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Aren't Tau located on the opposite side of the galaxy? With sluggish space fearing technology it seems odd to have them contributing to this campaign. I could understand, if it'd be more universally oriented, could easily represent that either side needs to spend resources on pacifying their activities/expansions.

No, Tau are direct neighbors of the Ultramarines.

GoatboyBeta wrote:

 Knight wrote:
Excited for the campaign, can't wait to start it. Although with narrative being Chaos vs Forces of Imperioum I don't think xenos are going to get any decent amount of narrative time.

Tau or Necrons contributing to either sides seems odd as well. It's been ages since GW did something like this, so I'll manage to ignore it.

Yeah the narrative is going to be all about the Imperium vs Chaos. I cant see any Xenos actively allying with the Chaos forces, but the Eldar and Necrons might get a bit of time fighting against them. Orks and Nids just want a good scrap or dinner so IMO they should be the spoiler factions fighting both sides. The Tau could also be fighting both sides. They should be a natural opponent of Chaos, but how much do they know about it? The Imperium on the other hand is a clear danger to there future and long time foe.

Dark Eldar have worked with Chaos in the past - or at least have raided at the same time - they will certainly take advantage of any warfare between other factions to carry out raids for slaves and the thrill of it.

Iracundus wrote:
There would be nothing stopping an Imperial vs. Imperial game being reported as an Imperial victory no matter who won (...)

Well, reading this...

Each xenos victory can be used to reduce either the Chaos or Imperial score in your local area

... I assume that not only victories are counted. Every victory in an Imperial vs Imperial game is also an Imperial defeat. And with Imperium and Chaos as main antagonists I could see both don't getting the same advantage from beating Xenos as from beating each other.

Iracundus wrote:
I did just address why cheating matters even if it occurs in all factions. If each faction cheated in equal proportion, the more numerous faction still wins. Even if nobody cheats, the more numerous faction still wins in the absence of any campaign mechanics that allows the less numerous factions to win against a numerically superior opponent. The issue is not so much cheating but rather that there is a great lopsidedness in terms of faction numbers. It is hardly an interesting or suspenseful campaign if the outcome is never in doubt.

Numbers is why every single 40K worldwide campaign (bar one, the Eye of Terror) was an Imperial victory or at worst, a draw that was tipping towards Imperial victory. The Eye of Terror campaign mechanics were unique in that there was a way for the less numerous side to gain an advantage, and simple brute force number of reported wins wasn't the only thing determining who won in a particular warzone. The Eye of Terror campaign also somewhat addressed the issue of home vs. verified store reported wins, by having the store reported wins count for more.

The thing is that literally nothing will negate the sheer numbers of Imperial players and therefore Imperial victories. Just because I'm playing Imperial Guard doesn't automatically mean that I'm "traitor guard" every time I play a Marine player, because feth that. And let's face it, there are probably a lot of Eldar and Tau and Necron players that don't really like Chaos all that much. Slannesh anyone?

The answer is (or would be) more nuanced campaigns, where the various Xenos races, and probably even other imperial factions have their own objectives, which would serve to break it up a little more, even if they remained grouped by something as arbitrary as the Index Books. Space Marines want one thing, Imperial Agents (aka the High Lords and Ecclesiarchy) want a second thing while the Eldar have their own agenda and so forth... Maybe we can hope for something less binary in the future, but they're KISS right now, so yes, we know that the Imperium will do decently through weight of numbers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
People is gonna cheat. Nobody should take this "global campaings" as seriously as many do. Is a excuse to play games and have fun.

If people get angry because of the results of this event, even if there are people cheating, is doing it wrong.

Correctamundo!

 Dryaktylus wrote:

... I assume that not only victories are counted. Every victory in an Imperial vs Imperial game is also an Imperial defeat. And with Imperium and Chaos as main antagonists I could see both don't getting the same advantage from beating Xenos as from beating each other.

I don't think you are quite getting what I meant. In the old Eye of Terror worldwide campaign, people submitted their wins online. Only wins were requested to avoid double counting. However one form of cheating was to have Imperial vs Imperial games (which technically should have had one side designated as a traitor force before the game), and then the loser was automatically designated as the "traitor force" after the game so the game would get reported as an Imperial victory no matter who won.

 Azazelx wrote:

The thing is that literally nothing will negate the sheer numbers of Imperial players and therefore Imperial victories. Just because I'm playing Imperial Guard doesn't automatically mean that I'm "traitor guard" every time I play a Marine player, because feth that. And let's face it, there are probably a lot of Eldar and Tau and Necron players that don't really like Chaos all that much. Slannesh anyone?

The answer is (or would be) more nuanced campaigns, where the various Xenos races, and probably even other imperial factions have their own objectives, which would serve to break it up a little more, even if they remained grouped by something as arbitrary as the Index Books. Space Marines want one thing, Imperial Agents (aka the High Lords and Ecclesiarchy) want a second thing while the Eldar have their own agenda and so forth... Maybe we can hope for something less binary in the future, but they're KISS right now, so yes, we know that the Imperium will do decently through weight of numbers.

The Eye of Terror campaign had the threshold mechanics that did negate the sheer number of Imperial players. Basically a smaller number of wins placed correctly would have a far greater effect than a larger number of unfocused wins. Due to the greater disorganization of the Forces of Order during the Eye of Terror campaign, their greater number of wins was more than offset, leading to the campaign being declared officially in WD to be a minor Chaos victory. That was the only campaign where there was such a clear mechanic allowing for the smaller side to win.

Yes, I would agree one way to break things up would be to have the Imperial factions have mutually exclusive goals to split them up and make them compete against each other. If the Imperium remains a monolithic block, without any compensating campaign mechanics, there is hardly even a point for the other side to show up if the outcome is a foregone conclusion.

 Leth wrote:

Spoiler:

It has been over 100 years since the events of the gathering storm, and we see how Robute has forced the imperium to change. While not at the pace he would like he has to deal with the reality of the realm he occupies now. In addition they have next to no contact with the far side of the rift, so its still full on grimdark on that side. It will be interesting to see what further chapters bring and I really enjoy the differences in primaris marine characters purely based on the chapters they are from. Provides for some fun interactions and reminds me of what I love about playing Deathwatch fluff wise. We also learn that some of the primaris marines date from the time when guilimman still walked amongst the living and have been in intermittent stasis they are able to talk of the imperium of man when the primarchs were still amongst the living and not among-st the lost, of the glories of the past that they were alive to experience. I am super excited to keep reading.

So all the Imperial Guard characters are dead in the current setting? No more Yarrick, Straken or Jesse The Body?

Yarrick is already over 100 yrs old thanks to rejuvenation treatments iirc.
No reason why that wouldn't still be the case.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Yarrick is already over 100 yrs old thanks to rejuvenation treatments iirc.
No reason why that wouldn't still be the case.

And he's already like Clint Eastwood old. Another 100 years on top of that?

And what about Straken and Harker et al? Normal humans all have Space Marine lifespans now if they're plot relevant?

 Knight wrote:
Aren't Tau located on the opposite side of the galaxy? With sluggish space fearing technology it seems odd to have them contributing to this campaign. I could understand, if it'd be more universally oriented, could easily represent that either side needs to spend resources on pacifying their activities/expansions.

They kinda accidently sent the 4th Expansion fleet right into the warp rift so now no one knows where or when they are. Cue Tau being able to be every campaign now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Yarrick is already over 100 yrs old thanks to rejuvenation treatments iirc.
No reason why that wouldn't still be the case.

And he's already like Clint Eastwood old. Another 100 years on top of that?

And what about Straken and Harker et al? Normal humans all have Space Marine lifespans now if they're plot relevant?

Don't forget that thanks to warp travel you cold be hundreds of years old (or even technically be younger than you left) but only physically in your forties or fifties thanks to how inconsistent warp travel is and when you get places.

Just saw the Grey Knight rules and it's pretty annoying that they get a couple "eff you Daemons" abilities but the Daemons don't get anything in return. That will be a fun matchup. :(

skarsol wrote:
Just saw the Grey Knight rules and it's pretty annoying that they get a couple "eff you Daemons" abilities but the Daemons don't get anything in return. That will be a fun matchup. :(

Daemons never had reciprocal abilities with GKs? I mean, GKs literally exist to smite daemons, and Daemons don't have anything on them...

I guess I'm just used to the Slaanesh/Eldar mechanics. Rerolls​on Wounds in combat is pretty dang harsh though now that Daemon weapon skill doesn't reduce their hit chance.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Yarrick is already over 100 yrs old thanks to rejuvenation treatments iirc.
No reason why that wouldn't still be the case.

Well, there kind of is - your top-shelf Imperial Hero/self-serving Noble type can squeak past 300 years old with juvenat treatments, but by the end of that timescale they are not a pretty picture. Not old like retirement age slightly arthritic old, old-old; liquid diet old, needs help to pee old. Even in outlier cases where some unholy confluence of genetics, good fortune, and the best juvenat available combined, you're still not going to be marching around at the head of armies hefting an Ork power klaw and a storm bolter. Folks like Yarrik would be well into their 260's and 270's if another century has gone by.

Of course they'll either come up with some excuse(timey-wimey-warpy stuff, Cawl, outright retcon of how effective juvenat treatments are etc), or they might go really mad and finally come out with new Guard regiment plastics and new special characters come Codex time. TBH I hope it's the latter - if they're going to enforce an advancing storyline on us rather than an expanding setting, the least they can do is use it as an excuse to update the hideous, inadequate, or missing elements of the 40K range.

 Crazyterran wrote:

skarsol wrote:
Just saw the Grey Knight rules and it's pretty annoying that they get a couple "eff you Daemons" abilities but the Daemons don't get anything in return. That will be a fun matchup. :(

Daemons never had reciprocal abilities with GKs? I mean, GKs literally exist to smite daemons, and Daemons don't have anything on them...

Not quite true, there used to be a rule in an old GK codex that gave daemons a bonus as well... I think it was reinforcements or something? This was before the Ward codex and plastic GK though.

 Crazyterran wrote:

skarsol wrote:
Just saw the Grey Knight rules and it's pretty annoying that they get a couple "eff you Daemons" abilities but the Daemons don't get anything in return. That will be a fun matchup. :(

Daemons never had reciprocal abilities with GKs? I mean, GKs literally exist to smite daemons, and Daemons don't have anything on them...

At one point Daemons got to recycle destroyed units when fighting against Grey Knights.

The problem is really that in this case implementing the background is a huge strain on game balance. Grey Knights cannot be balanced against Daemons and at the same time be balanced against other armies if they have special rules to help against Daemons, unless Daemons get something in return against Grey Knights.

It's been a consistent problem with Grey Knights that their balance was off. At the worst of times they were good against non-daemonic psyker heavy armies, making the balance issue even worse.

They kinda accidently sent the 4th Expansion fleet right into the warp rift so now no one knows where or when they are. Cue Tau being able to be every campaign now.

I can imagine many humorous consequences that could unravel by this action.

 Geifer wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

skarsol wrote:
Just saw the Grey Knight rules and it's pretty annoying that they get a couple "eff you Daemons" abilities but the Daemons don't get anything in return. That will be a fun matchup. :(

Daemons never had reciprocal abilities with GKs? I mean, GKs literally exist to smite daemons, and Daemons don't have anything on them...

At one point Daemons got to recycle destroyed units when fighting against Grey Knights.

The problem is really that in this case implementing the background is a huge strain on game balance. Grey Knights cannot be balanced against Daemons and at the same time be balanced against other armies if they have special rules to help against Daemons, unless Daemons get something in return against Grey Knights.

It's been a consistent problem with Grey Knights that their balance was off. At the worst of times they were good against non-daemonic psyker heavy armies, making the balance issue even worse.

Yeah, this is where I'm stuck. If Daemons are balanced, and GK are balanced, and then I play against GK and they get to go super Saiyan, then it's an uphill battle.

Thats why Grey Knights don't works as their own army really.

Like Sisters of Silence. Agains't a strong psychic army they are a bane, they totally destroy them. Agains't ALL other armies... they are overpriced and worse sisters of battle.

skarsol wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

skarsol wrote:
Just saw the Grey Knight rules and it's pretty annoying that they get a couple "eff you Daemons" abilities but the Daemons don't get anything in return. That will be a fun matchup. :(

Daemons never had reciprocal abilities with GKs? I mean, GKs literally exist to smite daemons, and Daemons don't have anything on them...

At one point Daemons got to recycle destroyed units when fighting against Grey Knights.

The problem is really that in this case implementing the background is a huge strain on game balance. Grey Knights cannot be balanced against Daemons and at the same time be balanced against other armies if they have special rules to help against Daemons, unless Daemons get something in return against Grey Knights.

It's been a consistent problem with Grey Knights that their balance was off. At the worst of times they were good against non-daemonic psyker heavy armies, making the balance issue even worse.

Yeah, this is where I'm stuck. If Daemons are balanced, and GK are balanced, and then I play against GK and they get to go super Saiyan, then it's an uphill battle.

I know people in my group simply didn't bother playing Grey Knights versus Daemons games (at least when I was looking ) because of the skewed rules and when they did, it usually ended in disappointment. This certainly doesn't feel encouraging to me. I'd like 8th ed to be reasonably balanced, but I keep seeing stuff that makes me doubt we're even close.

And it's not like GW doesn't have an excuse to do anything about it. They've not been shy to give Necrons crazy reanimation rules and the Grey Knight background usually highlights how they are only called for the direst daemonic invasions. Honestly I would have liked to see daemonic reanimation protocols as long as any model with the Grey Knight keyword is on the board. Or something similar. No idea if Grey Knights are devastating enough to remove whole units, in which case a direct port of the rule wouldn't do much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
Thats why Grey Knights don't works as their own army really.

Like Sisters of Silence. Agains't a strong psychic army they are a bane, they totally destroy them. Agains't ALL other armies... they are overpriced and worse sisters of battle.

Which was true during Daemonhunter codex times, but not after the 5th ed codex dropped. It really depends what they are balanced against, because there is no middle ground. Slightly better against Daemons and slightly worse against other armies puts them at an advantage against one army and at a disadvantage against, where are we at these days? Fifteen, sixteen full armies? Who wants that?

They are not like Sisters of Silence. The 5th ed Grey Knight codex expanded them into a full faction, with all the tools to take on any army. Those tools are still there and need to be incorporated into the game and balanced as they would in any other army.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Yarrick is already over 100 yrs old thanks to rejuvenation treatments iirc.
No reason why that wouldn't still be the case.

And he's already like Clint Eastwood old. Another 100 years on top of that?

And what about Straken and Harker et al? Normal humans all have Space Marine lifespans now if they're plot relevant?

Same with all the Tau characters, actually. Farsight we know is long-lived because of his sword, which (unbeknownst to him) steals the life force of every enemy slain and adds it to his own. He could effectively be immortal right now. And Aun'va, I think they hinted at him maybe extending his life unnaturally so he could lead the Empire longer (or at least that's the assumption I made about him) but he's dead now and replaced by a hologram?

Every other Tau character should be dead, since the Tau have shorter lifespans than even an average human. It's about 40 years if I'm not mistaken, 50-60 maybe (it would be like people today making it to 80 or even 100). Shadowsun would be dead, unless she got tossed back in stasis for 100 years. Darkstrider dead. Longstrike dead.

There's the whole upsey-downy, timey-wimey warpy-stormy nonesense where areas of space are experiencing slower or faster time due to the warp storms. I guess they could use it as an excuse to keep characters around.

Or they could just ignore the fact that they rolled the clock forward. Characters are living in comic time, and never age unless it’s part of the story.

It’s not an uncommon thing for companies to do.

Many special characters from WHFB got replaced by an equivalent option that wasn't a named character. Its actually worked quite well from a gameplay perspective since it's expanded the generic character options for many armies.

Yeah, that wouldn't be hard to do with Tau, either. Darkstrider could just be replaced by an upgraded "super pathfinder" with his gear, Longstrike can be replaced with a generic tank commander as they roll out his experimental suit to everyone after putting it into production...

What I'd also like to see is GW finally do a plastic kit for the XV-22 armor that Shadowsun and O'Kais from Dawn of War use and make it a generic commander option, so you could have a regular battlesuit commander or a "stealth" option that can do different things. Of course the right time to do that would have been around when DoW: Dark Crusade was still fresh so I guess that'll never happen.

So i've been checking out a few batreps for 8th that some folks have been putting out and was wondering, does it look like the standardish points size for games now is going to go up in 8th edition to about 2,000pts? You don't seem to get much really anymore for 1,500pts it looks like overall.

I like that they don't rush and give a whole month to get to know how things are. And, after all, August is pretty much the month when everyone's starting to come back from vacations, etc.

GenRifDrake wrote:
So i've been checking out a few batreps for 8th that some folks have been putting out and was wondering, does it look like the standardish points size for games now is going to go up in 8th edition to about 2,000pts? You don't seem to get much really anymore for 1,500pts it looks like overall.

2000 already was standard in my area for a full game, with lower points values for a quicker one.

Wouldn't be surprised if the standard rises to 3000, you can't fit much of an army collection into 2000 at this point.

New DG sculpts here, not the middle one but the bare headed one on the right, to the left and behind. The one in the back appears to be carrying some kind of odd weapon, doesn't look like plasma to me.