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 insaniak wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Heavy weapons only having a -1 to hit while moving seems very generous to me.

In the context of a game that has traditionally required heavy weapons to stand still, it does seem generous. I like it, though... potentially makes for a more mobile game, and more use out of heavies, as you don't waste turns getting them into position or waiting for something to walk in front of them. There's not really any inherent reason that heavy weapons should require models to not move that turn... that was just the abstraction that was previously built into the system.


Having said that, it also goes one more step towards this edition being about killing things even faster than ever before... which I'm less fond of.

Well, if they're not going to bring down the scale of the game in terms of the number of models on the table(they're not) and they're not going to simplify the rules to an almost comical extent(they're not), hugely ramping up the lethality is really the only way to make the game play quicker.

Don't worry though, I'm sure GW will soon have a branded, high quality Miniature Management System(dustpan & brush and a big ol' bucket) for sale to help horde army players shovel their casualties

 kodos wrote:

Eyjio wrote:
TWhich blistering idiot kept 2d6" charges in the game when there's a perfectly good movement stat now?

why do we have d6 running instead of just double movement?

because random dice rolls for the sake of randomness is what the narrative of 40k is all about
the more random the rules, the more fun the player has

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1769224/determinism-and-randomness-boardgames

The best use of randomness in a thematic game is to simulate the unpredictability of the real-life scenarios that fit the theme of that game. The keyword here is 'simulate'. It is important for the random outcome to mimic the probability of that outcome in the real-life scenario that is being simulated. Here, the properties of the mechanism used to generate the random outcomes need to be considered carefully.

When a simulation is successful, the game is satisfying, because it manages to replicate realistic situations. When it fails, we become aware of the shortcomings of the mechanism used in generating the random outcome.

When you hear people shouting with glee at a tournament it's because they nailed that extremely close random result.

Ragnar69 wrote:
how often do several units declare a charge on the same enemy unit? I don't think unlimited overwatch will be an issue at all.

Maybe for Tau, if they can still overwatch even whwn not directrly charged.

I have a feeling you can basically activate charging units independently instead of making the choice all at once which ones will charge, making it so you don't have to potentially accidentally sacrifice your stronger units if the others fail their charges.

But that is just speculation.

Everything so far sounds amazing for my Shoota Space Marines, choppy Orks, and my multi Chaos armies.

But what I'm most looking forward to are the points cost adjustments.

My overall impressions is still very positive, but this is deffo the most disappointing update yet.

I was really hoping they'd ditch overwatch. Such a time-consuming and random mechanic that might do nothing and might decimate a unit. Sigh.

I was really hoping for a less random charge, but I can live with that too.

 docdoom77 wrote:
My overall impressions is still very positive, but this is deffo the most disappointing update yet.

I was really hoping they'd ditch overwatch. Such a time-consuming and random mechanic that might do nothing and might decimate a unit. Sigh.

I was really hoping for a less random charge, but I can live with that too.

My rolling is so bad that I can count on both hands how many times a model died to my overwatch. I've only ever seen it make a big impact with that psychic power that I can't remember the name of at the moment....forewarning?

 docdoom77 wrote:
My overall impressions is still very positive, but this is deffo the most disappointing update yet.

I was really hoping they'd ditch overwatch. Such a time-consuming and random mechanic that might do nothing and might decimate a unit. Sigh.

I was really hoping for a less random charge, but I can live with that too.

Command points to Overwatch or needing to set aside an action to Overwatch would have been better in my opinion than this, but the good news if it turns out to be as bad as we fear there is a solid change that it's something that can change. Living rules definitely have an advantage here when it comes to things like this so I'll be waiting to see if it's as bad as it seems to be and submit feedback as needed.

I'm actually looking forwards to this, the final realisation that you can modify dice rolls without only one roll getting the modifiers is wonderful.

e.g. stuff that makes you harder to hit, modify the 'to hit' roll, stuff that you can actually hide behind, modify the 'to save' roll, the further option I've not heard of but hope to see is toughness modifiers - e.g. a tank being tougher on the front.

Could also be used for stuff like MkIII marines, tougher from the front - so powerful stuff won't care but its good against small arms.

Templates going? not crying over that, I welcome the ability to use movement trays, even the bolt action simple ones for three models (the new round ones from Warlord as well), if there is a rule that a blast or template type weapon doing a random number of hit to a unit cannot do more than one hit to any individual model I'd be even happier.

A units rules on its stat sheet.. by gork yes, removing the need to look up a special rule, that when you find it turns out to simply grant one or two other special rules, that when you find them simply note "+1 attack" or similar... yes not crying over that.

Dare say the stat sheets we get on day one will be a bit basic and bland, don't care if they get replaced over time.

Movement Stat coming back, glad to see you old friend, and goodby all the special rules that were brought in to compensate...

Chargers hitting first? meah, preferred initiative personally - with initiative modifiers for weapons and situations but will take the abstraction - just wonder how long before "Always Strikes First" will appear..

Pistols useful in close combat, finally...


Happy so far, indeed so far not seeing anything I don't actually like

Ok, at least overwatch is still in. That's some good news for a change.

This seems like it might make Striking Scorpions somewhat powerful again. If Mantiblasters become first strike las pistols again as per 2nd edition. And Shuriken pistols have bladestorm (-1 additional rend). This means they work as follows:

Shoot opponent with pistol, Charge your opponent, Strike them with Mantiblasters, then swing chainsword at opponent.

Next turn, Shoot with pistol, Strike with Mantiblaster, Swing with chainsword.

If people are worried about a unit shooting at their chargers with overwatch, wouldn't it make sense to soften that unit up a bit with er, shooting, before you charged it, and thus make your charge less likely to be affected by overwatch?

I will vomit if Tau's overwatch assist rules go unchanged into 8th edition with the new multiple overwatch per unit rule.

"Okay, my Orks are going to charge that Fire Warrior unit."
"Sure, I'll overwatch, and my Riptide, Stealth Suits and Broadsides are all going to shoot at you too."
"Okay, I succeeded my charge, so my second mob will charge the Broadsides."
"Sure, so the Riptide, Suits and Broadsides get to shoot at this unit too."
"Okay, my second mob failed their charge, but the third mob is declaring the same charge."
"Sure, now all three of my Tau units are firing a *third* time during your turn! My 4 units shot 10 times during your charge phase!"

Emperor help us if overwatch BS modifiers carry over into 8th too.

Damn... I can't wait to see the rules change that they promised that makes assault viable in 8th edition.

Currently, if you want your army to do the majority of its damage by punching things rather than shooting them, you must do one of two things.

1) blob everything together with 6,000 interlocking layers of special rules and a handful of broken psychic powers making it all but invincible and then multi-charge everything

2) spam a handful of broken units like GSC metamorphs, Flesh Hounds, etc that are so overtuned they can run the gauntlet of shooting-favoring rules that is 7th ed and still win.

Everything else, the dozens of units that would love to get into assault, is basically DOA. And what are we doing to fix that with 8th so far? Well, let's see:


-Sweep is gone, replaced with battleshock, which affects both the winner and the loser in combat. Might be good, might be bad, but in general it'll probably just be a couple extra casualties your assault units will take.

-Chargers strike first. This helps some factions, like Orks and Necrons, who would take extra casualties charging into marines and the like who strike before them, but will royally feth factions like Deldar and Harlequins who can now just be charged by guardsmen, fire warriors, whatever, and they won't be hard at all to wipe out because

-Weapon Skill can no longer make you harder to hit, it just makes it easier to hit opponents.

-Unless some unforseen rule appears, Vehicles are much, much, much harder to kill in assault, and now get to Overwatch. Oh joy, one of the few edge cases where an assault unit was more effective than a shooting unit is gone, because we no longer hit vehicles in the rear and now they have basic saves vs assaults. Even if it got only T6 and a 4+ save, a unit of ork boyz that would previously be able to glance out a Rhino is now not going to have a prayer.

-Units can just walk out of melee with you, allowing you to get shot by other units. This one is a real nail in the coffin, as if there isn't some kind of powerful sweeping advance/catchup mechanic allowing you to get back into combat, fragile assault armies might be well and truly screwed (combined of course with how garbage cover is with low armor values or units that rely on invulns like Daemons and Harlequins, where it won't do anything)

-Special weapons cause more wounds, and everything seems to be getting more wounds across the board to compensate, while the number of base attacks looks to be the same in everything we've seen so far. This means special weapons vs statlines is about the same (if more random....yaaaay....random for the sake of random...) but the power of average dudes striking with basic attacks goes way down.

-If you fail a charge, the unit you tried to charge gets to overwatch again. More of an insult to injury change than anything, but still. did we really need this?


But don't worry, it'll all be OK! Because if you get through your assault phase, then the enemy's assault phase (provided they didn't just walk away in the movement phase), then in your shooting phase you might get to fire your pistols!

Assault is saved!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
If people are worried about a unit shooting at their chargers with overwatch, wouldn't it make sense to soften that unit up a bit with er, shooting, before you charged it, and thus make your charge less likely to be affected by overwatch?

Worried about assault armies in 8th edition?

Have you tried not playing an assault army?

To me the 2d6 is disappointing because we went from everything moves the same distance to a move stat that allows distinction between faster and slower units..... Except when they charge then we are all the same again. Understandable but disappointing

I'm not worried about assault armies, I would welcome it. I don't play 40k anymore (still have a passing interest) but in days past, gunning down hordes of Orks was always a favourite aspect of playing 40k.

Overwatch is still in the game, but is now used an unlimited number of times until you're engaged in combat?

...I'm not feeling it. I'll try to stay positive though.

 keltikhoa wrote:
To me the 2d6 is disappointing because we went from everything moves the same distance to a move stat that allows distinction between faster and slower units..... Except when they charge then we are all the same again. Understandable but disappointing

I can see where you're coming from. The superhuman space marine charges 3 inches, whilst the average joe guard trooper could charge 12 inches.

I was never a fan of infantry footslogging across the battlefield, preferring mechanised warfare and transports for the troops so they wouldn't have to worry about charge distances.

It didn't always work, but that's how I played it.

guys, wait for the whole picture; or more ideally, a game or two played before naysaying. Things literally couldn't have gotten worse for assault. Even with malice intent, there's no further down they could have dug for orks and nids.

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Overwatch is still in the game, but is now used an unlimited number of times until you're engaged in combat?

...I'm not feeling it. I'll try to stay positive though.

In an ideal world, a unit would only get to use overwatch once per turn.

Sorry if this was established already but Overwatch won't be such a terrible problem for assault armies as long as they don't make wound allocation come from the closest models anymore.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

While double move for charge range, or movement plus a die roll would make sense for different charge ranges I can see why they ultimately stuck with the 2d6 method: lower threshold to understanding making the game less about blindly memorizing every stat block to judge charge ranges and allowing people to focus less on needing to calculate charge distances and ultimately slow gameplay down,.

really?
I dont see why remembering the basic movement you used 1 minute ago and measuring the double should be slowing the game more down than rolling a dice for a random movement each time




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Overwatch is still in the game, but is now used an unlimited number of times until you're engaged in combat?

...I'm not feeling it. I'll try to stay positive though.

In an ideal world, a unit would only get to use overwatch once per turn.

in an ideal world, a unit would need to skip it's shooting phase to use overtatch the next turn

If they use AoS's casualty removal system then overwatch could be ok. Multiple times though. That sounds troubling.

And I always thought that charging should be your movement plus a d6. Exactly like running...because it is running.

But it's too early to tell yet. For all I know this could work out brilliantly.

Remember, not only would you need to track your movement phase, but your opponent would too. Plus with a flat double movement charge WHFB had issues with games runniing slow thanks to people skirting charges through maintaining a fixed distance between them and the charging unit that they knew was the opposing unit's charge range. Randomness actually eliminated this issue.

And much like Overwatch being something that I am hesitant about, this is a living ruleset so if changing charge rules makes the game better the community can push for it (likely movement + D6" if we use movement to deermine charge ranges) .

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 keltikhoa wrote:
To me the 2d6 is disappointing because we went from everything moves the same distance to a move stat that allows distinction between faster and slower units..... Except when they charge then we are all the same again. Understandable but disappointing

I can see where you're coming from. The superhuman space marine charges 3 inches, whilst the average joe guard trooper could charge 12 inches.

I was never a fan of infantry footslogging across the battlefield, preferring mechanised warfare and transports for the troops so they wouldn't have to worry about charge distances.

It didn't always work, but that's how I played it.

Maybe 1D6 and add your Move stat for a charge, instead of 2d6?

the_scotsman wrote:
1) blob everything together with 6,000 interlocking layers of special rules and a handful of broken psychic powers making it all but invincible and then multi-charge everything

2) spam a handful of broken units like GSC metamorphs, Flesh Hounds, etc that are so overtuned they can run the gauntlet of shooting-favoring rules that is 7th ed and still win.

This.

Charging is broken. I cannot see why they wouldn't change it.

The 2d6 system doesn't work. It makes about as much sense as saying every unit should have to roll a certain number of dice to determine the range on their guns.
Overwatch has become far too lethal. Points changes, gun profiles, all of this might change. As it stands now however assault armies are either crap (most of them) or massive skews (Hi Space Wolves) where you might as well roll a dice at the start of the game. On a 5/6 you win in a tedious fashion, on a 1-4 you were shot off the table in three turns having accomplished next to nothing.

I really don't see the point in bringing back the movement stat if most movement ignores it. So if the basic movement value for normal infantry is between 4-7 and then you get d6 running(forgot the new name for it) and the randomness kills the small differences in movements between the units. And then when you charge your movement value again doesn't matter you just roll 2 d6. I really don't understand the reasoning in bringing MV back. Fixed charge range like double movement would have added value to positioning. Keeping your units out of charge range of the enemy and getting the charge yourself. Clever positioning would have been rewarded.

This seems like a half assed aproach. Yea, the fans want the movement value back, so we are giving it back but without much thought.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 keltikhoa wrote:
To me the 2d6 is disappointing because we went from everything moves the same distance to a move stat that allows distinction between faster and slower units..... Except when they charge then we are all the same again. Understandable but disappointing

I can see where you're coming from. The superhuman space marine charges 3 inches, whilst the average joe guard trooper could charge 12 inches.

I was never a fan of infantry footslogging across the battlefield, preferring mechanised warfare and transports for the troops so they wouldn't have to worry about charge distances.

It didn't always work, but that's how I played it.

Maybe 1D6 and add your Move stat for a charge, instead of 2d6?

That's what I was expecting. I'm disappointed with retaining 2d6.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Remember, not only would you need to track your movement phase, but your opponent would too. Plus with a flat double movement charge WHFB had issues with games runniing slow thanks to people skirting charges through maintaining a fixed distance between them and the charging unit that they knew was the opposing unit's charge range. Randomness actually eliminated this issue.

And much like Overwatch being something that I am hesitant about, this is a living ruleset so if changing charge rules makes the game better the community can push for it (likely movement + D6" if we use movement to deermine charge ranges) .

You know the random charge still has an upper 12" range you can just as easily skirt right?

Please explain how armies in 40k being able to skirt a guaranteed 12" was solved by making a charge likely to be less than 12"?

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 keltikhoa wrote:
To me the 2d6 is disappointing because we went from everything moves the same distance to a move stat that allows distinction between faster and slower units..... Except when they charge then we are all the same again. Understandable but disappointing

I can see where you're coming from. The superhuman space marine charges 3 inches, whilst the average joe guard trooper could charge 12 inches.

I was never a fan of infantry footslogging across the battlefield, preferring mechanised warfare and transports for the troops so they wouldn't have to worry about charge distances.

It didn't always work, but that's how I played it.

Maybe 1D6 and add your Move stat for a charge, instead of 2d6?

Meaning that there's almost never a reason to take any unit with a slow move speed? Move + d6" doesn't really scale between units and makse slower melee units even less viable then they are already.

Besides, would you really want to see Necron Wraiths charging 18" on turn 1? No, no you would not.

Simply put, I think the Fight Phase is going to really have to favor assaulty/charging units to really keep CC armies relevant. And while I hope they don't overdo it either, GW seems to be hinting at such things on Facebook and Twitter comments, so perhaps there will be a higher risk/higher reward element to assault...?