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 ClockworkZion wrote:

Overwatch is a flat 6 to hit, not a -1 unless that's a T'au thing I missed.

Oops you're right so knock that down a peg.

Also you need to only be within an inch to charge so a minor plus there. And the ability to wrap in other units with your 3" move is another small plus.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Strange to me that the Gullimarines would use the other primarchs geneseed still.

Obviously this was just to appease everyone and allow them to plug into existing forces, but from a fluff point of view in not buying it

Why wouldn't they be using all the different Geneseed? That makes more sense from a fluff perspective, do you think that certain chapters would accept marines of a different Primarch's stock? They would see themselves as dying out, rather than getting stronger.

But they are dying out. The nu Marines are basically dirt in the face for reserve companies and the scouts.

I just find it odd that a Guilliman sponsored project 10, 000 years in the making would even consider using his inferior brothers geneseed without even knowing what has happened to it since he woke up from his nap... We already know most other Loyalist geneseed is rarely used for obvious reasons. Had he known I'm sure certain chapters would not be allowed to continue.

It's hardly dirt in the face of current marines, they are still capable super soldiers. I can see how some of them would be jealous or resentful of the new soldiers, and I am sure that is something that will be covered in the fluff. I think this is more interesting than anything.

And "inferior" geneseed is still used very commonly in the fluff, maybe less so than others, though this works for making them more accepted in to their chapters. If the geneseed doesn't work out, then they will stop.

Who is to say that geneseed that was previously inferior wouldn't be made more superior and vice versa after the changes?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I was thinking while away from my internet connection and at work, that perhaps we only got a partial datasheet for the Primaris Marines. Especially with the model that shows the plasma gun.

We have the datasheet for the Intercessor Squad (which has been confirmed not to have an option for Heavy or Assault weapons). What we haven't seen is if there are other types of squads of Primaris Space Marines beyond the Intercessor Squad armed with weapons beyond the Bolt Rifle.

Reese wrote:

No worries Rippy! Thought something was amiss based on what I've seen from following your posts in my lurking.

I know it is early over there. And thanks for updating the thread for everyone!

No worries mate! I went to bed early last night, so hopefully will be able to stay up to 12-12:30am when the article drops so I can update right away!

Edit: thankfully the mods have been updating the title for discussion when I am sleeping

 Ghaz wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I was thinking while away from my internet connection and at work, that perhaps we only got a partial datasheet for the Primaris Marines. Especially with the model that shows the plasma gun.

We have the datasheet for the Intercessor Squad (which has been confirmed not to have an option for Heavy or Assault weapons). What we haven't seen is if there are other types of squads of Primaris Space Marines beyond the Intercessor Squad armed with weapons beyond the Bolt Rifle.

Missed the confirmation. Still missing the Sergeant's wargear since we saw im with a power sword and bolt pistol.

Which still means the may not be locked in at 5 models.

That said, a troops choice that has no options could make for an interesting army in how it all fits together and synergizes (assuming every squad is a specialist of some kind and doesn't mix and match roles like regular Marines) but that kind of army can fall apart with some dedicated fire power aimed at a specific point in the army.

 Ghaz wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I was thinking while away from my internet connection and at work, that perhaps we only got a partial datasheet for the Primaris Marines. Especially with the model that shows the plasma gun.

We have the datasheet for the Intercessor Squad (which has been confirmed not to have an option for Heavy or Assault weapons). What we haven't seen is if there are other types of squads of Primaris Space Marines beyond the Intercessor Squad armed with weapons beyond the Bolt Rifle.

We kind of have..

 pretre wrote:
Not sure if this has been posted:



Plasma.

Just to come back about the CC they said on Facebook if a t'au is suround by orcs for exemple and don't have enough space they cannot fall back, that could be a tactic for CC army's against t'au.

So... why do the Bolt Rifles do more damage?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So... why do the Bolt Rifles do more damage?

Because like alot of guns in the real world, bigger is better, more power.

Edit: probably bigger ammo too

Yes, I should have been a little more specific and said we don't have any information from GW about any Primaris Space Marine squads beyond the Intercessor Squad. Its a sure bet that there will be other squads beyond just Intercessor Squads.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Still missing the Sergeant's wargear since we saw im with a power sword and bolt pistol..

Depends on whether or not Game Workshop is keeping with the traditions and markings they they've laid down in Insignium Astartes and their own Studio armies. In the debut video for the Primaris Space Marines, there's a shot or two of what looks to be a squad or two of Space Marines. The squad looks like it's made up of four Primaris Marines and one Primaris Marine that has a red helmet, all armed with bolters. Going by Insignium Astartes and GW's current Studio armies, the red helmeted Primaris Marine should be the Sergeant. The Primaris Marine that has the white-red-white livery running down his helmet and is armed with the bolt pistol and power sword might be a character of some kind (maybe akain to the Space Marine Commander).

Well there's the jump pack squad. We've seen a teeny tiny pic of them.

 Ghaz wrote:
Yes, I should have been a little more specific and said we don't have any information from GW about any Primaris Space Marine squads beyond the Intercessor Squad. Its a sure bet that there will be other squads beyond just Intercessor Squads.

In.. one of the things (the newsletter I think) they said something to the effect of more Primaris Marines and Vehicles are on the way.. I think it's just a matter of special and heavy weapons being specifically relegated to squads that are dedicated to those tasks. To me that makes sense from a fluff standpoint too.. The older Astartes would have had time to drill and train on numerous weapon systems.. plus their superior genes (I can't type that with a straight face) means they are just all around more capable. I full expect the PMarines to have heavy and special kits available but I expect them to be separated out into their own boxes and initially all the army will be 5 man squads. (my prediction anyway.. calling it now).

I wonder if the space wolf gene seed requiring fenrisians is going to be retconned for the numarines.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Well there's the jump pack squad. We've seen a teeny tiny pic of them.

Link? I haven't seen that one apparently.

 Bulldogging wrote:
I wonder if the space wolf gene seed requiring fenrisians is going to be retconned for the numarines.

Correct me if I am wrong, but there are still some Fenrisian refugees are there not? If not, they will have to retcon it, state that the new geneseed is different and doesn't require Fenrisians, or get rid of Space Yiffs.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Lysenis wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Honest to God, I cannot fathom whatsoever why GW thought Tau being bad in close combat was a problem that needed fixing. They mow through charging units. They lose a model or two in close combat, then they waltz right back out of combat and don't even have the ONE drawback that actually matters to them for doing a Fall Back. What the hell?

Seriously, GW keeps saying close combat is going to be brutal. In what way? Since the Fight article they have literally shown absolutely nothing whatsoever that lends credence to that statement. They really need to put up or shut up.

Yes, yes, becuase we have a full rule book with all the stats for every faction. You are obviously right. Command level assumptions there.

I don't want the rules for ever fething faction. They said close combat would be brutal. They have not demonstrated that whatsoever. A fethload of bespoke rules should not have to be in place for a unit to be ADEQUATE at close fething combat.

Worst of all is when you see a monster at shooting thats supposed to crumple like tissue paper when in hand to hand gets rules that nullify hand to hand units. The tau have special rules that castrate your close combat units.

 Bulldogging wrote:
I wonder if the space wolf gene seed requiring fenrisians is going to be retconned for the numarines.

That was never 100% the case in the first place, as the entire first generation of Space Wolves (before Russ was found and they started recruiting Fenrisians) were from Terra and already had the geneseed (heck, in Prospero Burns one of them is even a Rune Priest).

After that the Wolves never even really tried to get recruits from other planets than Fenris as far as I can see from the fluff, and while the what happened to the Wolf Brothers could be related to recruitment, them mutating and going full Chaos Wulfen (at least those that popped up in Battle for the Fang, which still were several great companies at least) might as well be related to overall instability issues with the gene seed or other external circumstances (most of the chapter getting swallowed by the warp during travelling, their home planet getting swallowed by the warp, not having enough wolf and rune priests to keep a sudden wulfen pandemic in check, direct involvement of Magnus going after them first before attacking Fenris for the first time etc. etc.).
Until Magnus melted most of the land the Fenrisian tribes were living on, there was always enough recruitment potential on Fenris to get back to their 2500+ strength, even after basically losing roughly half the chapter when they funded the Wolf Brothers, they even had enough Fenrisian mortals to have entire regiments of them as quasi PDF and fill out all the other non-Astartes roles in the chapter (e.g. the crews of their ships in their entirety) so there wasn't any point for them in bothering with the logistics and effort required to set up off-world recruitment. Some worlds like Garm (part of the SW 'empire') were settled by the same colonists as Fenris was AFAIR, so their genetics should be fine for that.

If anything the Wolves need a quick stop-gap solution to get back to strength until they figure their recruitment issues out as they lost a large junk of their manpower as well as most their recruitment ability, Primaris Marines and the likely return of Russ should do nicely.

@Tau and Crisis suits jumping out of combat:
If them being able to fire after retreating from combat is going to replace their whole "jump, shoot, jump" schtick then I don't see why everyone seems to act like the sky is falling. Right now it is almost impossible to actually get in combat with Crisis suits because they can just jump a huge distance away from you while still shooting often for maximum effect, enabling them to keep out of effective assault range of most units indefinitely and kite them to death.
If that's gone you can now actually get in combat with them (particularly with a high movement stat) with the new and nasty stuff that assault units are getting, particularly D3 or D6 damage melee weapons will do a number on them. Sure, they get to disengage and shoot afterwards, what is left of them anyways which might not be much. And if Crisis suits are priced appropriately pointswise that losing most or even an entire of them will result in a huge handicap for the Tau player...
Looks like an improvement for murdering them in CC to me.

Same with the "For the Greater Good", we have no idea if Tau will even have any way of improving their overwatch to hit chance. The big problem in this edition is with them basically getting to fire at often full BS with several units at anyone who charges them, if they are stuck with hitting on a 6+ like everyone else and the support fire of other units has limited range... or units can charge out of moving vehicles ... then it will be much less of a problem than it is now. And if players equip their Crisis with Flamers to make up for it then it means less plasma and missiles will be flying your way at range which is great if you are playing MEQ or TEQ. Not to mention casualty removal from the front being very likely gone which would remove one of the main reasons why tau overwatch fire was so extremely strong against melee units.

Also, correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I remember we still don't know whether or not units in combat will be able to prevent units from falling back, by e.g requiring the unit to pass an equivalent of a initiative test or something similar?

It's not like a Khorne Bezerker could not move 8" then get its 2d6" Move+ Advance followed by a 3" shift and lastly need to be in an inch... Hell thats what 19" average threat.... Sorry bit that sounds down right insane.

So many things could be going on here... So many. Even if you do get shot at during the charge, everything in range attempts to charge and they likely can't shoot every single one with every unit.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So... why do the Bolt Rifles do more damage?

To make you go out and replace your entire Marine army, naturally.

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:

Spoiler:

 Bulldogging wrote:
I wonder if the space wolf gene seed requiring fenrisians is going to be retconned for the numarines.

That was never 100% the case in the first place, as the entire first generation of Space Wolves (before Russ was found and they started recruiting Fenrisians) were from Terra and already had the geneseed (heck, in Prospero Burns one of them is even a Rune Priest).

After that the Wolves never even really tried to get recruits from other planets than Fenris as far as I can see from the fluff, and while the what happened to the Wolf Brothers could be related to recruitment, them mutating and going full Chaos Wulfen (at least those that popped up in Battle for the Fang, which still were several great companies at least) might as well be related to overall instability issues with the gene seed or other external circumstances (most of the chapter getting swallowed by the warp during travelling, their home planet getting swallowed by the warp, not having enough wolf and rune priests to keep a sudden wulfen pandemic in check, etc. etc.).
Until Magnus melted most of the land the Fenrisian tribes were living on, there was always enough recruitment potential on Fenris to get back to their 2500+ strength, even after basically losing roughly half the chapter when they funded the Wolf Brothers, they even had enough Fenrisian mortals to have entire regiments of them as quasi PDF and fill out all the other non-Astartes roles in the chapter (e.g. the crews of their ships in their entirety) so there wasn't any point for them in bothering with the logistics and effort required to set up off-world recruitment. Some worlds like Garm (part of the SW 'empire') were settled by the same colonists as Fenris was AFAIR, so their genetics should be fine for that.

If anything the Wolves need a quick stop-gap solution to get back to strength until they figure their recruitment issues out as they lost a large junk of their manpower as well as most their recruitment ability, Primaris Marines and the likely return of Russ should do nicely.

@Tau and Crisis suits jumping out of combat:
If them being able to fire after retreating from combat is going to replace their whole "jump, shoot, jump" schtick then I don't see why everyone seems to act like the sky is falling. Right now it is almost impossible to actually get in combat with Crisis suits because they can just jump a huge distance away from you while still shooting often for maximum effect, enabling them to keep out of effective assault range of most units and kite them to death.
If that's gone you can now actually get in combat with them (particularly with a high movement stat) with the new and nasty stuff that assault units are getting, particularly D3 or D6 damage melee weapons will do a number on them. Sure, they get to disengage and shoot afterwards, what is left of them anyways which might not be much. And if Crisis suits are priced appropriately pointswise that losing most or even an entire of them will result in a huge handicap for the Tau player...
Looks like an improvement for murdering them in CC to me.

Same with the "For the Greater Good", we have no idea if Tau will even have any way of improving their overwatch to hit chance. The big problem in this edition is with them basically getting to fire at often full BS with several units at anyone who charges them, if they are stuck with hitting on a 6+ like everyone else and the support fire of other units has limited range... or units can charge out of moving vehicles ... then it will be much less of a problem than it is now. And if players equip their Crisis with Flamers to make up for it then it means less plasma and missiles will be flying your way at range which is great if you are playing MEQ or TEQ.

Also, correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I remember we still don't know whether or not units in combat will be able to prevent units from falling back, by e.g requiring the unit to pass an equivalent of a initiative test or something similar?

Correct. We don't know what else think like Lash Whips Claws, Fear like effects, etc will be a thing.

It also makes sense that the T'au would have abilities like that where the Guard would not. Since the guard can easily set up rank withdrawals.

>T'au
It makes me cri everytime

 Just Tony wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So... why do the Bolt Rifles do more damage?

To make you go out and replace your entire Marine army, naturally.

With entire squads that only have S4 bolter fire to offer for a higher price than Tacs, while not being able to equip any special or heavy weapons, wohoooooooo.
Another 6" of range and -1 AP won't do much for them if they cost many more points than Tacs, have zero flexibility particularly against tanks, and are limited to small unit sizes.

As far as I see it they are an elite unit you use to beef up your lines by throwing in some additional bolter fire and being relatively good in close combat with their additional attack (now that having a pistol+CCW is likely no longer giving you an additional attack and with no additional attacks on the charge being confirmed that will matter much more).
I mean if one has tunnel-vision and goes with the whole "but if they are strictly better than everyone will replace the weaker grunts with them" argument then I wonder why IG players are not squeezing in as many Scions/Stormtroopers in any list as they can because they are strictly better than regular guardsmen if you ignore the point cost difference (and hey, Scions can at least have special weapons in addition to having a basic weapon that is statistically stronger against 3+ save units than a bolter is).

Daedalus81 wrote:

 KommissarKiln wrote:
My thoughts on the Numarine & Tau articles without having read any other posts:

Numarines: They're regular Marines with an A/W buff, and slightly better guns. Oh, and their pauldrons aren't so wacky looking in terms of scale. Aside from that, they're Space Marines. GW's lack of originality in that model line is honestly painful. For the number of kits they've released, SM must be the least diverse model line I've seen. And that's coming from a Guard player where all non-Russ vehicles have an identical sprue.

Tau: I will safely conclude that if 2/3 units they mention can fall back from combat and still shoot, it will be the case for many other units ($10 says Riptides will have a similar or identical rule). That was one of the only things assault armies had on Tau: stopping them from shooting if you could survive rounds of shooting and overwatch. And with the lack of any mentioned nerfs against a decidedly very strong army, I have grown quite concerned about the game's balance very suddenly; even the Eldar article didn't have me as worried.

Overall, I found today pretty disappointing.

Keep in mind if the unit can't fly it probably can't fall back if it's surrounded.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warboss wrote:


That's a good point. I'd expect GW to price them at sigmarine levels which when I looked 2 years ago were pretty pricey per fig. As for the side by side shot, there is one shot in the youtube video on GW's channel that has the numariens next to old 3rd-7th ed style plastics although it's shot at an angle.

You may be happy to find out they reboxed all the Sigmarines into boxes of 10 and dropped the price by a bit over 10%.

10%? Wasn't it more like 25%?

 Rippy wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So... why do the Bolt Rifles do more damage?

Because like alot of guns in the real world, bigger is better, more power.

Yeah. It's like the difference between Guard plasma guns and Marine plas... Er... The difference between hand held stormbolters and pintle stormbol... Uh... The difference between terminator assault cannons and dreadnought assaul.... No... Uh...


Yeah. It might just be because we're supposed to buy these guys instead of regular Marines.

I'll probably just throw my deathwatch away or give them to someone. Learned my lesson about giving GW that dirty marine money.

I was just about to start working on them too. Was starting to glue them and get ready for painting. Now all of those rpg adventures of being elite feel like a letdown. A make sure to buy your ovaltine lesson for sure. I'm never touching another marine model if I don't have to.

Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
Spoiler: Click to Hide

Spoiler:

Bulldogging wrote:
I wonder if the space wolf gene seed requiring fenrisians is going to be retconned for the numarines.

That was never 100% the case in the first place, as the entire first generation of Space Wolves (before Russ was found and they started recruiting Fenrisians) were from Terra and already had the geneseed (heck, in Prospero Burns one of them is even a Rune Priest).

After that the Wolves never even really tried to get recruits from other planets than Fenris as far as I can see from the fluff, and while the what happened to the Wolf Brothers could be related to recruitment, them mutating and going full Chaos Wulfen (at least those that popped up in Battle for the Fang, which still were several great companies at least) might as well be related to overall instability issues with the gene seed or other external circumstances (most of the chapter getting swallowed by the warp during travelling, their home planet getting swallowed by the warp, not having enough wolf and rune priests to keep a sudden wulfen pandemic in check, etc. etc.).
Until Magnus melted most of the land the Fenrisian tribes were living on, there was always enough recruitment potential on Fenris to get back to their 2500+ strength, even after basically losing roughly half the chapter when they funded the Wolf Brothers, they even had enough Fenrisian mortals to have entire regiments of them as quasi PDF and fill out all the other non-Astartes roles in the chapter (e.g. the crews of their ships in their entirety) so there wasn't any point for them in bothering with the logistics and effort required to set up off-world recruitment. Some worlds like Garm (part of the SW 'empire') were settled by the same colonists as Fenris was AFAIR, so their genetics should be fine for that.

If anything the Wolves need a quick stop-gap solution to get back to strength until they figure their recruitment issues out as they lost a large junk of their manpower as well as most their recruitment ability, Primaris Marines and the likely return of Russ should do nicely.

@Tau and Crisis suits jumping out of combat:
If them being able to fire after retreating from combat is going to replace their whole "jump, shoot, jump" schtick then I don't see why everyone seems to act like the sky is falling. Right now it is almost impossible to actually get in combat with Crisis suits because they can just jump a huge distance away from you while still shooting often for maximum effect, enabling them to keep out of effective assault range of most units and kite them to death.
If that's gone you can now actually get in combat with them (particularly with a high movement stat) with the new and nasty stuff that assault units are getting, particularly D3 or D6 damage melee weapons will do a number on them. Sure, they get to disengage and shoot afterwards, what is left of them anyways which might not be much. And if Crisis suits are priced appropriately pointswise that losing most or even an entire of them will result in a huge handicap for the Tau player...
Looks like an improvement for murdering them in CC to me.

Same with the "For the Greater Good", we have no idea if Tau will even have any way of improving their overwatch to hit chance. The big problem in this edition is with them basically getting to fire at often full BS with several units at anyone who charges them, if they are stuck with hitting on a 6+ like everyone else and the support fire of other units has limited range... or units can charge out of moving vehicles ... then it will be much less of a problem than it is now. And if players equip their Crisis with Flamers to make up for it then it means less plasma and missiles will be flying your way at range which is great if you are playing MEQ or TEQ.

Also, correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I remember we still don't know whether or not units in combat will be able to prevent units from falling back, by e.g requiring the unit to pass an equivalent of a initiative test or something similar?

Correct. We don't know what else think like Lash Whips Claws, Fear like effects, etc will be a thing.

It also makes sense that the Tau would have abilities like that where the Guard would not. Since the guard can easily set up rank withdrawals.

All true. But like many others I am at the point where nothing they have said has led me to believe that Assault is a viable option in this edition. While there is ample evidence of anti-assault rules/effects that will be in play. I'll continue to pay attention in hope that 40k once again becomes a game that is enjoyable to play. While my decision does not hinge upon assault, that certainly is one of the considerations. But my early optimism is fading quickly.

BlueGrassGamer wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Still missing the Sergeant's wargear since we saw im with a power sword and bolt pistol..

Depends on whether or not Game Workshop is keeping with the traditions and markings they they've laid down in Insignium Astartes and their own Studio armies. In the debut video for the Primaris Space Marines, there's a shot or two of what looks to be a squad or two of Space Marines. The squad looks like it's made up of four Primaris Marines and one Primaris Marine that has a red helmet, all armed with bolters. Going by Insignium Astartes and GW's current Studio armies, the red helmeted Primaris Marine should be the Sergeant. The Primaris Marine that has the white-red-white livery running down his helmet and is armed with the bolt pistol and power sword might be a character of some kind (maybe akain to the Space Marine Commander).

White line down the middle of a red helmet has traditionally been used to define a veteran sergeant over a normal sergeant.

 insaniak wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So... why do the Bolt Rifles do more damage?

Because like alot of guns in the real world, bigger is better, more power.

Yeah. It's like the difference between Guard plasma guns and Marine plas... Er... The difference between hand held stormbolters and pintle stormbol... Uh... The difference between terminator assault cannons and dreadnought assaul.... No... Uh...


Yeah. It might just be because we're supposed to buy these guys instead of regular Marines.

Guardsman and marines have the same plasma guns etc.
Think of it more like a heavy Bolter compared to a normal bolter; they are different guns.

In regards to the fly special rule and leaving combat while still shooting, this makes thematic sense to me.

You close the distance on a flying ranged support unit and don't kill them. They then lunch h themselves into the air while raining hell upon you. Picturing scourges, assault marines, vespids, storm boyz, and seraphim all pulling that move off.

While it is annoying,, they are at least in the open for a turn instead of being able to jump-shoot-jump without a chance for retaliation. Now they have to close (most suit weapons aren't very long range) and now you can charge them for getting there.

As a side note, I wonder if the "can't shoot a character unless they are the closest model" rule applies to overwatch as well.

Suddenly a character rushing out in front at the last minute while disallowing overwatch (since​they didn't see him coming) like do wonders for letting vital assault elements get into combat unmolested.

Should be interesting.