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If the shooting sequence isn't explicit then no rule in the game is explicit. By your "house rule".
1. "weapon can be fired"
Firing a weapon is directly a part of the resolution and provides access to the shooting sequence rules.
Sequencing rule "proof reads" rules before they resolve to determine there will be no conflict.
Whether or not the rule is being used is irrelevant.
2. Nominate a Unit, Select a Weapon. The select weapon will resolve first.
3. No one can win an argument with you, you make up your own rules and argue until the thread is locked even when you are wrong.
Interceptor does not have an "opt to fire" statement.
Grammatical case of "Can vs May".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/13 21:08:17
Ceann wrote: If the shooting sequence isn't explicit then no rule in the game is explicit. By your "house rule".
1. "weapon can be fired"
Firing a weapon is directly a part of the resolution and provides access to the shooting sequence rules.
Sequencing rule "proof reads" rules before they resolve to determine there will be no conflict.
Whether or not the rule is being used is irrelevant.
2. Nominate a Unit, Select a Weapon. The select weapon will resolve first.
3. No one can win an argument with you, you make up your own rules and argue until the thread is locked even when you are wrong.
Interceptor does not have an "opt to fire" statement.
Grammatical case of "Can vs May".
Got it. You aren't able to show how the Shooting Sequence provides an explicitly detailed counter proposal.
Your argument is defeated since you have presented no counter proposal.
Here is what an explicitly detailed proposal looks like . . .
Spoiler:
The ACTIVE player chooses the order in which the Interceptor permissions are resolved.
The ACTIVE player choose one Interceptor rule to resolve first. That interceptor rule is resolved by the controlling player making a choice to fire or not to fire (using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire).
Then the ACTIVE player chooses the next Interceptor rule to resolve. That interceptor rule is resolved by the controlling player making a choice to fire or not to fire (using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire).
Then the ACTIVE player chooses the next Interceptor rule to resolve. That interceptor rule is resolved by the controlling player making a choice to fire or not to fire (using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire).
Rinse and Repeat.
My proposal works in detail and is completely validated by the rules.
By the way, Overwatch is explicit as to how it works out the various competing rule permssions so if you need an example of "explicit" in the rules then check out Overwatch.
An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Assault phase) and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on.
Resolve Multiple Overwatch
If a unit declares a charge against two or more target units, all of the target units can fire Overwatch! Resolve each unit’s Overwatch shots separately in an order determined by the firing units’ controlling player.
Interceptor does not have those explicit permissions.
There is no permission to lump all of the instances of Interceptor into a single pool for a shooting sequence (as in Overwatch) or for the firing player to dictate the order during the opponent's turn among multiple Intercepting units (as in Multiple Overwatch).
In the absence of the specific allowances afforded Overwatch, Interceptor is resolved in a piecemeal fashion with each instance resolved separably based on the sequence of the ACTIVE players choosing, per the Sequencing rule.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/13 21:21:07
You ignore "Can vs May" in your "argument".
You ignore the shooting sequence rules for "nominate a unit and selecting a weapon".
You invented this "moment in time" that has no rule support.
You ignore that "opting to fire" isn't even in Interceptor.
How is your argument explicit when I can point out all the things you ignore in mere moments not to mention the things you make up. This is always your "closing" argument. Invent as many things as possible.
Are you going to add "sacrificed a goat" into your argument next?
Argumentum ad ignorantiam all day every day.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/13 21:29:14
Ceann wrote: You ignore "Can vs May" in your "argument".
I do not. The BRB uses "can" and "may" interchangeably to express permissions. For example, "can" is used to express "be permitted to" in the Movement rules.
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance. Once a unit has completed all of its movement, you can select another unit and move that one, and so on, until you have moved all of the units you wish to move. Once you have started moving a unit, you must finish its move before you start to move another unit. Note that you don’t have to move all (or any) of your units – indeed, there are several tactical advantages to remaining stationary, as we’ll explain later in the rules. Once you’ve completed a unit’s move, you cannot go back and change it, so think carefully before giving the order to advance.
Clearly the BRB uses 'can' to express permissions and 'cannot' to express restrictions. You are presenting a false dichotomy between "can" and "may" that the BRB does not recognize. If you feel otherwise prove it with an example from the BRB
Ceann wrote: You ignore the shooting sequence rules for "nominate a unit and selecting a weapon".
You have yet to show how the Shooting Sequence rules come into play. This isn't the Shooting Phase or Overwatch so how do they come into play? By the time any Shooting Sequence rules come into play the Sequencing rule will have already intervened and imposed a sequence to the multiple Interceptor rule resolutions in an order of the ACTIVE players choosing.
Ceann wrote: You invented this "moment in time" that has no rule support.
Incorrect. I applied the Sequencing rule's own criteria for determining if the time statement leads to an 'AT THE SAME TIME' condition. I have no choice but to treat "at THE END of the enemy Movement phase" as SIMILAR to "at THE START of the Movement phase".
Ceann wrote: You ignore that "opting to fire" isn't even in Interceptor.
I am not ignoring anything. "Can be fired" is permission granted by the rule. The problem is all of those multiple Interceptor rules are competing to resolve AT THE SAME TIME. The Sequencing rule must be applied. By the time any Interceptor weapon is fired, the Sequencing rule will have already organized the order in which the multiple Interceptor rules resolve.
Ceann wrote: How is your argument explicit when I can point out all the things you ignore in mere moments not to mention the things you make up. This is always your "closing" argument. Invent as many things as possible.
Are you going to add "sacrificed a goat" into your argument next?
I have addressed everything and as I have shown my proposal is completely validated by the rules.
Spoiler:
The ACTIVE player chooses the order in which the Interceptor permissions are resolved.
The ACTIVE player choose one Interceptor rule to resolve first. That interceptor rule is resolved by the controlling player making a choice to fire or not to fire (using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire).
Then the ACTIVE player chooses the next Interceptor rule to resolve. That interceptor rule is resolved by the controlling player making a choice to fire or not to fire (using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire).
Then the ACTIVE player chooses the next Interceptor rule to resolve. That interceptor rule is resolved by the controlling player making a choice to fire or not to fire (using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire).
Rinse and Repeat.
I don't need a sacrificial goat since the rules are on my side here.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2017/05/13 21:54:07
Ceann wrote: You ignore "Can vs May" in your "argument".
I do not. The BRB uses "can" and "may" interchangeably to express permissions. For example, "can" is used to express "be permitted to" in the Movement rules.
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance. Once a unit has completed all of its movement, you can select another unit and move that one, and so on, until you have moved all of the units you wish to move. Once you have started moving a unit, you must finish its move before you start to move another unit. Note that you don’t have to move all (or any) of your units – indeed, there are several tactical advantages to remaining stationary, as we’ll explain later in the rules. Once you’ve completed a unit’s move, you cannot go back and change it, so think carefully before giving the order to advance.
Clearly the BRB uses 'can' to express permissions and 'cannot' to express restrictions. You are presenting a false dichotomy between "can" and "may" that the BRB does not recognize. If you feel otherwise prove it with an example from the BRB
Ceann wrote: You ignore the shooting sequence rules for "nominate a unit and selecting a weapon".
You have yet to show how the Shooting Sequence rules come into play. This isn't the Shooting Phase or Overwatch so how do they come into play?
Ceann wrote: You invented this "moment in time" that has no rule support.
Incorrect. I applied the Sequencing rule's own criteria for determining if the time statement leads to an 'AT THE SAME TIME' condition. I have no choice but to treat "at THE END of the enemy Movement phase" as SIMILAR to "at THE START of the Movement phase".
Ceann wrote: You ignore that "opting to fire" isn't even in Interceptor.
I am not ignoring anything. "Can be fired" is permission granted by the rule. The problem is all of those multiple Interceptor rules are competing to resolve AT THE SAME TIME. The Sequencing rule must be applied. By the time any Interceptor weapon is fired, the Sequencing rule will have already organized the order in which the multiple Interceptor rules resolve.
Ceann wrote: How is your argument explicit when I can point out all the things you ignore in mere moments not to mention the things you make up. This is always your "closing" argument. Invent as many things as possible.
Are you going to add "sacrificed a goat" into your argument next?
I have addressed everything and as I have shown my proposal is completely validated by the rules.
Spoiler:
The ACTIVE player chooses the order in which the Interceptor permissions are resolved.
The ACTIVE player choose one Interceptor rule to resolve first. That interceptor rule is resolved by the controlling player making a choice to fire or not to fire (using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire).
Then the ACTIVE player chooses the next Interceptor rule to resolve. That interceptor rule is resolved by the controlling player making a choice to fire or not to fire (using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire).
Then the ACTIVE player chooses the next Interceptor rule to resolve. That interceptor rule is resolved by the controlling player making a choice to fire or not to fire (using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire).
Rinse and Repeat.
I don't need a sacrificial goat since the rules are on my side here.
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to
be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or similar.
When this happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first, then
the player whose turn it is chooses the order.
When multiple rules would appear to resolve at the same time. The sequencing rule checks the WORDING to verify if which one will resolve first will be established.
If it is not established then the active player will be tasked with establishing it.
At the end of the enemy Movement phase, a weapon with the Interceptor special rule can
be fired at any one unit...
"at the end of the enemy movement phase", the subject, "a weapon", "can be" the action, "fired."
The action of firing is a "shooting attack" and the resolution of Interceptor.
So does the resolution explicitly tell us which rule will resolve first?
3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with.
When we select a weapon as part of the resolution we are singling out a particular weapon with a particular instance of Interceptor.
As the wording has now been checked, and which one will resolve first can be established, the "Sequencing" rule goes back to bed.
There is nothing for it to do.
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to
be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or similar.
When this happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first, then
the player whose turn it is chooses the order.
When multiple rules would appear to resolve at the same time. The sequencing rule checks the WORDING to verify if which one will resolve first will be established.
If it is not established then the active player will be tasked with establishing it.
At the end of the enemy Movement phase, a weapon with the Interceptor special rule can
be fired at any one unit...
"at the end of the enemy movement phase", the subject, "a weapon", "can be" the action, "fired."
The action of firing is a "shooting attack" and the resolution of Interceptor.
So does the resolution explicitly tell us which rule will resolve first?
3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with.
When we select a weapon as part of the resolution we are singling out a particular weapon with a particular instance of Interceptor.
As the wording has now been checked, and which one will resolve first can be established, the "Sequencing" rule goes back to bed.
There is nothing for it to do.
This isn't the Shooting phase. Where do you see permission to use the Shooting Sequence rules?
The Shooting Sequence is tied inextricably to the Shooting phase.
Spoiler:
As armies engage, guns thunder and shrapnel rains down from the sky. In a Warhammer 40,000 battle, a player’s army fires in the Shooting phase of his turn. During the Shooting phase, units armed with ranged weapons can fire at the enemy. You can choose any order for your units to shoot, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move on to the next.
The shooting process can be summarised in seven steps, as described below. Each step is explained in greater detail later in this section. Once you’ve completed this shooting sequence with one of your units, select another and repeat the sequence. Once you have completed steps 1 to 7 for each unit in your army that you wish to make a shooting attack, carry on to the Assault phase.
For example . . .
NOMINATE A UNIT TO SHOOT
During the Shooting phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks.
This isn't "during the shooting phase" so the rules do not allow you to even nominate a unit to shoot. The rules for the Shooting Sequence break.
In the absence of the rules for Shooting Sequence, the multiple Interceptor rules are resolved using just the Interceptor rules provided, in the order dictated by the ACTIVE player.
Overwatch has permission to have an out of sequence Shooting phase. Interceptor does not.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/13 22:12:52
I'm just sitting here wondering how the two of you don't get tired of your endless back and forth in what feels like every other YMDC thread. I would have thought that at some point you'd simply agree to disagree, regardless of who's right, but nope.
Roknar wrote: I'm just sitting here wondering how the two of you don't get tired of your endless back and forth in what feels like every other YMDC thread. I would have thought that at some point you'd simply agree to disagree, regardless of who's right, but nope.
As one who has participated in such a circus many times, I am glad to have had the one on Ignore for some time now.
Unless anyone else has something to say that hasn't already been stated, this should just be locked.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to
be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or similar.
When this happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first, then
the player whose turn it is chooses the order.
When multiple rules would appear to resolve at the same time. The sequencing rule checks the WORDING to verify if which one will resolve first will be established.
If it is not established then the active player will be tasked with establishing it.
At the end of the enemy Movement phase, a weapon with the Interceptor special rule can
be fired at any one unit...
"at the end of the enemy movement phase", the subject, "a weapon", "can be" the action, "fired."
The action of firing is a "shooting attack" and the resolution of Interceptor.
So does the resolution explicitly tell us which rule will resolve first?
3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with.
When we select a weapon as part of the resolution we are singling out a particular weapon with a particular instance of Interceptor.
As the wording has now been checked, and which one will resolve first can be established, the "Sequencing" rule goes back to bed.
There is nothing for it to do.
This isn't the Shooting phase. Where do you see permission to use the Shooting Sequence rules?
The Shooting Sequence is tied inextricably to the Shooting phase.
Spoiler:
As armies engage, guns thunder and shrapnel rains down from the sky. In a Warhammer 40,000 battle, a player’s army fires in the Shooting phase of his turn. During the Shooting phase, units armed with ranged weapons can fire at the enemy. You can choose any order for your units to shoot, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move on to the next.
The shooting process can be summarised in seven steps, as described below. Each step is explained in greater detail later in this section. Once you’ve completed this shooting sequence with one of your units, select another and repeat the sequence. Once you have completed steps 1 to 7 for each unit in your army that you wish to make a shooting attack, carry on to the Assault phase.
For example . . .
NOMINATE A UNIT TO SHOOT
During the Shooting phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks.
This isn't "during the shooting phase" so the rules do not allow you to even nominate a unit to shoot. The rules for the Shooting Sequence break.
In the absence of the rules for Shooting Sequence, the multiple Interceptor rules are resolved using just the Interceptor rules provided, in the order dictated by the ACTIVE player.
Overwatch has permission to have an out of sequence Shooting phase. Interceptor does not.
It has permission to fire, firing uses the shooting sequence.
There is no conflict.
It has permission to fire, firing uses the shooting sequence.
There is no conflict.
Read the Shooting Sequence rules. The rules are tied to the Shooting phase.
Spoiler:
NOMINATE A UNIT TO SHOOT
During the Shooting phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks.
You cannot nominate a unit to shoot since that action is tied to "during the Shooting phase" and this isn't a Shooting phase. This is "at THE END of the enemy Movement phase".
Further, there is no rule that says that firing uses the Shooting Sequence rules. You have made that up. If you think otherwise, then provide the rule that says so.
Again, how are you even using the Shooting Sequence rules? You don't need them to resolve an Interceptor shot.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/13 22:29:08
We can nominate a unit to shoot.
Interceptor is a special rule that has granted permission to fire.
Using the shooting sequence is the only way to fire a weapon. If you have another method I would be glad to hear it.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, SHOOTING, and close combat as well as the rules
for morale.
As you can see they already have access to the rules they are just being granted permission to use them at a time other than when they would normally be used.
Namely "at the end of the movement phase". Nothing has removed these rules from the units and they can still use them with permission.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/13 22:50:10
Ceann wrote: We can nominate a unit to shoot.
Interceptor is a special rule that has granted permission to fire.
Using the shooting sequence is the only way to fire a weapon. If you have another method I would be glad to hear it.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, SHOOTING, and close combat as well as the rules
for morale.
As you can see they already have access to the rules they are just being granted permission to use them at a time other than when they would normally be used.
Namely "at the end of the movement phase". Nothing has removed these rules from the units and they can still use them with permission.
Per the Shooting Sequence rules you cannot Nominate a Unit since it's not "during a Shooting phase".
NOMINATE A UNIT TO SHOOT
During the Shooting phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks.
In fact, you do not need the Shooting Sequence rules at all.
The shot from an Interceptor weapon is a solitary shooting attack.
All that is required is a To Hit roll and a To Wound roll.
The Interceptor rule already references a weapon, line of sight, range, and a firing model.
So the Shooting Sequence rules are not required at all.
Which is good, since the Shooting Sequence rules BREAK if you try to use them for Interceptor.
This is the only solution supported by the rules . . .
Spoiler:
The ACTIVE player chooses the order in which the Interceptor permissions are resolved.
The ACTIVE player choose one Interceptor rule to resolve first. That interceptor rule is resolved by the controlling player making a choice to fire or not to fire (using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire).
Then the ACTIVE player chooses the next Interceptor rule to resolve. That interceptor rule is resolved by the controlling player making a choice to fire or not to fire (using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire).
Then the ACTIVE player chooses the next Interceptor rule to resolve. That interceptor rule is resolved by the controlling player making a choice to fire or not to fire (using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire).
Rinse and Repeat.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/13 23:04:34
Roknar wrote: I'm just sitting here wondering how the two of you don't get tired of your endless back and forth in what feels like every other YMDC thread. I would have thought that at some point you'd simply agree to disagree, regardless of who's right, but nope.
As one who has participated in such a circus many times, I am glad to have had the one on Ignore for some time now.
Unless anyone else has something to say that hasn't already been stated, this should just be locked.
Ceann wrote: A model is a member of a unit.
In order for the model to fire, you have to nominate the unit.
You nominate a unit, and then you select a weapon, that weapon fires.
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn.
3. 3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All MODELS equipped with a weapon with the same name...
It is not a "solitary shot" you have to consult the unit in order to know what the models BS is, in order to resolve the "Hit" roll.
This is hypocrisy...
"using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire). "
What rules are you using for this "shooting attack" ?
The only way to shoot, at all period, is to use the shooting sequence.
"At THE END of the enemy Movement phase" is not a Shooting phase so you don't have permission to Nominate a Unit to Shoot.
And there is no rule telling you to use the rules for a Shooting Sequence.
The Interceptor rule already provides a firing model, a weapon, a targeting criteria, and direct rule references for line of sight and range.
So to fire the Interceptor weapon you only need to Roll to Hit (or the equivalent - e.g., template) and Roll to Wound (or the equivalent - e.g., D Weapon Attack Table roll).
The "can be fired" portion of the Interceptor rule justifies a Roll to Hit and a Roll to Wound, but that is it, no more is required.
So the Shooting Sequence rules are not required at all.
Which is good, since if you try to use the Shooting Sequence rules for Interceptor then the Shooting Sequence rules BREAK since we are not in a Shooting phase.
Remember, Overwatch has explicit permissions . . .
An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Assault phase) and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on.
Resolve Multiple Overwatch
If a unit declares a charge against two or more target units, all of the target units can fire Overwatch! Resolve each unit’s Overwatch shots separately in an order determined by the firing units’ controlling player.
Interceptor does not have those explicit permissions.
There is no permission to lump all of the instances of Interceptor into a single pool for a shooting sequence (as in Overwatch) or for the firing player to dictate the order during the opponent's turn among multiple Intercepting units (as in Multiple Overwatch).
In the absence of the specific allowances afforded Overwatch, Interceptor is resolved in a piecemeal fashion with each Interceptor rule resolved separably based on the sequence of the ACTIVE players choosing.
Roknar wrote: I'm just sitting here wondering how the two of you don't get tired of your endless back and forth in what feels like every other YMDC thread. I would have thought that at some point you'd simply agree to disagree, regardless of who's right, but nope.
As one who has participated in such a circus many times, I am glad to have had the one on Ignore for some time now.
Unless anyone else has something to say that hasn't already been stated, this should just be locked.
Like EASILY 5 pages ago lol.
Stay out of off-topic for your sanity. I only go there in spurts and i generally regret it due to a few awful people.
Ceann wrote: A model is a member of a unit.
In order for the model to fire, you have to nominate the unit.
You nominate a unit, and then you select a weapon, that weapon fires.
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn.
3. 3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All MODELS equipped with a weapon with the same name...
It is not a "solitary shot" you have to consult the unit in order to know what the models BS is, in order to resolve the "Hit" roll.
This is hypocrisy...
"using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire). "
What rules are you using for this "shooting attack" ?
The only way to shoot, at all period, is to use the shooting sequence.
"At THE END of the enemy Movement phase" is not a Shooting phase so you don't have permission to Nominate a Unit to Shoot.
And there is no rule telling you to use the rules for a Shooting Sequence.
The Interceptor rule already provides a firing model, a weapon, a targeting criteria, and direct rule references for line of sight and range.
So to fire the Interceptor weapon you only need to Roll to Hit (or the equivalent - e.g., template) and Roll to Wound (or the equivalent - e.g., D Weapon Attack Table roll).
The "can be fired" portion of the Interceptor rule justifies a Roll to Hit and a Roll to Wound, but that is it, no more is required.
So the Shooting Sequence rules are not required at all.
Which is good, since if you try to use the Shooting Sequence rules for Interceptor then the Shooting Sequence rules BREAK since we are not in a Shooting phase.
Remember, Overwatch has explicit permissions . . .
An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Assault phase) and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on.
Resolve Multiple Overwatch
If a unit declares a charge against two or more target units, all of the target units can fire Overwatch! Resolve each unit’s Overwatch shots separately in an order determined by the firing units’ controlling player.
Interceptor does not have those explicit permissions.
There is no permission to lump all of the instances of Interceptor into a single pool for a shooting sequence (as in Overwatch) or for the firing player to dictate the order during the opponent's turn among multiple Intercepting units (as in Multiple Overwatch).
In the absence of the specific allowances afforded Overwatch, Interceptor is resolved in a piecemeal fashion with each Interceptor rule resolved separably based on the sequence of the ACTIVE players choosing.
You use the shooting rules regardless, they are applied to all models.
They all have access to those rules and nothing has removed them.
I don't care what overwatch has, it is apples to oranges.
Overwatch isn't a special rule so it needs to have explicit permissions to use them outside of the shooting phase.
Interceptor is a special rule so it is permitted to access them, all models have those rules.
Per the FAQ Intercepting uses the same rules as the shooting phase.
Ex.
SHOOTING
Monstrous Creatures can fire up to two of their weapons each Shooting phase
Q: Do abilities that allow a model to fire an extra weapon
in the Shooting phase allow them to fire an extra weapon in
Overwatch or while intercepting (e.g. Monstrous Creatures and
Tau multi-trackers)?
A: Yes. In the case of Interceptor, only weapons with the
Interceptor rule can be fired.
This clearly demonstrates that the rules for the shooting phase are used when intercepting.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/05/14 11:55:43
SHOOTING
Monstrous Creatures can fire up to two of their weapons each Shooting phase
Q: Do abilities that allow a model to fire an extra weapon
in the Shooting phase allow them to fire an extra weapon in
Overwatch or while intercepting (e.g. Monstrous Creatures and
Tau multi-trackers)?
A: Yes. In the case of Interceptor, only weapons with the
Interceptor rule can be fired.
This clearly demonstrates that the rules for the shooting phase are used when intercepting.
Ceann, I think you need to read the FAQ item again.
The FAQ does not say to treat Intercepting as a Shooting phase.
The FAQ merely says that abilities that allow a models to fire an extra weapon in the Shooting phase will also allow them to fire an extra weapon in Overwatch or while Intercepting.
In fact, the FAQ item underscores that Intercepting is categorically different than the Shooting phase.
Unless you can show me a rule in the BRB (or an FAQ item) that says to treat Interceptor as a Shooting phase then the rules are not on your side and my argument wins as the one that is actually supported by the rules.
You need to show me permissions for Interceptor that look like these for Overwatch.
An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Assault phase) and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on.
Resolve Multiple Overwatch
If a unit declares a charge against two or more target units, all of the target units can fire Overwatch! Resolve each unit’s Overwatch shots separately in an order determined by the firing units’ controlling player.
Intercept lacks those permissions. If you treat Interceptor like Overwatch then you are making up permissions where none exist, and you are houseruling.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/14 20:25:28
Again you have no idea what you are talking about.
Overwatch is a basic rule, in order to perform out of phase shooting it is required to have explicitly stated.
Interceptor is a special rule and ignores the phase conflict.
Units always have access to the shooting rules, they apply to all models. Overwatch provides explicit permission, Interceptor provides special rule precedence.
There is no other way to perform a shooting attack.
What the FAQ demonstrates is that you use the same rules from the shooting phase, in this circumstance a MC, in overwatch and interceptor.
It doesnt require much thought to read it as "do abilities that allow a model to do X in the shooting phase allow a model to do X in overwatch or intercepting., and the answer was.... Yes.
No one is making up anything you are just living in a permanent state of denial.
Ceann wrote: Again you have no idea what you are talking about.
Overwatch is a basic rule, in order to perform out of phase shooting it is required to have explicitly stated.
Interceptor is a special rule and ignores the phase conflict.
Units always have access to the shooting rules, they apply to all models. Overwatch provides explicit permission, Interceptor provides special rule precedence.
There is no other way to perform a shooting attack.
What the FAQ demonstrates is that you use the same rules from the shooting phase, in this circumstance a MC, in overwatch and interceptor.
It doesnt require much thought to read it as "do abilities that allow a model to do X in the shooting phase allow a model to do X in overwatch or intercepting., and the answer was.... Yes.
No one is making up anything you are just living in a permanent state of denial.
The FAQ narrowly grants the ability for models with Interceptor weapons to fire more than one weapon.
If you use the FAQ to claim that Interceptor generates a Shooting phase then you are House Ruling. The FAQ makes no such claim. You are kidding yourself.
Ceann wrote: There is no other way to perform a shooting attack.
Incorrect. The Interceptor rule itself provides everything it needs to make a shooting attack.
A weapon is already designated by Interceptor (and with that a firing model and a firing unit).
Interceptor has its own targeting criteria and directly references range and line of sight.
Neither a Shooting phase nor a Shooting Sequence are required for Interceptor to perform what amounts to a solitary shooting attack per Interceptor rule.
The shooting attack simply happens based on what Interceptor already provides.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/15 00:05:27
JNAProductions wrote: So where in the Interceptor rules does it tell you how to hit, or wound, or resolve saves?
So Interceptor requires a To Hit Roll and a To Wound roll. Those are rules in the BRB.
I have already indicated that the Interceptor "can be fired" justifies a To Hit Roll and a To Wound Roll.
col_impact wrote:"At THE END of the enemy Movement phase" is not a Shooting phase so you don't have permission to Nominate a Unit to Shoot.
And there is no rule telling you to use the rules for a Shooting Sequence.
The Interceptor rule already provides a firing model, a weapon, a targeting criteria, and direct rule references for line of sight and range.
So to fire the Interceptor weapon you only need to Roll to Hit (or the equivalent - e.g., template) and Roll to Wound (or the equivalent - e.g., D Weapon Attack Table roll).
The "can be fired" portion of the Interceptor rule justifies a Roll to Hit and a Roll to Wound, but that is it, no more is required.
So the Shooting Sequence rules are not required at all.
Which is good, since if you try to use the Shooting Sequence rules for Interceptor then the Shooting Sequence rules BREAK since we are not in a Shooting phase.
So it looks like we are in agreement then that Interceptor only requires a To Hit Roll and a To Wound roll to perform a shooting attack.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/15 00:20:52
Where in the BRB are these rules located you are using?
A page number would be fantastic.
No one said they agreed with you, we are asking you to clarify what you stated.
You CAN'T be referring to these?
col_impact wrote:"At THE END of the enemy Movement phase" is not a Shooting phase so you don't have permission to Nominate a Unit to Shoot.
And there is no rule telling you to use the rules for a Shooting Sequence.
The Interceptor rule already provides a firing model, a weapon, a targeting criteria, and direct rule references for line of sight and range.
So to fire the Interceptor weapon you only need to Roll to Hit (or the equivalent - e.g., template) and Roll to Wound (or the equivalent - e.g., D Weapon Attack Table roll).
The "can be fired" portion of the Interceptor rule justifies a Roll to Hit and a Roll to Wound, but that is it, no more is required.
So the Shooting Sequence rules are not required at all.
Which is good, since if you try to use the Shooting Sequence rules for Interceptor then the Shooting Sequence rules BREAK since we are not in a Shooting phase.
The Shooting Sequence
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but
has yet to do so this turn.
2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.
3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models
equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the
target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one
visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in
range, cannot shoot.
4. Roll To Hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A model’s Ballistic Skill determines
what it must roll in order to hit the target.
5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the
target. The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing
weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.
6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties. Any Wounds caused by the firing
unit must now be allocated, one at a time, to the closest model in the target
unit. A model with a Wound allocated to it can take a saving throw (if it has
one) to avoid being wounded. If a model is reduced to 0 Wounds, it is removed
as a casualty. Wounds are then allocated to the next closest model. Continue to
allocate Wounds and take saving throws until all Wounds have been resolved.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/05/15 00:42:37
Ceann wrote: Where in the BRB are these rules located you are using?
A page number would be fantastic.
No one said they agreed with you, we are asking you to clarify what you stated.
Roll to Hit is on page 32. Roll to Wound is on page 34.
Interceptor "can be fired" justifies a Roll to Hit. And once you have a hit then a Roll to Wound (and any Wound allocation) is justified. Those are the only rules that are required for an Interceptor shot to resolve.
It's good that those are the only actual rules required, since if you try to use the Shooting Sequence rules for Interceptor then the Shooting Sequence rules BREAK since we are not in a Shooting phase.
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but
has yet to do so this turn.
2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.
3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models
equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the
target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one
visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in
range, cannot shoot.
4. Roll To Hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A model’s Ballistic Skill determines
what it must roll in order to hit the target.
5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the
target. The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing
weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.
6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties. Any Wounds caused by the firing
unit must now be allocated, one at a time, to the closest model in the target
unit. A model with a Wound allocated to it can take a saving throw (if it has
one) to avoid being wounded. If a model is reduced to 0 Wounds, it is removed
as a casualty. Wounds are then allocated to the next closest model. Continue to
allocate Wounds and take saving throws until all Wounds have been resolved.
You can't use the Shooting Sequence rules.
1) There is no rule telling you to use the Shooting Sequence rules.
2) The Shooting Sequence rules BREAK since it is not a Shooting phase. See spoiler below.
Spoiler:
NOMINATE A UNIT TO SHOOT
During the Shooting phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/15 00:48:26
Those pages explain the STEPS of the shooting sequence.
Nothing in the sequence BREAKS.
Interceptor is a special rule, enabled to break or bend rules.
Notice that Nominate a Unit calls out special rules.
NOMINATE A UNIT TO SHOOT
During the Shooting phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks.
This is not a comprehensive list. Other game rules or special rules can sometimes affect a unit’s ability to shoot...
Choosing a target tells you to pick a unit...
CHOOSE A TARGET
Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at.
Shooting a weapon tells you a unit...
SELECT A WEAPON
When firing with a unit, completely resolve all attacks
from the same weapons...
Regardless you have explained, in detail yourself.
How Interceptor explicitly tells you what to do.
You cannot resolve two shooting attacks at the same time, there are no rules for this.
Sequencing never engages, because Interceptor is explicit.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/05/15 00:59:07
Those pages explain the STEPS of the shooting sequence.
Nothing in the sequence BREAKS.
Interceptor is a special rule, enabled to break or bend rules.
Notice that Nominate a Unit calls out special rules.
NOMINATE A UNIT TO SHOOT
During the Shooting phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks.
This is not a comprehensive list. Other game rules or special rules can sometimes affect a unit’s ability to shoot...
Choosing a target tells you to pick a unit...
CHOOSE A TARGET
Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at.
Shooting a weapon tells you a unit...
SELECT A WEAPON
When firing with a unit, completely resolve all attacks
from the same weapons...
You don't need the Shooting Sequence rules to resolve the Interceptor shooting attack.
1) No rule is telling us to have a Shooting phase or to use the Shooting Sequence rules.
2) The Shooting Sequence rules only work in a Shooting phase.
3) You are unable to Nominate a Unit to Shoot unless you are in a Shooting Phase
NOMINATE A UNIT TO SHOOT
During the Shooting phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be
nominated to make shooting attacks.
So the Shooting Sequence rules break if you are not in a Shooting phase.
But all that doesn't matter since Interceptor doesn't require the Shooting Sequence rules.
Interceptor does not need to Nominate a Unit to Shoot nor does it need to Select A Weapon.
An Interceptor weapon (along with the associated firing model and firing unit) have already been designated by the Interceptor rule.
Interceptor has its own targeting criteria and direct references range and line of sight rules in the BRB.
The only thing that Interceptor requires is a To Hit roll and a To Wound roll.
The Interceptor "can be fired" justifies a To Hit roll (page 32) and a To Wound roll (page 34).
Ceann wrote: Regardless you have explained, in detail yourself.
How Interceptor explicitly tells you what to do.
You cannot resolve two shooting attacks at the same time, there are no rules for this.
Sequencing never engages, because Interceptor is explicit.
Laugh out loud. Interceptor is most assuredly not explicit with regards to how to resolve multiple Interceptor shots. Overwatch is explicit, but Interceptor is not.
You are aware of what explicit means, right?
explicit - stated clearly and in detail, leaving no room for confusion or doubt
So it goes without saying that the Interceptor is not explicit with regards to how to resolve multiple Interceptor shots. Multiple Interceptor shots is not discussed at all by the Interceptor rule so it is the opposite of 'explicit'.
If the player decides not to fire the Interceptor weapon then that particular Interceptor rule will resolve quickly. The end of the enemy movement phase will pass quickly to the beginning of the enemy Shooting phase if that's the only Interceptor rule to resolve.
If the player decides to fire the Interceptor weapon then the shot will then in turn need to be resolved (the hit resolved, any damage resolved, etc.) before the Interceptor rule itself resolves to completion and game play moves to the beginning of the enemy Psychic phase.
Of course as we know, if we have multiple Interceptor rules, all those multiple Interceptor rules are to be resolved at the same time ("at the end of the enemy Movement phase") so the Sequencer rule applies and mandates that the ACTIVE player dictates the order in which the multiple Instancer permissions are resolved.
Spoiler:
It is the multiple Intercept rules that are being sequenced by the ACTIVE player.
Resolving the Interceptor rule means choosing whether or not to fire when the opportunity to fire occurs.
The multiple instances of "can be fired" "at the end of the enemy Movement phase" from the multiple Interceptor rule need to be sequenced.
Remember, this is not a shooting phase so in order to be able to shoot the controlling player must access one of the Interceptor permissions so that he "can" fire and the controlling player does not get to order his access to those Interceptor permissions.
The ACTIVE player dictates the order in which those permissions are accessed by the controlling player, per the Sequencing rule.
That permission must be completely resolved before moving on to the next Interceptor permission since Interceptor lacks the Overwatch permission to treat this like an out of order Shooting Phase.
Normally, this would result in the controlling player dictating the permissions but since it's not the controlling player's turn then it winds up being the ACTIVE players responsibility to sequence those permissions.
Basically, Interceptor is not Overwatch.
Overwatch has these specific permissions . . .
An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Assault phase) and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on.
Resolve Multiple Overwatch
If a unit declares a charge against two or more target units, all of the target units can fire Overwatch! Resolve each unit’s Overwatch shots separately in an order determined by the firing units’ controlling player.
. . . Interceptor does not have those specific permissions.
There is no permission to lump all of the instances of Interceptor into a single pool for a shooting sequence (as in Overwatch) or for the firing player to dictate the order during the opponent's turn among multiple Intercepting units (as in Multiple Overwatch).
In the absence of the specific allowances afforded Overwatch, Interceptor is resolved in a piecemeal fashion with each instance resolved separably based on the sequence of the ACTIVE players choosing.
Piecemeal fashion
The ACTIVE player chooses the order in which the Interceptor permissions are resolved.
The ACTIVE player choose one Interceptor rule to resolve first. That interceptor rule is resolved by the controlling player making a choice to fire or not to fire (using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire).
Then the ACTIVE player chooses the next Interceptor rule to resolve. That interceptor rule is resolved by the controlling player making a choice to fire or not to fire (using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire).
Then the ACTIVE player chooses the next Interceptor rule to resolve. That interceptor rule is resolved by the controlling player making a choice to fire or not to fire (using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire).
Rinse and Repeat.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/05/15 01:29:29
Ceann wrote: Show us the rules to resolve two shooting attacks simultaneously.
Apply wounds to two separate units at the same time.
All of the dice rolled together.
Each Interceptor rule resolves only a single solitary shooting attack.
So there are never two Interceptor shooting attacks to resolve unless there are two or more Interceptor rules being resolved at the same time.
In the case of two or more Interceptor rules trying to resolve AT THE SAME TIME then the Sequencing rule applies.
SEQUENCING
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or similar. When this happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first, then the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a game turn, the players roll-off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved in.
The Sequencing rule is invoked whenever we have two or more rules happening at the same time.
We have two or more Interceptor rules happening "at the end of the enemy Movement phase".
The opponent is the active player.
There is no statement in the Interceptor rule that the player with the Intercepting units gets to choose the order in the case of multiple units with Interceptor. So nothing is overriding the Sequencing rule.
There is no permission to lump all of the instances of Interceptor into a single pool for a shooting sequence (as in Overwatch) or for the firing player to dictate the order among multiple Intercepting units (as in Multiple Overwatch).
In the absence of such permission, the multiple Interceptor rules are resolved in piecemeal fashion with each Interceptor rule resolved separably based on the sequence of the ACTIVE players choosing.
Piecemeal fashion
The ACTIVE player chooses the order in which the Interceptor permissions are resolved.
The ACTIVE player choose one Interceptor rule to resolve first. That interceptor rule is resolved by the controlling player making a choice to fire or not to fire (using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire).
Then the ACTIVE player chooses the next Interceptor rule to resolve. That interceptor rule is resolved by the controlling player making a choice to fire or not to fire (using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire).
Then the ACTIVE player chooses the next Interceptor rule to resolve. That interceptor rule is resolved by the controlling player making a choice to fire or not to fire (using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire).
Rinse and Repeat.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/15 02:17:49
