Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Rippy wrote:
Oh great pick up!! You move towards them 2D6, this is massive!! It means you can at least closer.

Yep. It means that even if you are 12" away, and you can handle the overwatch fire, it's worth the move just to get another ~7" forward. It's a nice boost to slower moving assault armies (orks)

 labmouse42 wrote:

 KommissarKiln wrote:
In order to balance out the save modifiers (as well as high wound count), I would expect- I also really, really hope- that rerollable saves will no longer exist, or at least become much rarer and/or the 2nd save is weaker than the 1st. As far as I'm concerned, if those Tzeentch/Ravenwing armies and super special Mary-Sue HQ characters take one to the butt, it will be much better for the other armies and the game in general, as a ~2-3% chance of failing saves on a D6 system is pretty unfair against armies that are lucky to reduce that chance of failure to 17%.

On a separate note, I wonder if bikers will lose their +1T buff and instead get an extra wound or two, much like many other units are receiving. Perhaps, dare I say it, the poor IG Rough Riders will become relevant with 2 or 3 wounds!

#MakeRoughRidersGreatForOnce

Rerollable saves were game-breakers. Since GW got many of the competitive players actively involved in the playtesting, I expect them to be extremely rare or removed altogether. Fortune might be a 9+ power to cast.

Expect something like "Reroll failed saves of 1 or 2" rather than "Reroll failed saves".

Zatsuku wrote:
I can live with 2d6" charges, but I really wish we didn't have to. Only a minor disappointment though.

I can live and even agree with some variability/randomness like 1d6+6 but to have charge values swing 83% from one roll to the next potentially is a change in 7th that I'm not happy they're keeping. If it were over for instance difficult terrain or some other in game reason (heavy grav field) then I'd be fine with it but a unit's charge range should IMO vary so substantially over open ground with nothing impeding them. YMMV. On a similar note, I'm not particularly happy about the flat overwatch hit on 6 value being kept either. An overwatching ork should fire with a different accuracy than a space marine with hundreds of years experience or an eldar exarch with thousands cummulatively. Both IMO are randomness for randomness' sake.

 warboss wrote:

Zatsuku wrote:
I can live with 2d6" charges, but I really wish we didn't have to. Only a minor disappointment though.

I can live and even agree with some variability/randomness like 1d6+6 but to have charge values swing 83% from one roll to the next potentially is a change in 7th that I'm not happy they're keeping. If it were over for instance difficult terrain or some other in game reason (heavy grav field) then I'd be fine with it but a unit's charge range should IMO vary so substantially over open ground with nothing impeding them. YMMV. On a similar note, I'm not particularly happy about the flat overwatch hit on 6 value being kept either. An overwatching ork should fire with a different accuracy than a space marine with hundreds of years experience or an eldar exarch with thousands cummulatively. Both IMO are randomness for randomness' sake.

There is always the chance that special rules may help charge distance.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Expect something like "Reroll failed saves of 1 or 2" rather than "Reroll failed saves".

That's the same as just a reroll if you have a save of a 3+.

Even the 7th ed daemons of Tzeench. They were getting rerolls on a 1, but was often a 35/36 save because people would grimoire/cursed earth down to a 2+ save.

Today's post left more questions than it answered. Can we charge after running (or advancing, whatever it's called now)? Do you move 2d6" regardless of whether the charge is successful? What sense does it make that one unit can magically fire half a dozen times in the charge phase, but only once in the shooting phase? Which blistering idiot kept 2d6" charges in the game when there's a perfectly good movement stat now? Random charges, random run distance and mortal wounds are the things I'm most disappointed in so far; I'm relatively surprised that the playtesters were fine with all this - the variance is utterly insane if you can charge after running. One unit might make a 1" run and a 2" charge, going only 3" total, while an identical unit next to them might sprint 6" then gallop another 12" into combat for a total of 18". One covers a third of the width of board, the other barely shuffles half the movement of a Space Marine. That's just poor design IMO. It's kinda surprising too when cover changed to something more reasonable, withdrawing from combat got added as a failsafe if assault is too strong, etc, yet we're still lumbered with all the random garbage which was half the problem in the first place? If random psychic powers are in the game too, my optimism might be all about spent.

 Rippy wrote:
There is always the chance that special rules may help charge distance.

I'd expect something like Hormagaunts or Wyches to be able to roll 3D6 and choose the two highest for their charge distance.

 labmouse42 wrote:
5 Seraphim would be doing 5d6 flamer hits

That's not how Seraphims work.
You can have up to 2 models using a pair of hand flamers. The rest of the models are pairs of bolt pistols. So here, it's 4d6 hand flamer hits + 6 bolt pistols shot.

 Rippy wrote:
"The basic mechanics of this phase are very similar to how they work now. You can select any unit with 12″ as the target of your charge, and your units will move towards them 2D6″.

Enemy units still have a chance to hit the charging unit with overwatch, provided that they are not already in combat. Just as in the current edition, overwatch is a hit on a flat 6 – all pretty familiar so far.

In the current Warhammer 40,000, you need to reach base contact. In the new edition, though, you only need to come within 1″ of an enemy, which in practice means that compared to the current charge range, you get an extra inch.

You also can’t move within 1″ of an enemy you didn’t declare as the target of your charge, so if you want to engage multiple units, you’ll need to brave the overwatch fire of all of them. Overwatch can also be fired multiple times per phase, but as soon as the unit is engaged, they will no longer be able to fire back."

Pretty much unchanged

How so? Even if you fail your charge, it sounds like they are saying you STILL move your units closer. That's a huge change.

 Rippy wrote:

 warboss wrote:

Zatsuku wrote:
I can live with 2d6" charges, but I really wish we didn't have to. Only a minor disappointment though.

I can live and even agree with some variability/randomness like 1d6+6 but to have charge values swing 83% from one roll to the next potentially is a change in 7th that I'm not happy they're keeping. If it were over for instance difficult terrain or some other in game reason (heavy grav field) then I'd be fine with it but a unit's charge range should IMO vary so substantially over open ground with nothing impeding them. YMMV. On a similar note, I'm not particularly happy about the flat overwatch hit on 6 value being kept either. An overwatching ork should fire with a different accuracy than a space marine with hundreds of years experience or an eldar exarch with thousands cummulatively. Both IMO are randomness for randomness' sake.

There is always the chance that special rules may help charge distance.

True but I believe the default should be a more predictable number instead of completely random in the basic ideal situation instead of the exception. Heck, I'd even be willing to grudgingly accept that overwatching makes you roll instead of charging a flat number because you're trying to avoid incoming fire somewhat... but even that isn't the justification here. Simply running over a well maintained concrete surface with nothing to impede or distract you (for instance in the case of charging a unit with no shooting attacks so no overwatch) will vary 83% (from 12 to 2) potentially. That's just odd to me. Randomness =/= excitement automatically for me nor does it "forge the narrative". It just turns running across an empty field into a comical grimdark version of clumsy future supersoldiers competing in American Ninja Warrior's obstacle course and being thwarted by tiny pebbles or blades of grass or perhaps a gentle breeze.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Expect something like "Reroll failed saves of 1 or 2" rather than "Reroll failed saves".

That's the same as just a reroll if you have a save of a 3+.

Even the 7th ed daemons of Tzeench. They were getting rerolls on a 1, but was often a 35/36 save because people would grimoire/cursed earth down to a 2+ save.

It's effectively the same, sure--but you'd be surprised how rare it is to have both 1 and 2. Most of the time it's just reroll failed saves of 1.

Today's WarCom post covers the Charging phase.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/01/new-warhammer-40000-charge-phasegw-homepage-post-4/

We’ve heard about movement, psychic powers, and shooting. Today we look at the Charge phase.

Charging in Warhammer 40,000 is how you get your units into close combat to use all those awesome looking exotic combat weapons to hack, slash and otherwise obliterate enemy units.

The basic mechanics of this phase are very similar to how they work now. You can select any unit with 12″ as the target of your charge, and your units will move towards them 2D6″.

Enemy units still have a chance to hit the charging unit with overwatch, provided that they are not already in combat. Just as in the current edition, overwatch is a hit on a flat 6 – all pretty familiar so far.

In the current Warhammer 40,000, you need to reach base contact. In the new edition, though, you only need to come within 1″ of an enemy, which in practice means that compared to the current charge range, you get an extra inch.

You also can’t move within 1″ of an enemy you didn’t declare as the target of your charge, so if you want to engage multiple units, you’ll need to brave the overwatch fire of all of them. Overwatch can also be fired multiple times per phase, but as soon as the unit is engaged, they will no longer be able to fire back.

So, the Charge phase keeps most of its current mechanics, with only minor amends.

Tomorrow, we’ll check in on the Fight phase, where we look at the bloody melee in the 41st Millennium.

Eyjio wrote:
Can we charge after running (or advancing, whatever it's called now)?

Unknown. My guess is 'no', and it will be a special feature given to specific races/classes (like on an Ork Waaaagh)

Eyjio wrote:
Do you move 2d6" regardless of whether the charge is successful?

That was the indication.

 Imateria wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I hate the idea of abandoning templates, its always been a staple of Warhammer 40K.

If I get back into 40K (I've only ever played 5th Ed), I'll want to houserule templates back into the game.

I'm glad they're gone, they were a useless wastes of time and cause of agro.

Social experiment question: Are you a tournament player?

I have a pet theory the reason templates are out is because they had tourney guys do the playtesting, in the environment where fun goes to die.

 nintura wrote:

How so? Even if you fail your charge, it sounds like they are saying you STILL move your units closer. That's a huge change.

Yeah I missed that bit

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's effectively the same, sure--but you'd be surprised how rare it is to have both 1 and 2. Most of the time it's just reroll failed saves of 1.

I'd be happy if rerolls are never better than a 4+. Power armor rerolls become 5/6 chance of success. Terminator armor rerolls become 11/12 chance of success.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

changemod wrote:
Social experiment question: Are you a tournament player?

I have a pet theory the reason templates are out is because they had tourney guys do the playtesting, in the environment where fun goes to die.

Why is it where fun goes to die? Because the people there play to win? They use the rules to build the best armies possible?

I'm equally a competitive tournament player and a casual beer-n-pretzels player. They are both equally fun, just in different ways. Just because you don't like the competitive fun, does not mean it's not fun for others.

What it means is that there is less likely to be wacky-out-of-balance units. How is that a bad thing?

It means games will be lowered from 3 hours to play to 90 minutes. How is that a bad thing?

So moving a failed charge, only need to get into 1" (and then likely consolidate into b2b later), and multiple overwatches?

While I like that you can potentially shrink the board for slower armies, and that charges are effectively 3"-13" on 2d6, the ability to overwatch near endlessly (unless you become successfully charged) just makes gunline armies that much more annoying. The only way this change can ultimately be pallatable in my book is if Overwatch is locked to a flat 'hit on a 6' and not something that can be buffed to hit on lower nmbers.

Regardless it looks like charging with cheaper screening units, or just chaffe in general before engaging you beatstick 3.0 unit in combat is still a thing and while more tactics based it basically did nothing to shift up the meta for us so far in regards to Overwatch. We'll need to wait and see I guess if more stuff will balance it out laer.

 labmouse42 wrote:

changemod wrote:
Social experiment question: Are you a tournament player?

I have a pet theory the reason templates are out is because they had tourney guys do the playtesting, in the environment where fun goes to die.

Why is it where fun goes to die? Because the people there play to win? They use the rules to build the best armies possible?

I'm equally a competitive tournament player and a casual beer-n-pretzels player. They are both equally fun, just in different ways. Just because you don't like the competitive fun, does not mean it's not fun for others.

What it means is that there is less likely to be wacky-out-of-balance units. How is that a bad thing?

It means games will be lowered from 3 hours to play to 90 minutes. How is that a bad thing?

Don't read too much into it, in this particular case because it's extremely rare outside a tournament environment to see someone obsessively space their horde unit for fraction of an inch perfect anti-template spacing instead of just shuffling if forwards in roughly 2 inch apart formation.

Putting down a flame template or an apocalyptic blast is an immensely satisfying part of the game.

"It doesn't work quite like that, as you only have to get within 1" of the unit your charging, and you'll see tomorow, why "conga line" gunlines are going to be a really bad idea.
Like · Reply · "

This nearly confirms sweeping into other units after combat? I feel they are buffing overwatch because assault is going to be far more deadly.

Eyjio wrote:
What sense does it make that one unit can magically fire half a dozen times in the charge phase, but only once in the shooting phase? Which blistering idiot kept 2d6" charges in the game when there's a perfectly good movement stat now? ... That's just poor design IMO. It's kinda surprising too when cover changed to something more reasonable, withdrawing from combat got added as a failsafe if assault is too strong, etc, yet we're still lumbered with all the random garbage which was half the problem in the first place? If random psychic powers are in the game too, my optimism might be all about spent.

Ditto.
Charge should have been 2x movement modified by terrain.
Overwatch should have gone back to 2nd ed style - place a marker and wait for some idjit to come into your line of fire, and fire.
If psychic powers, warlord traits and so on remain random as well, and numarines end up Wardmarines, then what a shame is all that is left to say.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Regardless it looks like charging with cheaper screening units, or just chaffe in general before engaging you beatstick 3.0 unit in combat is still a thing.

not really
you need to get as many units in contact with your charge as possible, and your screening units need to survive this

because if you just get one unit, it will be removed from compat and the other units around will shoot you
if the screening unit gets killed in Overwatch, your main unit also takes Overwatch damage and get shot the next turn

only if all units in weapon range and LOS are engaged in CC, your unit is save in the opponents phase

Zatsuku wrote:
I can live with 2d6" charges, but I really wish we didn't have to. Only a minor disappointment though.

It's not though. As long as you are within 12" from your target you basically get 1+2D6 inches for the charge. That's a 3" charge range even if you roll snake eyes which is really unlikely to happen. That's still a big step up from what we have right now (heck, even 5th Edition with it's standardized 6" charge range, if you roll a 5 with 2D6 you have that already, roll a 6 or more and it's even more than that!), especially if you factor in the likely 7" movement for Eldar and 8" for Gaunts and other small tyranids and the ability to assault after disembarking from transports right away, getting into charging range and combat will be alot easier now, especially if they handle wound allocation like AoS (the controlling player decides which models get removed, so you as the melee unit player get to remove guys in the back again rather than having to artifically kill your front men and putting more distance between you and the enemy, not to mention the whole mess with overwatch casualties and resulting failing charges).

Really glad about that 1" rule, it was always extremely annoying when some extremely petty opponent started an argument how the charge was supposedly 1-2 milimeters from their models base. Worst thing that happened to me in a tournament was one of them even pushing the closest figure in the assaulted squad further away while gesturing with the finger and before calling the judge, I had to control myself from charging and hitting...that guy... with the heaviest rulebook in reach.

Also regarding the news post, the following bit

You also can’t move within 1″ of an enemy you didn’t declare as the target of your charge, so if you want to engage multiple units, you’ll need to brave the overwatch fire of all of them. Overwatch can also be fired multiple times per phase, but as soon as the unit is engaged, they will no longer be able to fire back.

Seems to strongly imply that it is possible to assault multible units with one of yours if you declare a charge against all of them (even if you only make it into combat with one of them because of insufficient charge rolls - the obvious drawback of course being that for every additional unit you declare against you have to eat more overwatch fire), which would be quite a boon for assault armies and help deal with the whole "the one charged unit can just fall back and the attackers get shot to pieces" issue. If all units that could shoot at the now disengaged attackers aren't allowed to shoot anything because they are retreating themselves...

Didn't expect overwatch to still be in, but it might be needed to balance out the big buffs for (fast) assault units and particularly close combat horde armies against gunlines like Tau or IG.

Eyjio wrote:
TWhich blistering idiot kept 2d6" charges in the game when there's a perfectly good movement stat now?

why do we have d6 running instead of just double movement?

because random dice rolls for the sake of randomness is what the narrative of 40k is all about
the more random the rules, the more fun the player has

Some comments from GW on the face book page:

"We haven't got to assault yet. Stuff is gonna die, don't you worry."
"Hey Steve,We haven't gotten to assault yet - don't worry. Your crusaders are going to have a great time in the new edition."
"Hey Michael Ryan, Assault armies are going to do just fine. Remember, points and rules for every unit are being adjusted and, you haven't seen what combat look like yet. (Which we'll have tomorow)"
" There's far more to combat than charging, Blane. We'll see a bit more of it tomorow. People will fear the assault army, you'll see."

Quite excited for tomorow's update.

 RoboDragon wrote:
"It doesn't work quite like that, as you only have to get within 1" of the unit your charging, and you'll see tomorow, why "conga line" gunlines are going to be a really bad idea.
Like · Reply · "

This nearly confirms sweeping into other units after combat? I feel they are buffing overwatch because assault is going to be far more deadly.

I guess I need to invest in a bigger shovel to remove my Guard casualties with, now....

So, you can move, shoot, and then charge?

 paqman wrote:
Some comments from GW on the face book page:

"We haven't got to assault yet. Stuff is gonna die, don't you worry."
"Hey Steve,We haven't gotten to assault yet - don't worry. Your crusaders are going to have a great time in the new edition."
"Hey Michael Ryan, Assault armies are going to do just fine. Remember, points and rules for every unit are being adjusted and, you haven't seen what combat look like yet. (Which we'll have tomorow)"
" There's far more to combat than charging, Blane. We'll see a bit more of it tomorow. People will fear the assault army, you'll see."

Quite excited for tomorow's update.

I definately wouldn't read anything either way there, that's their standard format for assurances nowadays that applies whether the thing the person is worried about is going to happen or not.

 kodos wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Regardless it looks like charging with cheaper screening units, or just chaffe in general before engaging you beatstick 3.0 unit in combat is still a thing.

not really
you need to get as many units in contact with your charge as possible, and your screening units need to survive this

because if you just get one unit, it will be removed from compat and the other units around will shoot you
if the screening unit gets killed in Overwatch, your main unit also takes Overwatch damage and get shot the next turn

only if all units in weapon range and LOS are engaged in CC, your unit is save in the opponents phase

Hordes seem to be looking good with the changes so far, so taking large groups of flack units seems to be a good way to help tie up enemy units, perhaps even through multi-charging so that the more melee oriented units can engage safely.

While double move for charge range, or movement plus a die roll would make sense for different charge ranges I can see why they ultimately stuck with the 2d6 method: lower threshold to understanding making the game less about blindly memorizing every stat block to judge charge ranges and allowing people to focus less on needing to calculate charge distances and ultimately slow gameplay down, especially with newer players. I can see some units having bonuses and/or rerolls to charge distances though so it's not like faster units will be less likely to get into combat.

how often do several units declare a charge on the same enemy unit? I don't think unlimited overwatch will be an issue at all.

Maybe for Tau, if they can still overwatch even whwn not directrly charged.

For now I'm loving all the changes. If they port the 'one stance of the same spell cast per army' from AoS, not even the Psychic Phase will be that dread for my Tau.

And the last article just tells me Longstrike teached the entire universe the joy of unlimited Overwatch, lol