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I was hoping for a Movement + D6" as well, sad to see this not the case. However, notice that it doesn't say that if you fail the charge you don't move. It says you MOVE 2d6"! So even on a failed charge you get closer, and that's pretty awesome.

Agreed that it's shame to see Overwatch get buffed. Was hoping it would go away to save on time. At the very least, getting rid of the "two squad charge 1 target" trick to absorb the Overwatch was something that should've been able to stay.

I very much like that you just need to be within 1". Solves a lot of positioning problems.

Ultimately, it definitely still looks like a shooting edition. Not thrilled about that, but overall these changes are still very good. Maybe next year close combat will get its love! Eternally hopeful.

They removed initiative and added movement

A quick glance on the rules shows we would benefit from initiative and movement is underused (useless in the charge).

Great job, Hack Frauds. As always.

Here is an odd question: Can you force your opponent to have to multi-charge you in order to be able to actually charge you? I will show an example:


X = Tactical Squad Member
D = Devistator Squad Member
A = Assault squad member
0 = Opponents squad


.D..D..D..D..D..
XAXAXAXAXA
.................
.................
.................
O.O.O.O.O

The Opponent cannot charge X or A without being within 1" of either A or X. And if it charges both A and X with one model it will be within an Inch of D.

It wouldn't necessarily be within 1" of D if it charged both X and A - it'll be on the other side of that line from the Devastators.

If you rolled high enough, depending on how coherency works, you could also have each model from O within an inch of a model from either X or A without also being too close to a model from the other unit. But yeah, if your example is something we're able to do with our units, it makes it harder to avoid having to multicharge.

Youn wrote:
Here is an odd question: Can you force your opponent to have to multi-charge you in order to be able to actually charge you? I will show an example:


X = Tactical Squad Member
D = Devistator Squad Member
A = Assault squad member
0 = Opponents squad


.D..D..D..D..D..
XAXAXAXAXA
.................
.................
.................
O.O.O.O.O

The Opponent cannot charge X or A without being within 1" of either A or X. And if it charges both A and X with one model it will be within an Inch of D.

this is assuming we still have 2" coherency where large bases can more easily fit between each other. If it goes down to 1" or if you are not able to get allied units to close to each than it is possible this is not a thing.

However, barring that i could see forcing it, or dependings on how melee attack weapon range works, and how far you can distribute damage into a unit it could be that all the Os could just get in range of one of the Xs and put all thier attacks into the unit that way if melee weapon range works how it does now.

A better image of that would be:



Note: you wouldn't attempt this during any previous edition because templates/blasts would destroy your units. But with templates/blasts gone. This is safe.

I was thinking about a similar thing. I don't think D will be a factor because the charging unit only needs to get within 1" of the front line. Also given that it might be possible to only assault one unit with very careful movement. But that will slow things down quite a bit if it works that way.

You only need to get within an inch of A to complete the charge. So.. you should be able to stay away from T.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah... This is shaping up to be another shooting addition, honestly. Sad panda.

What I'm thinking now. Was really hoping to start Harleys or DE for a more melee oriented army. But I'm still holding out for the full rules and faction rules til I decide or have a firm feeling on things.

From another post i had, I have mixed feelings on this update. Dislike the random charge distances, at least given such a gaping range. Dislike multiple Overwatches (shouldn't it just be one Overwatch per Overwatching model?). Do like the POTENTIAL of a 10-12" charge (even tho I'd still prefer a static distance bonus). Do like the 1" combat range.

Maybe a better "random" charge mechanic would be 2D6 and discard the lowest die roll and add 3"? I dunno, I'm not a game designer. But while I have mixed feelings on the new Charge Phase, I'm still holding overall judgment til final rules are released. I'm too out of touch w/ 6th-7th Ed that I'm not sure how these changes/non-changes really affect units and gameplay, so I'm still gonna hold out til it's all released and I get a better understanding.

Going to depend if units still need 1" between and coherency sizes. You may not be able to mix units like that

Went ahead and asked on the facebook. I have a feeling they just didn't think about the fact we won't have to worry about templates anymore. And you can assume unit cohesion is still 2"

Nothing in any other previous addition prevented a unit from passing through another unit. So, I don't see why you couldn't place models in base to base with your own units. Effectively moving them like WHFB units.

Now, that would be funny if WHFB went to 2" unit cohesion and the most defensive way to play in 40K went to BtB interlocking units.

Youn wrote:
A better image of that would be:

Spoiler:

Note: you wouldn't attempt this during any previous edition because templates/blasts would destroy your units. But with templates/blasts gone. This is safe.

You can definitely charge it, and depending on how charging is worded, you may even be able to charge just units A or just units T or units A&T without charging unit D. This is because you only need to be within 1", not base-to-base, to make attacks. If they say you have to get into base-to-base if possible, then you have to charge all three, but it's okay because either you are or are not within 1 inch of unit D. If you're not within 1", then you don't charge them and you get into base-to-base with units A&T. If they are within 1", then you do charge them and you get into base-to-base with units A&T and within 1" of unit D. If you don't need to move into base-to-base if possible, then you can put your models directly opposite unit T while still being within 1" of unit A. It was previously impossible in this situation to charge A without charging T (and theoretically impossible without also charging unit D), because you'd end up within 1" of them, but if you don't have to be in base-to-base then you can just hang out at the edge of the 1" of just the A's or just the T's.

I like that at least you get to still move the 2d6 even if you failed. I wonder if you will be able to do this even when the unit being charged is out of range to get better positioning or move the way up the board like in warmachine/hordes

sort of rubbed me wrong to say have a 9 inch charge distance roll a 7 and it's like.. we ran 7 but could not quite make that extra 2 inches so re ran back 7 inches again.

tactically you could risk a overwatch for a 2d6 movement then which is quite different from what we have now.

Wouldn't any over watching unit be reduced to the use of only pistols after the first successful charge against them? Its said you can not shoot anything other than pistols within an inch of an enemy. So unit A charges at unit X. Unit X fires over watch. Unit A successfully makes it into combat (within an inch). Unit B then charges Unit X. Unit X is not armed with any pistol weapons and is unable to shoot over watch (Unit A is within one inch).

Does that seem right?

3 things of note:
1) You aren't limited to one Overwatch. Currently, you only get one target. I wonder if the Shooting Phase will be this lax in targetting.

2) They actually called it a Phase. Currently it is a sub-phase.

3) No mention of the bonuses for Charging here or the ramifications of mutli-charging, other than being Overwatched by all parties (even more if the Tau keep their rule).

 Charistoph wrote:
3 things of note:
1) You aren't limited to one Overwatch. Currently, you only get one target. I wonder if the Shooting Phase will be this lax in targetting.

2) They actually called it a Phase. Currently it is a sub-phase.

3) No mention of the bonuses for Charging here or the ramifications of mutli-charging, other than being Overwatched by all parties (even more if the Tau keep their rule).

In regards to #2 - i noticed this as well.

I'm wondering how things will be done in regards to timing.

Like,
Step 0: Use command points, if applicable.
Step 1: Declare all chargers, and their intended targets.
Step 2: Use command points, if applicable.
Step 3: Fire overwatch.
Step 4: Roll for charge distance.
Step 5: Use command points, if applicable.
Step 6: Move units their charge distance.

I know you can only use 1 point per phase - this is why it's important the charge phase is its own phase. You'll be able to use a point here, and then use another one during the assault phase.

We don't know enough to assume this this horrible. If the game phases are - Movement, Psychic, Advancing or charging, Shooting? or some other combination?

We also don't know what special rules units will have on their data sheets. Perhaps some units will negate overwatch, or others will require successful overwatch hits to be rerolled, or extra dice for charge distances.

We don't know how or if a sweeping advance action will work or if its part of the game...

Naaris wrote:
We don't know enough to assume this this horrible. If the game phases are - Movement, Psychic, Advancing or charging, Shooting? or some other combination?

We also don't know what special rules units will have on their data sheets. Perhaps some units will negate overwatch, or others will require successful overwatch hits to be rerolled, or extra dice for charge distances.

We don't know how or if a sweeping advance action will work or if its part of the game...

Why make the whole thing more complicated just so we will accept a game mechanic that no one likes. Random run / charges is not a fun game mechanic for anyone

An important thing to note it that we do not know the Stats for so, so many units. We know that Eldar and Nids will most likely be faster than Marines. Even the infantry could have a much longer threat range than they currently have.
An Eldar for example, my move 7" + 2D6" charge + 1" away. That is 2" closer than they would be in 7th ed.
How many times has a charge missed by 2"? I have seen it happen more than enough times.

That said, Fleet may or may not be a thing anymore, so it may be a wash. And other units like Termies are actually slower, so there is that.

Also important to note is that most weapons are likely to have AP 0, so even Orks will get to make their 6 saves against Bolter Overwatch.

The main point I am trying to make here is that we don't yet have enough info to rage-quit or lament 8th as 'just another shooting edition"

-

Well, it looks like I will probably be house ruling it so run distance is 1/2 Movement and charge is the same as Movement. It removes the stupid random charge rolls, allows the various movement attributes to play their part, and makes for strategic choices instead of luck of the roll.

Of course will need to see how the whole game looks first to know if that is actually functional. But there isn't much reason why it wouldn't be.

I always find it funny how many people hate the 2d6" random charge rule when it is overall a buff over the 5ed 6" charge rule.

It's like people see the word random and just assume its non-functional (despite every other mechanic is always random on some level)

 CrownAxe wrote:
I always find it funny how many people hate the 2d6" random charge rule when it is overall a buff over the 5ed 6" charge rule.

It's like people see the word random and just assume its non-functional (despite every other mechanic is always random on some level)

but you used to be able to run and charge in 5th so as long as you were giving up shooting a charge was d6 run plus 6 so average then was 9.5" average range

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
I always find it funny how many people hate the 2d6" random charge rule when it is overall a buff over the 5ed 6" charge rule.

It's like people see the word random and just assume its non-functional (despite every other mechanic is always random on some level)

but you used to be able to run and charge in 5th so as long as you were giving up shooting a charge was d6 run plus 6 so average then was 9.5" average range

No, if you had the fleet rule you could run and charge. Most units only had the 6" charge

 CrownAxe wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
I always find it funny how many people hate the 2d6" random charge rule when it is overall a buff over the 5ed 6" charge rule.

It's like people see the word random and just assume its non-functional (despite every other mechanic is always random on some level)

but you used to be able to run and charge in 5th so as long as you were giving up shooting a charge was d6 run plus 6 so average then was 9.5" average range

No, if you had the fleet rule you could run and charge. Most units only had the 6" charge

it is possible my old brain is misremembering but I could have sworn my orks were running and charging... or was that just on the waaagghhh.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
I always find it funny how many people hate the 2d6" random charge rule when it is overall a buff over the 5ed 6" charge rule.

It's like people see the word random and just assume its non-functional (despite every other mechanic is always random on some level)

but you used to be able to run and charge in 5th so as long as you were giving up shooting a charge was d6 run plus 6 so average then was 9.5" average range

No, if you had the fleet rule you could run and charge. Most units only had the 6" charge

it is possible my old brain is misremembering but I could have sworn my orks were running and charging... or was that just on the waaagghhh.

Waaagh use to give fleet so that is what you were remembering

 CrownAxe wrote:
I always find it funny how many people hate the 2d6" random charge rule when it is overall a buff over the 5ed 6" charge rule.

It's like people see the word random and just assume its non-functional (despite every other mechanic is always random on some level)

You want it random, so people can't move exactly 12.5 inches away from your units and know they won't get charged.

It creates a risk of getting too close.

CommissarClay wrote:
To be fair if I'm reading the article right, it says you move 2D6 towards your target. So I would guess that means even if you "fail" the charge you still move that distance. If that is the case I guess that could be useful for some units instead of just sitting there, as you would then be closer for your next turn ( assuming that unit doesn't die to shooting, but from the earlier article about just moving out of combat I'm assuming it might happen regardless of you getting into melee or not).

Yup... my maulerfiends LLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOVEE this!

...and I imagine any CC oriented units as well... the worst that happens is that you still get your move.

That's a bonus over 7ed.

It's fine to have some randomness and some rolls. When you shoot you get into range, you roll to hit and you roll to wound.

When you assault you roll to get into range, roll to hit, and then roll to wound.

It's an extra bit of randomness before you get to even attempt to do anything. Having an entire unit's effectiveness canceled out entirely because you couldn't roll high enough to get into range is crap.

I think overwatch should have only been available if you were already shooting at the unit charging you, then it could represent you emptying the rest of your ammunition and you preparing for them to reach you as they close the distance.

Its the exact same way with psychic powers. You do all the same things except with the extra randomness of the psychic test. Except you don't see people go "oh psykers are so bad because they have a 1/6 chance of nothing happening"

Not only that but you gained the ability to charge 7-12" instead of effectively auto failing the charge if they are 6.1" away