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We are all well aware that they are all firing, at the same time, at the end of the movement phase. You do not need to repeat it like an automaton. The requirement for sequencing that you keep cutting off of your quote, is that they have to resolve at the same time, not occur at the same time.
In order for them to resolve at the time, the end result would consist of you rolling all of the dice, at one time, for each attack.
The question, is to show us HOW to resolve two shooting attacks, at the same time.
Demonstrate this please, step by step, like that old "explain to someone how to open a jar".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/15 02:18:09
We are all well aware that they are all firing, at the same time, at the end of the movement phase. You do not need to repeat it like an automaton. The requirement for sequencing that you keep cutting off of your quote, is that they have to resolve at the same time, not occur at the same time.
In order for them to resolve at the time, the end result would consist of you rolling all of the dice, at one time, for each attack.
The question, is to show us HOW to resolve two shooting attacks, at the same time.
Demonstrate this please, step by step, like that old "explain to someone how to open a jar".
Are you reading my responses? I just answered your question in my previous post.
A single Interceptor rule resolves a single Interceptor shooting attack.
Interceptor
At the end of the enemy Movement phase, a weapon with the Interceptor special rule can be fired at any one unit that has arrived from Reserve within its range and line of sight. If this rule is used, the weapon cannot be fired in the next turn, but the firing model can shoot a different weapon if it has one.
If you think you have two Interceptor shooting attacks to resolve then you must actually be dealing with two or more Interceptor rules to resolve.
If you have two Interceptor rules to resolve then they will resolve AT THE SAME TIME ("at THE END of the enemy Movement phase") so then you must use the Sequencing rule.
SEQUENCING
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or similar. When this happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first, then the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a game turn, the players roll-off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved in.
So the ACTIVE player dictates the order in which the multiple Interceptor rules resolve.
This is how it works out . . .
Spoiler:
The ACTIVE player chooses the order in which the Interceptor permissions are resolved.
The ACTIVE player choose one Interceptor rule to resolve first. That interceptor rule is resolved by the controlling player making a choice to fire or not to fire (using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire).
Then the ACTIVE player chooses the next Interceptor rule to resolve. That interceptor rule is resolved by the controlling player making a choice to fire or not to fire (using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire).
Then the ACTIVE player chooses the next Interceptor rule to resolve. That interceptor rule is resolved by the controlling player making a choice to fire or not to fire (using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire).
Rinse and Repeat.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2017/05/15 02:40:30
So from the looks of it, you are resolving each shooting attack, one at a time, not at the same time.
Resolving one.
Resolving two.
Resolving three.
They cannot resolve at the same time since you cannot declare two or more shooting attacks at the same time nor can you roll to hit or wound on two units at the same time.
It is explicitly telling you "fired at any one unit".
So you are sequencing, because you feel like it.
Shooting attacks cannot resolve at the same time.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/15 03:14:41
Ceann wrote: So from the looks of it, you are resolving each shooting attack, one at a time, not at the same time.
Resolving one.
Resolving two.
Resolving three.
They cannot resolve at the same time since you cannot declare two or more shooting attacks at the same time nor can you roll to hit or wound on two units at the same time.
So you are sequencing, because you feel like it.
Shooting attacks cannot resolve at the same time.
Are you even reading my responses?
A single Interceptor rule only allows for a single shooting attack.
Interceptor
At the end of the enemy Movement phase, a weapon with the Interceptor special rule can be fired at any one unit that has arrived from Reserve within its range and line of sight. If this rule is used, the weapon cannot be fired in the next turn, but the firing model can shoot a different weapon if it has one.
I can only make a single shooting attack while resolving an Interceptor rule.
So you want me to deal with the case of two Interceptor shooting attacks.
Well, in that case, we are dealing with two Interceptor rules.
When you deal with two Interceptor rules then you are dealing with two rules hammering each other to resolve at the same time ("at THE END of the enemy Movement phase").
The Sequencing rule applies in this case.
SEQUENCING
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or similar. When this happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first, then the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a game turn, the players roll-off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved in.
The ACTIVE player dictates the order in which the multiple Interceptor rules resolve.
One Interceptor rule will completely resolve before the other Interceptor rule resolves in the order of the ACTIVE player's choosing.
I am not sequencing this because I feel like it. We have to sequence it like that because the Sequencing rule tells us to do it that way and we cannot ignore its application in this case.
No shooting attacks are resolving at the same time because the Sequencing rule has necessarily sequenced the order of the two Interceptor rules so that one rule resolves before the other one in an order of the ACTIVE player's choosing.
The Sequencing rule has made it so that the one Interceptor rule completely resolves before the next Interceptor rule resolves.
The shots OCCUR at the same time "at the end of the movement phase". They are all happening at the same "moment in time".
They hammer each other to "fire" at the same time, not to "resolve" at the same time.
The actions of resolution only allow you to explicitly pick one of them.
The sequencing rule is when a particular resolution cannot be determined over another rule.
Ex.
A Skitarii Vanguard charges another Skitarii Vanguard.
They both have Rad Saturation. - Rad-saturation: While a unit is locked in combat with one or more models with this special rule all models in that unit subtract 1 from their Toughness (to a minimum of 1).
Which unit gets -1 Toughness first?
Each instance of the rule has no way to identify itself as resolving first, so they must be sequenced.
Interceptor tells you exactly what you said.
col_impact wrote:
I can only make a single shooting attack while resolving an Interceptor rule.
That is the answer to your question, you can only resolve ONE at a time, they cannot resolve at the same time, the shooting attack rules prevent them from resolving at the same time.
But don't worry, they still fire at the same time.
I hope you finally understand now.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/05/15 03:34:39
Ceann wrote: You can't see the forest for the trees.
The shots OCCUR at the same time "at the end of the movement phase". They are all happening at the same "moment in time".
They hammer each other to "fire" at the same time, not to "resolve" at the same time.
The actions of resolution only allow you to explicitly pick one of them.
The sequencing rule is when a particular resolution cannot be determined over another rule.
Ex.
A Skitarii Vanguard charges another Skitarii Vanguard.
They both have Rad Saturation. - Rad-saturation: While a unit is locked in combat with one or more models with this special rule all models in that unit subtract 1 from their Toughness (to a minimum of 1).
Which unit gets -1 Toughness first?
Each instance of the rule has no way to identify itself as resolving first, so they must be sequenced.
Interceptor tells you exactly what you said.
col_impact wrote:
I can only make a single shooting attack while resolving an Interceptor rule.
That is the answer to your question, you can only resolve ONE at a time, they cannot resolve at the same time, the shooting attack rules prevent them from resolving at the same time.
But don't worry, they still fire at the same time.
I hope you finally understand now.
You are the one who is confused.
I can only make a single shooting attack while resolving an Interceptor rule because the Interceptor rule only permits a single firing.
Read the rule.
Interceptor
At the end of the enemy Movement phase, a weapon with the Interceptor special rule can be fired at any one unit that has arrived from Reserve within its range and line of sight. If this rule is used, the weapon cannot be fired in the next turn, but the firing model can shoot a different weapon if it has one.
"A weapon with the Interceptor special rule can be fired at any one unit that has arrived from Reserve" only permits a single shooting attack.
So if we are dealing with the case of intending to accomplish two Interceptor shooting attacks then we are actually dealing with resolving two Interceptor rules.
As I have pointed out several times already, multiple Interceptor rules hammer each other to try to resolve at the same time ("at THE END of the enemy Movement phase").
The Sequencing rule applies in this case.
SEQUENCING
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or similar. When this happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first, then the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a game turn, the players roll-off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved in.
The ACTIVE player dictates the order in which the multiple Interceptor rules resolve.
Since each Interceptor rule governs a solitary shooting attack, the ordering of the rules by the ACTIVE player is also the ordering of the solitary shooting attacks.
The Sequencing rules prevent the Interceptor rules from resolving at the same time and with that the solitary shooting attacks associated with each Interceptor rule are prevented from resolving at the same time.
This is how it works out . . .
Spoiler:
The ACTIVE player chooses the order in which the Interceptor permissions are resolved.
The ACTIVE player choose one Interceptor rule to resolve first. That interceptor rule is resolved by the controlling player making a choice to fire or not to fire (using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire).
Then the ACTIVE player chooses the next Interceptor rule to resolve. That interceptor rule is resolved by the controlling player making a choice to fire or not to fire (using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire).
Then the ACTIVE player chooses the next Interceptor rule to resolve. That interceptor rule is resolved by the controlling player making a choice to fire or not to fire (using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire).
Rinse and Repeat.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/15 04:00:50
"I can only make a single shooting attack while resolving an Interceptor rule because the Interceptor rule only permits a single firing."
There you have it, so only one resolves at a time.
They all fire at the same time, they resolve one at a time.
Once you CHOOSE a weapon to fire, the other weapons CANNOT fire.
Because they explicitly resolve, one at a time, sequencing does not need to occur.
Considering like 10 different people have tried to explain this to you and you keep going on and on about some other strange method, it would seem you are the one confused.
If you cannot prove that two weapons resolve shooting attacks at the same time, then you have forfeit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/15 04:14:32
Ceann wrote: "I can only make a single shooting attack while resolving an Interceptor rule because the Interceptor rule only permits a single firing."
There you have it, so only one resolves at a time.
They all fire at the same time, they resolve one at a time.
Once you CHOOSE a weapon to fire, the other weapons CANNOT fire.
Because they explicitly resolve, one at a time, sequencing does not need to occur.
Considering like 10 different people have tried to explain this to you and you keep going on and on about some other strange method, it would seem you are the one confused.
If you cannot prove that two weapons resolve shooting attacks at the same time, then you have forfeit.
Your confusion continues.
You keep confusing 'resolve a shot' with 'resolve a rule'.
The Sequencing rule applies to rules.
The Sequencing rule applies when multiple rules are hammering each other to resolve AT THE SAME TIME
All of the multiple Interceptor rules are hammering to resolve AT THE SAME TIME ("at THE END of the enemy Movement phase") so the Sequencing rule applies to dictate an order to their resolution.
You cannot choose to fire an Interceptor weapon until after the order of all of the multiple Interceptor rules has already been dictated the ACTIVE Player.
It is only after the Sequencing rule has been applied to order the multiple permissions that you know which weapon is able to be fired first.
This is how it works out . . .
Spoiler:
The ACTIVE player chooses the order in which the Interceptor permissions are resolved.
The ACTIVE player choose one Interceptor rule to resolve first. That interceptor rule is resolved by the controlling player making a choice to fire or not to fire (using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire).
Then the ACTIVE player chooses the next Interceptor rule to resolve. That interceptor rule is resolved by the controlling player making a choice to fire or not to fire (using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire).
Then the ACTIVE player chooses the next Interceptor rule to resolve. That interceptor rule is resolved by the controlling player making a choice to fire or not to fire (using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire).
Ceann wrote: "I can only make a single shooting attack while resolving an Interceptor rule because the Interceptor rule only permits a single firing."
There you have it, so only one resolves at a time.
They all fire at the same time, they resolve one at a time.
Once you CHOOSE a weapon to fire, the other weapons CANNOT fire.
Because they explicitly resolve, one at a time, sequencing does not need to occur.
Considering like 10 different people have tried to explain this to you and you keep going on and on about some other strange method, it would seem you are the one confused.
If you cannot prove that two weapons resolve shooting attacks at the same time, then you have forfeit.
Your confusion continues.
You keep confusing 'resolve a shot' with 'resolve a rule'.
The Sequencing rule applies to rules.
The Sequencing rule applies when multiple rules are hammering each other to resolve AT THE SAME TIME
All of the multiple Interceptor rules are hammering to resolve AT THE SAME TIME ("at THE END of the enemy Movement phase") so the Sequencing rule applies to dictate an order to their resolution.
You cannot choose to fire an Interceptor weapon until after the order of all of the multiple Interceptor rules has already been dictated the ACTIVE Player.
It is only after the Sequencing rule has been applied to order the multiple permissions that you know which weapon is able to be fired first.
This is how it works out . . .
Spoiler:
The ACTIVE player chooses the order in which the Interceptor permissions are resolved.
The ACTIVE player choose one Interceptor rule to resolve first. That interceptor rule is resolved by the controlling player making a choice to fire or not to fire (using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire).
Then the ACTIVE player chooses the next Interceptor rule to resolve. That interceptor rule is resolved by the controlling player making a choice to fire or not to fire (using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire).
Then the ACTIVE player chooses the next Interceptor rule to resolve. That interceptor rule is resolved by the controlling player making a choice to fire or not to fire (using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire).
Rinse and Repeat.
"I can only make a single shooting attack while resolving an Interceptor rule."
All interceptor rules explicitly identify a model, with a weapon, that is firing, at a unit.
So two of them cannot resolve at the same time, because two shooting attacks cannot resolve at the same time.
Once a rule is being processed you cannot stop and process another.
Once you begin using a single interceptor, then one has been identified to go first.
Sequencing reads the wording of rules to validate that only one will resolve first before a conflict takes place.
Hence, sequencing would see the explicitly identified aforementioned and take no action.
Sequencing only cares that one has been explicitly identified to resolve first, it doesn't care if they are "hammering the same moment".
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/15 05:06:14
"I can only make a single shooting attack while resolving an Interceptor rule."
All interceptor rules explicitly identify a model, with a weapon, that is firing, at a unit.
So two of them cannot resolve at the same time, because two shooting attacks cannot resolve at the same time.
Once a rule is being processed you cannot stop and process another.
Once you begin using a single interceptor, then one has been identified to go first.
Sequencing reads the wording of rules to validate that only one will resolve first before a conflict takes place.
Hence, sequencing would see the explicitly identified aforementioned and take no action.
Sequencing only cares that one has been explicitly identified to resolve first, it doesn't care if they are "hammering the same moment".
You are not reading what I am posting.
All of the multiple Interceptor rules are hammering to resolve AT THE SAME TIME ("at THE END of the enemy Movement phase") so the Sequencing rule applies to dictate an order to their resolution.
You cannot choose to fire an Interceptor weapon until AFTER the order of all of the multiple Interceptor rules has already been dictated the ACTIVE Player.
It is only AFTER the Sequencing rule has been applied to order the multiple permissions that you know which weapon is able to be fired first.
Ceann wrote: Once you begin using a single interceptor, then one has been identified to go first.
The controlling player does not identify which weapon can fire first. Per the Sequencing rule, the ACTIVE player identifies which weapon can fire first.
Them's the rules! You can't ignore the Sequencing rules.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/15 05:38:14
Ceann wrote: That's right we can't ignore the sequencing rules.
Your "at the same time" and "at the end of the movement phase" and hammering hammering hammer timing - do not matter at all.
"When this happens, and the WORDING is not EXPLICIT as to which rule is resolved first, then the player whose turn it is chooses the order."
Sequencing reads the wording.
It understands prior to anything being ordered whether or not the rule in question is explicit.
Interceptor is explicit - model, weapon, unit.
Sequencing doesn't intervene because there will be explicit resolutions.
If there is just one Interceptor rule then there is no sequencing problem.
If there is more than one Interceptor rule then there is a sequencing problem.
The Sequencing rule intervenes because all the multiple Interceptor rules compete to resolve AT THE SAME TIME "at THE END of the enemy Movement phase".
Are you able to point to any other moment in time besides the singular moment ("at THE END of the enemy Movement phase") for the multiple Interceptor rules to resolve?
Since you cannot, then the Sequencing rule mandatorily applies and the ACTIVE player dictates the order in which the multiple Interceptor rules resolve.
This is how it works . . .
Spoiler:
It is the multiple Intercept rules that are being sequenced by the ACTIVE player.
Resolving the Interceptor rule means choosing whether or not to fire when the opportunity to fire occurs.
The multiple instances of "can be fired" "at the end of the enemy Movement phase" from the multiple Interceptor rule need to be sequenced.
Remember, this is not a shooting phase so in order to be able to shoot the controlling player must access one of the Interceptor permissions so that he "can" fire and the controlling player does not get to order his access to those Interceptor permissions.
The ACTIVE player dictates the order in which those permissions are accessed by the controlling player, per the Sequencing rule.
That permission must be completely resolved before moving on to the next Interceptor permission since Interceptor lacks the Overwatch permission to treat this like an out of order Shooting Phase.
Normally, this would result in the controlling player dictating the permissions but since it's not the controlling player's turn then it winds up being the ACTIVE players responsibility to sequence those permissions.
Basically, Interceptor is not Overwatch.
Overwatch has these specific permissions . . .
An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Assault phase) and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on.
Resolve Multiple Overwatch
If a unit declares a charge against two or more target units, all of the target units can fire Overwatch! Resolve each unit’s Overwatch shots separately in an order determined by the firing units’ controlling player.
. . . Interceptor does not have those specific permissions.
There is no permission to lump all of the instances of Interceptor into a single pool for a shooting sequence (as in Overwatch) or for the firing player to dictate the order during the opponent's turn among multiple Intercepting units (as in Multiple Overwatch).
In the absence of the specific allowances afforded Overwatch, Interceptor is resolved in a piecemeal fashion with each instance resolved separably based on the sequence of the ACTIVE players choosing.
Piecemeal fashion
The ACTIVE player chooses the order in which the Interceptor permissions are resolved.
The ACTIVE player choose one Interceptor rule to resolve first. That interceptor rule is resolved by the controlling player making a choice to fire or not to fire (using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire).
Then the ACTIVE player chooses the next Interceptor rule to resolve. That interceptor rule is resolved by the controlling player making a choice to fire or not to fire (using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire).
Then the ACTIVE player chooses the next Interceptor rule to resolve. That interceptor rule is resolved by the controlling player making a choice to fire or not to fire (using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire).
Rinse and Repeat.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/05/15 08:23:28
Ceann, col_impact, you do realise this thread is now 11 pages and probably around 8-9 of those are purely you guys arguing backwards and forwards without any actual progress being made? The same can be said of a lot of the longer threads in YMDC. Here's a serious question for you:
Have either of you ever successfully changed the other person's mind in any of these debates? If not, what makes you think post #138 on the same subject is magically going to make any difference?
There are no new points being brought up here, and haven't been for a very long time. There's a point where it's OK to just agree to disagree.
Ceann wrote: That's right we can't ignore the sequencing rules.
Your "at the same time" and "at the end of the movement phase" and hammering hammering hammer timing - do not matter at all.
"When this happens, and the WORDING is not EXPLICIT as to which rule is resolved first, then the player whose turn it is chooses the order."
Sequencing reads the wording.
It understands prior to anything being ordered whether or not the rule in question is explicit.
Interceptor is explicit - model, weapon, unit.
Sequencing doesn't intervene because there will be explicit resolutions.
If there is just one Interceptor rule then there is no sequencing problem.
If there is more than one Interceptor rule then there is a sequencing problem.
The Sequencing rule intervenes because all the multiple Interceptor rules compete to resolve AT THE SAME TIME "at THE END of the enemy Movement phase".
Are you able to point to any other moment in time besides the singular moment ("at THE END of the enemy Movement phase") for the multiple Interceptor rules to resolve?
Since you cannot, then the Sequencing rule mandatorily applies and the ACTIVE player dictates the order in which the multiple Interceptor rules resolve.
This is how it works . . .
Spoiler:
It is the multiple Intercept rules that are being sequenced by the ACTIVE player.
Resolving the Interceptor rule means choosing whether or not to fire when the opportunity to fire occurs.
The multiple instances of "can be fired" "at the end of the enemy Movement phase" from the multiple Interceptor rule need to be sequenced.
Remember, this is not a shooting phase so in order to be able to shoot the controlling player must access one of the Interceptor permissions so that he "can" fire and the controlling player does not get to order his access to those Interceptor permissions.
The ACTIVE player dictates the order in which those permissions are accessed by the controlling player, per the Sequencing rule.
That permission must be completely resolved before moving on to the next Interceptor permission since Interceptor lacks the Overwatch permission to treat this like an out of order Shooting Phase.
Normally, this would result in the controlling player dictating the permissions but since it's not the controlling player's turn then it winds up being the ACTIVE players responsibility to sequence those permissions.
Basically, Interceptor is not Overwatch.
Overwatch has these specific permissions . . .
An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Assault phase) and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on.
Resolve Multiple Overwatch
If a unit declares a charge against two or more target units, all of the target units can fire Overwatch! Resolve each unit’s Overwatch shots separately in an order determined by the firing units’ controlling player.
. . . Interceptor does not have those specific permissions.
There is no permission to lump all of the instances of Interceptor into a single pool for a shooting sequence (as in Overwatch) or for the firing player to dictate the order during the opponent's turn among multiple Intercepting units (as in Multiple Overwatch).
In the absence of the specific allowances afforded Overwatch, Interceptor is resolved in a piecemeal fashion with each instance resolved separably based on the sequence of the ACTIVE players choosing.
Piecemeal fashion
The ACTIVE player chooses the order in which the Interceptor permissions are resolved.
The ACTIVE player choose one Interceptor rule to resolve first. That interceptor rule is resolved by the controlling player making a choice to fire or not to fire (using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire).
Then the ACTIVE player chooses the next Interceptor rule to resolve. That interceptor rule is resolved by the controlling player making a choice to fire or not to fire (using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire).
Then the ACTIVE player chooses the next Interceptor rule to resolve. That interceptor rule is resolved by the controlling player making a choice to fire or not to fire (using the rules for a shooting attack if the player opts to fire).
Rinse and Repeat.
Back to the classic "a moment in time".
Harry got his finger cut off while he and Tom were chopping fire wood so you have to drive him to the ER but you already finished the first interceptor shot.
In the game it is still "a moment in time, forever timeless, church bells,gentle music, at the end of the enemy movement phase, with all interceptor units firing, bullets frozen mid air".
In real life you resolved the first Interceptor rule hours ago while sitting in the ER with Tom. Resolving rules is a player action and doesn't apply to the time or phase of the game.
They all fire at the same time.
They do not resolve at the same time.
Sequencing is to prevent a player from resolving rules, at the same time in situations where which would resolve first is unclear.
Resolution is a player action taken in which you are performing the process of applying the rules in whatever matter needed to the physical game to complete them. Applying wounds, removing models from the table, pile in moves etc.
These things cannot occur at the same physical time "irl" and have no bearing on "game time" such as "a moment in time" at the magical "at the end of the movement phase".
Hence, to resolve them at the same time you would have to roll "as a player and physical entity " all interceptor hit dice and wound dice at the same time, physically, in order to be attempting to resolve them "at the same time".
The act of shooting forces you to choose a physical action to take first.
You cannot perform all 3, "at the same time".
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/05/15 12:24:57
Slipspace wrote: Ceann, col_impact, you do realise this thread is now 11 pages and probably around 8-9 of those are purely you guys arguing backwards and forwards without any actual progress being made? The same can be said of a lot of the longer threads in YMDC. Here's a serious question for you:
Have either of you ever successfully changed the other person's mind in any of these debates? If not, what makes you think post #138 on the same subject is magically going to make any difference?
There are no new points being brought up here, and haven't been for a very long time. There's a point where it's OK to just agree to disagree.
I think they're just trying for record troll now, this discussion lost all meaning after the first page.
col_impact wrote: "At the end of the enemy movement phase" is a distinct point in time. It's not a duration. There is no 'beginning of the "at the end of the enemy Movement phase"' and there is no 'middle of the "at the end of the enemy Movement phase"' and there is no 'end of the "at the end of the enemy Movement phase"'
"At the end of the enemy movement phase" is a distinct point in time. It's not a duration. "At THE end" is a point in time.
All of the multiple Interceptor rules are to be resolved at the exact same point in time ("at THE end"). Even any shooting process is trying to resolve everything at the exact same ("at THE end"). The Sequencing rule necessarily applies as you cannot have multiple rules to be resolved at the same time.
It doesn't matter that it's happening all at the end of the Movement phase. These can not be resolved without using the shooting rules. The rules for shooting ensure that the different units and different types of weapons in the unit do not fire at the same time which means you are not resolving everything at the, as you put it, EXACT same time. Therefore, sequencing does not apply. You have to look at all the rules that have to be resolved, not merely cherry pick one phrase from one rule, especially when it invokes a series of other rules that already have a process laid out. Ignoring these other rules for your claims means you are not following the rules.
I have admitted nothing.
Being given permission to take an action at the same time.
Is not the same as RESOLVING at the same time.
All units are given permission to perform moving, shooting and assaults at the exact same time every single turn. There is no need to sequence them because they can only resolve one at a time.
The movement phase is a phase. The phase is a division of a turn. A phase is a duration of time, not a point in time. The end of a movement phase is a point in time. The end of a stretch of time is always after the last thing that occurred in the phase.
Multiple things scheduled to happen during the Shooting phase is not going to cause hammering since a phase is a duration of time.
Multiple things scheduled to happen "at THE end of the enemy Movement phase" is going to cause hammering since THE end is a point in time. The Sequencing rule itself provides an example "at the start of the Movement phase" which is just as much a single point in time as "the end of the enemy Movement phase".
You ignore the shooting rules. They give a process where the weapons and the units fire in an order. Different units literally can not fire at the same time without being in violation of the shooting rules. Different types of weapons withing the same unit leterially can not fire at the same time because they would be in violation of the shooting rules. There is nothing in the Interceptor rule that changes the rules for the shooting process. Therefore, since it is literally impossible for different units to fire at the same time, it is literally impossible for the units to resolve their actions at the same time, which makes it literally impossible to invoke sequencing to dicatata the order of the units or the different types of weapons firing.
The burden of proof is on you to show how those multiple Interceptor rules are somehow resolving at different times when they are all being specifically resolved at the exact same time ("at THE END of the enemy Movement phase").
Actually the burden of proof is on you to prove that they are, but since you want proof that they don't.
Stiplulation: "At the end of the enemy Movement phase, a weapon with the Interceptor special rule can be fired at any one unit that has arrived from Reserve within its range and line of sight." We already have permission to fire. So, we only have to day that we are firing. How is this handled?
"The shooting process can be summarized in seven steps, as described below. Each step is explained in greater detail later in this section. Once you've completed the shooting sequence with one of your units, select another and repeat the sequence." (page 30).
The sequence (giving only the headers, not all the listing for it from tha table
"The Shooting Sequence
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot
2. Choose a Target
3. Select a Weapon
4. Roll To Hit
5. Roll To Wound
6. Alocate Wounds & Remove Casualties
7. Select Another Weapon."
From this, you can not have the shooting all happening at the same time. They specify the shooting for different units, and different weapons within the same unit, happening at different times. And, since they tell you to roll all shooting for the same weapon within the same unit all at once, there is no order there either for sequencing to affect - it does not override that permission either. With the resolution of the shooting of different units happening in an order, it is not at the same time - there is a clear order established for this which the sequencing rule states you must not have in order to apply sequencing. If you even accept the malarkey that you can use sequencing to resolve only one rule (one rule on multiple units is still only one rule).
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Rolsheen wrote: You're proved you understand the sequencing rule.
You haven't proved what that has to do with Interceptor.
Your ignoring the fact GW don't house rule their own rules.
No, he hasn't. He hasn't proven that he knows what it means to resolve a rule. If he did, he would not be claiming this can be sequenced.
This isn't the Shooting phase. Where do you see permission to use the Shooting Sequence rules?
From the Interceptor rule telling you that you can fire a weapon, and page 30 detailing the process for firing weapons. Where do you permission to ignore the shooting sequence when dealing with multiple units firing weapons. We already have that permission if there are multiple units with Interceptor
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Roknar wrote: I'm just sitting here wondering how the two of you don't get tired of your endless back and forth in what feels like every other YMDC thread. I would have thought that at some point you'd simply agree to disagree, regardless of who's right, but nope.
col impact never agrees to disagree. I've tried before in other threads but he refuses. You are left with the choice of continuing the argument or walking away. It seems like col impact considers making the other side walk away because neither side can agree as a victory on his part (he has trotted out the "from his silence I can only assume..." type argument in other threads before. If someone isn't going to give him that satisfaction, the only way to stop the argument is for the thread to get locked.
JNAProductions wrote: So where in the Interceptor rules does it tell you how to hit, or wound, or resolve saves?
So Interceptor requires a To Hit Roll and a To Wound roll. Those are rules in the BRB.
I have already indicated that the Interceptor "can be fired" justifies a To Hit Roll and a To Wound Roll.
.
Ah, so it gets to invoke some of the rules for shooting, but notall of the rules for shooting. How con-veeeeeennient!!
No, if the rules for shooting are invoked, all the rules for shooting apply, including there being a process for handling the order in which different units and different types of weapons are fired. You do not have permission to ignore these rules while you go try to cherry pick other rules from the shooting section.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slipspace wrote: Ceann, col_impact, you do realise this thread is now 11 pages and probably around 8-9 of those are purely you guys arguing backwards and forwards without any actual progress being made? The same can be said of a lot of the longer threads in YMDC. Here's a serious question for you:
Have either of you ever successfully changed the other person's mind in any of these debates? If not, what makes you think post #138 on the same subject is magically going to make any difference?
There are no new points being brought up here, and haven't been for a very long time. There's a point where it's OK to just agree to disagree.
Neither one agrees to disagree. I've tried with both before when on opposite sides, and they don't agree. Locking is the only way to finish it.
There, that catches up the last 3 days of posts, with us pretty much being at the same point.
This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2017/05/15 15:34:23
What he is failing to acknowledge is that sequencing cares nothing about time in regards to the game. It only cares that players do not perform rules resolutions at the same time, in real time.
Resolution of rules is done IRL by the players.
The only way to resolve multiple rules at the same time in this case would be to roll all the dice per shooting attack at the same time, which you cannot do.
If we perform one Interceptor resolution at 6 pm and then go have dinner and come back at 8 pm, it is still "at the end of the movement step" according to the game. We resolved the first shot 2 hours ago, we can now do the 2nd shot, the resolution only cares about player time not game time.
Tom,
I agree with you that he cannot agree to disagree, if you attempt to do so he just claims you "gave up and lost". The issue is that fairly resolving the rules isn't his objective, it is to "win" or make you give up.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/15 16:57:03
Harry got his finger cut off while he and Tom were chopping fire wood so you have to drive him to the ER but you already finished the first interceptor shot.
In the game it is still "a moment in time, forever timeless, church bells,gentle music, at the end of the enemy movement phase, with all interceptor units firing, bullets frozen mid air".
In real life you resolved the first Interceptor rule hours ago while sitting in the ER with Tom. Resolving rules is a player action and doesn't apply to the time or phase of the game.
They all fire at the same time.
They do not resolve at the same time.
Sequencing is to prevent a player from resolving rules, at the same time in situations where which would resolve first is unclear.
Resolution is a player action taken in which you are performing the process of applying the rules in whatever matter needed to the physical game to complete them. Applying wounds, removing models from the table, pile in moves etc.
These things cannot occur at the same physical time "irl" and have no bearing on "game time" such as "a moment in time" at the magical "at the end of the movement phase".
Hence, to resolve them at the same time you would have to roll "as a player and physical entity " all interceptor hit dice and wound dice at the same time, physically, in order to be attempting to resolve them "at the same time".
The act of shooting forces you to choose a physical action to take first.
You cannot perform all 3, "at the same time".
Ceann wrote: What he is failing to acknowledge is that sequencing cares nothing about time in regards to the game. It only cares that players do not perform rules resolutions at the same time, in real time.
Resolution of rules is done IRL by the players.
The only way to resolve multiple rules at the same time in this case would be to roll all the dice per shooting attack at the same time, which you cannot do.
If we perform one Interceptor resolution at 6 pm and then go have dinner and come back at 8 pm, it is still "at the end of the movement step" according to the game. We resolved the first shot 2 hours ago, we can now do the 2nd shot, the resolution only cares about player time not game time.
Ceann,
There is a fundamental confusion of terms in your argument where you are confusing 'real life' time versus game time.
The confusion in your argument speaks for itself.
Suffice it to say that the Sequencing rule is dealing with game time and at no point is the game referencing 'real time'.
The BRB makes absolutely no mention 'of real time' except for the occasional places in the BRB where it talks about games taking a few hours.
The Sequencing rule is an entirely in-game mechanic. It's preposterous to argue that the Sequencing rule applies to real time.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/15 21:49:23
JNAProductions wrote: So where in the Interceptor rules does it tell you how to hit, or wound, or resolve saves?
So Interceptor requires a To Hit Roll and a To Wound roll. Those are rules in the BRB.
I have already indicated that the Interceptor "can be fired" justifies a To Hit Roll and a To Wound Roll.
Ah, so it gets to invoke some of the rules for shooting, but notall of the rules for shooting. How con-veeeeeennient!!
No, if the rules for shooting are invoked, all the rules for shooting apply, including there being a process for handling the order in which different units and different types of weapons are fired. You do not have permission to ignore these rules while you go try to cherry pick other rules from the shooting section.
An interesting point. Where does it state in Interceptor to only use part of the Shooting Sequence and not all of it? Do we stop with the To Wound process and leave out Saves? What if a unit has two Interceptor Weapons, how is it determined by Interceptor which fires first when the Shooting Sequence already provides it?
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
An interesting point. Where does it state in Interceptor to only use part of the Shooting Sequence and not all of it? Do we stop with the To Wound process and leave out Saves? What if a unit has two Interceptor Weapons, how is it determined by Interceptor which fires first when the Shooting Sequence already provides it?
Charistoph and doctortom,
This isn't the Shooting phase. Where do you see permission to use the Shooting Sequence rules at all?
How are you even using the Shooting Sequence rules? There is no rule telling you to use the Shooting Sequence rules and you don't need them to resolve an Interceptor shot.
The Shooting Sequence is tied inextricably to the Shooting phase.
Spoiler:
As armies engage, guns thunder and shrapnel rains down from the sky. In a Warhammer 40,000 battle, a player’s army fires in the Shooting phase of his turn. During the Shooting phase, units armed with ranged weapons can fire at the enemy. You can choose any order for your units to shoot, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move on to the next.
The shooting process can be summarised in seven steps, as described below. Each step is explained in greater detail later in this section. Once you’ve completed this shooting sequence with one of your units, select another and repeat the sequence. Once you have completed steps 1 to 7 for each unit in your army that you wish to make a shooting attack, carry on to the Assault phase.
For example . . .
NOMINATE A UNIT TO SHOOT
During the Shooting phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks.
This isn't "during the shooting phase" so the rules do not allow you to even nominate a unit to shoot. The rules for the Shooting Sequence BREAK.
You cannot nominate a unit to shoot since that action is tied to "during the Shooting phase" and this isn't a Shooting phase. This is "at THE END of the enemy Movement phase".
Further, there is no rule that says that firing uses the Shooting Sequence rules. You have made that up. If you think otherwise, then provide the rule that says so.
In fact, you do not need the Shooting Sequence rules at all to resolve Interceptor.
The Interceptor rule already provides a firing model, a weapon, a targeting criteria, and direct rule references for line of sight and range.
So to fire the Interceptor weapon you only need to Roll to Hit (or the equivalent - e.g., template) and Roll to Wound (or the equivalent - e.g., D Weapon Attack Table roll).
The "can be fired" portion of the Interceptor rule justifies a Roll to Hit (pg. 32) and a Roll to Wound (pg. 34), but that is it, no more is required. Each Intercepting rule only permits a single solitary Interceptor shot so nothing justifies the inclusion of the Shooting Sequence rules. There is never more than one Interceptor shooting attack for an Interceptor rule to resolve.
So the Shooting Sequence rules are not required at all.
Which is good, since if you try to use the Shooting Sequence rules for Interceptor then the Shooting Sequence rules BREAK since we are not in a Shooting phase.
Remember, Overwatch has explicit permissions . . .
An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Assault phase) and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on.
Resolve Multiple Overwatch
If a unit declares a charge against two or more target units, all of the target units can fire Overwatch! Resolve each unit’s Overwatch shots separately in an order determined by the firing units’ controlling player.
Interceptor does not have those explicit permissions.
There is no permission to lump all of the instances of Interceptor into a single pool for a shooting sequence (as in Overwatch) or for the firing player to dictate the order during the opponent's turn among multiple Intercepting units (as in Multiple Overwatch).
In the absence of the specific allowances afforded Overwatch, Interceptor is resolved in a piecemeal fashion with each Interceptor rule resolved separably based on the sequence of the ACTIVE players choosing.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/15 22:39:35
Overwatch is a basic rule, it need explicit instructions.
Interceptor is a special rule.
It doesnt care what overwatch has and neither does anyone else, so stop bringing it up. It's a useless giant block of text.
The rules for shooting apply to all models.
Nothing has removed those rules.
Interceptor can use its status as a special rule to access the shooting sequence to fire. Any phase conflicts with the shooting sequence are over ridden.
Col_Impact wrote:
The Interceptor rule already provides a firing model, a weapon, a targeting criteria, and direct rule references for line of sight and range.
So to fire the Interceptor weapon you only need to Roll to Hit (or the equivalent - e.g., template) and Roll to Wound (or the equivalent - e.g., D Weapon Attack Table roll).
The "can be fired" portion of the Interceptor rule justifies a Roll to Hit (pg. 32) and a Roll to Wound (pg. 34), but that is it, no more is required. Each Intercepting rule only permits a single solitary Interceptor shot so nothing justifies the inclusion of the Shooting Sequence rules. There is never more than one Interceptor shooting attack for an Interceptor rule to resolve.
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your UNITSthat is able to shoot but
has yet to do so this turn.
2. Choose a Target. The UNIT it can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.
3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing UNITis equipped with. All models
equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the
target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one
visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in
range, cannot shoot.
6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties. Any Wounds caused by the firing
UNIT must now be allocated, one at a time, to the closest model in the target
unit. A model with a Wound allocated to it can take a saving throw (if it has
one) to avoid being wounded. If a model is reduced to 0 Wounds, it is removed
as a casualty. Wounds are then allocated to the next closest model.
The rules you CLAIM to use, have references back to the firing unit, which the model is in.
There is no rule allowing you to pick out specific parts of a shooting sequence.
Interceptor doesn't say to do this, you assume it does and start making up rules as is your tendency.
Furthermore...
The Start and End of a Phase
During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens at
the start of a particular phase, such as ‘at the start of your Movement phase’ or ‘at the
start of your Shooting phase’. These are always resolved before anything else during that
phase. Likewise, any rule that says an action or event happens at the end of a particular
phase is always resolved after all other actions have been performed during that phase,
before the next phase (if any) starts.
It says NOTHING about "a moment in time" that you use as your argument. They are merely times before and after the actions of a phase have occurred, they are not "a moment in time".
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/05/15 23:59:55
It's "discussions" like this that make me want 8th to come all that much faster...
Also the fact that this debate is going when literally in just a few weeks, none of this will even matter a little bit. It's like whole volumes of text were created for absolutely nothing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/16 02:53:03
Ceann wrote: Overwatch is a basic rule, it need explicit instructions.
Interceptor is a special rule.
It doesnt care what overwatch has and neither does anyone else, so stop bringing it up. It's a useless giant block of text.
The rules for shooting apply to all models.
Nothing has removed those rules.
Interceptor can use its status as a special rule to access the shooting sequence to fire. Any phase conflicts with the shooting sequence are over ridden.
Interceptor doesn't need to access the Shooting Sequence rules. A weapon has already been designated (and along with that a firing model and a firing unit). Each interceptor rule gives permission for a single solitary Interceptor fire. Further, Interceptor has its own targeting criteria and directly references the BRB rules for range and line of sight. The only thing Interceptor needs is a To Hit roll (pg. 32). Any hits will leads automatically to a To Wound roll. And any wounds will also lead automatically to wound allocation. So again, all that Interceptor requires is a To Hit roll.
It's a good thing that Interceptor does not need the Shooting Sequence rules because the Shooting Sequence rules require a Shooting Phase and "at THE END of the enemy Movement phase" is not a Shooting phase and Interceptor lacks the Overwatch permissions to have an out of sequence Shooting phase.
The rules you CLAIM to use, have references back to the firing unit, which the model is in.
This is not a problem. Interceptor has already designated a weapon and along with that a firing model and a firing unit.
Ceann wrote: There is no rule allowing you to pick out specific parts of a shooting sequence.
Interceptor doesn't say to do this, you assume it does and start making up rules as is your tendency.
The To Hit roll is a rule all on its own. Interceptor only requires a To Hit roll. The Interceptor rule "can be fired" directly justifies the To Hit roll.
Nothing in the Interceptor rule justifies accessing the Shooting Sequence rules. It's not a Shooting Phase. The Shooting Sequence rules BREAK if it's not a Shooting phase. In the context of resolving a single Interceptor rule, we are only ever dealing with a solitary shooting attack so there is nothing to sequence.
Why are you insisting on accessing the Shooting Sequence rules when you have no justification for doing so? Are you aware that the Shooting Sequence rules BREAK when you try to use them with Interceptor since it's not a Shooting phase?
The only thing that Interceptor needs is a To Hit roll to be able to complete its permissions.
The Start and End of a Phase
During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens at
the start of a particular phase, such as ‘at the start of your Movement phase’ or ‘at the
start of your Shooting phase’. These are always resolved before anything else during that
phase. Likewise, any rule that says an action or event happens at the end of a particular
phase is always resolved after all other actions have been performed during that phase,
before the next phase (if any) starts.
It says NOTHING about "a moment in time" that you use as your argument. They are merely times before and after the actions of a phase have occurred, they are not "a moment in time".
The Sequencing rule itself explicitly indicates that "at THE START of the Movement phase" and anything similar to that is a singular moment in time. We can come to no other conclusion than that "at THE END of the enemy Movement phase" is similar to "at THE START of the Movement phase". Therefore "at THE END of the enemy Movement phase" is also a singular moment in time.
The rules do not agree with your argument. So unless you are going to start calling the Sequencing rule a liar, it looks like we are going to have to accept what the Sequencing rule says about "at THE END of the enemy Movement phase" - that it's a singular moment in time.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/05/16 07:17:10
lordwellingstone wrote: It's "discussions" like this that make me want 8th to come all that much faster...
Also the fact that this debate is going when literally in just a few weeks, none of this will even matter a little bit. It's like whole volumes of text were created for absolutely nothing.
The sad part is that due to a certain person's esoteric grasp on English, I rather doubt it.
I do wonder if Interceptor will be a standard rule, or just one for a few units like the Hydra and Stalker...
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
lordwellingstone wrote: It's "discussions" like this that make me want 8th to come all that much faster...
Also the fact that this debate is going when literally in just a few weeks, none of this will even matter a little bit. It's like whole volumes of text were created for absolutely nothing.
The sad part is that due to a certain person's esoteric grasp on English, I rather doubt it.
I do wonder if Interceptor will be a standard rule, or just one for a few units like the Hydra and Stalker...
I hope they do, even if it's just vs flyers. That never made any sense to me that a hydra couldn't intercept a flyer once they gave us that rule.
