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 xttz wrote:
It definitely seems as though they're adding a distinction between the different origins of a traditional cover save. Physical obstacles that protect troops (like ruins and trees) can be overcome by sufficiently strong firepower, so it makes sense for them to modify the usual saving throw while also being negated by very strong weapons. However situations that make units much harder to hit (like smoke, holofields, moving very quickly, etc) ideally should have always been reflected in the To Hit roll, and it seems that now they will. This means that particularly well-trained marksmen will be more effective here.

I wouldn't be surprised to see units like Harlequins and Venomthropes benefit from a negative To Hit modifier rather than a better saving throw, while units like snipers and Vindicares get special rules allowing them to ignore a certain number of To Hit modifiers.

I would love seeing snipers that are actually better at shooting than some normal troops and elites (Eldar Rangers vs all other Eldar troops and elites), great if the new edition will make this possible.

MorglumNecksnapper wrote:

 xttz wrote:
It definitely seems as though they're adding a distinction between the different origins of a traditional cover save. Physical obstacles that protect troops (like ruins and trees) can be overcome by sufficiently strong firepower, so it makes sense for them to modify the usual saving throw while also being negated by very strong weapons. However situations that make units much harder to hit (like smoke, holofields, moving very quickly, etc) ideally should have always been reflected in the To Hit roll, and it seems that now they will. This means that particularly well-trained marksmen will be more effective here.

I wouldn't be surprised to see units like Harlequins and Venomthropes benefit from a negative To Hit modifier rather than a better saving throw, while units like snipers and Vindicares get special rules allowing them to ignore a certain number of To Hit modifiers.

I would love seeing snipers that are actually better at shooting than some normal troops and elites (Eldar Rangers vs all other Eldar troops and elites), great if the new edition will make this possible.

Welcome to DakkaDakka
I agree, this is a great chance to separate weapons properly, and give them all a good role that is points appropriate.

Can someone explain why pistols can shoot out of combat, during combat?

Does the wild melee of bloody HTH combat pause for a moment to let those with pistols pop off a few shots nearby. Do the Hormagaunts or Bloodletters wait patiently for the Marines to send off a volley at a different (and likely not as pressing) unit of their kinsmen?

As far as abstractions go, this is a weird 'un.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Can someone explain why pistols can shoot out of combat, during combat?

Does the wild melee of bloody HTH combat pause for a moment to let those with pistols pop off a few shots nearby. Do the Hormagaunts or Bloodletters wait patiently for the Marines to send off a volley at a different (and likely not as pressing) unit of their kinsmen?

As far as abstractions go, this is a weird 'un.

I thought it was just that you can use them in combat, not use them to shoot at a different unit out of combat.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Can someone explain why pistols can shoot out of combat, during combat?

Does the wild melee of bloody HTH combat pause for a moment to let those with pistols pop off a few shots nearby. Do the Hormagaunts or Bloodletters wait patiently for the Marines to send off a volley at a different (and likely not as pressing) unit of their kinsmen?

As far as abstractions go, this is a weird 'un.

Isn't that supposed to be shooting into combat? Like, a Space Marine shoots one enemy in the head with a bolt pistol then tears apart the other with a chainsword? At least that's the way I interpreted the description.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Can someone explain why pistols can shoot out of combat, during combat?

Does the wild melee of bloody HTH combat pause for a moment to let those with pistols pop off a few shots nearby. Do the Hormagaunts or Bloodletters wait patiently for the Marines to send off a volley at a different (and likely not as pressing) unit of their kinsmen?

As far as abstractions go, this is a weird 'un.

The restrictions mean that they can only shoot enemies they are in CC with (closest enemies). So they can't shoot out.

MorglumNecksnapper wrote:

 xttz wrote:
It definitely seems as though they're adding a distinction between the different origins of a traditional cover save. Physical obstacles that protect troops (like ruins and trees) can be overcome by sufficiently strong firepower, so it makes sense for them to modify the usual saving throw while also being negated by very strong weapons. However situations that make units much harder to hit (like smoke, holofields, moving very quickly, etc) ideally should have always been reflected in the To Hit roll, and it seems that now they will. This means that particularly well-trained marksmen will be more effective here.

I wouldn't be surprised to see units like Harlequins and Venomthropes benefit from a negative To Hit modifier rather than a better saving throw, while units like snipers and Vindicares get special rules allowing them to ignore a certain number of To Hit modifiers.

I would love seeing snipers that are actually better at shooting than some normal troops and elites (Eldar Rangers vs all other Eldar troops and elites), great if the new edition will make this possible.

Indeed, it will be nice to have a distinction between being hard to hit because you're very quick, or being hard to hit because you're hiding behind a hedge. The latter was the justification for Destroyer weapons ignoring cover saves, but made no sense for the former.

Units with pistols can shoot the closest unit, even if locked in combat.

Guess which the closest unit is? It's gonna be a unit you're locked in combat with.

Why is it there? To promote selection of pistols in your list. If it will have the effect they want or create odd monster units, who knows yet!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Can someone explain why pistols can shoot out of combat, during combat?

Does the wild melee of bloody HTH combat pause for a moment to let those with pistols pop off a few shots nearby. Do the Hormagaunts or Bloodletters wait patiently for the Marines to send off a volley at a different (and likely not as pressing) unit of their kinsmen?

As far as abstractions go, this is a weird 'un.

It pretty obviously says you can only shoot the unit you're in combat with per the 1" and "closest unit" stuff.

What this does is make Plasma Pistols/Grav Pistols/Inferno Pistols/Hand Flamers/etc actually worthwhile, particularly the first two which you almost never see. It would be great for Plasma Pistols in particular given how common they used to be.

It's a pretty notable buff to Space Marines who almost always come equipped with Bolt Pistols, whereas the basic units of many other armies - i.e. Fire Warriors, Guardians/Dire Avengers, Imperial Guardsmen, Kabalite Warriors, Termagants, Shoota Boyz, etc - don't have pistols. This also really helps Slugga Boyz and Storm Guardians.

Caederes wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Can someone explain why pistols can shoot out of combat, during combat?

Does the wild melee of bloody HTH combat pause for a moment to let those with pistols pop off a few shots nearby. Do the Hormagaunts or Bloodletters wait patiently for the Marines to send off a volley at a different (and likely not as pressing) unit of their kinsmen?

As far as abstractions go, this is a weird 'un.

It pretty obviously says you can only shoot the unit you're in combat with per the 1" and "closest unit" stuff.

What this does is make Plasma Pistols/Grav Pistols/Inferno Pistols/Hand Flamers/etc actually worthwhile, particularly the first two which you almost never see. It would be great for Plasma Pistols in particular given how common they used to be.

It's a pretty notable buff to Space Marines who almost always come equipped with Bolt Pistols, whereas the basic units of many other armies - i.e. Fire Warriors, Guardians/Dire Avengers, Imperial Guardsmen, Kabalite Warriors, Termagants, Shoota Boyz, etc - don't have pistols. This also really helps Slugga Boyz and Storm Guardians.

Yes, it's also interesting how it actually makes Tac. Marines.... more tactical. But at the same time I wonder if True Grit is going to make a comeback, with GK having native high rend I can see the codex moving to a wipe them out in one phase style. It's actually interesting thinking where this will lead.

MorglumNecksnapper wrote:

I would love seeing snipers that are actually better at shooting than some normal troops and elites (Eldar Rangers vs all other Eldar troops and elites), great if the new edition will make this possible.

Yeah, Sniper Rifles was one thing old editions didn't do well. "Now here you have this scoped, accurized rifle you are trained to use. You have 50% chance of hitting that house-sized creature."

In related subject, I wonder if this is going to be Heavy Weapons edition. Monstrous Creatures will have double the wounds. Probably IC's will have also more wounds than in current edition. Terminators have 2 wounds. It doesn't sound like small arms fire is going to be very effective? Sure thing, they have that odd chance of taking a wound from a Tank which they did not have before. But in the past, one was at least little bit cautious going next to Tactical Squad with a Daemon Prince or Carnifex because you might easily lose 1-2 Wounds to Rapid fire and become an easy kill even if you don't die. Now, it's going to be much less scary.

I guess I didn't consider the unit you're in HTH with to be the one you can shoot, given you're in HTH with them.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I guess I didn't consider the unit you're in HTH with to be the one you can shoot, given you're in HTH with them.

Yeah I understand what you are saying, though there is alot of examples in the fluff of dudes using their pistols in close combat. Infact, I was reading Flight of the Eisenstein again today (building up that DG hype), both Grulgor and Kaleb use their pistols while fighting.

It isn't exactly honourable, though it is up to you if you want your force to show honour or not

Maybe pistols no longer give +1A and this is how their use is abstracted? Who knows. We will soon!

The new pistol rule will be interesting, especially if units like the death company can still all take an inferno pistol

All of a sudden the plasma pistol is just 1 strength shy of a power fist upgrade plus it has range! I always wanted to actually use a plasma pistol upgrade on a CSM champion or berzerker. Also I always wanted to use berserkers.

macluvin wrote:
All of a sudden the plasma pistol is just 1 strength shy of a power fist upgrade plus it has range! I always wanted to actually use a plasma pistol upgrade on a CSM champion or berzerker. Also I always wanted to use berserkers.

Remember that is based on old stats!

Backfire wrote:

MorglumNecksnapper wrote:

I would love seeing snipers that are actually better at shooting than some normal troops and elites (Eldar Rangers vs all other Eldar troops and elites), great if the new edition will make this possible.

Yeah, Sniper Rifles was one thing old editions didn't do well. "Now here you have this scoped, accurized rifle you are trained to use. You have 50% chance of hitting that house-sized creature."

In related subject, I wonder if this is going to be Heavy Weapons edition. Monstrous Creatures will have double the wounds. Probably IC's will have also more wounds than in current edition. Terminators have 2 wounds. It doesn't sound like small arms fire is going to be very effective? Sure thing, they have that odd chance of taking a wound from a Tank which they did not have before. But in the past, one was at least little bit cautious going next to Tactical Squad with a Daemon Prince or Carnifex because you might easily lose 1-2 Wounds to Rapid fire and become an easy kill even if you don't die. Now, it's going to be much less scary.

Didn't sniper rifles use to hit on 2+ in 4th ed? I remember them being much more accurate than now.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Maybe pistols no longer give +1A and this is how their use is abstracted? Who knows. We will soon!

+1A was the abstraction. This would just be using the pistol!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Maybe pistols no longer give +1A and this is how their use is abstracted? Who knows. We will soon!

+1A was the abstraction. This would just be using the pistol!

I imagine you will have the choice of having +1 attack OR shooting the pistol. We will see though.

It also make usefull some dark eldar pistols

Backfire wrote:

In related subject, I wonder if this is going to be Heavy Weapons edition. Monstrous Creatures will have double the wounds. Probably IC's will have also more wounds than in current edition. Terminators have 2 wounds. It doesn't sound like small arms fire is going to be very effective? Sure thing, they have that odd chance of taking a wound from a Tank which they did not have before. But in the past, one was at least little bit cautious going next to Tactical Squad with a Daemon Prince or Carnifex because you might easily lose 1-2 Wounds to Rapid fire and become an easy kill even if you don't die. Now, it's going to be much less scary.

The thing with dedicated heavy anti tank weapons is that they are either have quite a premium cost (Lascannons) or serious drawbacks such as range (Meltas) or being a middle of the road, master of none kinda deal that suffers against the heaviest 'vehicles' (missile launchers, if I guess right and they will be D3 wounds and AP/rend -2 with krak). Also one thing they have in common: they are very ineffective against horde armies.

If expensive heavy weapons become the meta for a while, there will be an easy counter-meta in the form of high model count horde armies, keeping the situation balanced. Meanwhile now much tougher vehicles and MCs (which are basically getting unified) and other rules such as saves reduce the effectiveness of high-volume hybrid weapons that are also good at dealing with infantry such autocannons or other S6/S7 weapons against them big time if they don't have a serious AP/rend value or inflict multiple wounds, preventing them from dominating like they are now or becoming to established. Balance looks good so far from what we have seen.

 Vulkan_He'stan wrote:
The new pistol rule will be interesting, especially if units like the death company can still all take an inferno pistol

There is an Inferno Pistol in each Death Company kit, so I can guarantee that they will. Whether or not Blood Angels Assault Squads will be able to take them is not for sure though. Regardless, I am thinking I will make a squad with three Plasma Pistols (I don't like gunslingers so the Sergeant won't have two). Should be fun. But if Assault Squads can still take an Inferno Pistol, I am making a squad with three or four of them. My Captain with a Power Sword and Plasma Pistol probably got a little boost.

I really do doubt that the +1 Attack for having a Pistol will remain in place. If it does, assault units are going to be nuts.

Today we are just getting the Charge phase. That it is called out as its own phase makes me think Overwatch is staying in the game.

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:

The thing with dedicated heavy anti tank weapons is that they are either have quite a premium cost (Lascannons) or serious drawbacks such as range (Meltas) or being a middle of the road, master of none kinda deal that suffers against the heaviest 'vehicles' (missile launchers, if I guess right and they will be D3 wounds and AP/rend -2 with krak). Also one thing they have in common: they are very ineffective against horde armies.

If expensive heavy weapons become the meta for a while, there will be an easy counter-meta in the form of high model count horde armies, keeping the situation balanced. Meanwhile now much tougher vehicles and MCs (which are basically getting unified) and other rules such as saves reduce the effectiveness of high-volume hybrid weapons that are also good at dealing with infantry such autocannons or other S6/S7 weapons against them big time if they don't have a serious AP/rend value or inflict multiple wounds, preventing them from dominating like they are now or becoming to established. Balance looks good so far from what we have seen.

I was not talking about unit balance or factional balance which we have very little idea of. I was wondering whether infantry basic weapons are going to be useful in this edition or are the squads going to be defined by their special/heavy weapons? It seems like none of the Small Arms will have any Rend, so their effectiveness even against other Infantry are reduced since even 6+ saves will always work.
But obviously there are still many unknowns.

Oh if I can field it, my Assault Squad Sergeant is getting an Inferno Pistol, and several of my Death Company minis are getting hand flamers. That's happening.

So happy I went with a Hand Flamer on my Captain now. I expect he will be able get D3 (or maybe D6, but I doubt it) automatic hits while in melee. Yes please.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:

Backfire wrote:

In related subject, I wonder if this is going to be Heavy Weapons edition. Monstrous Creatures will have double the wounds. Probably IC's will have also more wounds than in current edition. Terminators have 2 wounds. It doesn't sound like small arms fire is going to be very effective? Sure thing, they have that odd chance of taking a wound from a Tank which they did not have before. But in the past, one was at least little bit cautious going next to Tactical Squad with a Daemon Prince or Carnifex because you might easily lose 1-2 Wounds to Rapid fire and become an easy kill even if you don't die. Now, it's going to be much less scary.

The thing with dedicated heavy anti tank weapons is that they are either have quite a premium cost (Lascannons) or serious drawbacks such as range (Meltas) or being a middle of the road, master of none kinda deal that suffers against the heaviest 'vehicles' (missile launchers, if I guess right and they will be D3 wounds and AP/rend -2 with krak). Also one thing they have in common: they are very ineffective against horde armies.

If expensive heavy weapons become the meta for a while, there will be an easy counter-meta in the form of high model count horde armies, keeping the situation balanced. Meanwhile now much tougher vehicles and MCs (which are basically getting unified) and other rules such as saves reduce the effectiveness of high-volume hybrid weapons that are also good at dealing with infantry such autocannons or other S6/S7 weapons against them big time if they don't have a serious AP/rend value or inflict multiple wounds, preventing them from dominating like they are now or becoming to established. Balance looks good so far from what we have seen.

I'm beginning to think Genestealer Cults are going to be really powerful, their horde MSU style means they can easily fill out the larger FOC's and get lots of Command Points, if the restrictions on charging are removed like it looks like they are then there's no need for the D6 table for Cult Ambush, it'll always be powerful, and every Acolyte can take a Hand Flamer. Heavy weapons wont mean mcu hto them since they don't take much in the way of vehicles and MC's as it is.


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Backfire wrote:

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:

The thing with dedicated heavy anti tank weapons is that they are either have quite a premium cost (Lascannons) or serious drawbacks such as range (Meltas) or being a middle of the road, master of none kinda deal that suffers against the heaviest 'vehicles' (missile launchers, if I guess right and they will be D3 wounds and AP/rend -2 with krak). Also one thing they have in common: they are very ineffective against horde armies.

If expensive heavy weapons become the meta for a while, there will be an easy counter-meta in the form of high model count horde armies, keeping the situation balanced. Meanwhile now much tougher vehicles and MCs (which are basically getting unified) and other rules such as saves reduce the effectiveness of high-volume hybrid weapons that are also good at dealing with infantry such autocannons or other S6/S7 weapons against them big time if they don't have a serious AP/rend value or inflict multiple wounds, preventing them from dominating like they are now or becoming to established. Balance looks good so far from what we have seen.

I was not talking about unit balance or factional balance which we have very little idea of. I was wondering whether infantry basic weapons are going to be useful in this edition or are the squads going to be defined by their special/heavy weapons? It seems like none of the Small Arms will have any Rend, so their effectiveness even against other Infantry are reduced since even 6+ saves will always work.
But obviously there are still many unknowns.

I wouldn't be so worried, Marine players might like whining abotu the bolter being useless but Guard, Eldar and Tau basic infantry just die in droves to them (hell, as a Dark Eldar player I've lost more vehicles to standard bolters than almost anything else). If Pulse rifles are still S5, Shurican with AP-3 on 6's, Splinter wounds anything not a vehicle on a 4+ then they'll still have their use.

I've put a lot of thought into this. It's still way to early to get any specifics, but I think there are a few definite possibilities.

Pistol to the Face
It means that units with pistols can be a lot more effective in 'getting in peoples' faces.

Orks with sluggas, for example. Seraphim with Twin Hand Flamers will be extremely deadly. Plasma pistols might actually become a thing again, especially if they are STR 7, AV -2

Units that cannot stand in assault I expect will usually want to fall back. 10 guard in a line will break and run. If there is no way to 'catch them' and prevent them from running, this perk might not be the bee's knees.

I'm not sure how often only being able to shoot pistols if a unit is 1" away will come up. Will that negate overwatch? If the move phase is before the shooting phase, you can just take a step back and unload.


Heavy Metal
Heavy weapons are undergoing a massive change. Being -1 to hit for moving increases their value with tactical squads, and decreases their value on armor.

This means scat bikes will be hitting on a 4+ if they move, which significantly lowers the amount of damage a scat bike army can do.

It also means ork rokkits on dreads are not a bad thing at all. At least they are not being knocked down to hitting on a 6+. Imperial dreads and hellbrutes with dual gun configurations are now less desirable than one with a power fist and weapon.

It also means we will see more heavy weapons deployed in tactical squads. That multi-melta suddenly becomes a much better weapon. A combat-squadded devastator squad with 4 of them rolling around in 2 rhinos shooting out the hatch becomes a bit more scary.
If Vulcan can still twin-link that Multi-Meltas, they would be hitting 75% of the time, making them extremely nasty.

This change is also a kick in the pants to soulgrinders. Their harvester cannon will not be nearly as effective hitting on a 5+. If they still get a flame template option, that will probably be the 'go-to'.

If the grinders have a 5+ save, they will be autocannon bait. If AC's don't have a save modifier, they will inflict twice the amount of damage on grinders than dreads.

Again, we will have to wait and see....


Life After the Cover Save
There seem to be two types of cover, the kind that obscures and the kind you hide behind. It seems they can be combined for extremely durable units.

Will it be just 'smoke' that causes a unit to impose negatives on the 'to-hit' of enemy shots? Will a darkshroud now give a -2 to enemy shots? Will daemons of nurgle be -1 or -2 to hit? We will have to see what the rules for shrouding and stealth are.

If 'shrouded', combined with the -1 for moving heavy weapons, it means that that daemon prince of nurgle might be extremely hard to pluck out of the air with a lascannon.

Cover adding to armor saves also has dramatic effects on units. Due to the way the d6 dice work, the effect is more dramatic as you go to the edge boundary. IE, power armored troops in cover double their resistance of incoming attacks by going from a 3+ save to a 2+ save. IG in cover are a ~50% more durable.

Combining them double dips unit durability. A unit with camo-cloaks (-1 to hit) in cover (4+ save to a 3+ save) double their durability to small arms fire -- just like power armored troops.
(10 bolter shots would kill .833~ scouts instead of killing 1.66~)


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 insaniak wrote:
I doubt it... I would guess that anything that can currently move and fire heavy weapons will have a rule ignoring the -1 penalty.

Why would the post have said "This applies to all models with heavy weapons, vehicles included." Vehicles being specifically included suggests otherwise. While I expect the 'heavy' rule on vehicles will ignore than penalty (LRBT), but most vehicles they will have to stand still.


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 thenewgozoku wrote:
Monstrous creatures had a serious limit on how many weapons they could fire. Also I can't remember now how many of those are heavy.

Riptides come to mind.... If they want to be fully effective, they will need to sit in one spot and not move around.

They might still be able to jump after shooting though and not effect their following turn.

I hate the idea of abandoning templates, its always been a staple of Warhammer 40K.

If I get back into 40K (I've only ever played 5th Ed), I'll want to houserule templates back into the game.

I really, REALLY hope Vulkan He'stan still TL's all your meltas. For once an army I have already built will actually be super effective. (I usually go for the underdogs lol)

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I hate the idea of abandoning templates, its always been a staple of Warhammer 40K.

If I get back into 40K (I've only ever played 5th Ed), I'll want to houserule templates back into the game.

This has been a weird one for me too.

The removal of templates makes for faster play. If I want to run blocks of 30 orks, I can now use a movement tray and push a group of 30 of them across the board. If I want to bring 100 daemonettes I can do the same in 20 woman blocks. The idea here is that now horde armies can be a LOT faster to play. Bringing 150 orks to the table is not longer 'crazy talk' for competitive, timed play. You are only moving 5 trays per turn.

In games where my opponent had a lot of blast templates, much of my turn would be spent using my 2" spacer to edge out all of my models to ensure I had maximum coherency between my units. It was a burdensome time-sink that did not add to the pleasure of either person's game.

I don't have to use movement trays. If I want to maximize coverage, I can still spread out my models across the board. The idea is that it gives the OPTION to play horde armies quickly.


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 nintura wrote:
I really, REALLY hope Vulkan He'stan still TL's all your meltas. For once an army I have already built will actually be super effective. (I usually go for the underdogs lol)

TL melta's when you are hitting on a 3+ is good, but not super. You go from hitting 2/3 of the time to 8/9 of the time.
Going from hitting 1/2 of the time to 75% of the time is a much better jump. Vulcan melta-flamer heavy armies might actually become a thing again.

Think of the way tanks are going to work. They are going to be like a mini-MC. Instead of AV11 with 3HPs, the rhino will have a T6 or T7 with 6 or 7 wounds and a 3+ save. (I'm making a guess here). This is a huge boost for durability of the units inside, and using the rhino as a shooting platform seems completely viable. While the idea of fire points might be removed, my guess if that 2 units will still be able to shoot out the hatch.