge don't want that.

Well you got me there. I did say too that we need to stop the process, clear out the dreck from the cabinet and start over. Because they’re making a complete mess of it. It’s like they’re being torn in half between a desire to pander to hard brexit types and another desire to follow their remainer instincts (remember which side May backed). Multiple personality syndrome or something.

The key problem with EFTA is that it doesn't solve the Irish Border.

Other than that it's a pretty good model as long as you're not concerned about immigration.

EFTA countries have to be "rule takers" rather the "rule makers", and have to allow freedom of movement, but they have the benefit of being able to make their own external trade deals.

As long as they don't conflict with EU trade I assume? Or would differing standards just require customs points?

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Oi.

Brexiteers.

Yes. You.

Does it not even bother you slightly that you’ve failed to sway anyone that voted Remain this might actually work out?

Like? Not at All?

Not even a shred or remorse or responsibility?

Not really no. Such minds were made up from the beginning and were never going to change anyway.

Same could be said leavers. Though now that flat out lies of brexiteers have been exposed plenty leavers would change vote. That's why new refereum is such a poison to leavers. They know they can't win again now that their pathetic lies have been exposed. The mere idea of democracy is poison to leavers


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
The shitstorm is coming from the incompetents who are sadly in control of the process at present. Maybe you missed it but we’ve been talking about the way it should have been done from the get go. EFTA, also known as the Norway model. A controlled decoupling rather than a blind leap. Gets us out of the Fisheries, CAP and Customs Union whilst staying in the single market.

And don't forget flying through the air while simultaneously burrowing through the ground, on fire while freezing to death.

What the feth are you talking about?

EDIT: I see your edit. Ok, tell me why EFTA couldn’t work?

Doesn't give what leavers want. Zero immigration. Also irish border.


There's no scenario where brexit works. Zero. Succesfull brexit was never an option. Now that's been exposed second referendum would be stay

Not to mention would efta countries even want uk after it left banging doors. :lol: especially as with the wrexit behaviour

Herzlos wrote:
As long as they don't conflict with EU trade I assume? Or would differing standards just require customs points?

Norway has got customs points on the EU border with Sweden. That's what the UK would need on the Irish border, which violates the Good Friday Agreement.

We also would need customs checks at Dover and Calais, Rotterdam and so on. The Norway customs checks are fairly slick, but not instantaneous, and the UK has a much larger volume of cross-border trade, and therefore the problem is magnified.

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
The shitstorm is coming from the incompetents who are sadly in control of the process at present. Maybe you missed it but we’ve been talking about the way it should have been done from the get go. EFTA, also known as the Norway model. A controlled decoupling rather than a blind leap. Gets us out of the Fisheries, CAP and Customs Union whilst staying in the single market.

And don't forget flying through the air while simultaneously burrowing through the ground, on fire while freezing to death.

What the feth are you talking about?

EDIT: I see your edit. Ok, tell me why EFTA couldn’t work?

It works for Norway, Switzerland, etc. But it is still worse than EU membership for very little "sovereignty" gain.

The least worse solution is still worse. Especially if you keep in mind it means a border in Ireland.

EFTA could work if we spend the 20 months of Transition building up the infrastructure and processes for the additional, and accept that there will be a border in Ireland.

The problem is the border in Ireland. If the EU won't accept that, then EFTA is off the table.

This could be solved by moving the border to the four Irish ports which handle freight. The DUP and Mrs May have already ruled this out.

All this compromise talk is incredibly silly. Its like one group is going "lets jump of that bridge and see what happens!". Remain goes "no thanks" followed by leave then saying "ok lets compromise, lets just break our legs!". "Why the feth would we support that?" "You people never want to compromise! We're in this together!"

A good article by Andrew Rawnsley in The Observer sums up the pickle we have got ourselves into.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/22/desperate-brexit-deadlock-triggers-the-search-for-a-miraculous-escape

 Kilkrazy wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
As long as they don't conflict with EU trade I assume? Or would differing standards just require customs points?

Norway has got customs points on the EU border with Sweden. That's what the UK would need on the Irish border, which violates the Good Friday Agreement.

We also would need customs checks at Dover and Calais, Rotterdam and so on. The Norway customs checks are fairly slick, but not instantaneous, and the UK has a much larger volume of cross-border trade, and therefore the problem is magnified.

It would also kill off our car manufacturing industry too. And probably a lot of other manufacturing that need goods in a reasonable time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How the gak have we gone from free movement of goods but not people, to wanting to compromise with free movement of people but not goods?

Wrexit. That's how

 Future War Cultist wrote:
The gak storm is coming from the incompetents who are sadly in control of the process at present.

No, it is coming from it being a stupid idea in the first place. What is happening is exactly what remain said would happen, but was called project fear.

 Future War Cultist wrote:

Maybe you missed it but we’ve been talking about the way it should have been done from the get go. EFTA, also known as the Norway model. A controlled decoupling rather than a blind leap. Gets us out of the Fisheries, CAP and Customs Union whilst staying in the single market. We still get a say in the rules at the beginning if we lobby hard. There’s also an immigration break that dosen’t require the others permission to use. And being out of the customs union would allow us to strike up trade deals separately from the lumbering EU. If it leads to faster trade deals, companies from all over might come here because they’d get the best of both worlds; eu benefits but without the trade barriers blocking off wider markets. And it can be seen as a stepping stone to further benefits if we work with the others. All in all it’s a good compromise. But it’s been completely ignored by the idiots in charge because of their bull gak red lines.

And if we had gone for that right from the start a large amount of papers and hard brexiters would have kicked and screamed about it not being what they voted for.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herzlos wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
As long as they don't conflict with EU trade I assume? Or would differing standards just require customs points?

Norway has got customs points on the EU border with Sweden. That's what the UK would need on the Irish border, which violates the Good Friday Agreement.

We also would need customs checks at Dover and Calais, Rotterdam and so on. The Norway customs checks are fairly slick, but not instantaneous, and the UK has a much larger volume of cross-border trade, and therefore the problem is magnified.

It would also kill off our car manufacturing industry too. And probably a lot of other manufacturing that need goods in a reasonable time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How the gak have we gone from free movement of goods but not people, to wanting to compromise with free movement of people but not goods?

Not reasonable time, just in time. They work on the basis of very short delivery slots, and being early or late can result in fines for the supplier.

Despite what tneva82 was ranting on about, I do respect democracy. It’s a large part of why I voted as I did. To put the final say back into the hands of our parliament and move the process one step down towards the voters. Which is why I would support another referendum with three options like we mentioned before; remain, leave on EFTA or similar or leave on WTO. Using an alternative vote system so there’s a clear majority. And I’ll respect the result of it whatever it might be.

Andrew Rawnsley's article describes a possible two-stage referendum similar to a French presidential election.

The first stage ballot will have three choices: Hard Brexit, May's Deal, Remain.

If one of these does not achieve a supermajority, the least popular option will be removed to give people a straight two-way choice in the second round.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Andrew Rawnsley's article describes a possible two-stage referendum similar to a French presidential election.

The first stage ballot will have three choices: Hard Brexit, May's Deal, Remain.

If one of these does not achieve a supermajority, the least popular option will be removed to give people a straight two-way choice in the second round.

Yeah, that’s the way to do it. I’ll read that article on my lunch break.

Also, guess what? I’m fully prepared to lose such a vote too. I feel like the mood has changed. If there’s something good to be had out of all of this, people are now far wiser to how it all works. The only worry I have is the EU putting some demand on the table as a condition for calling it all off. The euro for example.

So what happens if may's deal wins when a) it will not work in practice b) eu will laugh off. Yeah keep parts that are dependant on parts you write off. Lol

Only options that makes sense is no deal or remain. Any deal is pipe dream

Leave supporters like myself are often accused of not thinking things through, but it seems to be contagious amongst the Remain supporters.

2 years ago, a Guardian columnist with the initials AR, was banging on about non-binding referendums.

And yet, here we are with the same people proposing their own non-binding referendum...

Do you know how easy it will be for Leave to take 2 years of opinion articles and Nick Clegg saying the referendum was non-binding

and then throw it back in Remain's face...

Easy victory for Farage and co...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Andrew Rawnsley's article describes a possible two-stage referendum similar to a French presidential election.

The first stage ballot will have three choices: Hard Brexit, May's Deal, Remain.

If one of these does not achieve a supermajority, the least popular option will be removed to give people a straight two-way choice in the second round.

Yeah, that’s the way to do it. I’ll read that article on my lunch break.

Also, guess what? I’m fully prepared to lose such a vote too. I feel like the mood has changed. If there’s something good to be had out of all of this, people are now far wiser to how it all works. The only worry I have is the EU putting some demand on the table as a condition for calling it all off. The euro for example.

Leave won't lose, though, because it will be easy to de-legitimise the result and hoist Remain by their own petard.

After all, they spent 2 years telling us referendums are non-binding...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
EFTA could work if we spend the 20 months of Transition building up the infrastructure and processes for the additional, and accept that there will be a border in Ireland.

The problem is the border in Ireland. If the EU won't accept that, then EFTA is off the table.

This could be solved by moving the border to the four Irish ports which handle freight. The DUP and Mrs May have already ruled this out.

If May had not called her disastrous election, kept her majority and sent the DUP packing, moving the border to the Irish Sea would have been on the table.

Either format (3 questions, with AV, or two rounds) is not part of the current UK constitution and therefore requires a new law. This law could also make it a binding referendum.

There is another problem in that there would in theory need to be three campaigns.

I don't think a referendum is likely, though, because it will take at six to nine months to prepare for.

But really, the point of the Andrew Rawnsley article is to show what a godawful political mess we have got ourselves into, with no ways out that aren't almost impossible.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Leave won't lose, though, because it will be easy to de-legitimise the result and hoist Remain by their own petard.

After all, they spent 2 years telling us referendums are non-binding...

Some referendums are non-binding (advisory), some are binding (statutory). It's determined by the bill that authorises the referendum. The government could choose to make a second referendum either binding or non-binding.

Well. That's what country gets when it decides to listen fools and idiots that sound good. Surprise nobody has promised 10,000,000 for all for voting him. Votes galore

Leave will lost any second referendum.

The lies are out in the open.

Arch-Brexiteer Rees-Mogg has said the benefits will take 50 year’s to be felt - and hasn’t said what those benefits would be.

It’s clear that whilst the EU hold all the Aces. And the Kings. And the Queens. And the Jacks.....the U.K. has inadvertently brought a Happy Families Deck to a very high stake Poker game. And we’re trying to play Snap with it.

What Remain warned has proven true.

What Leave promised has been proven false.

Your pipe dream is almost over. You’re either going to wreck the U.K., or lose the now seemingly inevitable second Referendum.

So 'Remain' MPs, who didn't even have the guts to defend the EU they supposedly support, are suddenly going to grow a spine and push through a new referendum?

I'll believe it when I see it.

And how are they going to pitch it?

Yeah, we know we spent 2 years telling you that referendums are non-binding, that the result was not legitimate, and we know we called you thick, stupid, and racist for expecting the result to be honoured.

But this time it's different. Ours is a special, shiny referendum, and we really mean it this time. Cross our hearts and hope to die!

It's fantasy politics, and obviously knows nothing about the mood of our fellow countrymen and women.

They would see Remain as two faced hypocrites.

It's likely to entrench viewpoints, not win them over.

Oh don’t talk rot.

Just the same old bluff and bluster.