Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I wonder what we will get for an HQ choice for harlequins. Just a Shadowseer? Maybe a new one "Great Harlequin"?

Yvraine/the visarch?

Harlequins were never a 'true' faction

They were basically a super relaxed Formation.

If in 8th they do become a True Faction, they will probably end up with more options.

I'd love a Great Harlequin, I feel they really missed out on that! Wouldn't hold my breath for a new release though :/

I could see them pushing the Shadowseer as a HQ, given the likes of Sylandri Veilwalker and her apparent leadership position among the Harlequins.

I would also love a Great Harlequin, though.

Or there's other detachment's that don't neccessarily have HQ as requirement...

We have 3 detachment's shown. There are 14. They can't all be more the same just bigger as there would be like "20-25 HQ, 10-30 elite, 40+ troops" type of detachment soon enough which is completely silly You can take multiple detachments anyway so you don't need to include that big detachments for really big games and this way you would have basically like 3 detachment's that would really be used(don't see normal games having need for bigger than brigade!)

So basically detachments with different slot requirements are pretty much given. I would be surprised if some of them doesn't have like 2 troops, 1 elite, 1 fast attack or something as minimum requirements.

I modeled a Great Harlequin and do wish for rules for it... Even without rules however I would not have harlequins without it. As for HQ if no rules for the great harlequin then I will just list him as whatever HQ does getbrules. I will be surprised if they don't mskevrules for him in the new edition though.

So, now we know.

Two choices: The Troupe Master, who is now a cheap but handy beat-stick HQ and lets any <MASQUE> units within 6" re-roll failed wound rolls, or the Shadowseer, who has been significantly buffed up into a more expensive psyker HQ choice, and forces enemy units to deduct 1 from all wound rolls against her and friendly <MASQUE> infantry within 6".

What do we think?

I like it, personally. I really feel like we should have expected them to turn the Troupe Master into a HQ.

 Robin5t wrote:
So, now we know.

Two choices: The Troupe Master, who is now a cheap but handy beat-stick HQ and lets any <MASQUE> units within 6" re-roll failed wound rolls, or the Shadowseer, who has been significantly buffed up into a more expensive psyker HQ choice, and forces enemy units to deduct 1 from all wound rolls against her and friendly <MASQUE> infantry within 6".

What do we think?

I like it, personally. I really feel like we should have expected them to turn the Troupe Master into a HQ.

Where do we know this from? I haven't been able to find any harlequin related links and would like to see some if you know where to find them.

The entire index has been leaked over on the news and rumours thread, it was taken down shortly after but keeps getting re-uploaded by different people.

I didn't expect it, because it's in the same box as the normal players, instead of its own blister like the shadowseer.
But I do prefer it that way.

I was expecting the shadowseer to have some time of veil of tears aura, but the -1 to wound is actually pretty boss. It's going to help a lot. The hallucinogen grenade launcher is pretty nice, and apparently also works on vehicles.

My current plan is to try shadowseer + foot players, and min-squad players + master in a starweaver.

As for the other things, I'm puzzled by some point costs:10 points for a neuro-disruptor, or 9 for a fusion that has better S, better AP, more damages… the choice seems pretty clear.
14pts kisses also seem a bit high compared to the caresses. Kisses have more damages (on average 2), but multi-wound models will most of the time have high T and good saves, so the caress will be pretty useful there too.

The change to assault weapons make it possible for sky/starweavers to move up 24" and still shoot at S6. I think it's good, especially because it gives a different usage to skyweavers with haywire cannons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Reading the CWE stuff, I noticed the witchblade still wound on 2+, like the old fleshbane.
It feels like they forgot to add that to the neuro-disruptor. Wounding on 2+ would warrant the 10pts when compared to the fusion.

Also, I forgot to mention, but to me it seems like playing Harlequins as Ynarri is still a no brainer. You don't even need to add an HQ from a different faction anymore.
SftD is better than rising crescendo imo.

 Robin5t wrote:
The entire index has been leaked over on the news and rumours thread, it was taken down shortly after but keeps getting re-uploaded by different people.

Ahh, yep. That thread is a mess with so much information, but knowing it's there to be found was good enough. thanks!

Oh, and Skyweavers have rising crescendo now!
So they can move + advance for 22", shoot their shuriken cannons at BS4+, then charge. So pretty good chances of getting T1 charges.

With the new rules, it seems that a solitaire may be able to hitch a ride with a harlie troupe in a starweaver.
That makes for a nice combat unit.
Too bad it seems the kiss and caress not so great now.

I think the caress is pretty good, and fills a gap for players: it's a reliable high strength, decent AP weapon. It's going to shred T4/T5 models with good saves. And it's still wounding the largest tanks on 5s.
The kiss is really weird though. D3 damage isn't bad, but it doesn't have the punch to put wounds on most models that have many wounds. It's only good at killing T3 characters.

Embrace seems really solid now. I am glad I have modeled 6 of them for my army. It is the cheapest special weapon choice, and S4 with -3 AP is going to make it really good at chewing through infantry units - even marines will fear it. It lost its strength against vehicles, however, which used to be one of the things I liked about it. Oh well - it is definitely a change in role, but one that I look forward to.

The Voidweaver with Prismatic Cannon is straight nasty now. All of its different firing modes got better, IMO.

I like the "new haywire" too. Giving a mortal wound on any 4+ against a vehicle and still potentially getting another wound on it (which can be saved, of course) is pretty solid. I think Haywire bikes may see more of a resurgence.

I am not sure about the Death Jester, but at least he is more survivable now thanks to the "can't target the nearest character" rule. His "Death is not enough" rule is not as good as it used to be, instead just allowing you to pick the first model that flees if a unit he has shot fails a battleshock test. I suppose that was going to change, though, seeing as we don't having falling back any more. His Shrieker ammo does seem quite a bit improved, however.

Why is the Harlequin kiss so expensive? It's the worst out of the melee weapons and the most expensive.

Yeah, the Voidweaver is the real MVP here. The Prismatic Cannon looks downright deadly now - which is fortunate, because with Caresses changing to become more heavy infantry/light vehicle killers instead of anti-everything weapons we're going to need it to pop open those super-heavies.

The Kiss feels like it really needs to be Strength 6.

The Solitaire seems to have become a more reliable character killer, at the expense of losing some of his potential killiness against the really big, tough stuff.

Finally, I'm still trying to get over the fact that our invulnerable is now 4++. Like, that was one of those things that I put in the 'unrealistic wishlisting' column when wondering about what we'd look like in the new edition.

The kiss stats are reasonable, it's just costed about 5pts too much.

Shadowseer's powers are(except for mirror, which is ok), GREAT. I actually think that it finally makes sense to do harlequins over Ynnari, because rising cresendo is amazing now.
Let's put this scenario forward:
Shadowseer+6 skyweavers
Deploy outside of most enemy weapons(40" roughly?)
Give the skyweavers double move(WEEEE 32")
Advance +6"
Shoot 18 shuriken cannon shots with only a -1 to hit
charge 2d6 with 6 zyphrglaives

So yeh, moving 32+3d6" with shooting all your weapons for a -1 to hit is pretty great.
The debate of SfD vs Rising crescendo is really: Do I want to wait for my stuff to die, or would I rather advance in my own turn and not need to lose a few units to get the free move/charge?
With the new rising crescendo you get a move in your phase without losing units, making charges THAT turn more likely. Since overwatch isn't limited to once per phase anymore, you really need multiple units hitting at once. Also, in the case of skyweavers the choice is really obvious, as a guaranteed 22" move is way better for turn 1 charges. WEEEEEEE

For 2k, I got something like this:
Brigade Detachment
Shadowseer
Shadowseer
Troupe Master: Fusion Pistol, Embrace
Death Jester
Death Jester
Death Jester
Solitaire
8 Harlequins: Embraces
5x5 Harlequins: Harlequin Blade
4x2 Skyweavers: Shuriken Cannons, Zephyrglaives
3xVoidweaver: Prism Cannon

That's 1999 I believe. Give the 8man unit double move, run and charge. Run and charge the skyweavers, blitz the solitaire. 6 units charging turn 1, with 12 command points. Get wrecked?

I have been looking a lot into the leaks.

I still think Harlequins are great but a few thing bother me: the melee weapon and the initiative lost.

Harlequins were knowed to strike first and ignore armor (like demonette) but its seems that now we just run fast.
When demonette still have the strike first and the ignore armor on 6... :(

The Solitaire lost 2 attack on blitz and his strike first initiative... I can deal with the rest of harlequins loosing initiative (because they can shoot from a vehicule to avoid getting owned by demonette or banshee) but the Solitaire is supposed to be the one guys from the Harlequins you don't want to charge plus he is supposed to be "powered by Slaanesh" so maybe he should have Quicksilver swiftness to represent that?

But mostly, I think the biggest lost is the melee weapon. Before you picked them for different gameplay. Now, I think the go-to is embrace because the Kiss cost way too much(14pt for -1AP) and the caress is not worth it(I think AP is better than strength in 8th). Mostly, I really miss the luck factor of the Harlequin's weapon.

The neuro disruptor seems kind of useless now but I think the shuriken or fusion pistols are enough to deal with every situations.

Rising cresendo seems really nice. Like a dance , it dictates your action, first turn you just run at the enemy then you fallback shoot and repeat.

And by the way did you see the troll on the shadowseer? 7+ armor save , I know it's just to fill the blank but others have 6++.

Edit:
Just seen another troll (?), harlequin's blade are 1 points... So you have to pay your basic weapon when every faction don't need :/ I hope its an errata

The Troupe Master is so cheap i'm consider what it might look like to spam Troupe Masters (at least 1 per Troupe). You can nearly always protect them from shooting with the Character rule, they are quite durable with a 4+ invuln and 5 wounds, and give that awesome re-roll wound bubble. They also hit pretty hard compared to normal Troupe members, or at least might be a good candidate for loading a bunch out with Fusion Pistols, or Neurodisruptors to make use of that 2+.

I'm envisioning Harlequins remaining as a niche but viable formation within the Eldar army construction; you could always run the stats of another Eldar HQ as proxy so long as you model a Harlequin to fit the bill.

On the subject of the kiss:

I first thought it was kind of lackluster, but don't forget that the kiss in 7th gave the player a single attack, whereas now a player can use all the attacks on their profile. My mathhammer puts the number of wounds against TEQs and MCs in the same place (2-3 and 1-2, respectively), but much more effective because of the D3 damage mechanic. 2/3 of the time you'll outright kill the TEQ, and you can expect each wound to take a good chunk off that MC, degrading its stats.


(currently at work, don't have the datasheets in front of me, can justify mathhammer on request)

 Pschiit wrote:

I still think Harlequins are great but a few thing bother me: the melee weapon and the initiative lost.

Harlequins were knowed to strike first and ignore armor (like demonette) but its seems that now we just run fast.
When demonette still have the strike first and the ignore armor on 6... :(

Not having an initiative thing is OK. Gaining a 2" move(or 4" in the case of bikes/vehicles) across the board, and being able to run/charge the same turn without needing to load up on a bad formation, makes up for it though. That means you'll usually be the one charging, which means always going first on that crucial first round of melee.

Daemonettes have a slightly better melee attack unupgraded, but without any melee upgrade options, transports, being less durable, and not having any good support, they are by no means superior.


And let's a minute to appreciate the new skyweavers...
16" move, can auto-Advance 6" and still shoot, and charge. That means 22" move, plus a charge, only needing to be within an inch to make it. They WILL be turn 1 charging people. Love it!
Also, the move-in-the-psychic-phase power is bonkers good


So yes, maybe some things aren't quite perfect. But of course not. Look at the good(They gave us a 4++?!?! We should be screaming from the rooftops!)

The numbers do not add up. The kiss is 2.33 times more expensive than an embrace. It will not cause that much more damage due to poor AP value.

I did some quick and dirty excel math and generally found that the Embrace is always best against armored (2+, 3+, or 4+ armor), single wound, T3, T6, and T7 units. Against armored single-wound T4, T5, T8, and T9 units, the Caress is best. The Kiss, however, is better against T3 to T7 if the model has mutiple wounds.

This breaks down that the Kiss tends to be best against monsters and light vehicles (T6 and T7) whereas the Caress is best against T4 and T5 infantry, and heavy vehicles. The embrace is best in a weird niche category against single-wound T3 and T6/T7 (which I dont think exists).

This is all thrown on it's head when you calculate wounds caused as a proportion of weapon cost. In this case, the Embrace is the best value against T3-T7, and is essentially just as valueable as Caresses against T8-10.

To summarize, the Embrace is more effective against a strange niche of enemies, but it's value makes it the go-to weapon most likely. Whereas Kisses are best against multi-wound enemies, and Caresses occupy a very useable niche against 1 wound T4/T5 infantry - and scales nicely against stronger enemies.

For the cost, I am thinking of replacing all my Harlequin Sword guys with Embraces, but will probably continue to use a few Kisses and Caresses.

My real question is what is the best weapon on the Troupe Master?

 rollawaythestone wrote:
My real question is what is the best weapon on the Troupe Master?

Troupe masters will always reroll to wound, so the +1S from the caress is much less valuable.
A kiss might be okay against enemy characters. We'll have to see you things turn out on the battlefield, and how people bubble wrap their characters. But Harlequins can move over terrain and models, and have a 25mm base, so a single model like a master could have many opportunities to jump close to a character and charge it. Also, many characters have invul saves, so the embrace's AP will often be partially wasted. Added to the fact that the relative cost of the weapons is lower for the master (when you look at the price of a master + his weapon), I think the kiss will be viable.
But an embrace is also very good against anything that has decent armor and no invul (like most vehicles).

fresus wrote:

 rollawaythestone wrote:
My real question is what is the best weapon on the Troupe Master?

Troupe masters will always reroll to wound, so the +1S from the caress is much less valuable.
A kiss might be okay against enemy characters. We'll have to see you things turn out on the battlefield, and how people bubble wrap their characters. But Harlequins can move over terrain and models, and have a 25mm base, so a single model like a master could have many opportunities to jump close to a character and charge it. Also, many characters have invul saves, so the embrace's AP will often be partially wasted. Added to the fact that the relative cost of the weapons is lower for the master (when you look at the price of a master + his weapon), I think the kiss will be viable.
But an embrace is also very good against anything that has decent armor and no invul (like most vehicles).

this bodes terrible for my current harlies as many of my standard guys have kisses, and most that I used as Troupe Masters have Caresses! Rerolling wounds and the D3 damage, coupled with the extra attack might make the kiss a worthwhile addition (plus the 14pts is more reasonable on a 59pt model, rather than a 15pt model).

I ran the numbers alittle to see which weapon to put on my Troupe Master, and the caress isn't too bad actually. the kiss is also good vs certain targets but not so much vs single wound models obviously. Nice thing about the Solitaire, you can choose to allocate any number of attacks to each weapon as you wish. So you could go all caress, all kiss, or any combination of the 2 for your max attacks. that's pretty good.