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Daedalus81 wrote:

 Therion wrote:

Personally I think the points are a bit off. Some units are wildly expensive. A Wraithknight comes in at 502 points for 24 T8 3+ wounds. Yet for 500 points you can take 5 Razorbacks with twin assault cannons, for 50 T7 3+ wounds. Sure, the Wraithknight shoots 4 times with his mega lascannons, but the Razorbacks shoot 60 times with S6 guns and are twice as durable AND can move other guys around. I'm just not seeing what the 500+ price point is supposed to be buying. No special close combat rules, no feel no pain or other fancy rules. Just a 500+ point guy with 4 lascannons and a couple 'power fist' attacks.

The problem is you're viewing it from just one angle.

The wraithknight can fight well in combat. A single round of shooting can easily take out a razorback. A full round from all those razorbacks will not kill a wraithknight.

The Wraithknight has 4 attacks. It can fight a monster or a vehicle, yes, but against infantry units, of which you will see plenty of, he won't do anything. Before he would've stomped around, now he has his 4 attacks.

The Razorbacks were armed with the twin assault cannons to demonstrate the discrepancy in survivability. 50 wounds vs 24. The Wraithknight might not die immediately, but it does degrade all the time when it takes damage. Likewise, there's no difference between T7 and T8 when you're getting shot by S9 guns (the most common anti-tank weapon). If you want to do a pepsi challenge, the twin lascannon setup only costs 15 points more per Razorback. Now, have 5 Razorbacks with twin lascannons shoot at the Wraithknight. It'll take 16 wounds in one volley, and it can't even theoretically kill more than two Razorbacks per turn of the 5, and in the actual game it won't even kill one (it does just 6.22 wounds per turn). In short, it sucks.

There's no angle here. There's just numbers. I'll gladly be proven wrong, but on a surface glance, yes, a lot of units offer a lot more bang for the buck than others, and some mega-models are wildly overpriced.

Even within the Eldar faction, a Wave Serpent with twin bright lance and twin shuriken catapult runs you only just a bit over 150 points. For 500 points if you'd get 3,33 of them you'd have 43 wounds (protected by serpent shield) but the firepower would be better, as would the survivability and utility.

str00dles1 wrote:

Charax wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:

Charax wrote:
This is what I feared when they said the ITC were involved in 8e playtesting.

Wholesale gutting of options (The boxed set Nurgle models don't have ANY options for ANYTHING)

Mark of Chaos does nothing whatsoever (so no more T5 Relentless Havoks, we just get T4 havoks that are identical to every other Chaos Havok)

No Relics

No flavour

Before you make ill-informed conclusions, you should look at what is going on with Age of Sigmar.

They released the books so everyone had points and options, then they released Battletomes AKA codexes with more fluff, and many more ways to customize your army.

This will happen with 8th. First will be Primaris Book then Nurgle, then whatever else they feel like doing. (Id guess Khorne as they love Khorne) Each will add relics, options, special rules, special psychic powers, etc.

I'm making conclusions based on the information in front of us, the actual black and white rules that are being published, not what might happen based on what happened in a different game system

Even IF you were correct, that's even worse, because they'll have to cycle through all the different faction codices before everyone is up to par

This isn't some guess. They said they were doing this. They also stated that each year points are being adjusted based on feedback. For most of the core, its the same game system. So don't believe me if you don't want to, but its a fact.

So should we wait to buy army books then?

 Raikoh wrote:
Ok, am I missing something???

Tau plasma guns vs imperial plasma guns.
Neither get hot.
Tau is S6... imperium is S7. Imperium has the added flexibility of being able to overcharge it.
....Imperium plasma costs less.

Is it just me or did the Tau just get shafted?

I wouldn't worry about it. The Plasma Pistol (and Combi-Plasma) might be the two most efficient character killers in the game, capable of annihilating an unwounded character with a single roll of a 1.

Jacob29 wrote:
It makes very little sense especially when Dire Avengers are only Power 3 similar to Guardians and yet they cost more than double the points.

Because as every Dragonball Z fan knows: Power levels are bull gak!

 lord_blackfang wrote:
So, these ITC fellas... I am guessing they all play gunlines on boards with zero terrain besides the bunkers they bring? Because that is clearly the only functional playstyle these rules support.

Feels the same. Cadre Fireblade lost its need to stay put to give 1 extra shot, but now Ethereal's Storm of Fire only benefits units that didn't move!

I DON'T WANT TO STAY IMMOBILE, DAMMIT! I'm not AM!

I can't seem to find the rules for the Jet Pack Keyword, can anybody paste them or point me in the right direction?

Also: can the Riptide Nova Reactor wound be allocated to a Drone by using saviour protocolls? The wording is unclear.

Anon052 wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:

Before you make ill-informed conclusions, you should look at what is going on with Age of Sigmar.

They released the books so everyone had points and options, then they released Battletomes AKA codexes with more fluff, and many more ways to customize your army.

This will happen with 8th. First will be Primaris Book then Nurgle, then whatever else they feel like doing. (Id guess Khorne as they love Khorne) Each will add relics, options, special rules, special psychic powers, etc.

Problem with that is it will take years until all books are released, so a few armies will be lackluster as hell whereas armies with books will have lot of options. And I'm not even sure all armies will get books. Could be that some armies like Dark Eldar will be splitted and only get small subfaction books increasing even more the the time it will take to release all codices.

Right, im not saying its a good system, but it is what it is. Welcome to Age of the Emprah!

New Skydwarfs just got a book, so they are really really good. When Sylvaneth got the first battletome, they were super good also

I look at it this way. I will have rules in front of me in the next few weeks.

My Current Armies:
Grey Knights with Marine allies


Eldar


Chaos (Nurgle)


So, in conclusion, I would say I am in a good position with two of the three armies I own.

ListenToMeWarriors wrote:
I think the indexes are a useful stopgap for further play testing and player feedback, sadly the drawback is that those armies that get new codex's last will be quite bland and eventually fall way behind in terms of effectiveness. Given the amount of armies and factions we are probably looking at a good few years before everyone gets the full codex treatment.

Looks like I'll be lookin for scans of indexes and rulebooks then until GW decides to get serious...
I mean who should pay who to play test and troubleshoot what?

 jeff white wrote:
OK so how does the deff rolla work with no strength listed for the battlewagon?

There is a strength listed. Look in the damage table.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Roll with me here, guys.

Burning Chariot says you can take 3 blue horrors as wargear. Now, taking wounds where I see them, could I apply the wounds to the blue horrors first? Could I then, following the rules of split, turn them into brimstone horrors that join the unit?

I don't see "three blue horrors" listed as wargear anywhere, which is why I'm curious and following this line of thinking.

That makes sense to me. There's no indication that the blue horrors don't behave the way they do in their own data sheet.

str00dles1 wrote:

Anon052 wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:

Before you make ill-informed conclusions, you should look at what is going on with Age of Sigmar.

They released the books so everyone had points and options, then they released Battletomes AKA codexes with more fluff, and many more ways to customize your army.

This will happen with 8th. First will be Primaris Book then Nurgle, then whatever else they feel like doing. (Id guess Khorne as they love Khorne) Each will add relics, options, special rules, special psychic powers, etc.

Problem with that is it will take years until all books are released, so a few armies will be lackluster as hell whereas armies with books will have lot of options. And I'm not even sure all armies will get books. Could be that some armies like Dark Eldar will be splitted and only get small subfaction books increasing even more the the time it will take to release all codices.

Right, im not saying its a good system, but it is what it is. Welcome to Age of the Emprah!

New Skydwarfs just got a book, so they are really really good. When Sylvaneth got the first battletome, they were super good also

It's also completely unavoidable if you want to do a hard reset and invalidate all the codexes at once. They just aren't going to release codexes for everyone all at once

 lord_blackfang wrote:
So, these ITC fellas... I am guessing they all play gunlines on boards with zero terrain besides the bunkers they bring? Because that is clearly the only functional playstyle these rules support.

Is this a joke or something? Combat looks substantially better than most shooting now. Tyranids can get multiple units into combat before the enemy can fire a single shot. Even Necrons can.

If you think 8th is going to be the edition of shooting, rather than the edition of vehicle rushing into assault, you're in for a very serious shock, I can tell you that for free. These vehicle rules (super tough and shooty, useless in combat and get locked in) very heavily favour assault. I suggest having a small game with you models, maybe 500 a side, just to see what I mean.

[MOD EDIT - RULE #2 - Alpharius]

Hate to be that guy but it's looking like Imperial armies > everything else, at least in rules balances.

Captains are better than characters. Weapons are better than other equivalents. More weapon choices. Vehicles are better. I fail to see how any Imperial army is not superior.

Jacob29 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Just glanced at the full Eldar release. Some nice fixes, and some stuff that I can see being quite abused/over-powered and may have been overlooked.

Also, quite a few grammatical errors which is sad to see. Proof-reading isn't terribly difficult.

What do you personally think will be abused?

Not a lot of Eldar talk on here.

Personally Storm Guardians are looking pretty damn value. Wave Serps still look great.

Just at a glance I see some oddities. The Wraithknight for example rolls 3 dice for an attack with his feet...meaning you'll roll 12 attacks with feet vs. 4 with fists. While only slightly worse, this will become the tap-dancing Wraithknight effect. Why would you ever use the fists, etc? The Wraithknight becomes crazy deadly at effectively stomping people. Odd.

I'm sad to see the wind riders still all carry scatter lasers, but happy that they're back to fast attack (unless a force org. chart exists - and it's entirely possible it will) which allows only fast attack (for ravenwing, etc.). So, I suspect these will still be a bit broken/silly.

For mortal wounds being so "rare" the Eldar can dish out a lot of them, with odd units too. Mandiblasters inflicting an extra mortal wound? Karandras inflicting up to four on a 5+ roll. Sadly I think you'll see inflitrated Karandras/Striking Scorpions suddenly assassinating Imperial Knights etc. which is rather silly to envision (a unit of 10 scorpions w/ Karandras rolling dice attempting 14 mortal wounds...?). I could be reading this all wrong, but there are some odd situations.

Maugan-Ra becomes a power house w/ Dark Reapers (which is nice, but almost too deadly).

The Avatar...at a glance, sucks ass for his power level --- and has two oddly worded special rules which provide the same thing? (he has two things listing a 5+ invuln. save, though one blocks mortal wounds). The Avatar looks like he'll be a chump to massed basic shooting instead of heavy weapons.

Snipers - as mentioned in other armies are potentially stupid powerful, and have confusing wording (they add a mortal wound to "other results"?)...Neat for a pathfinder army, but I think all snipers may become way too prevalent in the game.

Things I like:
+Warwalkers got a rather huge boost, back to where they should be vs. simple Armour 10 fodder.
+Wraithcannons have a purpose vs. D-scythes (which I still think are overpowered) ---- I can see Wraithguard hunting down large fellas quite frequently
+Shining Spears got a boost enough to give them a purpose (much stronger damage/AP than the wind riders)
+Wraithlords are solid, if toned down - but you can take four per Wraithknight
+Wraithknights are more expensive by far
+While Eldar vehicles are quite decent their exploding rule could be quite dangerous (and I admittedly like the idea of suicide-charging a tough bad guy and hoping to blow up forcing mortal wounds on it to finish it off...)
+Speed is through the roof - almost too much in some cases. A lot of special rules for adding or maxing out movement...coupled with Battle Focus or whatever the hell its called, this is tremendous.

 Raikoh wrote:
Ok, am I missing something???

Tau plasma guns vs imperial plasma guns.
Neither get hot.
Tau is S6... imperium is S7. Imperium has the added flexibility of being able to overcharge it.
....Imperium plasma costs less.

Is it just me or did the Tau just get shafted?

Doesn't the Tau Plasma Rifle costs 11 versus the Space Marine's Plasma Gun's 13? or am I missing something?

 Vector Strike wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
So, these ITC fellas... I am guessing they all play gunlines on boards with zero terrain besides the bunkers they bring? Because that is clearly the only functional playstyle these rules support.

Feels the same. Cadre Fireblade lost its need to stay put to give 1 extra shot, but now Ethereal's Storm of Fire only benefits units that didn't move!

I DON'T WANT TO STAY IMMOBILE, DAMMIT! I'm not AM!

Storm of Fire should work with the Mont'Ka Commander ability though, right? It seems like the T'au offensive will be all about that one turn where everything comes together.

Scorpions mortal wounds only work on infantry don't they? They aren't going to do much to a knight

 Therion wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Therion wrote:

Personally I think the points are a bit off. Some units are wildly expensive. A Wraithknight comes in at 502 points for 24 T8 3+ wounds. Yet for 500 points you can take 5 Razorbacks with twin assault cannons, for 50 T7 3+ wounds. Sure, the Wraithknight shoots 4 times with his mega lascannons, but the Razorbacks shoot 60 times with S6 guns and are twice as durable AND can move other guys around. I'm just not seeing what the 500+ price point is supposed to be buying. No special close combat rules, no feel no pain or other fancy rules. Just a 500+ point guy with 4 lascannons and a couple 'power fist' attacks.

The problem is you're viewing it from just one angle.

The wraithknight can fight well in combat. A single round of shooting can easily take out a razorback. A full round from all those razorbacks will not kill a wraithknight.

The Wraithknight has 4 attacks. It can fight a monster or a vehicle, yes, but against infantry units, of which you will see plenty of, he won't do anything. Before he would've stomped around, now he has his 4 attacks.

The Razorbacks were armed with the twin assault cannons to demonstrate the discrepancy in survivability. 50 wounds vs 24. The Wraithknight might not die immediately, but it does degrade all the time when it takes damage. Likewise, there's no difference between T7 and T8 when you're getting shot by S9 guns (the most common anti-tank weapon). If you want to do a pepsi challenge, the twin lascannon setup only costs 15 points more per Razorback. Now, have 5 Razorbacks with twin lascannons shoot at the Wraithknight. It'll take 16 wounds in one volley, and it can't even theoretically kill more than two Razorbacks per turn of the 5, and in the actual game it won't even kill one (it does just 6.22 wounds per turn). In short, it sucks.

There's no angle here. There's just numbers. I'll gladly be proven wrong, but on a surface glance, yes, a lot of units offer a lot more bang for the buck than others, and some mega-models are wildly overpriced.

Even within the Eldar faction, a Wave Serpent with twin bright lance and twin shuriken catapult runs you only just a bit over 150 points. For 500 points if you'd get 3,33 of them you'd have 43 wounds (protected by serpent shield) but the firepower would be better, as would the survivability and utility.

The Wraithknight can tap-dance and get 12 attacks...see my post above.

Ok so I took a look at the reservs in the BRB.
And on narrative play you roll for them as we do now.
But in matched play no mention of a roll.
So do we just pick a turn we want it to arrive?

Im confused. =/

 Therion wrote:


The Wraithknight has 4 attacks. It can fight a monster or a vehicle, yes, but against infantry units, of which you will see plenty of, he won't do anything. Before he would've stomped around, now he has his 4 attacks.

Check again. The wraithknight can take 12 S8 -2 D3 attacks versus infantry.

Vorian wrote:
Scorpions mortal wounds only work on infantry don't they? They aren't going to do much to a knight

Phew, that's much better. Glad I missed that part.

So the text of the Woods terrain in the Advanced section of the Rulebook reads as follows:

INFANTRY units that are entirely on the base of a wood receive the benefit of cover. If your wood is not on a base, discuss with your opponent what the boundary of the wood is before the battle begins.

OTHER UNITS only receive the benefit of cover if at least 50% of every model is actually obscured from the point of view of the shooting unit.

Does that mean that if I have a unit on one side of a wood that is shooting at your INFANTRY unit completely on the opposite side of the wood, there is no penalty (as long as I can see models to shoot them)?

Lorex wrote:
Ok so I took a look at the reservs in the BRB.
And on narrative play you roll for them as we do now.
But in matched play no mention of a roll.
So do we just pick a turn we want it to arrive?

Im confused. =/

I understood that you choose when they arrive.

Vorian wrote:
Scorpions mortal wounds only work on infantry don't they? They aren't going to do much to a knight

And it's on a 6 only. This game is dead on arrival! /s

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Therion wrote:


The Wraithknight has 4 attacks. It can fight a monster or a vehicle, yes, but against infantry units, of which you will see plenty of, he won't do anything. Before he would've stomped around, now he has his 4 attacks.

Check again. The wraithknight can take 12 S8 -2 D3 attacks versus infantry.

Yeah my mistake. Yet, it's still nothing when you factor the 502 point price tag. 41 points per attack? Yeah...

The Wraithknight could be overpriced as much as 100 points.

Magnus at 415 points destroys it on turn one, on his own with zero help.

ListenToMeWarriors wrote:
I think the indexes are a useful stopgap for further play testing and player feedback, sadly the drawback is that those armies that get new codex's last will be quite bland and eventually fall way behind in terms of effectiveness. Given the amount of armies and factions we are probably looking at a good few years before everyone gets the full codex treatment.

I agree with you, but do you mean those who get them ( Codex's) first? Also, remember that points can be updated quicker for blance now, so there is that at least.

Brian888 wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Roll with me here, guys.

Burning Chariot says you can take 3 blue horrors as wargear. Now, taking wounds where I see them, could I apply the wounds to the blue horrors first? Could I then, following the rules of split, turn them into brimstone horrors that join the unit?

I don't see "three blue horrors" listed as wargear anywhere, which is why I'm curious and following this line of thinking.

That makes sense to me. There's no indication that the blue horrors don't behave the way they do in their own data sheet.

Seems good. Adds 6 wounds to the model for only 21 pts.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Therion wrote:


The Wraithknight has 4 attacks. It can fight a monster or a vehicle, yes, but against infantry units, of which you will see plenty of, he won't do anything. Before he would've stomped around, now he has his 4 attacks.

Check again. The wraithknight can take 12 S8 -2 D3 attacks versus infantry.

I will now build a tap dancing Wraithkinight punting a Marine.

 Elbows wrote:

Vorian wrote:
Scorpions mortal wounds only work on infantry don't they? They aren't going to do much to a knight

Phew, that's much better. Glad I missed that part.

The only thing so far in all the c complaints that has actually seemed odd is the Avenger. I'm convinced that's an error and pretty much everything else should at least wait until a healthy amount of games before the Meta is declared