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Trust in Goodwin.

(That's what I keep telling myself anyways, despite those janky tiny-legged new dreads)

After starting to read dark imperium a lot of my fluff concerns were covered relatively quickly.



I think that it is super cool that having mixed chapter livery for primaris marines is perfectly reasonable. If I want a squad with a Space Wolf, an Imperial Fist, and an Dark Angel painted in that livery it would fit the fluff. That seems super cool and fun to me as a hobbyist and fluff enthusiast. They have all of the quirks of their gene seed without the history of conflict and old grudges. For those wondering about how the repulsor hovers? It does use grav technology as a poor enthusiastic Iron Warrior found out the fun way.

Wow they finally ticked the clock over to M42. I thought we were going to sit with every event simultaneously happening on the last day of 40,999 forever like some manic episode of 24.

 xttz wrote:
Wow they finally ticked the clock over to M42. I thought we were going to sit with every event simultaneously happening on the last day of 40,999 forever like some manic episode of 24.

Covered in the book as well.

Because of the bastardization of the emperors imperial calendar as well as the effects of the warp on time. It could be anywhere between M41 and M42. Covers things nicely how sometimes the dates dont line up, or everything seems to be happening at the same time.

So, someone forgot to adjust their clocks for Warp Saving Time on a galactic level?

 JohnU wrote:

skarsol wrote:

 Megaknob wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well, fooey on that. I'll just wait for someone to do a report on Youtube. There's already a few 8th ed reports up, though none that I could see on TSons.

I am still waiting for one with orks.

Frontline Gaming did one yesterday on Twitch. I think they put them on Youtube.

Don't know if it's on youtube yet, but you can get list info here.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/06/06/tuesday-night-fight-orks-vs-chaos/

That list is basically how I have my army planned for 8th I'm on painting my morkanaut now I must watch the video!

Where's my daily dose of Duncan? Hopefully working on guides for the starter contents!

I'm definitely excited to see all the multi part kits, though i'm a bit sad it looks like we won't be getting Primaris foot troops with meltas/flamers/grav guns....I could be wrong though..just going off the rumors. It would be cool if the foetid bloat drone had its own customizable kit, with cool bits...I need more cool little nurgle bits.

 Thargrim wrote:
Where's my daily dose of Duncan? Hopefully working on guides for the starter contents!

I'm definitely excited to see all the multi part kits, though i'm a bit sad it looks like we won't be getting Primaris foot troops with meltas/flamers/grav guns....I could be wrong though..just going off the rumors. It would be cool if the foetid bloat drone had its own customizable kit, with cool bits...I need more cool little nurgle bits.

Yeah, where is Duncan? I haven't seen him in my feed for a while.
I was expecting something from Dark Millenium by now.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Thargrim wrote:
Where's my daily dose of Duncan? Hopefully working on guides for the starter contents!

I'm definitely excited to see all the multi part kits, though i'm a bit sad it looks like we won't be getting Primaris foot troops with meltas/flamers/grav guns....I could be wrong though..just going off the rumors. It would be cool if the foetid bloat drone had its own customizable kit, with cool bits...I need more cool little nurgle bits.

Yeah, where is Duncan? I haven't seen him in my feed for a while.
I was expecting something from Dark Millenium by now.

I don't believe Duncan has ever done a tutorial on a model before its been released.

I'm sure they're releasing painting tutorials for not only the DG start of the Box, but the Primaris, as well as the new Primaris Dread, Vehicles, Mortarion, etc.

Same as all major releases, we're just getting a lot at once.

 Ghaz wrote:

I don't believe Duncan has ever done a tutorial on a model before its been released.

He did one on Yvraine's cat.

 Crimson wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

I don't believe Duncan has ever done a tutorial on a model before its been released.

He did one on Yvraine's cat.

So he did one on a part of a kit, without telling us what kit it belonged to. Perhaps we can get a tutorial on a Primaris marine's left foot

 Ghaz wrote:

So he did one on a part of a kit, without telling us what kit it belonged to. Perhaps we can get a tutorial on a Primaris marine's left foot

Or pick a foot on this one ..

1 Power = 20 points seems a very good approximation. I did a 100 Power Space Wolves army and then calculated the points. It came to 1964 points but I could have included a few more plasma pistols and hunter killer missiles upgrades if I would have the models.

I made three lists and see approximately the same thing.

Space Marines: 1991 points / 109 power
AdMech: 1998 points / 99 power
Eldar: 1488 points / 68 power

I think it works pretty well in that direction because people tend to take reasonable upgrades, but encourages piling on the upgrades, at which point things get pretty screwy-- I played around with the numbers and IIRC kitted out tactical marines were closer to 30 pts:1 power

And, in Oni's example, while it kinda' looks fine on paper, expanding it to what we're used to, what if the admech player showed up with another 200 points over the 2k space wolf list, would that still feel as okay?

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
I think it works pretty well in that direction because people tend to take reasonable upgrades, but encourages piling on the upgrades, at which point things get pretty screwy-- I played around with the numbers and IIRC kitted out tactical marines were closer to 30 pts:1 power

And, in Oni's example, while it kinda' looks fine on paper, expanding it to what we're used to, what if the admech player showed up with another 200 points over the 2k space wolf list, would that still feel as okay?

Meh, the type of game that you use powerlevels for doesn't really have to worry about a 10% swing one way or another and besides, it's not like bring 200 points of stuff always gives you 200 points of effectiveness.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
I think it works pretty well in that direction because people tend to take reasonable upgrades, but encourages piling on the upgrades, at which point things get pretty screwy-- I played around with the numbers and IIRC kitted out tactical marines were closer to 30 pts:1 power

And, in Oni's example, while it kinda' looks fine on paper, expanding it to what we're used to, what if the admech player showed up with another 200 points over the 2k space wolf list, would that still feel as okay?

Yeah I'm not sure why people are seemingly okay with unequal power levels yet were not okay with unequal points. At the end of the day it feels like the point system was tacked up and Jervis & Friends never wanted it. If so they could have made a more concise 1 power level = 20 points formula with upgrades also costing power level. Instead we get indexs which are incredibly frustrating to read, a summoning system that doesn't even allow for point values and power levels which seem fine in friendly games but will still cause people feeling like the point/power limit was unbalanced.

Granularity does have a benefit in miniature games.

The indexes aren't bad at all. I find them fairly intuitive. Having upgrades cost power level would have required current power level values to be multiplied by at least 10 to allow for the required granularity, which practically gets us back to a points system anyway, so I'm not sure what you mean.

As for Summoning, it costs way too much to be useful, so weather or not it allows for point values is fairly irrelevant (it's not like you don't have to pay the points).

skarsol wrote:
The indexes aren't bad at all. I find them fairly intuitive. Having upgrades cost power level would have required current power level values to be multiplied by at least 10 to allow for the required granularity, which practically gets us back to a points system anyway, so I'm not sure what you mean.

As for Summoning, it costs way too much to be useful, so weather or not it allows for point values is fairly irrelevant (it's not like you don't have to pay the points).

How in the world do you find it intuitive to have to flip to random sections in the book and then to the very back just to find point costs for units + weapons? The fact that people are creating their own indexes proves that is it NOT easy to use. They should have done Power level + point cost all in the same unit sheet (but again GW seems to not like the idea of points).

How in the world do you find it intuitive to have to flip to random sections in the book and then to the very back just to find point costs for units + weapons? The fact that people are creating their own indexes proves that is it NOT easy to use. They should have done Power level + point cost all in the same unit sheet (but again GW seems to not like the idea of points).

Its so they can print updated points lists in the future without having to print the entire book.

 Kirasu wrote:

skarsol wrote:
The indexes aren't bad at all. I find them fairly intuitive. Having upgrades cost power level would have required current power level values to be multiplied by at least 10 to allow for the required granularity, which practically gets us back to a points system anyway, so I'm not sure what you mean.

As for Summoning, it costs way too much to be useful, so weather or not it allows for point values is fairly irrelevant (it's not like you don't have to pay the points).

How in the world do you find it intuitive to have to flip to random sections in the book and then to the very back just to find point costs for units + weapons? The fact that people are creating their own indexes proves that is it NOT easy to use. They should have done Power level + point cost all in the same unit sheet (but again GW seems to not like the idea of points).

Also, when you include points on each datasheet, you can potenetially limit the amount of equipment a unit/character/etc can take due to simple lack of space. At least thats another point Ive read in support of putting points at the back. However, I'll take a quicker response to balancing via points at the back over convience of flipping any day as rebalancing is important to this game's vitality in the long run.

Within weeks there'll be web/app/program army builders galore anyway, it's not like paper and pen is the primary way to build lists anymore. At that point the advantages of having the points split far outweighs the negatives.

ERJAK wrote:
Meh, the type of game that you use powerlevels for doesn't really have to worry about a 10% swing one way or another and besides, it's not like bring 200 points of stuff always gives you 200 points of effectiveness.

1- let's go with a really, really basic hypothetical, involving your basic, uncreative spamming. Guy A happens to make a really average list, an equivalent of 20:1, so has basically a 2k points list. Guy B likes his kitted out tac squads, takes a bunch, ends up with a ratio of closer to 30:1, for a list of a bit under 3k points. That's okay?

2- is

not like bring 200 points of stuff always gives you 200 points of effectiveness

really the way you want to think of the game? Are we, before the edition's even been officially launched, assuming that the points values are simultaneously balanced enough to not be concerned and that they're completely irrelevant/we shouldn't expect to get something's game presence to be at least approximately equivalent to its cost?

People, stop comparing Power Level with Points. If you are comparing that, is clear that Power Level aren't for you, and thats totally fine.

If you can't understand why someone could use Power Level instead of points, again, is totally fine. Nobody is forcing anyone to use something they don't want.

Also, never had an issue with uneven point totals.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I'm sure they're releasing painting tutorials for not only the DG start of the Box, but the Primaris, as well as the new Primaris Dread, Vehicles, Mortarion, etc.

Same as all major releases, we're just getting a lot at once.

That said, we some times do not get a *full* painting tutorial on a new release. Out of the Gathering Storm big boxes, only four of the models - Saint Celestine, Belisarius Cawl, Inquisitor Grayfax and The Yncarne, Avatar of Ynnead - got a full painting tutorial from base coat to finished model. Yvraine, The Visarch, Roboute Guilliman, Cypher, and Grand Master Voldus only got painting tutorials that only cover certain areas of the model. I'm not sure if there were competing releases.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Meh, the type of game that you use powerlevels for doesn't really have to worry about a 10% swing one way or another and besides, it's not like bring 200 points of stuff always gives you 200 points of effectiveness.

1- let's go with a really, really basic hypothetical, involving your basic, uncreative spamming. Guy A happens to make a really average list, an equivalent of 20:1, so has basically a 2k points list. Guy B likes his kitted out tac squads, takes a bunch, ends up with a ratio of closer to 30:1, for a list of a bit under 3k points. That's okay?

2- is

not like bring 200 points of stuff always gives you 200 points of effectiveness

really the way you want to think of the game? Are we, before the edition's even been officially launched, assuming that the points values are simultaneously balanced enough to not be concerned and that they're completely irrelevant/we shouldn't expect to get something's game presence to be at least approximately equivalent to its cost?

Oh look, straw manning! And no that first example doesn't matter because in a game like that those two guys would go 'huh, I think this is too strong, for the next game I'll use X instead of Y. Because the types of games and gamers that use powerlevels care more about having a good game then winning.

As for points, points don't balance the game. They're resources to be spent. They create constraints the player must work within. Then the player does their level best to get around those constraints and build his list in such a way that his efficiency is greater than the player mean before he even hits the table. A good point system will keep the variance low enough that he doesn't just auto win but someone who spends a significant amount of time list building will always have an advantage over someone who just throws models at the table. That's just the way the game works.

Don't make points something mythical, they're just a system to be bent by skilled players, like everything else.

Please take Points Vs Power Levels discussions to a new thread, in fact I think there is already a couple of them in the general

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Meh, the type of game that you use powerlevels for doesn't really have to worry about a 10% swing one way or another and besides, it's not like bring 200 points of stuff always gives you 200 points of effectiveness.

1- let's go with a really, really basic hypothetical, involving your basic, uncreative spamming. Guy A happens to make a really average list, an equivalent of 20:1, so has basically a 2k points list. Guy B likes his kitted out tac squads, takes a bunch, ends up with a ratio of closer to 30:1, for a list of a bit under 3k points. That's okay?

If A knows that B likes to optimize like that then they should be playing matched play.

If B is a stranger to A then they should be playing matched play.