H.B.M.C. wrote:
Can someone explain why pistols can shoot out of combat, during combat?

Does the wild melee of bloody HTH combat pause for a moment to let those with pistols pop off a few shots nearby. Do the Hormagaunts or Bloodletters wait patiently for the Marines to send off a volley at a different (and likely not as pressing) unit of their kinsmen?

As far as abstractions go, this is a weird 'un.

 paqman wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Can someone explain why pistols can shoot out of combat, during combat?

Does the wild melee of bloody HTH combat pause for a moment to let those with pistols pop off a few shots nearby. Do the Hormagaunts or Bloodletters wait patiently for the Marines to send off a volley at a different (and likely not as pressing) unit of their kinsmen?

As far as abstractions go, this is a weird 'un.

They are quite possibly moving the usage of the pistol from "Extra close combat weapon" to shooting phase. I guess they no longer want a simple pistol to provide, for example, an extra power weapon or power fist CC attack.
Its probably just a simple shift of pistols in the abstraction of CC and Shooting phase.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Can someone explain why pistols can shoot out of combat, during combat?

Does the wild melee of bloody HTH combat pause for a moment to let those with pistols pop off a few shots nearby. Do the Hormagaunts or Bloodletters wait patiently for the Marines to send off a volley at a different (and likely not as pressing) unit of their kinsmen?

As far as abstractions go, this is a weird 'un.

 KommissarKiln wrote:
In order to balance out the save modifiers (as well as high wound count), I would expect- I also really, really hope- that rerollable saves will no longer exist, or at least become much rarer and/or the 2nd save is weaker than the 1st. As far as I'm concerned, if those Tzeentch/Ravenwing armies and super special Mary-Sue HQ characters take one to the butt, it will be much better for the other armies and the game in general, as a ~2-3% chance of failing saves on a D6 system is pretty unfair against armies that are lucky to reduce that chance of failure to 17%.

 KommissarKiln wrote:
In order to balance out the save modifiers (as well as high wound count), I would expect- I also really, really hope- that rerollable saves will no longer exist, or at least become much rarer and/or the 2nd save is weaker than the 1st. As far as I'm concerned, if those Tzeentch/Ravenwing armies and super special Mary-Sue HQ characters take one to the butt, it will be much better for the other armies and the game in general, as a ~2-3% chance of failing saves on a D6 system is pretty unfair against armies that are lucky to reduce that chance of failure to 17%.

On a separate note, I wonder if bikers will lose their +1T buff and instead get an extra wound or two, much like many other units are receiving. Perhaps, dare I say it, the poor IG Rough Riders will become relevant with 2 or 3 wounds!

#MakeRoughRidersGreatForOnce

 labmouse42 wrote:
I've put a lot of thought into this. It's still way to early to get any specifics, but I think there are a few definite possibilities.

Pistol to the Face
It means that units with pistols can be a lot more effective in 'getting in peoples' faces.

Orks with sluggas, for example. Seraphim with Twin Hand Flamers will be extremely deadly. Plasma pistols might actually become a thing again, especially if they are STR 7, AV -2

Units that cannot stand in assault I expect will usually want to fall back. 10 guard in a line will break and run. If there is no way to 'catch them' and prevent them from running, this perk might not be the bee's knees.

I'm not sure how often only being able to shoot pistols if a unit is 1" away will come up. Will that negate overwatch? If the move phase is before the shooting phase, you can just take a step back and unload.

 Mymearan wrote:
What do you mean? You'll be able to shoot pistols in close combat, as simple as that. You can't take a step back and unload because if you retreat you can't shoot or charge.

 labmouse42 wrote:

- Models with these hand-held firearms can shoot at the closest enemy target in the Shooting phase, even if they themselves are locked in combat!

- When picking a target, you won’t be able to shoot enemies that are in combat with other units, much like the current edition.

Unless there is an exception that lets you shoot the unit you are locked in CC with, pistols will be used to shoot the next closest unit (not the one you are currently engaged in)

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:
What do you mean? You'll be able to shoot pistols in close combat, as simple as that. You can't take a step back and unload because if you retreat you can't shoot or charge.

- Models with these hand-held firearms can shoot at the closest enemy target in the Shooting phase, even if they themselves are locked in combat!

- When picking a target, you won’t be able to shoot enemies that are in combat with other units, much like the current edition.

Unless there is an exception that lets you shoot the unit you are locked in CC with, pistols will be used to shoot the next closest unit (not the one you are currently engaged in)

The idea here is that a unit with twin-linked hand flamers would be able to do d6 hits per model to the NEXT closest unit. 5 Seraphim would be doing 5d6 flamer hits, and if TL still lets you re-roll to wounds, that would be a pretty 18.5 hits re-rolling wounds on another target. Owch!

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:
What do you mean? You'll be able to shoot pistols in close combat, as simple as that. You can't take a step back and unload because if you retreat you can't shoot or charge.

- Models with these hand-held firearms can shoot at the closest enemy target in the Shooting phase, even if they themselves are locked in combat!

- When picking a target, you won’t be able to shoot enemies that are in combat with other units, much like the current edition.

Unless there is an exception that lets you shoot the unit you are locked in CC with, pistols will be used to shoot the next closest unit (not the one you are currently engaged in)

The idea here is that a unit with twin-linked hand flamers would be able to do d6 hits per model to the NEXT closest unit. 5 Seraphim would be doing 5d6 flamer hits, and if TL still lets you re-roll to wounds, that would be a pretty 18.5 hits re-rolling wounds on another target. Owch!

 nintura wrote:
35 points (guessing) for an extra 6-7 wounds on that TL Multi-Melta Squad while giving them much needed movement? #Worth

 ClockworkZion wrote:
+ removal of initiative simplifies combat order and ensures formally slow weapons have more potential to be used in combat (welcome back Power Fist Sergeants!)

 davou wrote:
wish they would have mentioned if runninng precludes charging

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So after sifting through a lot of opinions, Warhammer Community posts, screen-capped Twitter posts by Foley and enough salty tears to make me thinks I was floating in the Dead Sea while reading I felt it a good time to sit down, sift through it all and share my thoughts. Plus the Astropath Choir at home was down so I didn't have anything better to do at the time.

Stat Line Changes
So, at least initially it seemed like the most contention fell into this category. People didn't see a point in giving everyone the same statline to work with, and the idea that a lasgun had the (very faint potential) of hurting a Land Raider was a more heretical notion than a Black Templar Librarian.

As I see it the simplification to a single statline does a few things:

+ balance between MC and vehicles is easier to achieve

+ no more arguments on if something "should" be a vehicle or MC

+ improved durability to most weapons for vehicles (someone did some math and said comparing the old Dread statline to the new one the new one took 111 Scatterlaser shots to the 40 it'd take to kill one on average now assuming the old one was standing in cover)

+ movement stats rid the need for special rules just to make armies like Eldar and Tyranids "feel" faster, streamlining te game

+ removal of initiative simplifies combat order and ensures formally slow weapons have more potential to be used in combat (welcome back Power Fist Sergeants!)

+ removal of the to-hit and WS charts streamline combat in favor of telling you what you need to roll to hit while shooting/punching while also allowing for modifiers (say, as a possible example, a Nurgle unit having a thick cloud of flies in melee that makes it harder for you to hit because you can't see your target in melee) this makes it easier for new players to get into game and removes clutter most veteran players didn't need anyways because we'd memorized the charts.

+ two-hit rolls for melee replacing WS honestly makes me feel like we're representing the abilities of the model more than we were before. It's still an abstraction, but not getting hit in a large melee is harder than hitting something and this feels like it reflects that.

All in all the changes feel largely positive, and it really feels like The move is to make things easier to learn while leaving a lot of room for nuances in how different units interact in combat through modifiers instead of needing to have charts handy all the time.

The change to assault makes weapon choices feel a lot like "never take this" will be a lot less common with options like the trusty Powerfist being more likely to swing as long as you time your unit activations/Command Point usage well during the Assault Phase.

Shooting
As a Sisters player for the most part it is safe to say I am someone who is pretty keen on the Shooting phase. And what little we've learned so far has me interested as it feels like the move is towards a faster playing, more mobile shooting game than before:

+/- Templates are gone. RIP little plastic buddies. By buddies I of course mean my collection of flamer templates because not even my Avenger Strike Fighters got equipped with blast weapons. Seriously though, the removal means one less thing to keep track of (or lose) and to purchase. Sure they're iconic, but so was the red whippy stick and that died several editions ago. I am on the fence to see how Blast weapons work but in the mean time what I saw from Flamers works just fine for me. I suspect Hand Flamers will turn into D3 weapons though. Heavy Flamers however may see a boost in range and potential damage over the D6 (perhaps 2D3?) which would fit weapon better.

+ Heavy Weapons only suffer a -1 to shoot after you move (even for vehicles). This right here opens up massive amounts of mobility into the game. Sure Orks don't care because they either Snap Fired at BS1 or had an Assault Weapon, but for your average armies this means re-positioning is less of a question and more open to do. Ditching blast templates means that these weapons will likely ditch the "move or fire" option that held a lot of weapons back too. Overall this is a great change.

+ Pistols (and only pistols) can shoot units within 1" during the shooting phases (this means you can shoot someone in the face the turn after they charged you) This may be A change that benefits Sisters of Battle the most, but I feel it can go a long way for a lot of units. For Sisters the benefit is pretty obvious: the army gains a big counter-charge punch because nearly every model in the army has a bolt pistol. Hit on 3+ at S4 is way better than (I assume) punch on 4+ at S3. This means a Battle Sisters unit that is charged can choose to disengage (losing all other actions for the turn) to let another unit take shots at the unit that charged the turn before OR shoot said enemy unit in the face before pummeling them in the face with their tiny ceramite-clad lady-fists. Or the random Power Weapon/Eviscerator. For pretty much most armies this means a lot more damage done over less turns making assaults last for fewer turns, while also allowing for more generalist units (like Tactical Marines or Battle Sisters) get a chance to stand up to melee-focused units like Genestealers who ignore the shooting phase but can deal out a fair number of wounds in melee. Plus Bolt Pistol/Chainsword becomes a power combination in some rights as it can shoot and then chop making armies like Black Templars or (people who have weird fetishes for Assault Marines) very happy.

+ Cover modifies the saving trough directly. Not only does this add a touch of thematic element to the game where super lasers, acid beetles and explosive mini rockets are more likely to be shot at you through the wall rather than over it, but it streamlines the saving system as this means increasing tour save by the cover modifier then subtracting the rend value (if there is one) giving you an easier to learn mechanics that still benefits from good tactics. Plus putting a wall between you and oncoming bullets is generally seen as a sound tactical choice anyways so rewarding tactical thinking (and nice, densely packed boards full of terrain instead of the barren moonscape of so many tables) is always a good thing in my book. Then again my favorite game type int he past was City Fight so I am aware of my biases on this.

+ Rend values can drop armour saves. I love this because it brings a sense of granularity to the game that the old "all your save or nothing" lacked without really making the game complex. Especially since most basic weapons seem like they will have a rend value of 0 (I will laugh if the lasgun actually gives your armour save a +1 though). It's a mechanic I remember in WHFB that I always felt would work in 40k and I am glad to see it make it's way over finally.

All around the shooting phase changes look good, with things like the ability to actually move units more with less punishment for doing so, modifiers to saves coming into play (something that'll carry over into the Assault Phase as well), pistols being more useful than purchasing for just +1 attack or using them just so you can charge after you take a couple small pot shots, and generally a move to quicker gameplay by removing templates and scatter die in favor for variable rolls on how many wounds are dealt (to a unit or individual model) mean that the game will move quicker and with less arguments on how many models are under a given template while also making blast and template weapons more deadly against lone models.

Psychic Phase
I don't have a lot to cover here as there isn't a lot for me, a player who only plays armies that hunt Witches instead of fielding them, but what there is has prompted some reaction in my tiny little witch hating heart:

+ No more Daemon summoning circus nonsense. Not only has this been shut down by not putting Warp Charges into a single pool but each Pysker only uses two dice to test to use a power and rolls to hit a target number. So no more throwing large numbers of dice to force through Daemon summoning or Invisibility (looking at you Farseer on a bike). This means more psykers will see use per turn as well since each can use as many powers as their mastery level.

+ Less of a plus for me, but all Witches know Smite as a power now. Which does either D3 or D6 mortal wounds (which don't allow ANY kind of saving throw, to include invulnerable saves). While this means anyone who likes to field their witchkin will see more use out of their models since they will all have a base offensive power, apparently this isn't even the limit as rumors have stated the ability to roll or choose your powers as you see fit. So good on you. You bunch of heretics.

+++++ Summoned units aren't free. Even Foley took shots at people on Twitter over their "thousands of points of free daemons" and how the Tzeentch players should "love change". Thank the Emperor because this goes a LOOOOOOOOONG way to balancing lists that use summoned units as a tactic. Plus the studio even put the whole idea of summoning a free army on blast which means we shouldn't be seeing it as an option going forward.

Frankly the thing I liked out of this was balancing out the psykers more. Limiting power usage to Mastery level is old hat that worked and it's good to have it back, while the removal of the warp charge pool. Summoned units costing points against your army's total is good as well and sold help eliminate the free upgrades they used to be run with (when playing in Matched Play at least).

Assault Phase
My other favorite phase as seen by my strange desire to run close combat units in my Sisters army, and a preference for Bolt Pistol/Chainsword Black Templars over the Bolter wielding ones. Not a LOT here yet, but we can make a couple of inferences based on some other information we've gotten so far:

+ Charging units attack first. Now this isn't clarified in how it works with Alternate Activation in the assault phase, but I assume that without spending a Command Point to gain the initiative over a given unit the defending player can't choose to attack units that just charged that turn until after they've swung. This gives assaulting units the ability to give a good bloody lip prior to losing models to the alternating activation.

+ You aren't locked into combat. Now while breaking from combat does cost the unit at ran away to lose the ability to do anything else (pending any special rules) it does make it easier for armies to act more like they do in the lore with Guardsmen and Tau breaking from combat to allow their allies to drown the attacker in bright flashes of energy.

+ Generalist units can make up their lack of combat punch by having pistols (and in many armies they already do have pistols) making close combat less one sided for the defending player and offering more options for both players in how they construct their army (shoota boyz versus choppa boyz for example)

+ Alternating Activation engages both players during the assault phase while also giving tactical choice in the order you activate your units to attack. The removal of initiative means your side completes all their attacks at once too, which helps speed how combat rolls along, and ensures weapons that were commonly left on the shelf can see new life again.

+ Rend values add more options to how close combat weapons can be stat'd for the game over how the old AP values, making choices more useful all around (for example the Power Maul and Chainaxe which were seen as largely useless in the old system)

Overall there is a definite push to make the assault phase more engaging instead of waiting to see if you can roll dice or just scoop a unit this turn, weapon options are definitely looking up from the current game with the removal of initiative making it so that heavier weapons aren't made useless just because they're slow but rather based on when you use a unit to ensure that they get to swing. Rend values working on everything make less loved weapons more useful in the game, as they work on everything and not just some lightly armoured units.

General Stuff
I left some changes out of the above because they come from speculation or don't fit into a particular slot above:

+ Destroyer weapons are gone. The weapon type will instead be replaced with weapons that do high amount of damage but don't have to rely on special charts to determine e effects of. I assume they'll all rely on dealing Mortal Wounds over regular wounds to ensure they have the right amount of thematic punch, but that's just speculation at the moment.

+ Army/unit rules being locked by keywords. This alone goes a long way to eliminating a lot of the BS in the game in terms of the nigh-unkillable deathstars. With unit specific keywords (example: Berserker for Khorne Berserkers) this can even eliminate the sharing of rules that shouldn't carry over for the purposes of balance.

+Speaking of balance: this is a living edition. That means we can see more frequent tweaks to individual units to correct problems quicker as well as the yearly compendium update that gives us hard copies for all the rules. The downside is needing to spend more time making sure you have the most current rules but the plus is a more balanced game that is more fun to play.

+ Three game modes: campaign (with unit level point costs to allow you to quickly assemble two different armies for story games that are roughly the same strength without needing to worry about fine details), open play (which lets you basically pour your collection on the table in a points-free slugfest of your own design), and match play (which follows current list building rules, has 14 generic FOCs to start with at launch with more coming with army codex releases, and starts at 1,000 points meaning they set a marker for balanced matches between armies and it starts at the 1k level)

+ 1.5k games are only around 90 minutes long. Great news for tournament organizers and players alike. This means the rules are easier to follow, games follow a more streamlined approach and you can play more games in a day. Like you used to in 5th.

+ Core rules are only 12 pages not counting game type rules, add in 2 pages per game type and the whole ruleset for the core mechanics is under 20 pages total. Less to memorize, less to learn to start playing while not being so stripped back that we need a second rulebook to play the game (looking at you GHB)

+ Datasheets will have all unit specific rules and weapon listed meaning less flipping around the codex to find specific rules that only one or two units in the whole book have.

+ No races are being squatted. For those of us who play Sisters this is nice to know because that is the ever present fan theory that we're all tired of.

+ Command Points add interrupts, die rerolls and army flavor. Generated by the FOC you use a set number of non-regenerating points become accessible for you to use up to one time per phase (with no restriction on whose turn you use them on). Example uses given so far include rerolling a die or attacking a unit that just charged that turn before it attacks, but other options were promised to be available based on which army you're fielding.

+ Allies are still a thing but puritan armies get bonuses for not mixing about. Not too much to say as most of this tied into Command Points so we don't know much yet, but with the keyword restriction for special rules and bonuses for not fielding allies mixed into your army it really helps tone down the premise that you need allies to win with certain armies.

+ Chapter/Legion Tactics will still exist. Play with or against marines? Good news! Those fancy paint jobs will still mean something making it so that when you play against a bunch of power armour all the time it will feel different since there will be different rules for different factions. I expect to see changes on how some of these rules work, but the fact that they will continue to exist will remain a bonus for me as fighting the same army all the time is boring as heck.

Overall I see a lot to like from what we've got so far. There isn't enough to really make a call either way (especially to the lore and if the Imperium (especially the Inquisition and some of the more hard line Marine chapters) freaks out like it should that a Primarch is building a massive legion of Marines that don't perfectly follow the template set for the by the God Emperor).

Having to sit through drip releases through all of May will be painful if we don't get a full copy of the core rules to start looking over and studying. The army specific releases can wait until launch but if we have four weeks of drip fed core rules my interest in this release will likely die down to a simmer instead of the full boil GW expects from us.

Pricing information would be nice to see as well. Not to mention a break down of the five books we're getting at launch (and if there will be free PDFs at launch for specific armies sans lore stuff like they did with AoS). It seems like it'll be broken into the three factions (Imperium, Chaos and Xenos) with perhaps the Imperium split into Astartes and Agents of the Imperium for the sake of size and the core rules, but if the Imperium doesn't get split in twain for the book release I'm not sure what book five will be so a clear cut list would be nice to see. Word on where this new fifth army will fall into the mix would be nice too.

Basically my only grievances at the moment can be summed up as "more information so I can decide how to feel already!" while I currently maintain enough hope to tempt Tzeentch into ruining my day.

Maybe if GW starts teasing specific armies soon I'll be able to maintain my excitement but if the next four weeks are tiny teasers on the core rules I'll likely lose all drive to work on a MkIV Black Templar army.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I hate the idea of abandoning templates, its always been a staple of Warhammer 40K.

If I get back into 40K (I've only ever played 5th Ed), I'll want to houserule templates back into the game.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
One thing I noticed is that it sees you still move even if you'd fail to become locked in combat.
Not sure if that's good or not, but at least it makes some sense (I remember back when I was first starting years ago wondering why my unit didn't move if it turned out I wasn't in charge range).

puree wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:
What do you mean? You'll be able to shoot pistols in close combat, as simple as that. You can't take a step back and unload because if you retreat you can't shoot or charge.

- Models with these hand-held firearms can shoot at the closest enemy target in the Shooting phase, even if they themselves are locked in combat!

- When picking a target, you won’t be able to shoot enemies that are in combat with other units, much like the current edition.

Unless there is an exception that lets you shoot the unit you are locked in CC with, pistols will be used to shoot the next closest unit (not the one you are currently engaged in)

The idea here is that a unit with twin-linked hand flamers would be able to do d6 hits per model to the NEXT closest unit. 5 Seraphim would be doing 5d6 flamer hits, and if TL still lets you re-roll to wounds, that would be a pretty 18.5 hits re-rolling wounds on another target. Owch!

why would you need an exception. The unit you are locked in combat with is not of necessity locked in combat with other units, just you. It might be also locked in combat with others of course, that is situational.