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Luciferian wrote:

Spoiler:

 warboss wrote:
FWIW, I cleaned up the paint by numbers primaris PDF that GW came out with and BOLS posted and made it so folks can easily color it with MSPaint using the "fill with color" button (the one that looks like a spilling paint can).

Thank you, sir.

Rippy wrote:Good job Warboss, thanks for that!

Glad it helps. With how "gothic"/motheaten the original was, if you tried filling a part then it'd bleed over to the next one through a hole as well as have some compression artifacts along the edges of the black lines. The version I posted may not be as pretty but you just click once on each armor section and it should fill completely with the chosen color. Thanks for keeping the thread updated as well.

GW took out the cost of the original gear when assigning points to units. That dreadnought that used to cost 100 and costs 70 now wouldn't add the cost of its original weapons, then also the switched upgrades. That would be like the 100pt OG dread swapping weapons, but then paying full price for its upgrade instead of what was often a free swap.

*all points made up*

No worries Warboss!

You went from 2 T7 3+ wounds and 2 T3 5+ wounds to 4 T5 4+.

That is...exactly average.

The previous gun required a hit. *This one does not.*

The previous gun gave a S bonus. This gives a to wound bonus, *which is better*.

The previous gun could not move and shoot. *This one can*.

GodDamUser wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Swara wrote:
You just pay the base point cost and whatever weapons you happen to take.

Base marine 15 -
Bolter - 0
chain sword - 2
plasma pistol - 15

(numbers made up)

But do you? As others have stated, the datasheets say you replace weapons with weapons. To replace something you have to have it first, which implies you have to buy it first.

I'm not arguing either method (or even alternate methods). I want to know what the rules say and if this is vague and needs clarification, or if we're missing something.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/30/new-warhammer-40000-choosing-your-army-may30gw-homepage-post-4/
The example given in this story indicates you pay for a unit, then all its guns..

funny note, There is no reason not to take Typhus if paying Deathguard.. as He will be the same cost if not cheaper this his non-character equiv

20 pts cheaper in fact with a better weapon and awesome pistol and a psyker aaand buffs zombies...
yeah...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Swara wrote:
You just pay the base point cost and whatever weapons you happen to take.

Base marine 15 -
Bolter - 0
chain sword - 2
plasma pistol - 15

(numbers made up)

But do you? As others have stated, the datasheets say you replace weapons with weapons. To replace something you have to have it first, which implies you have to buy it first.

I'm not arguing either method (or even alternate methods). I want to know what the rules say and if this is vague and needs clarification, or if we're missing something.

I don't think its particularly vague, its just a totally new way for 40K to work, so it just feels a bit strange.

The unit's datasheet has 'base' weapons and gear presented, and options for stuff to be taken and/or replaced with other options. But remember, this is all in place to be done for free (with just general 'power levels') for narrative games. So you construct your unit using those rules in the datasheet, and then when you're all done with that you flip to the points cost page and total up what that unit costs with its final gear selections. You only play points for the weapons/options you end up taking for the unit.

I think regardless of base point costs largely coming down, the fact you have to then add in the cost of wargear for every model makes that cost climb higher. I think the 1800-2000 point armies of 7th are gonna end up between 2500-3000pts.

 Megaknob wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
Looks like any kind of Outflank is gone. Is it how you see it too, guys? Or did someone retain this ability?

edit: looks like ork warbuggies and AM rough rides have it

How do we sell models that look like they are stuck in the 90s???? Give them a very special rule that virtually no other model has.... I'm still not buying those ugly things.

Remember the rumor engine from last week was a very orkish wheel...may be a new buggy model. Also, the new deffkopta rules gives every one a free bigbomm--of which there is no model at all. Why would GW make rules for an otherwise forgettable weapon if they didn't intend on making a model for it?

Too early too speculate...but I will anyway. An ork release will come within a couple of months.

Aforementioned deffkopta also outflanks, but can be within 14" of any table eadge...virtually anywhere on the board. It will have some nasty rokkits (if they hit). If you're playing orks, cover your characters' behinds.

The rulebook covers how to determine points totals; "Simply add up the points values of all the models and weapons in your army, and make sure the total does not exceed the agreed limit for the game". Strange as this new system is, it definitely doesn't require you to pay for wargear items that get swapped out or discarded.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
The rulebook covers how to determine points totals; "Simply add up the points values of all the models and weapons in your army, and make sure the total does not exceed the agreed limit for the game". Strange as this new system is, it definitely doesn't require you to pay for wargear items that get swapped out or discarded.

Did lol..

But you know what they mean

I think 8th point cost will not be seen as strange for newcommers but it is different to what we are used to.

 yakface wrote:
The unit's datasheet has 'base' weapons and gear presented, and options for stuff to be taken and/or replaced with other options. But remember, this is all in place to be done for free (with just general 'power levels') for narrative games. So you construct your unit using those rules in the datasheet, and then when you're all done with that you flip to the points cost page and total up what that unit costs with its final gear selections. You only play points for the weapons/options you end up taking for the unit.

I'm perfectly willing to accept that this is their intent, as it makes the most sense (I mean, it's obvious!) but is that what the rules say?

We all know that GW has never been all that hot at writing what they mean, or meaning what they write, and right now I interpret "Replace" as meaning you replacing something you already have, and in order to have that thing, you have to pay for it. Can't replace a Storm Bolter with a Thunder Hammer if you don't have the Storm Bolter to begin with, and the only way to get that is to pay for it.

Again, this is obviously not the way it's meant to work, but it may be written that way, and just like with Armoured Container Warlords and vehicles shooting through themselves, it's best to get all these weird RAW quirks out into the open ASAP so they can be dealt with.

No eldar leaks? Why!?

 EmberlordofFire8 wrote:
No eldar leaks? Why!?

All of the rules got leaked

Eldar are in Xenos Index 1

 EmberlordofFire8 wrote:
No eldar leaks? Why!?

Whole index is out. Total leak

Edit: ninja'd

Thanks. Is that in the OP?

Edit: found it, but my computer can't scan it for viruses. So I can't download it...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 yakface wrote:
The unit's datasheet has 'base' weapons and gear presented, and options for stuff to be taken and/or replaced with other options. But remember, this is all in place to be done for free (with just general 'power levels') for narrative games. So you construct your unit using those rules in the datasheet, and then when you're all done with that you flip to the points cost page and total up what that unit costs with its final gear selections. You only play points for the weapons/options you end up taking for the unit.

I'm perfectly willing to accept that this is their intent, as it makes the most sense (I mean, it's obvious!) but is that what the rules say?

We all know that GW has never been all that hot at writing what they mean, or meaning what they write, and right now I interpret "Replace" as meaning you replacing something you already have, and in order to have that thing, you have to pay for it. Can't replace a Storm Bolter with a Thunder Hammer if you don't have the Storm Bolter to begin with, and the only way to get that is to pay for it.

Again, this is obviously not the way it's meant to work, but it may be written that way, and just like with Armoured Container Warlords and vehicles shooting through themselves, it's best to get all these weird RAW quirks out into the open ASAP so they can be dealt with.

Even if you do have to "buy" the default wargear first, when you replace it, you also replace its costs with those of the new gear because the data sheet doesn't tell you the cost of the upgrade.

So:
Tactical Marine (13) + Boltgun (0) becomes
Tactical Marine (13) + Boltgun (0) - Boltgun (0) + Flamer (10) not
Tactical Marine (13) + Boltgun (0) + Flamer (10)

Or you can skip that step, work out the final gear of the model, then go to the price list to figure out the final total because it's the same anyway.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Swara wrote:
You just pay the base point cost and whatever weapons you happen to take.

Base marine 15 -
Bolter - 0
chain sword - 2
plasma pistol - 15

(numbers made up)

But do you? As others have stated, the datasheets say you replace weapons with weapons. To replace something you have to have it first, which implies you have to buy it first.

I'm not arguing either method (or even alternate methods). I want to know what the rules say and if this is vague and needs clarification, or if we're missing something.

In the point values list, it says quite explicitly if you need to pay for wargear. Either "Points per Model (Does not include Wargear)" in most armies, or "Points per Model (Including Wargear)" like in the Daemon list.

I find it's fishy that Dark Angels can reroll failed hit rolls against <Fallen> units. Hint to a "new" army there?

Also, am I wrong or is the primaris inceptor squad (those guys with their ugly jump packs) 75 points *per model* ? I could get 5 scout snipers for the price of one of them. Seem pretty overcosted to me...

Mickmann wrote:
I find it's fishy that Dark Angels can reroll failed hit rolls against <Fallen> units. Hint to a "new" army there?

Also, am I wrong or is the primaris inceptor squad (those guys with their ugly jump packs) 75 points *per model* ? I could get 5 scout snipers for the price of one of them. Seem pretty overcosted to me...

Fallen are in the Chaos index, along with Cypher (Who is a <FALLEN>, <IMPERIUM> and <CHAOS> model)

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Megaknob wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
Looks like any kind of Outflank is gone. Is it how you see it too, guys? Or did someone retain this ability?

edit: looks like ork warbuggies and AM rough rides have it

How do we sell models that look like they are stuck in the 90s???? Give them a very special rule that virtually no other model has.... I'm still not buying those ugly things.

Remember the rumor engine from last week was a very orkish wheel...may be a new buggy model. Also, the new deffkopta rules gives every one a free bigbomm--of which there is no model at all. Why would GW make rules for an otherwise forgettable weapon if they didn't intend on making a model for it?

Too early too speculate...but I will anyway. An ork release will come within a couple of months.

Aforementioned deffkopta also outflanks, but can be within 14" of any table eadge...virtually anywhere on the board. It will have some nasty rokkits (if they hit). If you're playing orks, cover your characters' behinds.

I missed that one can you give me a link, it's been a long time coming speed freeks are a very popular army how ever nobody buys anything but bikes and coptas because the rest of the mobile units are 20 years old.

Also, am I wrong or is the primaris incessor squad (those guys with their ugly jump packs) 75 points *per model* ? I could get 5 scout snipers for the price of one of them. Seem pretty overcosted to me...

True, and the scouts will be better at shooting leaders, simply because they can and the Intercessors cannot. However the Intercessors put out 6 Heavy Bolter shots each and are far far more mobile. They have less wounds than 5 scouts but a better save and higher toughness. I think 75 is about right for them. Expensive, but if played well very deadly.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

Mickmann wrote:
I find it's fishy that Dark Angels can reroll failed hit rolls against <Fallen> units. Hint to a "new" army there?

Also, am I wrong or is the primaris inceptor squad (those guys with their ugly jump packs) 75 points *per model* ? I could get 5 scout snipers for the price of one of them. Seem pretty overcosted to me...

Fallen are in the Chaos index, along with Cypher (Who is a <FALLEN>, <IMPERIUM> and <CHAOS> model)

Sorry, I must have overread that. I didnt spend much time on the traitor index though to be honest.

Justyn wrote:

Also, am I wrong or is the primaris incessor squad (those guys with their ugly jump packs) 75 points *per model* ? I could get 5 scout snipers for the price of one of them. Seem pretty overcosted to me...

True, and the scouts will be better at shooting leaders, simply because they can and the Intercessors cannot. However the Intercessors put out 6 Heavy Bolter shots each and are far far more mobile. They have less wounds than 5 scouts but a better save and higher toughness. I think 75 is about right for them. Expensive, but if played well very deadly.

Guess I will have to try 'em out, but I still think I will stick to my beloved scouts in the end. Power-Armored models should be sitting in the saddle of their bikes or speeders

 lord_blackfang wrote:

Mickmann wrote:
I find it's fishy that Dark Angels can reroll failed hit rolls against <Fallen> units. Hint to a "new" army there?

Also, am I wrong or is the primaris inceptor squad (those guys with their ugly jump packs) 75 points *per model* ? I could get 5 scout snipers for the price of one of them. Seem pretty overcosted to me...

Fallen are in the Chaos index, along with Cypher (Who is a <FALLEN>, <IMPERIUM> and <CHAOS> model)

Something's been bugging me.

Is Fallen a "standee" for <Legion>, or is it another keyword altogether. Because if it isn't, the it seems like Fallen and Cypher can't ride in anything.

There's 20 odd Fallen sitting on my shelf who haven't seen play in, well, a decade, and they're really hoping it's the former. Please alleviate their fears.

 Twoshoes23 wrote:

Justyn wrote:

Looking at the Overwatch rules in the rulebook, they occur before the actual Charge movement and follow all the rules for shooting except you have to have a 6 to hit.

Does that mean that if a unit starts a Charge beyond 8", you don't get to overwatch with a Flamer?

It also currently means if you charge with a Character while you have a unit closer, they don't get to overwatch unless they have sniper rifles. Good Day Sir, I said GOOD DAY SIR!

That just seems goofy to me.

That's not right. The character rule only applies in the shooting phase.
"WITH ME, MEN! CHAAAAAAAA-WHARGARRBL"

Daedalus81 wrote:

Spoiler:

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

That said, I feel like we probably need to step back and try things out before sending rage mail at GW. Things might shake out being more balanced than we thought once we've got them on the table and are playing games.

How could the following work out on the tabletop:

Triple a mediocre unit's price.(Vaul's Wrath Batteries)
-2T
-1 armour save penalty

I simply don't see how such a thing can NOT be a mistake. But despite things like this being obvious mistakes, GW almost NEVER owns up to it being a mistake, and so a unit gets relegated to the annals of history by being typo'd out of existence. This reminds me of the change to orbs of despair from being S10 with one use at 25 points to being S1, one use, Instant death at the same 25 points. GW claimed it wasn't a typo.

3 Vaul's Wrath Batteries with vibro-cannons used to cost 90 points. Now they nerfed them(T7 to T5 with 4+ instead of 3+), and they want to charge 291 points for them.

And double the wounds. With no chance of ID.

They don't have double the wounds. They have the same wounds they had before: 4. Each battery had 2, and each crew had 1. All they did was add all the wounds from the unit together. They didn't give them more. They also couldn't be ID's before, since they were T7. None of this is a positive, or comes close to justifying a 90 point to 291 point increase. They were considered mediocre units before, got nerfed, and had their price more than TRIPLED.

Daedalus81 wrote:
Vibro cannons used to be 1 damage - at S7 (then 8 and 9 they would rarely ID something useful. Now they are D3.

This isn't worth a 201 point increase. If they gave us the old prices back, we'd just to a whole THREE damage every time, 1 per gun, for 90 points. There is no justification for this massive price spike. It has to be a mistake or someone using faulty logic in coming up with points values. Either one is possible.

You went from 2 T7 3+ wounds and 2 T3 5+ wounds to 4 T5 4+.

That is...exactly average.

The previous gun required a hit. *This one does not.*

The previous gun gave a S bonus. This gives a to wound bonus, *which is better*.

The previous gun could not move and shoot. *This one can*.

No, previously, the 40k rules stated that gun crew were T7 versus shooting attacks so long as at least 1 gun remained in the unit. So they were pretty much all T7 against shooting.

And with the other nerfs, the other changes don't really justify making the points cost go from 90 to 291. Honestly, they don't even justify a points increase at all. I'd rather have the vibro cannons do 1 damage each, require a hit, and get 3 of them for 90 points, even if they can't shoot and move than what they're proposing here.

It looks like they were looking at the points cost for 3 of them(a full unit), and accidentally made the cost per model with a shadow weaver or vibro cannon the cost of an entire unit.

Not seen mention of this in the opening post, but I have it on good authority that there will be a collectors edition of the rules available (as with previous releases) which should be coming in at £250.
No details as to contents yet, and I'd expect some sort of post on this either today or tomorrow from the community site.

 elaverick wrote:
Not seen mention of this in the opening post, but I have it on good authority that there will be a collectors edition of the rules available (as with previous releases) which should be coming in at £250.
No details as to contents yet, and I'd expect some sort of post on this either today or tomorrow from the community site.

250£?????? Is there a Thunderhawk included or does it come with gold coins as objective markers?

 elaverick wrote:
Not seen mention of this in the opening post, but I have it on good authority that there will be a collectors edition of the rules available (as with previous releases) which should be coming in at £250.
No details as to contents yet, and I'd expect some sort of post on this either today or tomorrow from the community site.

Thanks for the heads up, I will keep an eye out.

Ragnar69 wrote:

 elaverick wrote:
Not seen mention of this in the opening post, but I have it on good authority that there will be a collectors edition of the rules available (as with previous releases) which should be coming in at £250.
No details as to contents yet, and I'd expect some sort of post on this either today or tomorrow from the community site.

250£?????? Is there a Thunderhawk included or does it come with gold coins as objective markers?

The info I have is that it's core rules only and you'll still need to buy the index books too.