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 Wyzilla wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:
Space Marines exist to do one thing; wield the utmost physical and martial might that human kind can muster to kill gak for the Emperor. That's it. It's the reason behind their genetic modifications, and for their recruitment from only the strongest of those born on the Imperium's most inhospitable and deadly worlds. They're not some kind of egalitarian peace-keeping force, they're a hidebound fraternity of fanatical killers serving a fascist regime as it tries to avoid total annihilation at the hands of even more ruthless and bloodthirsty enemies. Should Space Marines become Equal Opportunity murderers? No, because that is a policy and a sentiment of our own, significantly gentler time.

There already ARE, what are for all intents and purposes, female Space Marines. They are called Sisters of Battle, and the only thing GW has to do with them is actually support them.

Nitpick, the Imperium isn't fascist. They're feudal and structured like the Holy Roman Empire. The Administratum itself has barely any legal control over anything and many of the organizations within the Imperium are rogue states only loosely held under power. A fascist would have a stroke looking at the Imperium and comprehending how it "works".

 Galas wrote:
Wow, this thread has come the full circle of people bringing politics for both sides of the feminism discussion without reason...

I'll leave this now... but before doing it:
GW, don't make Female Space Marines, make Females models to the races that have them in the fluff!


And talking about RPGs... I saw years ago a roleplay game in a forum where 4 players played as Space Marines. Two were good roleplayers: A Ultramarine and a Space Wolf. The others two... a Grey Knight and a Female Blood Angel.
It only took 10 posts for the Female Blood Angel and the Grey Knight to began to have sex. The others two players tried to carry the game in a productive way but it ended pretty soon. Make of that what you want

I really hate roleplayers like that and endeavor to stamp them out when I find them.

they're not roleplayers they're ERPers and most RPers HATE them.

 Galas wrote:

Spoiler:

This is a typical and totally normal miss conception, if you don't follow the lore of AoS. Stormcast Eternal are magical empowered humans, but humans afterall. Much more than Space Marines.
Personally, I prefer it this way. The "They are woman inside that totally-male shape armour!" is pretty boring. They have done a good job doing a reasonable female armour, very bulky, without the typical boob-shape in the armour. (You know, like they do two balls. Here it jus has space)

It's been covered in this thread but I just want to say it: I hate this design more and more the more I see it. I hate the look of it, I hate the bizarre proportions of it, I hate the lore implications.

This whole 'is female, so smaller, softer, more petite' design philosophy is tiresome in the best of instances, but that torso is so darn tiny it could fit inside a regular stormcast's torso. The fact that it flies so hard in the face of all the existing lore describing women amongst the ranks of the normal, bulky stormcast eternals ultimately makes me more inclined to ignore it rather than everything that came before that contradicts it.

There are examples where people have slapped female heads on stormcast bodies and they look, strangely enough, like women in heavy armour. They look fine, and this is a solution to a non-existent problem.

If GW was to make female space marines I could care less. (They arent going to, and this 'end times' panic is way out of style, thank you.) But if they can't think of a way to do it without making them look like less thoroughly roided out compared to space marines, then I don't want them to do it.

But yeah, plastic sisters! Do it!

Female guardsmen? Fix the kit generally and include female head sculpts only. None of this Leftennant Mira size zero armour gak.

Improve the ratio of female/male parts in the inevitable plastic eldar revamp. Dark eldar are fine.

Literally everything except the sisters can be implemented alongside existing kit revamp projects. In much the same way that GW finally decided Shadowsun's 'Y' shaped nose was because of her gender and include a head with one in each of the revamped Tau kits.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:
I want openly gay spacemarines

They already do.
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Rainbow_Warriors
Ultrasmurf showgirls.

The Rainbow Warriors are none of those things. They're named after the Greenpeace boat and, vicariously, the native american legend that was actually made up by an evangelist trying to convert people.

They exist solely for that image of a sister of battle shooting one. GW downplays them because it really is a one-note joke, and generally not funny enough to outshine the whole cultural genocide thing.

Actually, that model is the first model of a female stormcast eternal that GW has done. All the others models aren't male and female in male-shaped armour. They are all male. But the lore always speaked about male and female stormcast, yes.

But obviously, this comes down to personal preference based in our own reasons!

Perhaps girlyman's mythical super-ultra marines are simply female marines.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Perhaps girlyman's mythical super-ultra marines are simply female marines.

Female Space Marines will make excelent Khorne Berzerkers, with all of the red rage and all...

 Galas wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Perhaps girlyman's mythical super-ultra marines are simply female marines.

Female Space Marines will make excelent Khorne Berzerkers, with all of the red rage and all...

Spoiler:

Sorry I'll go back to my cave now...

Someone beat you to that joke already.

I think I understand it, but he talks to fast and with a strong accent to me to understand.

Can you transcript what he says, please? (I'm not saying this to make a joke on you or anything)

 Galas wrote:
I think I understand it, but he talks to fast and with a strong accent to me to understand.

Can you transcript what he says, please? (I'm not saying this to make a joke on you or anything)

Zoranthebear aka Leman Russ wrote:To the Sisters of Battle:

"Daemons of Khorne are goin' to eat ya out like ice cream sandwiches once you're Red Rage begins"

Ok, thats pretty brutal

I want canonical Female Marines just to see the response from insecure manchildren on the Internet.
I want to be able to hear the frothing neckbeard shrieks of "SJW CANCER" and "GENETICALLY WEAKER" and aggressively unfunny transphobic "maybe the Emperor needs SRS"/"attack helicopter meme" stuff from my home.

And, hey, maybe it might let the hobby take a couple inching baby steps toward being able to talk about how it's a little fething weird that the only female models in the Imperium are -4 Str and have to strip down and get spanked when they've been naughty, and maybe that actually ISN'T "super cool so just shut up about it everything's perfect" just because it has an in-universe explanation.

That and frankly it makes sense. If Guilliman's gonna try to make Space Marines 2.0, doubling the pool of available candidates by fixing daddy's little FUBAR with chromosomes is a good place to start.

The only fluff I have read that makes any sense for NO GIRLS ALLOWED..

Is that the Primarchs are essentially clones of the Emperor himself, then the marines are augmented using the Genetic material of their Primarch. With the Emperor being Male it is a chromosome issue rather than a sexist one..

But this itself wasn't a GW expiation

mynamelegend wrote:
it's a little fething weird that the only female models in the Imperium are -4 Str and have to strip down and get spanked when they've been naughty, and maybe that actually ISN'T "super cool so just shut up about it everything's perfect"

See, this would seem less like SJW cancer if it had anything to do with anything.

 Luciferian wrote:

See, this would seem less like SJW cancer if it had anything to do with anything.

Alright, so the usual response to "We'd like female Space Marines" is "Play Sisters of Battle".
Sisters of Battle are physically inferior to Space Marines, and have an entire unit specifically created to be fetish fuel and allow for nudity and BDSM-themed pain and humiliation of exclusively female characters.
"Wanna be a girl marine? Sure, just be weaker in every way and I hope you enjoy being spanked while naked in public" is actually not particularly cool.

Though honestly, between being SJW Cancer that doesn't have "anything to do with anything" and Transphobic Douche that doesn't have "anything to do with anything", I'll pick being the cancer every time.

(In case you didn't get it, I'm saying that the "lol maybe the Emperor is trans, being trans is a joke" bs was very, very uncool behavior.)

mynamelegend wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:

See, this would seem less like SJW cancer if it had anything to do with anything.

Alright, so the usual response to "We'd like female Space Marines" is "Play Sisters of Battle".
Sisters of Battle are physically inferior to Space Marines, and have an entire unit specifically created to be fetish fuel and allow for nudity and BDSM-themed pain and humiliation of exclusively female characters.
"Wanna be a girl marine? Sure, just be weaker in every way and I hope you enjoy being spanked while naked in public" is actually not particularly cool.

Though honestly, between being SJW Cancer that doesn't have "anything to do with anything" and Transphobic Douche that doesn't have "anything to do with anything", I'll pick being the cancer every time.

You are kinda underselling the Sisters of Battle here. The fact that they're human and are often called upon to purge heretic/renegade astartes says loads about their capabilities that few other branches of the Imperial military are expected to handle, short of other elite forces like Scions or other loyalist marines. Also, it seems kind of short-sighted to call Repentia simply fetish fuel, given that the whole thing about Sisters of Battle is their faith and the Repentia is another aspect of that, with it being focused on penance. You can project all your weird sexual ideas onto them if you like, but that's not what they're about. Of course it's dialed up to 11 as usual in 40k but that's the setting. They, unlike many other Imperial factions, repeatedly show in the fluff their purity and power against chaos from being the least affected, or sometimes semi-immunity from chaos afflictions and attacks that allow them to act as a bulwark for Imperial forces to counter-attack. They are certainly not weak at all compared to marines.

I mean, can we start first with the model lines that can have female options and get plastic sisters of battle before we jump the shark and go straight to retconning in female marines?

So you are stating, for the record, that you absolutely do not see how designing toys for adolescent boys, settling on "the girls should be forced to get naked because they've been bad girls, and have their sergeant unit whip them!", could in any way be construed in a sexual manner? That, in fact, anyone who points out that this is an extremely obviously sexual unit is the one who has a problem?

Yeah, sure, why not. For what it's worth, if you are actually serious in stating this, as opposed to an argument tactic, I believe you're being actively disingenuous or so naive that I can only assume you were chem-gelded at some point.

mynamelegend wrote:

Alright, so the usual response to "We'd like female Space Marines" is "Play Sisters of Battle".
Sisters of Battle are physically inferior to Space Marines, and have an entire unit specifically created to be fetish fuel and allow for nudity and BDSM-themed pain and humiliation of exclusively female characters.
"Wanna be a girl marine? Sure, just be weaker in every way and I hope you enjoy being spanked while naked in public" is actually not particularly cool.

Though honestly, between being SJW Cancer that doesn't have "anything to do with anything" and Transphobic Douche that doesn't have "anything to do with anything", I'll pick being the cancer every time.

(In case you didn't get it, I'm saying that the "lol maybe the Emperor is trans, being trans is a joke" bs was very, very uncool behavior.)

Did I say that being trans is a joke? No, I didn't. I wasn't even making a joke. I was making a snide comment about the inevitable devolution of this kind of discussion - which you have rapidly accelerated since you've arrived.

Alas, yours is a rhetoric I know too well, along with its incendiary and hyperbolic nature.

The only question I have, is who got to you since you wrote this:

mynamelegend wrote:
I was entering here hoping to see some cool ork models and it took until the third page for the OP to get around to it?
And he was actively afraid to post the pics?
Something is terribly wrong here, and it's not the subject of his work.

As atrocious as the nazis' actions were, and as atrocious as any other atrocity was (crusades, terror attacks, occupations, wars, what have you), censoring art and censoring the artist is always worth fighting against. Knee-jerk fear of the symbol just enhances the fear of what it symbolizes.

If a man is offended by art, that is his full and complete right.
But the artist's right is to create that offensive material. It has to be. In western society, in the modern world, freedom of speech and expression is seen as a basic human right.
If art is always safe, and never makes you think, is it art?
If you're telling the OP "THIS symbol is fine, and THIS one isn't", you are trying to censor him based on your own preferences and thoughts. It's your right to give your opinion of course, but to state it as a universal "thou must not" is simply not done.

It is the difference between taking offense at pictures of the Prophet Muhammed, and telling you that it should be ILLEGAL to portray the prophet.

If you want to make nazi orks, or jihad orks, or crusade orks, or muhammed orks, or orks pissing on a crucified Jesus, or god-knows-what-else kind of orky offensive weirdness you can think up? Go ahead. People might be offended, and that's their choice. But the creation of the object must be yours.

I don't see how "the Sisters of Battle are frankly kinda sexist" and "you should be allowed to be offended at things without calling for them to be illegal or disallowing them from being talked about" are ideologically incompatible.

Though, of course, if I called for Sisters of Battle to be banned for sale, or for GW to be censured for it, or even for people to stop buying and playing them, that would be quite a change from my old stance.

I stand by what I said.
People might be offended, and that's their choice. I am offended at your transphobic joke, and I am offended that the only female power armor models in Warhammer are also "genetically inferior" sex dolls. But the creation of that joke and the current incarnation of the Sisters of Battle are respectively yours, and Games Workshop's. I'm not telling you to not make such jokes, I'm saying that they are uncool. I'm not telling Games Workshop to not make female Space Marines either, for that matter (you'll notice that that is, in fact, the OTHER camp doing that). Nor am I ordering them to do so because it's the only possible path to being progressive. I'm saying I would be quite happy with seeing it.

And yes, I'm saying that my happiness would in no small part come from seeing the same branch of people that decry "SJWs" and "PC culture" get massively, unironically offended at them.

mynamelegend wrote:
So you are stating, for the record, that you absolutely do not see how designing toys for adolescent boys, settling on "the girls should be forced to get naked because they've been bad girls, and have their sergeant unit whip them!", could in any way be construed in a sexual manner? That, in fact, anyone who points out that this is an extremely obviously sexual unit is the one who has a problem?

Yeah, sure, why not. For what it's worth, if you are actually serious in stating this, as opposed to an argument tactic, I believe you're being actively disingenuous or so naive that I can only assume you were chem-gelded at some point.

Within the context of 40K, no, and it seems that once again you deliberately choose to ignore that fact. Just like I don't see Daemonettes or Fiends and think "GW must be using the exposed boobs on these models to sell sex to kids!". It's overly reductive and honestly seems like an incredibly narrow-minded view. Repentia are functionally a female 40K version of the Flagellants from Fantasy, hell there's 40K arco-flagellants that are the almost same, just without the free will but almost the same amount of nudity and instead of needing to be whipped by a Mistress they pretty much whip themselves. Do you get all hot and bothered seeing them?

mynamelegend wrote:
I don't see how "the Sisters of Battle are frankly kinda sexist" and "you should be allowed to be offended at things without calling for them to be illegal or disallowing them from being talked about" are ideologically incompatible.

Though, of course, if I called for Sisters of Battle to be banned for sale, or for GW to be censured for it, or even for people to stop buying and playing them, that would be quite a change from my old stance.

I stand by what I said.
People might be offended, and that's their choice. I am offended at your transphobic joke, and I am offended that the only female power armor models in Warhammer are also "genetically inferior" sex dolls. But the creation of that joke and the current incarnation of the Sisters of Battle are respectively yours, and Games Workshop's. I'm not telling you to not make such jokes, I'm saying that they are uncool. I'm not telling Games Workshop to not make female Space Marines either, for that matter (you'll notice that that is, in fact, the OTHER camp doing that). Nor am I ordering them to do so because it's the only possible path to being progressive. I'm saying I would be quite happy with seeing it.

And yes, I'm saying that my happiness would in no small part come from seeing the same branch of people that decry "SJWs" and "PC culture" get massively, unironically offended at them.

I called this with my first post in this thread. You openly admit that your motivations are mainly punitive - that is, regardless of its merit, you want something to happen merely to punish those who don't share your political views. If your aims were to bring awareness to the fact that the representation of the SoB is, in your opinion, sexist, you could have done that in a well-reasoned and respectful way. Instead, you began straight away by spewing rhetoric and flame baiting with cliched stereotypes and personal attacks. Because, exactly as I said, you've found ground to wage cultural warfare on and use something that other people enjoy as a wedge issue. That in itself is your sole purpose for being here at this very moment. It certainly isn't to engage in any kind of debate or discussion, otherwise you wouldn't automatically preclude any dissenting opinion from being anything other than the insecure wailing of neckbeards and man-children.

I already know that there will be no worthwhile debate with you, and you will continue to cherry pick anything which serves your purposes while descrying anything that does not as somehow invalid on the grounds of bigotry or injustice, no matter its factual or textual veracity. And you will do it all in the name of your personal politics, with absolutely no regard for anything else.

mynamelegend wrote:
So you are stating, for the record, that you absolutely do not see how designing toys for adolescent boys, settling on "the girls should be forced to get naked because they've been bad girls, and have their sergeant unit whip them!", could in any way be construed in a sexual manner? That, in fact, anyone who points out that this is an extremely obviously sexual unit is the one who has a problem?

Yeah, sure, why not. For what it's worth, if you are actually serious in stating this, as opposed to an argument tactic, I believe you're being actively disingenuous or so naive that I can only assume you were chem-gelded at some point.

Here's and idea, if you don't want to be completely alone by alienating everyone who might possibly be on your side

STOP.

TALKING.

GAK.

ABOUT.

SOB.

Repentia or no repentia the vast majority of people who share even some of your opinions are likely favorable to SoB and pissing them off is not going to win you any support.

 Sensual_T_Rex wrote:
Like I said in the beginning there's no point in pandering to the professionally offended. No matter what you do they'll find fault in it and complain.

That's the Marxist dialectic at work

"Repentia are sexualized"



Said nobody who didn't have a massive S&M fetish.

Yeah, that gak creeps me out, man. It's actually pretty pathological and repulsive. But hey, what do I know, I must either be a neckbeard or eunuch for holding that opinion

mynamelegend wrote:
So you are stating, for the record, that you absolutely do not see how designing toys for adolescent boys, settling on "the girls should be forced to get naked because they've been bad girls, and have their sergeant unit whip them!", could in any way be construed in a sexual manner? That, in fact, anyone who points out that this is an extremely obviously sexual unit is the one who has a problem?

Yeah, sure, why not. For what it's worth, if you are actually serious in stating this, as opposed to an argument tactic, I believe you're being actively disingenuous or so naive that I can only assume you were chem-gelded at some point.

Jesus christ, I don't think I have ever seen anyone project this hard before. They're religious fanatics dialed up to an insane degree. Yeah, they wear less than the other Sisters, but Catachans wear less than your average Guardsman. Not all female nudity (and this isn't even nudity) is sexualised, and these sure as hell aren't. They're creepy. But yeah, they happen to have a female body. How shameful.

Its the typical Sjw's tactic anyone that disagrees must be shamed into compliance so it doesn't matter how logical or reasoned your arguments you committed wrong think so they think its okay to use any insult they like.

No one here objects to SoB female guard, or female inquisition members its not a case of eww no girls allowed.

Female marines make no sense in the setting it goes against the lore simple as that.

If all a person has is insults then they have no real argument.

I disagree with female Space Marines, it would involve a major retcon of the fluff of Space Marines to include them (which is that ONLY EVER MALES can be Space Marines). I think in the past its been chalked up to needing the male testosterone levels or the Y chromosome or some such.


The other side being, female space marines are utterly pointless. There are two ways models could go. Either, we have the utterly rediculous boob-plate space marines, in which case, these appeal to a small minority of overly sexual nerds who just want boobs in their army for no reason other than boobs... or they don't have boob-plate in which case they look exactly like male Space Marines. In which case the other difference is fluff. And, with Space Marines being pretty much genderless anyway, given that they have zero sexual urges, entirely focused on warfare, whether they are male or female is entirely irrelevant. So, why retcon 30 years of fluff for the sake of saying your models are female just because?

I do get the sexism arguments, but its pedantic, and nit-picky. At the end of the day its chunks of plastic on a table, and if you have to be so nit-picky that you neeeedddd female representation within a small society of trained killer supersoldiers, that's up to you. But I don't see any need for it.



Instead, how about proper female guard models, SoB, female Eldar, female Tau, female Inqusition models? These would at least look different and not totally crash the fluff of the biggest faction in the game.

Yeah they've brought back genestealer cults and given us mechanicum so its about time SoB got a new release and plastic sisters are perfectly possible with current tech.

And female guardsmen would just be a matter of heads as carapace would work for both genders as is.

mynamelegend wrote:
So you are stating, for the record, that you absolutely do not see how designing toys for adolescent boys, settling on "the girls should be forced to get naked because they've been bad girls, and have their sergeant unit whip them!", could in any way be construed in a sexual manner? That, in fact, anyone who points out that this is an extremely obviously sexual unit is the one who has a problem?

Yeah, sure, why not. For what it's worth, if you are actually serious in stating this, as opposed to an argument tactic, I believe you're being actively disingenuous or so naive that I can only assume you were chem-gelded at some point.

1. They are not designed for adolescent boys. GW doesn't care if your male, female, both, trans, neither or Wookie, as long as you pay the bills. It just so happens to appeal to a certain brand of customer, who are stereotyped as being fat, greasy, sweaty and socially awkward (none of which really appeal to mainstream female demographics).

2. Sure, there could be construed a sexual element to them, however, the key thing is there is not intended to be any sexual modicum of the unit, they aren't repenting from sinful pre-marital sex or the female form. In this case, you are the only one sexualising them which is what you are arguing against. The fact no one else is looking at repentia and even considering that they are sexual means that the only one here sexualising bits of plastic is you.

As funny as female SM would be, the odds of GW not ing it up are so small it's not worth it.

@Ashiraya

I completly agree with that. Space Marine women can be intertaining, bring a lot of positive elements to the game in terms of aesthetic and character creation and, if integrated correctly, without sacrificing any elements of the current Space Marines (yes, even without sacrificing their overly macho and homoerotic undertone). I just don't trust GW authors to be capable of pulling it off. Very few writters have experience in that sort of thing neither do many readers like Luciferian. I'd rather have Space Marines as they are instead of having a poor man's version of both Space Marines women.