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I don't have access to them at work but I'm curious:

What's the WS and BS of a Defiler in 8th Ed?

 Mantle wrote:
That would be 131 you have to buy all equipment a model is being armed with even if it's the basic loadout.

Seems like kind of a bass ackwards way of doing it. Just give things a base cost and work upgrades from there. Why add the extra step in?

Though I 'spose it does explain why we have things like 101 point Devilfish. Chances are they worked out how much a Devilfish was worth, then worked out how much the Burst Cannon would cost across the army, then just subtracted that from the cost of the Devilfish, giving us that really weird points value.

Oh I agree. And I totally wouldn't pull it on someone. Just pointing it out. So that it can get FAQ'd.

Seems like kind of a bass ackwards way of doing it. Just give things a base cost and work upgrades from there. Why add the extra step in?

Though I 'spose it does explain why we have things like 101 point Devilfish. Chances are they worked out how much a Devilfish was worth, then worked out how much the Burst Cannon would cost across the army, then just subtracted that from the cost of the Devilfish, giving us that really weird points value.

So if they decided the Burst Cannon was worth more or less they could just change its points. Not everything carrying it.

It means they can adjust the cost of the gun in the future without having to adjust the cost of every unit that uses it. Less chance of error and makes it clearer what's going on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't have access to them at work but I'm curious:

What's the WS and BS of a Defiler in 8th Ed?

4+ and the BS degrades.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't have access to them at work but I'm curious:

What's the WS and BS of a Defiler in 8th Ed?

 Mantle wrote:
That would be 131 you have to buy all equipment a model is being armed with even if it's the basic loadout.

Seems like kind of a bass ackwards way of doing it. Just give things a base cost and work upgrades from there. Why add the extra step in?

Though I 'spose it does explain why we have things like 101 point Devilfish. Chances are they worked out how much a Devilfish was worth, then worked out how much the Burst Cannon would cost across the army, then just subtracted that from the cost of the Devilfish, giving us that really weird points value.

Because that way you don't pay from a weapon you aren't using. For example, a Terminator with Stormbolter and Powerfist. If they are added to the price of the unit and they you change them for TH/SS you are paying more that you should.

 Galas wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't have access to them at work but I'm curious:

What's the WS and BS of a Defiler in 8th Ed?

 Mantle wrote:
That would be 131 you have to buy all equipment a model is being armed with even if it's the basic loadout.

Seems like kind of a bass ackwards way of doing it. Just give things a base cost and work upgrades from there. Why add the extra step in?

Though I 'spose it does explain why we have things like 101 point Devilfish. Chances are they worked out how much a Devilfish was worth, then worked out how much the Burst Cannon would cost across the army, then just subtracted that from the cost of the Devilfish, giving us that really weird points value.

Because that way you don't pay from a weapon you aren't using. For example, a Terminator with Stormbolter and Powerfist. If they are added to the price of the unit and they you change them for TH/SS you are paying more that you should.

Pretty sure you still have to buy the Stormbolter and Powerfist so you can upgrade to the TH/SS, so you are over paying.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Galas wrote:

Spoiler:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't have access to them at work but I'm curious:

What's the WS and BS of a Defiler in 8th Ed?

 Mantle wrote:
That would be 131 you have to buy all equipment a model is being armed with even if it's the basic loadout.

Seems like kind of a bass ackwards way of doing it. Just give things a base cost and work upgrades from there. Why add the extra step in?

Though I 'spose it does explain why we have things like 101 point Devilfish. Chances are they worked out how much a Devilfish was worth, then worked out how much the Burst Cannon would cost across the army, then just subtracted that from the cost of the Devilfish, giving us that really weird points value.

Because that way you don't pay from a weapon you aren't using. For example, a Terminator with Stormbolter and Powerfist. If they are added to the price of the unit and they you change them for TH/SS you are paying more that you should.

Pretty sure you still have to buy the Stormbolter and Powerfist so you can upgrade to the TH/SS, so you are over paying.

You only pay for the wargear you have, so if you take a Thunderhammer and Shield you don't pay for the Powerfist and Storm Bolter.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Galas wrote:

Spoiler:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't have access to them at work but I'm curious:

What's the WS and BS of a Defiler in 8th Ed?

 Mantle wrote:
That would be 131 you have to buy all equipment a model is being armed with even if it's the basic loadout.

Seems like kind of a bass ackwards way of doing it. Just give things a base cost and work upgrades from there. Why add the extra step in?

Though I 'spose it does explain why we have things like 101 point Devilfish. Chances are they worked out how much a Devilfish was worth, then worked out how much the Burst Cannon would cost across the army, then just subtracted that from the cost of the Devilfish, giving us that really weird points value.

Because that way you don't pay from a weapon you aren't using. For example, a Terminator with Stormbolter and Powerfist. If they are added to the price of the unit and they you change them for TH/SS you are paying more that you should.

Pretty sure you still have to buy the Stormbolter and Powerfist so you can upgrade to the TH/SS, so you are over paying.

You only pay for the wargear you have, so if you take a Thunderhammer and Shield you don't pay for the Powerfist and Storm Bolter.

Except the dataslates specifically say they have X Weapon which you have to buy and that you can then replace X weapon with another. At least thats what seems to be implied to me.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Galas wrote:

Spoiler:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't have access to them at work but I'm curious:

What's the WS and BS of a Defiler in 8th Ed?

 Mantle wrote:
That would be 131 you have to buy all equipment a model is being armed with even if it's the basic loadout.

Seems like kind of a bass ackwards way of doing it. Just give things a base cost and work upgrades from there. Why add the extra step in?

Though I 'spose it does explain why we have things like 101 point Devilfish. Chances are they worked out how much a Devilfish was worth, then worked out how much the Burst Cannon would cost across the army, then just subtracted that from the cost of the Devilfish, giving us that really weird points value.

Because that way you don't pay from a weapon you aren't using. For example, a Terminator with Stormbolter and Powerfist. If they are added to the price of the unit and they you change them for TH/SS you are paying more that you should.

Pretty sure you still have to buy the Stormbolter and Powerfist so you can upgrade to the TH/SS, so you are over paying.

You only pay for the wargear you have, so if you take a Thunderhammer and Shield you don't pay for the Powerfist and Storm Bolter.

Except the dataslates specifically say they have X Weapon which you have to buy and that you can then replace X weapon with another. At least thats what seems to be implied to me.

I don't think so, when doing points it's just cost of model then cost of wargear.

Technically, you buy the base wargear, then subtract what's being replaced, then add the new wargear.

I'm a little confused on how the factions work for army building currently but confirmed for chaos through a preview that we have world eaters, emperors children, deathguard confirmed! Noise marines are 16 pts per model with 2 attacks with sonic blasters being 20 total being assault 3!!! About time they let me dust off slaanesh! Also no minus to saves, but ignores cover still and str 4. I wish I had time to read through the index, but I'll be painting until release now that I have an idea how the factions will work. The main rule book was not available to peek through, but I think different factions will require multiple detachments unlike previous chaos codexes. Also, combo meltas now cost a lot more than 5 pts if I read correctly

We should ask it then for the FAQ

So Stormraven went WAY up in points unless my calculations are off. Stormraven with twin asscans, twin mmelta, 2 stormstrike missile launchers, and 2 hurricane bolters is 310. Is that right?

 theharrower wrote:
So Stormraven went WAY up in points unless my calculations are off. Stormraven with twin asscans, twin mmelta, 2 stormstrike missile launchers, and 2 hurricane bolters is 310. Is that right?

He can fire all his weapons to every model in sight in a 360º so it seems appropiate to me for all of that firepower.

 Galas wrote:

 theharrower wrote:
So Stormraven went WAY up in points unless my calculations are off. Stormraven with twin asscans, twin mmelta, 2 stormstrike missile launchers, and 2 hurricane bolters is 310. Is that right?

He can fire all his weapons to every model in sight in a 360º so it seems appropiate to me for all of that firepower.

Not disputing it's a ton of firepower. Just want to make sure my points are on point.

 theharrower wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 theharrower wrote:
So Stormraven went WAY up in points unless my calculations are off. Stormraven with twin asscans, twin mmelta, 2 stormstrike missile launchers, and 2 hurricane bolters is 310. Is that right?

He can fire all his weapons to every model in sight in a 360º so it seems appropiate to me for all of that firepower.

Not disputing it's a ton of firepower. Just want to make sure my points are on point.

Ya, points for everything went up. I think most tournaments might adjust to the rumored 2000 points match play, which might be similar to what we currently use at 1850.

 Vector Strike wrote:
Looks like any kind of Outflank is gone. Is it how you see it too, guys? Or did someone retain this ability?

edit: looks like ork warbuggies and AM rough rides have it

How do we sell models that look like they are stuck in the 90s???? Give them a very special rule that virtually no other model has.... I'm still not buying those ugly things.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

That said, I feel like we probably need to step back and try things out before sending rage mail at GW. Things might shake out being more balanced than we thought once we've got them on the table and are playing games.

How could the following work out on the tabletop:

Triple a mediocre unit's price.(Vaul's Wrath Batteries)
-2T
-1 armour save penalty

I simply don't see how such a thing can NOT be a mistake. But despite things like this being obvious mistakes, GW almost NEVER owns up to it being a mistake, and so a unit gets relegated to the annals of history by being typo'd out of existence. This reminds me of the change to orbs of despair from being S10 with one use at 25 points to being S1, one use, Instant death at the same 25 points. GW claimed it wasn't a typo.

3 Vaul's Wrath Batteries with vibro-cannons used to cost 90 points. Now they nerfed them(T7 to T5 with 4+ instead of 3+), and they want to charge 291 points for them.

And double the wounds. With no chance of ID.

They don't have double the wounds. They have the same wounds they had before: 4. Each battery had 2, and each crew had 1. All they did was add all the wounds from the unit together. They didn't give them more. They also couldn't be ID's before, since they were T7. None of this is a positive, or comes close to justifying a 90 point to 291 point increase. They were considered mediocre units before, got nerfed, and had their price more than TRIPLED.

Daedalus81 wrote:
Vibro cannons used to be 1 damage - at S7 (then 8 and 9 they would rarely ID something useful. Now they are D3.

This isn't worth a 201 point increase. If they gave us the old prices back, we'd just to a whole THREE damage every time, 1 per gun, for 90 points. There is no justification for this massive price spike. It has to be a mistake or someone using faulty logic in coming up with points values. Either one is possible.

 Torga_DW wrote:

 Galas wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
So basically what you are saying is that... Vehicles are viable now? ]

Here's funny thought: You can make viable vehicles that actually work like a vehicles rather than needing to dumb down rules.

What a novel concept! Rather than dumping down rules simply balance them appropriately.

Explain me how you make vehicles viable in a system where every other unit ignore all the special systems that vehicles have, where you can have 4-8 vehicles per side, fighting against Aircraft and Titans both mechanical and biological, without making a normal game lasting 3 hours or more.
You know why Epic was so streamlined, no? 40k is now Epic in 28mm scale.

If only things become balanced because one said that they should be balanced... what a magical world to live in.

In fairness though, epic died not long after it was streamlined into epic 40k.

No actually Epic died after it was shifted off to Specialist games and pushed away from the lime light because Kirby thought that if it wasn't 40k or Fantasy it would cannibalize sales from those two games. I played Space Marine and Adeptus Titanicus and loved them both, I played 2nd edition Epic and it was FANTASTIC!, I played 3rd and 4th and liked them. What I didn't like was not being able to play epic in the store and not being able to buy models in the store and having to mail order them.....that's what killed epic. I can't wait for the 'new epic' to come out same with Adeptus Titanicus....good times are coming people

8th has got me interested again in 40k, I play HH but this has that kinda 2nd edition vibe to it. I like it. It looks interesting. I will give it a honest shot and if I like it and I can port my IF's from HH to 40k relatively painlessly I just might.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Where does one measure range and LOS from a vehicle?

I hear arials are going to be big this edition... sigh.



But but but they raised obscurement from 25 to 50%. which now totally matters with the 0.001 percent your vehicle will need to fire literally all its weapons at any targets it wants. Yay?

But hey now we get to replay this again!

Spoiler:

God I miss that comic, I was just thinking about that with the new "Emperors Spears" chapter....is that a homage to the Emperors Pointy Sticks? ....

Saying that weapon that did one wound before is better because it does D3 now doesn't really make sense - things had far fewer wounds before. Really, weapons that do only 1 wound lost ground (though in most cases they gained the ability to wound on a 5+ what they needed a 6+ for previously).

FWIW, I cleaned up the paint by numbers primaris PDF that GW came out with and BOLS posted and made it so folks can easily color it with MSPaint using the "fill with color" button (the one that looks like a spilling paint can).

Good job Warboss, thanks for that!

 Galas wrote:
Because that way you don't pay from a weapon you aren't using. For example, a Terminator with Stormbolter and Powerfist. If they are added to the price of the unit and they you change them for TH/SS you are paying more that you should.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Pretty sure you still have to buy the Stormbolter and Powerfist so you can upgrade to the TH/SS, so you are over paying.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
You only pay for the wargear you have, so if you take a Thunderhammer and Shield you don't pay for the Powerfist and Storm Bolter.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Except the dataslates specifically say they have X Weapon which you have to buy and that you can then replace X weapon with another. At least thats what seems to be implied to me.

 Flood wrote:
Technically, you buy the base wargear, then subtract what's being replaced, then add the new wargear.

Hmm... you can't all be right, and that last quote there's gonna require a page reference, as that sounds like a needlessly complicate method of working out points that would have to be stated in the rules to be true.

So which is it? You first pay the points for the weapon, then pay for the replacement weapon, or you just pay for the replacement weapon without paying for the base weapon cost?

If it's the latter then all the weird points levels make sense. If it's the former then Huston we have a problem.

Just noticed I'll be using Foetid Bloat-Drones, Blight Drones, and Plague Drones in my army...
I already have a hard time not confusing myself so this should be fun.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Because that way you don't pay from a weapon you aren't using. For example, a Terminator with Stormbolter and Powerfist. If they are added to the price of the unit and they you change them for TH/SS you are paying more that you should.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Pretty sure you still have to buy the Stormbolter and Powerfist so you can upgrade to the TH/SS, so you are over paying.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
You only pay for the wargear you have, so if you take a Thunderhammer and Shield you don't pay for the Powerfist and Storm Bolter.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Except the dataslates specifically say they have X Weapon which you have to buy and that you can then replace X weapon with another. At least thats what seems to be implied to me.

 Flood wrote:
Technically, you buy the base wargear, then subtract what's being replaced, then add the new wargear.

Hmm... you can't all be right, and that last quote there's gonna require a page reference, as that sounds like a needlessly complicate method of working out points that would have to be stated in the rules to be true.

So which is it? You first pay the points for the weapon, then pay for the replacement weapon, or you just pay for the replacement weapon without paying for the base weapon cost?

If it's the latter then all the weird points levels make sense. If it's the former then Huston we have a problem.

You just pay the base point cost and whatever weapons you happen to take.

Base marine 15 -
Bolter - 0
chain sword - 2
plasma pistol - 15

(numbers made up)

It's the latter. You pay the points for the model and whatever wargear it is equipped with. If I have Dreadnought with two twin autocannons, I'm only paying for the Dreadnought and two twin autocannons, not the assault cannon + storm bolter + dreadnought combat weapon it is normally equipped with.

The only reason some people you quoted/elsewhere believe you pay for base wargear then upgrades is because the new style of purchasing wargear is nothing like what it used to be, it's why prices for models (except most named characters) specifically say "does not include wargear". You equip your model with whatever wargear you want to give it, then pay the points for the model and its wargear. There's no need to "add base wargear, subtract it, then add new wargear" that's just over-complication, and you definitely don't purchase both base wargear and replacement wargear i.e. you don't pay for both a power fist and a chainfist on a Terminator.

Maybe I missed it somewhere in all the updates and leaks, but are relics, artifacts, and signature systems, etc. just gone now? If so, that is a hugely unnecessary step to "clean up the game". Those things made the game more interesting, even if some of them were broken (good or bad).

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Maybe I missed it somewhere in all the updates and leaks, but are relics, artifacts, and signature systems, etc. just gone now? If so, that is a hugely unnecessary step to "clean up the game". Those things made the game more interesting, even if some of them were broken (good or bad).

They will all come back in the codex with army stratagems and all of that. Maybe they publish some book with "generic" relics, artifacts etc... to every "faction". Imperium, Chaos, Eldar, Orks. etc...

 Swara wrote:
You just pay the base point cost and whatever weapons you happen to take.

Base marine 15 -
Bolter - 0
chain sword - 2
plasma pistol - 15

(numbers made up)

But do you? As others have stated, the datasheets say you replace weapons with weapons. To replace something you have to have it first, which implies you have to buy it first.

I'm not arguing either method (or even alternate methods). I want to know what the rules say and if this is vague and needs clarification, or if we're missing something.

 Swara wrote:
Just noticed I'll be using Foetid Bloat-Drones, Blight Drones, and Plague Drones in my army...
I already have a hard time not confusing myself so this should be fun.

Just wait 'til GW release Foetid Blight-Bloat Plague Drones.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Swara wrote:
You just pay the base point cost and whatever weapons you happen to take.

Base marine 15 -
Bolter - 0
chain sword - 2
plasma pistol - 15

(numbers made up)

But do you? As others have stated, the datasheets say you replace weapons with weapons. To replace something you have to have it first, which implies you have to buy it first.

I'm not arguing either method (or even alternate methods). I want to know what the rules say and if this is vague and needs clarification, or if we're missing something.

 Swara wrote:
Just noticed I'll be using Foetid Bloat-Drones, Blight Drones, and Plague Drones in my army...
I already have a hard time not confusing myself so this should be fun.

Just wait 'til GW release Foetid Blight-Bloat Plague Drones.

I read it as you pay for the equipment you end up with, but i understand why there is confusion the other way. it would be good if GW would point up an example unit to clear it up.

Thank you, sir.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Swara wrote:
You just pay the base point cost and whatever weapons you happen to take.

Base marine 15 -
Bolter - 0
chain sword - 2
plasma pistol - 15

(numbers made up)

But do you? As others have stated, the datasheets say you replace weapons with weapons. To replace something you have to have it first, which implies you have to buy it first.

I'm not arguing either method (or even alternate methods). I want to know what the rules say and if this is vague and needs clarification, or if we're missing something.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/30/new-warhammer-40000-choosing-your-army-may30gw-homepage-post-4/
The example given in this story indicates you pay for a unit, then all its guns..

funny note, There is no reason not to take Typhus if paying Deathguard.. as He will be the same cost if not cheaper this his non-character equiv