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Lots of chatter about charges lately, fixed movement vs. purely random vs. some hybrid mechanic.
Some of the discussion seems to hinge on premeasuring, something that is (for myself) not native to the game.
So, again a simple (perhaps overly simple) poll - to premeasure or not to premeasure.

My personal feeling is that premeasuring with a tape or stick to the tenth of an inch is wrong.
Sure, if I send two units forward and measure for one, then the other will have some idea of distance given the experience of the first,
so should/could/would benefit.
But even here, I may be off by an eighth or a quarter inch when it finally comes to measuring for that unit, and given alternate activations, the target unit may itself have been moved by that time so... maybe no benefit at all.
Until I get down and beeline measure from base to base, I simply won't know exactly, no matter what.

Also, guessing ranges is a skill IMO, to be learned as one's tabletop acumen grows with experience.
Ah, how a much more experienced old friend used to pummel the living out of my pansy eldars with his pulsa rokkits, those were the days (to forget).
Sure, some nuts will abuse people with their nuttedness,
but this happens already in different ways no matter.
Don't hate the game, hate the nut is the rule to follow here IMHO.

So, for me, coming from a time when sportsmanship and civic virtue were real things that (at least some) people really cared about, I would choose for no precise premeasuring for a given unit/model until an action is declared.
This is intended to be captured in the first item of the poll...
No premeasuring.
Others will have other opinions, and I am interested in hearing them.

Especially, I wonder - do people choose premeasuring because of the rule itself, or because of the people that they play with/against?
My suspicion following other boards as well as discussions here is that many people prefer premeasuring because of the people that abuse the game without it, because they feel that it somehow levels the field for them when confronted with players who come with less than friendly intentions...
So, I have devised this devious poll to encourage discussion, especially given the interest in the topic around recent newHammer charge rules announcements.

The poll allows for multiple choices, so if you want to be able to premeasure anything always, simply choose the three options that represent this fact.
If you choose only one option, such as that for artillery, then this would indicate that any other form of premeasuring should be disallowed.

Please bear in mind alternate activation, or at least not I go U go oldHammer ways of doing things.
If one player measures a charge to one of the other player's units, then the second player is able to move his units a distance away or to the side, thereby adding uncertainty to whatever information the first player may have thought that he/she had gotten from the first indirect measure...

There's no real "in between". Having rule like "can't premeasure to within X distance" is pretty silly and hard to enforce. If you allow premeasuring to artirelly that can be used to effectively measure everything anyway. Just ask WM players. V1-2 had no premeasuring but you could measure casters "control range" at will. Guess what? That was used to measure effectively everything...

tneva82 wrote:
There's no real "in between". Having rule like "can't premeasure to within X distance" is pretty silly and hard to enforce. If you allow premeasuring to artirelly that can be used to effectively measure everything anyway. Just ask WM players. V1-2 had no premeasuring but you could measure casters "control range" at will. Guess what? That was used to measure effectively everything...

But, given alternate activation, and the inability to measure an exact distance, a player may be off by a centimeter, or a millimeter for that matter, and that might make all the difference in the world.

No pre-measuring doesn't really work.

tneva82 wrote:
Having rule like "can't premeasure to within X distance" is pretty silly and hard to enforce. If you allow premeasuring to artirelly that can be used to effectively measure everything anyway.

Or back in 40K when you weren't allowed to measure X unless it was time to X. One of the guys usually pulled the measure out to whatever distance he wanted to check while moving. Thus he saw possible shooting and charges for his units at the same time. ;-)

Spetulhu wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Having rule like "can't premeasure to within X distance" is pretty silly and hard to enforce. If you allow premeasuring to artirelly that can be used to effectively measure everything anyway.

Or back in 40K when you weren't allowed to measure X unless it was time to X. One of the guys usually pulled the measure out to whatever distance he wanted to check while moving. Thus he saw possible shooting and charges for his units at the same time. ;-)

Pretty much that. Or number of other ways(elbows etc). No premeasuring is ridiculously hard to enforce and in the end hurts newbies way more than veterans. I don't want to win because I know tricks to bypass no-premeasuring better than newbie. Or because his eyesight is worse.

Every table top game that require measurement that I have played in has benefited from pre-measurement from historical to fantasy, aerial combat and void combat.

It speeds up games and decision making - both players are aware of a defined distance and can plan, act and react accordingly.

Avoids arguments - see above.

People don't have to either be "skilled" at judging distance or use other methods if they are not.

Dislike pre-measuring immensely. It slows down any game and creates far more "cheese" than necessary. It has nothing to do with in-game/lore technology.

tneva82 wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Having rule like "can't premeasure to within X distance" is pretty silly and hard to enforce. If you allow premeasuring to artirelly that can be used to effectively measure everything anyway.

Or back in 40K when you weren't allowed to measure X unless it was time to X. One of the guys usually pulled the measure out to whatever distance he wanted to check while moving. Thus he saw possible shooting and charges for his units at the same time. ;-)

Pretty much that. Or number of other ways(elbows etc). No premeasuring is ridiculously hard to enforce and in the end hurts newbies way more than veterans. I don't want to win because I know tricks to bypass no-premeasuring better than newbie. Or because his eyesight is worse.

But again, unless measuring exactly, one can't be sure and what we would be disallowing is exactly that...

No option for "Pre-measuring is totally fine"? Because that's what I'd pick. Coming from 3rd edition as well, it is also not native to the game for me, but it's been far better with pre-measuring than without it.

I do miss it sometimes. I like being able to show off my guessing abilities by getting it JUST within range. I like how it speeds up the game because you don't take so long making sure exactly everyone is exactly a certain distance away. I liked how it would lead to exciting "are they or aren't they?" situations where the tension built higher.

But for all those things, it's better with pre-measuring everything. When there were lots of units on the table, measuring one thing on one part of the board would give you almost exactly what you needed elsewhere. Having artillery shoot and effectively give you an exact range at the same time was clever, but also felt very outside the spirit of things. Having smart characters make dumb mistakes because you didn't know the range was harsh. Having new players walking in with such a handicap could be devastating.

Ultimately. I think having pre-measuring leads to more tactical play, but no pre-measuring leads to more cinematic player so long as you accept the exceptions.

I don't mind pre-measuring at all.

In 40k, it's not changed a great deal of the game - and it's a welcome 'leg up' for newer players against more experienced players.

Besides, most weapons which relied on Guess Range were fairly easy to get good with. We know the dimensions of the board, and how far on the weapon was deployed - because you measured that. From there, it's pretty straight forward trig to work out how far away your opponent is likely to be.

And if you're playing on a Realm of Battle or similar modular board, the edges might as well be ranging flags for Guess Range weapons - particularly if it's come in 1'x1' chunks.

 Yarium wrote:
No option for "Pre-measuring is totally fine"? Because that's what I'd pick. Coming from 3rd edition as well, it is also not native to the game for me, but it's been far better with pre-measuring than without it.

I do miss it sometimes. I like being able to show off my guessing abilities by getting it JUST within range. I like how it speeds up the game because you don't take so long making sure exactly everyone is exactly a certain distance away. I liked how it would lead to exciting "are they or aren't they?" situations where the tension built higher.

But for all those things, it's better with pre-measuring everything. When there were lots of units on the table, measuring one thing on one part of the board would give you almost exactly what you needed elsewhere. Having artillery shoot and effectively give you an exact range at the same time was clever, but also felt very outside the spirit of things. Having smart characters make dumb mistakes because you didn't know the range was harsh. Having new players walking in with such a handicap could be devastating.

Ultimately. I think having pre-measuring leads to more tactical play, but no pre-measuring leads to more cinematic player so long as you accept the exceptions.

You just choose the three premeasure options together for that...

 jeff white wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
No option for "Pre-measuring is totally fine"? Because that's what I'd pick. Coming from 3rd edition as well, it is also not native to the game for me, but it's been far better with pre-measuring than without it.

I do miss it sometimes. I like being able to show off my guessing abilities by getting it JUST within range. I like how it speeds up the game because you don't take so long making sure exactly everyone is exactly a certain distance away. I liked how it would lead to exciting "are they or aren't they?" situations where the tension built higher.

But for all those things, it's better with pre-measuring everything. When there were lots of units on the table, measuring one thing on one part of the board would give you almost exactly what you needed elsewhere. Having artillery shoot and effectively give you an exact range at the same time was clever, but also felt very outside the spirit of things. Having smart characters make dumb mistakes because you didn't know the range was harsh. Having new players walking in with such a handicap could be devastating.

Ultimately. I think having pre-measuring leads to more tactical play, but no pre-measuring leads to more cinematic player so long as you accept the exceptions.

You just choose the three premeasure options together for that...

Hmm ok I have now done that as I feel it is always appropriate, efficient and saves time and emotional stress between players.

I have found that with the ability for anyone to measure anything at any time people do tend to take people's word - because they could check if they wanted. Now on occasion people do want to check but both sides can look and agree.

In addition and somewhat ironically I find its much easier to say "I move to within 6" or whatever and both players agree that that is the distance if it looks about right, as they can check if need be.

tneva82 wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Having rule like "can't premeasure to within X distance" is pretty silly and hard to enforce. If you allow premeasuring to artirelly that can be used to effectively measure everything anyway.

Or back in 40K when you weren't allowed to measure X unless it was time to X. One of the guys usually pulled the measure out to whatever distance he wanted to check while moving. Thus he saw possible shooting and charges for his units at the same time. ;-)

Pretty much that. Or number of other ways(elbows etc). No premeasuring is ridiculously hard to enforce and in the end hurts newbies way more than veterans. I don't want to win because I know tricks to bypass no-premeasuring better than newbie. Or because his eyesight is worse.

I knew people who modeled tables with hidden notches so that they could always know specific lengths, or modeled terrain in a way to know exactly what they needed.. Seriously the lengths people would go for this.

Yeah, I know people with no depth sight what so ever. How would a no pre-measuring system deal with that?

If you want to enforce quicker gameplay limit game or turn time and don't dawdle when you are called upon to make a decision.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Having rule like "can't premeasure to within X distance" is pretty silly and hard to enforce. If you allow premeasuring to artirelly that can be used to effectively measure everything anyway.

Or back in 40K when you weren't allowed to measure X unless it was time to X. One of the guys usually pulled the measure out to whatever distance he wanted to check while moving. Thus he saw possible shooting and charges for his units at the same time. ;-)

Pretty much that. Or number of other ways(elbows etc). No premeasuring is ridiculously hard to enforce and in the end hurts newbies way more than veterans. I don't want to win because I know tricks to bypass no-premeasuring better than newbie. Or because his eyesight is worse.

I knew people who modeled tables with hidden notches so that they could always know specific lengths, or modeled terrain in a way to know exactly what they needed.. Seriously the lengths people would go for this.

See. This was my original suspicion... People prefer premeasuring not for premeasuring but because they play with nuts.

Oh no I prefer premeasuring in general because I knew people with poorer sight have issues with it.. I've just played with the WAAC types that would do anything for an advantage as well.

I'd be terrible at this game if i couldn't pre-measure. Moving too close, moving too far. Playing similar games with none have ruined games for me. It just isn't fun and slows down the game trying to figure out what the hell to do when you cant even get in range, a whole turn wasted.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I don't mind pre-measuring at all.

In 40k, it's not changed a great deal of the game - and it's a welcome 'leg up' for newer players against more experienced players.

Besides, most weapons which relied on Guess Range were fairly easy to get good with. We know the dimensions of the board, and how far on the weapon was deployed - because you measured that. From there, it's pretty straight forward trig to work out how far away your opponent is likely to be.

And if you're playing on a Realm of Battle or similar modular board, the edges might as well be ranging flags for Guess Range weapons - particularly if it's come in 1'x1' chunks.

Yeah. Premeasuring just means newbies can get in easier.

"Okay - A standard table is 48*72. You set up 12 inches in. I set up across from you 12 inches - There are 24 inches between us. You advanced 8 inches in a march, which I saw because I paid attention while you were measuring, so that leaves 16 inches. My jump packs have move 8 and can march move twice. That's 16 inches and I'm guaranteed to hit."

That isn't skill. That's just experience talking. I don't want to win because I know how big a standard table is and can do calculus for the additional 4-6 inches I deployed laterally. My ability to win a game shouldn't be dependent upon my calculus skills, which are fine.

My friends used to marvel at my ability to drop a 2 1/2 inch template down on the head of their commander. "Yep. I just watched you measure when you put him on and know basic calculus."

Of all the things I have problems with in 40K, pre-measuring is NOT one of them.

I started back in 5th edition, where pre-measuring was not allowed. My brother (my main opponent at the time) got good at figuring out the distances between models and units exactly as others have said: paying attention to doing math in our heads. For a long while, we were playing at our closest GW store, and they use the Realm of Battle boards on their tables. Let me tell you, knowing that those squares were 24 inches to a side made pre-measuring easy, thought it wasn't allowed. I got so good at eyeballing distances, that I was able to estimate within a half an inch for a game winning charge in a game of Warmachine, all from not using pre-measure.

If you want to make some house-rules or scenarios where you can't pre-measure, or can only measure up to so far due to fog of war, etc, then go for it! But really, is pre-measuring something that a wargame needs to have removed?

It depends. In casual games, I feel that precise measuring, let alone pre-measuring is not needed and only detracts from the experience of the game. Take a distance that seems about right, and if you got to measure (because you can't judge distances well for example), don't fuss around and just round things off to a whole inch.

For competitive games, I think precise measuring and (by extension) pre-measuring definitely have a place. Although even here I am a fan of rounding on whole centimeters or even inches. Guess I just dislike people making a fuss about millimeters.

Gauging the distance using your eyes before you take an action is pre-measuring. It's just less precise than using a tape measure.

I see no problems with pre-measuring.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Every table top game that require measurement that I have played in has benefited from pre-measurement from historical to fantasy, aerial combat and void combat.

It speeds up games and decision making - both players are aware of a defined distance and can plan, act and react accordingly.

Avoids arguments - see above.

People don't have to either be "skilled" at judging distance or use other methods if they are not.

have you tried Xwing ?

Spetulhu wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Having rule like "can't premeasure to within X distance" is pretty silly and hard to enforce. If you allow premeasuring to artirelly that can be used to effectively measure everything anyway.

Or back in 40K when you weren't allowed to measure X unless it was time to X. One of the guys usually pulled the measure out to whatever distance he wanted to check while moving. Thus he saw possible shooting and charges for his units at the same time. ;-)

IIRC in warmahords you can check your casters command range so people would sit there with tape measures estimating distances from the caster in the most beardy way.


do you really want that?

premeasuring is all or nothing. and people will find ways of bearding out alternative ways of measuring. be it the 2x2 tiles, measuring known distances on play mats, using their arms to reach for something to get a distances. garbage like that.

Distance is abstract, making the objections to pre-measuring rather silly.

 Melissia wrote:
Distance is abstract, making the objections to pre-measuring rather silly.

Yeah I mean in nth dimensional topological spaces, a distance metric is an abstract concept even if it is well defined. But in the case of 2 and 3 dimensional space, it is definitely not abstract. Or am I misunderstanding you? I mean I do agree with your conclusion.

 koooaei wrote:
No pre-measuring doesn't really work.

Not only does no pre-measuring work, it's faster.

The fact that games have existed where there wasn't premeasuring is insane to me. If I wanted to play a guessing game I'd get a job as one of those 'guess your weight' guys at carnivals. At least then I'd get payed.

 amanita wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
No pre-measuring doesn't really work.

Not only does no pre-measuring work, it's faster.

Both work, pre-measuring can make games much quicker for reasons I have already mentioned.

No pre-measuring doesn't work. I can guess ranges in my sleep and many other gamers can as well. When placing terrain down by hand I invariably place several pieces that manage to perfectly dilineate the deployment zones by accident.

All it really does is punish noobs and players with eyesight issues/blindness and it doesn't really gain the rest of us anything. A carpenter isn't necessarily a good commander, I don't know why my skill at free measuring should give me an advantage.

That said, I'm a fan of imperfect, asymmetrical, and secret information. Part of the fun of war games is getting surprised, getting a unit caught out of position, and getting befuddled by the fog of war.

So I'm a fan of pre-measure for ease of play while having other mechanics to simulate the fog of war and hidden information. Command rolls to activate units, hidden strategy card hands, hell even using a ref or other third party to allow for properly hidden units (easier in hex-n-chit stuff admittedly), hell even some straight up randomness. If I wanted something where my decisions were always the sole determinant of victory then abstract board games like Go and Chess exist. I play war games to have an environment where the unexpected can and will happen. Taking pre-measuring away doesn't really simulate surprise or uncertainty because I can still see the information even if it is supposedly obfuscated (and is for people without the skill or worse, physical ability to do so). For ease and speed of play, I like pre-measuring but I am a fan of proper mechanics for obfuscating information in play, because that's what sets a war game apart from their more deterministic brethren.