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 spiralingcadaver wrote:
So... sorry, hard to keep up.

I can't find any rules describing what the <army name> gets you. I saw CSM had marked armies basically; there were a few interactions where you got army buffs if you pick matching units with the armies for some mini-restrictions (but all chapters will still be marines; all legions will still be CSM, etc. so the faction doesn't matter for most selection), but... that's it?

I thought that equivalent rules were promised... did I miss these? Are they coming later? Was it just a pile of BS where flavor was replaced with almost-inconsequential synergies?

Right now <whatever> means not to much. Across the board its usually a reroll. Like Robute has any <Ultramarines> within 6 get to reroll hit and wounds. So when you pick your guys, you want to give them Ultramarines.

Later on when they release the codexes you will have more involved with <keywords>. Like AdMech will get forgeworld rules im sure for Mars, and any other big ones. Marine chapters more special rules, chaos gods, etc.

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:

Kharne the Befriender wrote:I've heard mentions of codex rumors, might anyone be able to point me toward them?

A page back someone quoted from the Rulebook. In the rules itself it talks about whats in a codex. Same stuff in AoS battletomes.

Swara wrote:For those interested, I added up the pts for the starter set for the Death Guard side.
858 pts.. not bad for a starter.

Can you do numarines also?

Thanks!

NuMarines come out to about 960pts

Also, the Death Guard come out to about 940 by my calculations

I may have the loadout of the Marines mess up, what equipment do you have for them?

 BuZzZzJaY wrote:
Has anyone noticed the difference between Purestrain Genstealers 18pts for Genstealer Cult and Genestealers 10pts for Tyranids?

They have the same stats and same power level, but Purestrains cost 8pts more per model and the only difference is Cult Ambush and Unquestioning Loyalty. I admit Cult Ambush can be pretty good, but I fell like almost double the number of points is a little expensive.

Hive Fleet Genestealers cost 12, they have to pay for their claws.

 BuZzZzJaY wrote:
Has anyone noticed the difference between Purestrain Genstealers 18pts for Genstealer Cult and Genestealers 10pts for Tyranids?

They have the same stats and same power level, but Purestrains cost 8pts more per model and the only difference is Cult Ambush and Unquestioning Loyalty. I admit Cult Ambush can be pretty good, but I fell like almost double the number of points is a little expensive.

You need to give them Rending Claws, which is 2 points for Tyranid Genestealers and 0 points for GSC Purestrains. That makes it 12 vs. 18.

(Please don't declaw your Genestelears. They need them to hunt and it can be dangerous if they escape your house and are unable to defend themselves.)

Ronin_eX wrote:
In either case, Deathwing Knights are not 3W and lost shield wall. In return they gained the standard extra terminator wound (of course) and the Mace of Absolution is basically a thunder hammer with no to-hit penalty (the flail can cause overflow damage as hinted previously).

Deathwing basically dumped all the cruft extra rules they had accumulated. They are just fearless terminators (as it should be). Just wish I knew the cost!

Ronin_eX wrote:They finally did it! They managed to price Deathwing the same as normal terminators by not adding a bunch of pointless to their profile!

And it looks like Deathwing Knights are 50 points a pop (stormshield included). They are pretty damn resilient now and hit about as hard as TH/SS terminators, but without the penalty to hit. Bring a Deathwing Ancient along and a Librarian to pop Veil of Time and they can get downright scary off a teleport assault. Or better still, pop them in an LRC because the stupid army doesn't live or die on teleport assault anymore! Rejoice!

So for once, Deathwing lack the insane markup they've been used to and have a ton of great units to buff them. Their fearlessness is nice, but due to the small sizes and huge toughness, it isn't all that different from ATSKNF in most cases. So for once, we get something that is costed appropriately and still fluffy. This is basically all I could have hoped for.

Overall, I like it a lot. Good synergy, not just "marines, but they cost more" for once. Can't wait to field my DW.

I'm not nearly as stoked as you I guess.

Yeah DW are priced the same, but they basically are the same other than fearless and still over priced for what your getting compared to basic marines and their equipment.

Yes, it looks like the DW got nerfed somehow, like they were actually competitive before? All terminators got an extra wound but to be honest, that ain't going to make them good. They were so bad before(terminators), over costed, low wounds, low toughness and that the one extra wound with all the upgraded shooting this edition combined with armor modifiers and mortal wounds isn't going to do much if anything to keep them on the table. They basically retained fearless, and got a anti psychic gimmick. other than that they are identical to all other terminators in all other regards.

Storm bolters and assault cannons both got upgraded but again I don't know if thats enough to make shooty terminators competitive...i guess we'll see. Cyclones are ridiculously expensive now unless i'm reading something wrong.

The knights on the other hand, also got nerfed pretty hard in the special abilities category but they still look pretty good, the fact that all the non sergeant guys basically do mortal wounds with overflow damage is real nice. If you can get your DS charge off they should walk over just about anything and I think is the way to go i think.

For some reason all the DW terms got some anti psychic gimmick, not sure why, thats never really been their thing but ok, i'll take it i guess.

It also look slike DW will be penalized in the command point department if we run our pure DW lists we've been able to since at least 2nd edition.

The thing that stood out to me was the Dark Talon and the nephilim, which is funny because when they first came out many years ago, they, specially the nephilim was absolute garbage. even had rules that had no use in for it.

Tyran wrote:

 BuZzZzJaY wrote:
Has anyone noticed the difference between Purestrain Genstealers 18pts for Genstealer Cult and Genestealers 10pts for Tyranids?

They have the same stats and same power level, but Purestrains cost 8pts more per model and the only difference is Cult Ambush and Unquestioning Loyalty. I admit Cult Ambush can be pretty good, but I fell like almost double the number of points is a little expensive.

Hive Fleet Genestealers cost 12, they have to pay for their claws.

Okay, that's a little better. This whole paying for all of your equipment sucks when it should just be included in the base price of the model. Thanks!

I wonder if the forge world books will add options to the Existing limited lists?

Example: The Grey Knight section sells a Venerable dreadnought with Force Glaive and Psycannon. Will that model get rules in the FW stuff and can Grey Knights take it?

 Kriswall wrote:
It's a very good thing for the factions that actually get one. For the factions that don't? It's cripplingly terrible. How long do you think it's going to take GW to put out a codex for every army? Years? Realistically speaking, will every faction get an 8th edition codex before 9th edition comes out? I'm not sure they will.

I'm holding off on buying ANYTHING related to 8th edition until I see what kind of power divide the new codexes create. With Age of Sigmar, there are a ton of sub-factions. Generally speaking, the ones that have new style Battletomes are much stronger than the ones that don't.

When you put it that way, it doesn't bode well. It's actually all over the map. Fyre Slayers are getting an across the board points reductions depsite being a battletome army. Tomb Kings the opposite even though they don't even sell them anymore.

I think it's very unlikely that GW makes a points system that actually survives contant with truly competitive list building. So I'd expect the same results as they have had with AoS and the new battle tomes. Some amazingly powerful (Tzeentch) some too weak (Fyre Slayers) and others that just sort of recombine things and narrow battle field role and special abilities that used to be allegiance wide (Stormcast). The new Overlords book doesn't prohibit spamming the same range buffing character so you get a crazy shooting death star.

My comment about the AoS Battletomes was more about the content that's in them than their power level. My Tzeentch book is probably the most beautiful and enjoyable army book I've ever read for any game. in terms of balance, it requires some... restraint. Which I get is not something a lot of 40k players have or even think they should ever need to have.

On the balance/matched play front, I think your decision to hold off probably has merit.

 Galas wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:

dude are you even reading replies to your posts you can take them they are just not marked
what you are saying is, i can't have havocs with T5 and fnp so therefore i can't have havocs... Not the same

Wrong.

Read the Death Guard rules - realise that several of the characters apply buffs to Legion key word 'Death Guard'. Same with some of the powers. It's concerning that for a stopgap measure these units disappear completely - rarely does that indicate they are coming back in with a faction book. Quite the opposite. I don't give a hoot about T5 and FNP in that respect. I instead have greater concern for things like Terminators disappearing and the very real concern we might get Scarab Occult'd - oh, not got Armament X? Too bad. Which as others have mentioned is a bit of a dick move.

But then, you opened up with 'dude' so...don't know what I expected.

So are you saying that as a Death Guard Player you want to be basically Chaos Space Marines+++, no? You gain some buffs and you lose flexibility. If you want all the flexibility of mixing Deathguard with CSM, you army has worse sinergyes.

Wheres the problem here?

My Dark Angels can't have everything Normal Space Marines have. They gain other units, other sinergies, and other rules... thats how you make Subfactions different.

Becasue two of the things that are really fluffy for Death Guard are loads of slow moving infantry and slow moving firepower. Terminators and heavy weapons. Look at the Horus Heresy rules for us.

 frozenwastes wrote:

I know this sort of thing drives some people mad, but it's right up my alley. I have this crazy notion that people should game with like minded individuals and really work on the social side of the hobby. There's a reasonable selection of terrain already defined including LOS blocking hills, so this shouldn't be too hard.

I have a crazy notion of my own - rules being put out by a global multimillion dollar company that require people to pay for them should actually be rules, not Pirate Code-style "guidelines", because not everyone can choose to game only with like minded people and "work on the social side of the hobby". I'm sure folk limited to pickup gaming in clubs & stores or people with social disorders will be thrilled that you're now able to do exactly what you were already doing while they're stuck wasting what could be gaming time trying to hash out details that could have been solved with half a page of actual rules.

I mean seriously, not defining basic terrain rules is either colossal laziness or a cynical attempt to nudge pickup players towards buying the "official" GW terrain, it's not something to be lauded.

You definitely pay for spiffy new deployment options. Maybe cult ambush really is that good. 100 points for a drop pod? Errr, OK, maybe it is worth that much to drop a unit where ever and whenever you want, but it is still the end of the drop pod army.

 frozenwastes wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
It's a very good thing for the factions that actually get one. For the factions that don't? It's cripplingly terrible. How long do you think it's going to take GW to put out a codex for every army? Years? Realistically speaking, will every faction get an 8th edition codex before 9th edition comes out? I'm not sure they will.

I'm holding off on buying ANYTHING related to 8th edition until I see what kind of power divide the new codexes create. With Age of Sigmar, there are a ton of sub-factions. Generally speaking, the ones that have new style Battletomes are much stronger than the ones that don't.

When you put it that way, it doesn't bode well. It's actually all over the map. Fyre Slayers are getting an across the board points reductions depsite being a battletome army. Tomb Kings the opposite even though they don't even sell them anymore.

I think it's very unlikely that GW makes a points system that actually survives contant with truly competitive list building. So I'd expect the same results as they have had with AoS and the new battle tomes. Some amazingly powerful (Tzeentch) some too weak (Fyre Slayers) and others that just sort of recombine things and narrow battle field role and special abilities that used to be allegiance wide (Stormcast). The new Overlords book doesn't prohibit spamming the same range buffing character so you get a crazy shooting death star.

My comment about the AoS Battletomes was more about the content that's in them than their power level. My Tzeentch book is probably the most beautiful and enjoyable army book I've ever read for any game. in terms of balance, it requires some... restraint. Which I get is not something a lot of 40k players have or even think they should ever need to have.

On the balance/matched play front, I think your decision to hold off probably has merit.

What Kriswall said about AoS isn't actually true though. Tzeentch are very powerful, and Stormcast are good, but mixed Chaos and Mixed Destruction are winning tournaments as well, and SCGT, biggest AoS tournament in the world, was won by mixed Chaos. Sylvaneth, Bonesplitterz, Kharadron, Blades of Khorne, the rest of the armies with the new style of Battletome... all good armies but not at the top of any lists really. Mixed lists are very much viable!

skarsol wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Why does Magnus the Red standing behind a building get cover, but a lone guardsman doesn't?

Who says they don't? If not in the cover they still get the 50% rule.

Only for non-infantry. Same for woods. If one guardsman of 10 steps out the back side of the woods, the entire unit loses cover from the front.

 andysonic1 wrote:
ITT: people not understanding you can have your Havocs in your army, they just can't be Death Guard units and so do not benefit from anything related to the Keyword Death Guard. Makeup a new legion called Guard Death, pay for a Lord of Guard Death legion and look now your Havocs can reroll 1's. Wow that sure was complicated to figure out how to have my cake and eat it too.

I think you are missing the point here.....

A unit of havoc a cant be death guard.
A sergant / chosen / warlord gives rerolls of 1 to all units with the death giard key word. ( not fact just example)
So adding 20 havoc so to your list will cancel out the chosen completely and a percentage of his points. He is say 100 points due to the buffs he gives. No buffs tax for nothing.

So that would be the same as you taking say gillyman who benifits ultrasmurfs and buying 50 prisim marines. But prisim marines don't get a buff from gillyman so x ammount of his points are a unwarranted tax..


Also for those saying just take them, you can get them latter.

You build 20 termies with auto cannons, new book comes out termies are gone now buy deaths termies yours are not allowed. Or cut off their arms auto cannons not allowed.


It would be like take your army and now cut off the arms of every troop and replace it with another piece on the spru ..... Because.

OgreChubbs wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
ITT: people not understanding you can have your Havocs in your army, they just can't be Death Guard units and so do not benefit from anything related to the Keyword Death Guard. Makeup a new legion called Guard Death, pay for a Lord of Guard Death legion and look now your Havocs can reroll 1's. Wow that sure was complicated to figure out how to have my cake and eat it too.

I think you are missing the point here.....

A unit of havoc a cant be death guard.
A sergant / chosen / warlord gives rerolls of 1 to all units with the death giard key word. ( not fact just example)
So adding 20 havoc so to your list will cancel out the chosen completely and a percentage of his points. He is say 100 points due to the buffs he gives. No buffs tax for nothing.

So that would be the same as you taking say gillyman who benifits ultrasmurfs and buying 50 prisim marines. But prisim marines don't get a buff from gillyman so x ammount of his points are a unwarranted tax..


Also for those saying just take them, you can get them latter.

You build 20 termies with auto cannons, new book comes out termies are gone now buy deaths termies yours are not allowed. Or cut off their arms auto cannons not allowed.


It would be like take your army and now cut off the arms of every troop and replace it with another piece on the spru ..... Because.

So the havocs cant benefit from the chosen or sergants, that doesnt stop any other key word death guard from benefiting no?
it shouldn't invalidate a 100 points.

My bad, I accidentally counted the Plaguecaster twice

Why can't you just have a character that's not a death guard so he can give the buffs to the havocs?
You only need one faction key word in common to make a legal list, it doesn't have to be all of them.

 Yodhrin wrote:
I mean seriously, not defining basic terrain rules is either colossal laziness or a cynical attempt to nudge pickup players towards buying the "official" GW terrain, it's not something to be lauded.

Umm... that paragraph comes right after a section that defines woods, ruins, craters, barricades, obstacles, statuary, fuel pipes, damaged "battlescape" and hills.

If people are dependant on pick up games at stores and clubs then they should talk to the people they play against, exchange contact information, find local social media groups and actually start doing the social side of the hobby instead of just playing them once and never talking to them again. If you can go to a store or club and reliably get games, then start actually talking to your opponents. And if someone does have some sort of issue with social interactions, that's going to require an understanding local community anyway and you only get that by all the local people actually communicating and getting to know one another.

It's really strange to me that people can be members of a club and have no opportunity to find like minded individuals.

 doktor_g wrote:
dual wield power klaws!!!!

rerolling charge distance!!!!

Mob rule not a nerf?

bbbbbbBoss Snikrott is bbbbaaaaaack!!!!

Painboy AoE!!!!

"Is this real life?"

Teleporting 30 blob!!!
+1 attack on boys that number 20+!!!!

I think I have enterd your dream some how.

Can we PLEASE TAKE THE DEATHGUARD TOPIC TO ANOTHER THREAD?!!!?!?!?

PLEASE

THANK YOU.

------------------------------

Anyone started working on spreadsheets for building army lists?

 JimOnMars wrote:

skarsol wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Why does Magnus the Red standing behind a building get cover, but a lone guardsman doesn't?

Who says they don't? If not in the cover they still get the 50% rule.

Only for non-infantry. Same for woods. If one guardsman of 10 steps out the back side of the woods, the entire unit loses cover from the front.

You're not reading it right. There are two categories of models: 1) Infantry models entirely in terrain, and 2) All other models. An infantry model that is not entirely in terrain is a member of category 2 and thus benefits from the 50% rule.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Why can't you just have a character that's not a death guard so he can give the buffs to the havocs?
You only need one faction key word in common to make a legal list, it doesn't have to be all of them.

Because that's not what he wants. Then there is the whole thing gw made people pay a arm and a leg for plague havoc so back in the day so removing them is a nut buster.

But say you want to run raven guard, you always ran raven guard. Now every list you ,are since they existed had jump troops and chain swords. You love raven guard spent a lot of money and time making them, then you recieve a quick update.

Units with raven guard key word can't take chainswords or jump packs. You can take them but your lord choice give no benifit to them.

You can still play them and in your mind they can be raven guard but will never get the fluff or key word that made them raven guard. You can grab a lord that benifits them but all units will be my version of raven guard never to get their buffs again.

It would be along the same lines as removing all faction key words except from characters in 30k. Your men can look like them but your lords and benifits can never benifit the troops elites or any other unit just the lord.

Well skimming over everything, I like most of it so far involving some specific things.
>Rough Riders just got a lot better and I no longer need Creed to outflank with them.

>I am good with all the Space Wolf Stuff...will probably start on a First Impressions Thread soon.

OgreChubbs wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
ITT: people not understanding you can have your Havocs in your army, they just can't be Death Guard units and so do not benefit from anything related to the Keyword Death Guard. Makeup a new legion called Guard Death, pay for a Lord of Guard Death legion and look now your Havocs can reroll 1's. Wow that sure was complicated to figure out how to have my cake and eat it too.

I think you are missing the point here.....

A unit of havoc a cant be death guard.
A sergant / chosen / warlord gives rerolls of 1 to all units with the death giard key word. ( not fact just example)
So adding 20 havoc so to your list will cancel out the chosen completely and a percentage of his points. He is say 100 points due to the buffs he gives. No buffs tax for nothing.

So that would be the same as you taking say gillyman who benifits ultrasmurfs and buying 50 prisim marines. But prisim marines don't get a buff from gillyman so x ammount of his points are a unwarranted tax..


Also for those saying just take them, you can get them latter.

You build 20 termies with auto cannons, new book comes out termies are gone now buy deaths termies yours are not allowed. Or cut off their arms auto cannons not allowed.


It would be like take your army and now cut off the arms of every troop and replace it with another piece on the spru ..... Because.

Except that death guard models still benefit from the buffs so unless you are taking deathguard characters in an army with no deathguard models the buffs still work. Your argument is akin to taking a character that buffs tanks, in an army that includes both tanks and infantry, he still buff the tanks. As for options on units being negated, they might be, and that would suck, but it would not be a first.

 Mymearan wrote:

What Kriswall said about AoS isn't actually true though. Tzeentch are very powerful, and Stormcast are good, but mixed Chaos and Mixed Destruction are winning tournaments as well, and SCGT, biggest AoS tournament in the world, was won by mixed Chaos. Sylvaneth, Bonesplitterz, Kharadron, Blades of Khorne, the rest of the armies with the new style of Battletome... all good armies but not at the top of any lists really. Mixed lists are very much viable!

This is a very good point. I was just thinking that the first batch of 8th edition 40k tournaments might be one by mixed Imperial armies.

There is also both a growing general positivity and growing numbers in the AoS tournament scene. People who play in large ultra competitive AoS events love it. So I guess the battletome approach is working, even if the top tier armies don't look anything at all like 8th edition fantasy battle armies.

I don't know if it is posted jet since the first info page about orks is still fragmented, but the entirel ork info is leaked in the form of clear foto's from the xenos2 book just scroll down a bit for the link
. -> http://boards.4chan.org/tg/thread/53530350/ork-leak-pile-and-speculation-warhammer-40000-8th

If there are people that would like to get rid of all these deathguard they cannot now use, please PM me. I will offer a decent second hand price and will promise to enjoy them.

Not a wind up. You say they are unusable, I will give you money to buy something that makes your hobby better

NECRON FACTION FOCUS IS UP BOIS!

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/31/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-necrons/

RP looks beastly, Monolith looks like it will be epic, Illuminator Szeras is about the same (but harder to kill) Destroyers ignoring the -1 hit modifier for moving.

Looks pretty good!

 frozenwastes wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:

What Kriswall said about AoS isn't actually true though. Tzeentch are very powerful, and Stormcast are good, but mixed Chaos and Mixed Destruction are winning tournaments as well, and SCGT, biggest AoS tournament in the world, was won by mixed Chaos. Sylvaneth, Bonesplitterz, Kharadron, Blades of Khorne, the rest of the armies with the new style of Battletome... all good armies but not at the top of any lists really. Mixed lists are very much viable!

This is a very good point. I was just thinking that the first batch of 8th edition 40k tournaments might be one by mixed Imperial armies.

There is also both a growing general positivity and growing numbers in the AoS tournament scene. People who play in large ultra competitive AoS events love it. So I guess the battletome approach is working, even if the top tier armies don't look anything at all like 8th edition fantasy battle armies.

\

So, how many non-mixed, non-new battletome armies are winning tournaments? Because "mixed" is only a thing for Imperium, and to a lesser extent, Chaos and Eldar. Xenos armies generally don't have the option. So... no codex options and no option to mix in other faction units to shore up weak points. Doesn't sound promising. I'd be surprised to see mono-faction Necrons, Tau or Orks placing at the same level as a mixed Chaos or mixed Imperium list. This is BEFORE you buff certain factions with fancy new codex benefits.

I'll wait and see, but I'm not optimistic that 8th edition will have balance that's any better than 7th or AoS.