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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/05/10 22:38:11
Subject: End times - female SM?
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Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle
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epronovost wrote: Sgt_Smudge wrote: There we are. You're applying modern values and expectations to a setting that's more in common with the middle ages than our own.
Not to mention that you're using a stereotype of modern times to justify something thousands of years in the future.
Not quite what I'd call evidence.
Space Marines are a modern creation by modern men for consomption by modern persons as entertainment. They aren't a social thought experiment on gender stereotype in the far future. They are the exact opposite. They are the product of our vision of what a perfect monastic soldier should be and look like in a science fanstasy setting. Its a typical power fantasy. There is no denying it. Space marine are strongly gendered and explicitly so.
All of Warhammer is Macho as hell. Being effeminate won't help when that Tyranid just wants to eat your face.
You can also have a very stong friendship and call it love. Both are just as likely and possible depending on your interpretation of some cues, inuendo and events.
The word "Love" in the English language is far too limiting and no, both are not as likely to happen. Keep your homoerotic headcanon at home.
Sgt_Smudge wrote:
With the amount of drugs they'd be pumped up with? All of them look like bodybuilders - no graces, just sheer muscle. There's pictures that support that notion - it's not "based on nothing concrete". It's canon. That's what a Space Marines looks like not because he's male, but because of the sheer testosterone in his system. If you're insinuating otherwise, could you show me a picture of a Space Marine out of armour who doesn't look like a weightlifter? I see them looking far more like Hafthor Bjornsson than Bruce Lee.
Most images in my opinion, especially those of scouts (who are the most useful since its easier to see their mensuration) makes them look more like Heavy or Welterweight boxers or martial artists. Several of those at the bottom of this entry on Wikia are good example of this. Note the two Raven Guards with the snipers, the Space Wolf and the Imperial Fist at the top. They are too slim to be proper bodybuilder and to lean and tall to be good weightlifters, but have the proper appearence to be tough soldiers. I can easily imagine a tough women with similar mensuration and she would still look feminine.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Scout_Marines
You seem to forget that Astartes are 8 feet tall. Their muscle mass is proportioned to their height.
Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Why is having a difference between men and women an issue that you wish to distinguish? They're both superhumans hopped up on god knows how many drugs and hormones - why would they look any different?
Why don't you think women shouldn't look like massive bodybuilders, like the normal marines look like?
Why don't you want them to be different? Does the idea of a women super soldier, stronger than any men displeases you particularly?
I already mention why its interesting to a have Space Marine women, because they bring a greater aesthetic diversity. I like to see men and women in a model army because they bring a bit of variety and a slight touch of originality to the hole.
Since I personnaly think that Marines aren't forced to look like bodybuilders (even if some will look like so) i think this question answers itself. Since God knows how many drugs and hormones are pumped into them, we don't know how they would look like either. They could remain very feminine for all we know since, even amongst women bodybuilders, many still look feminine. It could even make them look even more feminine for all we know.
Greater aesthetic diversity ha. Good meme. They pump these kids full of Testosterone before they hit puberty. You'd still get ordinary Astartes.
Sgt_Smudge wrote:
If they're weaker, then why are they accepted in? If they can't match the basic standard of a Space Marine, then they're not up to snuff. They'd make a brilliant SoB or Guardwoman though.
What about male marines who are a little bit weaker but nimbler than their brethren? Are they still inducted, despite not meeting the requirement? Is there a different standard for gender? Why?
Weaker in terms of physical might doesn't mean worse in combat in general. Strength is one of the many, many factor that makes a good solider and in a form of warfare mostly done at range with guns and canons, it's not even a vital one either.
Astartes are shock troopers. They aren't shooting the enemy more than they are punching them.
There is already weaker, but nimbler marines. Abbadon was much stronger than Loken who was himself stronger than Lucius who happens to be better swordsmen than both of them becasue he's more nimble and agile.
Lucius is a better swordsman because he has technique. You think someone so nimble and agile would get punched in the nose like a chump? Its the same thing for all of them. Why would you think the requirements to become a Space Marine involve strength test?
They are looking for the cream of the crop. If that means weeding out the 99 to get that juicy 100th candidate, so be it.
Why would it be the only test or the most important one? If so, girls will outperform boys on average since between the age of 10 and 14 years old (the prime age of recruitment for Space Marines), girls are taller, heavier and stronger than boys on average. The situation reverse itself around the age of 16-18 years old, but at that point, Marines are already on the battlefield serving in Scout units. Nowhere do I mention that women would have different test than men, simply that most of them might be in the lower tier within their chapter in terms of physical strength, but that this apparent weakness can be compensated by other qualities much like Space Marine men who are in the same situation.
[insert obligatory "Maybe it's because they need a Y-Chromosome" here]
Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Yes, but all Space Marines look "ultra-butch". Seriously, find one that doesn't. Just one Marine who doesn't look like a bodybuilder. Of course there's variety, but not an entirely new build.
There's my reasoning for FeMarines looking like bodybuilders - because ALL Space Marines do.
There's my reasoning, Space Marines women would look like women because women bodybuilder, Heavyweight and Welterweight boxers, or even soldier women look like women not like men at all. The difference in term of aesthetic is obvious. Even if I was to admit all Space Marines look like bodybuilders (I think they look like strong soldiers, but not like bodybuilders), your argument for them being identical to men to point where the difference is moot is a bit strange. Plus, considering that we are talking about changing the apperance of (some) Space Marines saying that they all look the same, thus should keep on looking the same is a fallacious appeal to tradition.
Appeal to tradition  Pump a bunch of pre-pubescent kids full of Testosterone and they'll all start to look alike.
It doesn't make any sense for them to look the same if we make them different.
We aren't making them differently. You said that yourself.
NuMarines can be both for all I care. They'll turn into Spartans from the Halo franchise minus the kidnappings.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/10 22:50:59
H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
Ruin- It's official, we've ran out of things to talk about on Dakka. Close the site. We're done.
mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/05/10 22:48:31
Subject: End times - female SM?
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Hallowed Canoness
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The only marines that should still be all-ale are the dark angels because it fits their theme.
Also more female models for IG, Eldars, Tau, and some plastic Sisters of Battle.
I would have added some male SoB just to make the whatabouters shut up but really, if you open the current Sisters of Battle codex, the only special character there is already male so there is no need…
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"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/05/10 22:57:25
Subject: End times - female SM?
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Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle
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Epronovost, it's kind of hard for me to understand your position.
I think we generally agree on the thematic elements that make Space Marines what they are. In my opinion, they're an amalgam of hyper-chauvinistic martial cultures through history, but especially from Greco-Roman and Feudal periods. Their portrayal is both reverent of such cultures at times, and a parody of it at others. You also can't forget the monastic elements of devotion, spiritual discipline and asexuality (nor are Sisters of Battle complete without their characterization as nuns).
Now, during the periods Space Marines draw their inspiration from (and more or less through all of Western history to this day) the vast majority of warriors and combatants were men, if only because brute physical strength was their most commonly sought after characteristic. As you have said yourself, Space Marines are in essence an exploration of these traditionally masculine cultures and traits.
You have also said that is what you find to be interesting about Space Marines, and that a severe deviation from this would distort their character. So, assuming that the in-universe representation of female Space Marines would not violate those principles, and would be somewhere in between what Sgt Smudge and you are discussing - that is to say, they would be functionally excellent warriors if not necessarily among the physically strongest, but their culture would be no different from that already shared between male Space Marines - then what would really differentiate them as female except for perhaps slight differences in body structure? And why would that be interesting or add to the trope?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/05/10 23:43:12
Subject: End times - female SM?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Tactical_Spam wrote:
All of Warhammer is Macho as hell. Being effeminate won't help when that Tyranid just wants to eat your face.
Actualy being macho won't help at all. Placing high value stoicism, strength, brashness and honor will not help you survive and triumph. There somthing called called temperance. Not being macho doesn't mean being feminine. Being macho isn't exclusive to men either. Many women are macho.
Tactical_Spam wrote:
The word "Love" in the English language is far too limiting and no, both are not as likely to happen. Keep your homoerotic headcanon at home.
I'm not the one who put idealise sculpted abs on Blood Angels (and Minotaurs), made Loken comment on how this gut and this guy were so beautiful, Salamanders of the 3rd company wonder if the late captain Ka'dai and the apothecary were more than just Brothers, etc. I'm sorry, but it seems to be a trait shared by some. Feel free to ignore it, but it leaves me to wonder...
Tactical_Spam wrote:
You seem to forget that Astartes are 8 feet tall. Their muscle mass is proportioned to their height.
No, I didn't since it would be the same thing for Space Marine women. They would be awfully tall and heavy compared to a normal men, but they would have the general apperance of a soldier women (only 20% bigger).
Tactical_Spam wrote:
Greater aesthetic diversity ha. Good meme. They pump these kids full of Testosterone before they hit puberty. You'd still get ordinary Astartes.
We don't know if they are pump full of testosterone. In fact pumping them full of testosterone would make them look like women due to little phenomenon called fat/muscle conversion. Gaining quickly mass by converting fat into muscle causes cell to release estrogen, a women's sexual hormones. They probably use something different. Then again, Space Marine creation is so full of pseudo-scientific bs that its not worth going there and try to make sense out of it. Space Marines look like men because the guy in charge of making drawings of them was told to make them look like men. If he's told to make them look like women they will.
Tactical_Spam wrote:
Astartes are shock troopers. They aren't shooting the enemy more than they are punching them.
They do punch a lot of enemies, but they shoot a lot too. In fact they mostly mop up resistence in close combat. That's why the basic Space Marine, the tactical marine, has a rifle as main weapon and not a sword (some exception applies of course, with some Chapters being really good in close combat, while other favor long range engagement)
Tactical_Spam wrote:
Lucius is a better swordsman because he has technique. You think someone so nimble and agile would get punched in the nose like a chump?
Everyone can loose a sparring match, that doesn't make him a chump. In fact, he is still widely considered, even by Loken, as one of the most brilliant Space Marine out there.
Tactical_Spam wrote:
Appeal to tradition  Pump a bunch of pre-pubescent kids full of Testosterone and they'll all start to look alike.
We aren't making them differently. You said that yourself.
We are not making them different in a fundamental level (AKA they will still be enhance near perfect warriors organise in various Chapter of closely knit soldiers, with a strong overtone of macho and homoerotism.). What's interesting in Space Marine remains (except if you find their gender exclusivity their main selling point, in that case we are changing them indeed). We are making aethetically different, but still simillar.
Tactical_Spam wrote:
NuMarines can be both for all I care. They'll turn into Spartans from the Halo franchise minus the kidnappings.
Does that mean that I lost my time answering you? Automatically Appended Next Post: Luciferian wrote:Epronovost, it's kind of hard for me to understand your position.
I think we generally agree on the thematic elements that make Space Marines what they are. In my opinion, they're an amalgam of hyper-chauvinistic martial cultures through history, but especially from Greco-Roman and Feudal periods. Their portrayal is both reverent of such cultures at times, and a parody of it at others. You also can't forget the monastic elements of devotion, spiritual discipline and asexuality (nor are Sisters of Battle complete without their characterization as nuns).
Now, during the periods Space Marines draw their inspiration from (and more or less through all of Western history to this day) the vast majority of warriors and combatants were men, if only because brute physical strength was their most commonly sought after characteristic. As you have said yourself, Space Marines are in essence an exploration of these traditionally masculine cultures and traits.
You have also said that is what you find to be interesting about Space Marines, and that a severe deviation from this would distort their character. So, assuming that the in-universe representation of female Space Marines would not violate those principles, and would be somewhere in between what Sgt Smudge and you are discussing - that is to say, they would be functionally excellent warriors if not necessarily among the physically strongest, but their culture would be no different from that already shared between male Space Marines - then what would really differentiate them as female except for perhaps slight differences in body structure? And why would that be interesting or add to the trope?
I'll try.
1) It provides more diversity in terms of aesthetic while still remaining in the same mold. This is important for me because it allows me to better personnalise my squads and individual models.
2) It opens the way to interesting super warrior culture trope for homemade Chapters otherwise closed like amazon warriors for example or the very current SDF forces of Rojava.
3) It gives a center stage to a rarely seen and used trope: that of the "Vasquez", the macho women. Plus, the "Vasquez" can come in a lot of variations, some that we seldom see on a regular basis and other, because of the relative rarity of the trope, might still be left to create. I find that very interesting.
4) Should that be your cup of tea, it can bring a nice element of change to the tradition of a major faction and create a lot of interesting emotional confrontations and reactions within a Chapter. Of course this is purely optionnal.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/10 23:59:26
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/05/11 00:08:12
Subject: Re:End times - female SM?
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Douglas Bader
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It always amuses me to see people stubbornly insisting that the process of making space marines, which is blatant "a space wizard did it" technobabble with no connection to reality, would be unrealistic if it could be applied to women. The difference between a human male and a human female is far, far less than the difference between a human male and a space marine. And if your process is essentially "throw out everything about the body you started with, and replace it with a space marine" then there's no inherent realism problem with applying that same process to women.
It also amuses me to see people completely fail to understand how power armor works. The whole point of power armor is that the strength of the wearer is completely irrelevant. The armor is far stronger than the person inside it, and all the user's movements are doing is telling the armor how to move. You aren't contributing your own strength to a punch, you're making a punching motion that commands the armor to do the same and deliver the punch for you. The only difference between wearing power armor and pressing the "punch" button on a video game controller is that the power armor's movements are far faster and more intuitive because of the superior control interface. Starship Troopers (you know, the book that invented GW's concept of space marines) got it right, a disabled suit of power armor is a metal tomb for the wearer because no matter how strong you are you aren't going to match the strength of the armor's own systems.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/11 00:13:31
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/05/11 00:20:42
Subject: End times - female SM?
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
Vigo. Spain.
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Stormcast Eternals did it right. You power comes by magic, based in your strenght of soul and power of will, so 0 arguments about females being less capable than men.
But as I said, to me the in-universe reason for Space Marines being only male has 0 weight really. It is what it is, and if they want they can change it. But should they? Personally, to me, It doesn't worth it, having much more things they can do first to give a proper and better female representation in the model line.
Will I be pissed if they did it? Not really, at least not for the Space Marine side. But I will be pissed for the Sister of Battle side. It will be another form of neglecting them, just like Sisters of Silence popping out of nowhere.
Damm, you 30k! Go back to the Horus Heresy series and leave my 40k alone!
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/11 00:21:47
Crimson Devil wrote:
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote:Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/05/11 00:42:44
Subject: End times - female SM?
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Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle
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epronovost wrote:
I'll try.
1) It provides more diversity in terms of aesthetic while still remaining in the same mold. This is important for me because it allows me to better personnalise my squads and individual models.
2) It opens the way to interesting super warrior culture trope for homemade Chapters otherwise closed like amazon warriors for example or the very current SDF forces of Rojava.
3) It gives a center stage to a rarely seen and used trope: that of the "Vasquez", the macho women. Plus, the "Vasquez" can come in a lot of variations, some that we seldom see on a regular basis and other, because of the relative rarity of the trope, might still be left to create. I find that very interesting.
4) Should that be your cup of tea, it can bring a nice element of change to the tradition of a major faction and create a lot of interesting emotional confrontations and reactions within a Chapter. Of course this is purely optionnal.
Well, I'd consider your first two reasons to be already possible seeing that they deal with conversions and homebrew chapters. I've seen way  tier ideas for homebrew chapters than ones that include females, though that doesn't say much when you consider what some people come up with.
I do enjoy the old Vasquez or Brienne of Tarth, and I agree that they can be very well conceived and interesting characters. However, a major component of that character type is that they're a rare exception in a field dominated by men. Unless they were equally rare among Space Marines, I fear they'd lose their impact and exceptionalism.
The final point isn't something I'm terribly interested in, personally, because I've actually experienced it first hand with the pressure to allow female soldiers into combat arms units in the military. Which might explain some of my opinions on the topic and my inability to separate it from the politics involved.
Edited 'cause I got past the profanity filter.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/11 00:44:22
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/05/11 00:43:36
Subject: End times - female SM?
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Been Around the Block
Vacaville, California
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Deadshot wrote:the discussion around feminism and sexism within wargaming is something that needs discussed, albeit in a reasonable and calm way.
Ultimately I agree with everything else you've said but I respectfully disagree with the quoted sentence. Feminism and sexism are not something that needs to be discussed in wargaming because people play this game for fun and to relax. People don't play it to get into deep identity politics and the like. To bring it up and disrupt people enjoying a game is no different then me going to a feminist poetry slam and telling everyone to stop reading poetry and start talking about male circumcision. Or going to someone's wedding and as the couple start smearing cake on each others faces and laughing I get up and tell everyone we need to discuss starving children in Africa.
And as others have said it's not hard to make female space marines. Just buy some after market women heads and start converting. Heck I've even seen after market SM bewb chest plates that would make more "feminine " SM if one was inclined.
Besides I can't imagine anyone who would call someone out to there face saying you can't have female marines. I'll give a more personal example. Now I'm pretty green to this game and I'm certainly not a lore nut but from what I can tell my DKok army technically goes against the lore. The idea behind my army is Krieg is using tech to reanimate the dead making my army an undead one. However no one cares about that. All I hear is wow your undead space nazi army looks cool. Then of course I have to remind them that they're not nazi but WW1 trench soldiers.
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Babylon a mosh up the sea and fear him the Rasta mon. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/05/11 01:41:21
Subject: End times - female SM?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Luciferian wrote:
Well, I'd consider your first two reasons to be already possible seeing that they deal with conversions and homebrew chapters. I've seen way  tier ideas for homebrew chapters than ones that include females, though that doesn't say much when you consider what some people come up with.
I completly agree with you. As mentionned earlier, I did it for RPG games since I don't personnaly own a Space Marine army (but could make one quickly considering I have several starter kit). Full support from GW is always appreciated and helps a lot for the modelling though.
Luciferian wrote:
I do enjoy the old Vasquez or Brienne of Tarth, and I agree that they can be very well conceived and interesting characters. However, a major component of that character type is that they're a rare exception in a field dominated by men. Unless they were equally rare among Space Marines, I fear they'd lose their impact and exceptionalism.
I disagree a bit on this point. Not being "unique" or exceptionnal doesn't diminish those characters since they are interesting and good on their own rights. There is also many subvarients that can make each of these "macho women" unique. Much like all "macho men" aren't alike.
Luciferian wrote:
The final point isn't something I'm terribly interested in, personally, because I've actually experienced it first hand with the pressure to allow female soldiers into combat arms units in the military. Which might explain some of my opinions on the topic and my inability to separate it from the politics involved.
I can completly understand that. As a former soldier (in the reserve though) myself, I have met several women who had rather nasty experience while integrating the army that ranges from contempt from officers, trainers and fellow soldiers, disregarding or dimishing their accomplishments, constently asking them to "prove they can make it", passing judgement on the worth of their gender based on personal performance, sexual harassment, stereotyping, etc (I also heard and personnaly seen great example of integration and friendship). On the other side, some men also felt like their every actions and thoughts were harshly policed around their female collegues and that they could be disciplined at any moment for alleged cases of harassment or for not being good support. Our military institutions are still adapting to the reality of women in combat and in the army in general (I heard the navy was the worst place to be a women while the air force was the best, but can tell if that's true or not). Being a very macho and traditional institution, Armed Forces aren't good at changing and adapting to such novelty. As a feminist activist and a history teacher, conflict around integration of women is almost a profession for me. Of course, it transcribe in my interest. Imagining how the Adeptus Astartes would adapt to women in their ranks has a certain appeal to me even if my answer is disappointingly simple (they would fit like hands on glove thanks to the Imperium long standing tradition of women in elite combat units). In any case, to each its own story and interests.
BTW: thanks for sharing the last part, it does help to undertand your point of view.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/11 01:43:34
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/05/11 01:46:04
Subject: End times - female SM?
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Douglas Bader
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Sensual_T_Rex wrote:Feminism and sexism are not something that needs to be discussed in wargaming because people play this game for fun and to relax.
First of all, the idea that we can't criticize something because it's "just fun" is absurd. If 40k involves sexism then that sexism can and should be criticized.
Second, the idea that 40k is "just for fun" and doesn't incorporate any real-world politics goes directly against the history of the game. Earlier editions had various commentary on British politics and social issues (Margaret Thatcher as an ork warboss, anyone?), it's only in newer editions that we seem to have picked up the idea that 40k is its own separate world and straightforward heroic scifi.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/05/11 01:56:49
Subject: End times - female SM?
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Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle
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Perhaps one thing GW could do which would at least partially satisfy all parties is to reopen bitz ordering and provide official conversion options such as female heads, the only real alternatives for which are made by third parties and can get you kicked out of a GW store. That way anyone could make as many official female models as they wanted in any of their lines. Though I also do agree with most others here that they should update nearly all of their lines to have female options by default and release more female special characters like the new Inquisitor.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/05/11 03:11:04
Subject: Re:End times - female SM?
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Peregrine wrote:
It also amuses me to see people completely fail to understand how power armor works. The whole point of power armor is that the strength of the wearer is completely irrelevant. The armor is far stronger than the person inside it, and all the user's movements are doing is telling the armor how to move. You aren't contributing your own strength to a punch, you're making a punching motion that commands the armor to do the same and deliver the punch for you. The only difference between wearing power armor and pressing the "punch" button on a video game controller is that the power armor's movements are far faster and more intuitive because of the superior control interface. Starship Troopers (you know, the book that invented GW's concept of space marines) got it right, a disabled suit of power armor is a metal tomb for the wearer because no matter how strong you are you aren't going to match the strength of the armor's own systems.
As much as i agree with this, i do find it necessary to point out that SM Scouts, not in power armor have a S of 4, while Sisters of Battle in power armor have a S of 3.
Not that you are wrong, I'd make the same argument. Its just that game stats would tell us that 40k power armor is either not as powered, or (maybe more likely) that its not made equally.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/05/11 04:13:00
Subject: Re:End times - female SM?
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Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought
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Insectum7 wrote: Peregrine wrote:
It also amuses me to see people completely fail to understand how power armor works. The whole point of power armor is that the strength of the wearer is completely irrelevant. The armor is far stronger than the person inside it, and all the user's movements are doing is telling the armor how to move. You aren't contributing your own strength to a punch, you're making a punching motion that commands the armor to do the same and deliver the punch for you. The only difference between wearing power armor and pressing the "punch" button on a video game controller is that the power armor's movements are far faster and more intuitive because of the superior control interface. Starship Troopers (you know, the book that invented GW's concept of space marines) got it right, a disabled suit of power armor is a metal tomb for the wearer because no matter how strong you are you aren't going to match the strength of the armor's own systems.
As much as i agree with this, i do find it necessary to point out that SM Scouts, not in power armor have a S of 4, while Sisters of Battle in power armor have a S of 3.
Not that you are wrong, I'd make the same argument. Its just that game stats would tell us that 40k power armor is either not as powered, or (maybe more likely) that its not made equally.
Power Armor is powered, however the enhances of an Astartes allow them to move their armor even when the backpack is ripped off. However the armor does significantly increase their strength and durability, but not to the point where it isn't impossible for an unarmored marine to beat an armored one in a fistfight.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/05/11 05:41:35
Subject: End times - female SM?
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Been Around the Block
Vacaville, California
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Peregrine wrote: Sensual_T_Rex wrote:Feminism and sexism are not something that needs to be discussed in wargaming because people play this game for fun and to relax.
First of all, the idea that we can't criticize something because it's "just fun" is absurd. If 40k involves sexism then that sexism can and should be criticized.
Second, the idea that 40k is "just for fun" and doesn't incorporate any real-world politics goes directly against the history of the game. Earlier editions had various commentary on British politics and social issues (Margaret Thatcher as an ork warboss, anyone?), it's only in newer editions that we seem to have picked up the idea that 40k is its own separate world and straightforward heroic scifi.
First of all lol, I never said you can't criticize the game. What I was saying is don't get all flabbergasted when you bring up something off topic and people blow you off.
Second, I hate to break it to you but yes this is a game and like most games it's supposed to be played for fun. I don't care nor have I met anyone who plays so they can get into serious discussions about identity politics.
I'll give you 2 more examples l. Let's say me and you were playing against each other. What would you rather talk about. Our armies and how we painted them and the theme they have. Perhaps talk about the game we're going to play and what the scenario is about. Or would you like me spend a few hours of your time telling you about the time I was at work and got my testicles caught on a fence and sliced my scrotum open? I'll wager you'd rather talk about the former then the latter.
The other example I have is a reference to DnD.
GM: You're ushered into the throne room and taken before the elven king. The king is a slight fellow with large blue eyes long golden hair and a short trimmed beard.
Player: Elves can't have beards!
GM: the elven king give you incredulous look strokes his beard and says I beg to differ.
In this scenario what would you rather do? Get into a long winded discussion about whether elves can or can't have beards. Or would you rather say to heck with it the elf has a beard let's get back to the adventure. Me personally I'd rather just get back to the adventure.
So basically relax and just try to have some fun
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/11 05:43:04
Babylon a mosh up the sea and fear him the Rasta mon. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/05/11 08:19:59
Subject: End times - female SM?
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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Sensual_T_Rex wrote: Peregrine wrote: Sensual_T_Rex wrote:Feminism and sexism are not something that needs to be discussed in wargaming because people play this game for fun and to relax.
First of all, the idea that we can't criticize something because it's "just fun" is absurd. If 40k involves sexism then that sexism can and should be criticized.
Second, the idea that 40k is "just for fun" and doesn't incorporate any real-world politics goes directly against the history of the game. Earlier editions had various commentary on British politics and social issues (Margaret Thatcher as an ork warboss, anyone?), it's only in newer editions that we seem to have picked up the idea that 40k is its own separate world and straightforward heroic scifi.
First of all lol, I never said you can't criticize the game. What I was saying is don't get all flabbergasted when you bring up something off topic and people blow you off.
Second, I hate to break it to you but yes this is a game and like most games it's supposed to be played for fun. I don't care nor have I met anyone who plays so they can get into serious discussions about identity politics.
I'll give you 2 more examples l. Let's say me and you were playing against each other. What would you rather talk about. Our armies and how we painted them and the theme they have. Perhaps talk about the game we're going to play and what the scenario is about. Or would you like me spend a few hours of your time telling you about the time I was at work and got my testicles caught on a fence and sliced my scrotum open? I'll wager you'd rather talk about the former then the latter.
The other example I have is a reference to DnD.
GM: You're ushered into the throne room and taken before the elven king. The king is a slight fellow with large blue eyes long golden hair and a short trimmed beard.
Player: Elves can't have beards!
GM: the elven king give you incredulous look strokes his beard and says I beg to differ.
In this scenario what would you rather do? Get into a long winded discussion about whether elves can or can't have beards. Or would you rather say to heck with it the elf has a beard let's get back to the adventure. Me personally I'd rather just get back to the adventure.
So basically relax and just try to have some fun
See, I disagree. If enough people are concerned enough to raise the issue, its a legitimate discussion. 40k armies are heavily personalised and so a gender identity crisis does pop up. I also disagree with your example of DnD as its the exact opposite of what's going on.here. a better version would be
Player: The elf enters the throne room, stroking his beard thoughtful as the king speaks.
GM: Elves can't have beards. They lack the gene for facial hair. No Elf has ever been able to grow a beard in 10k years.
PL: But...
GM: No beards.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/05/11 08:32:34
Subject: End times - female SM?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Here's idea for pro-female marines. Start collecting evidence these would increase amount of NEW money that exceeds money lost by players who reduce spending due to it.
You can prove to GW it will be profitable for them they will do it. Automatically Appended Next Post: Peregrine wrote:It also amuses me to see people completely fail to understand how power armor works. The whole point of power armor is that the strength of the wearer is completely irrelevant. The armor is far stronger than the person inside it, and all the user's movements are doing is telling the armor how to move.
Wonder what kind of feats power armoured marine then can do then since naked marine can hack himself inside buildings with bare hands. If armour is far stronger...
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/11 08:36:11
2024 painted/bought: 109/109 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/05/11 08:40:35
Subject: End times - female SM?
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Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard
UK
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But its not a significant portion raising this issue its a vocal minority which in no way represents the community, most gamers wouldn't give it a second thought they are just toy soldiers.
But like with gamergate before trying to force a third wave feminist agenda will red pill a bunch of people and they won't side with you.
You've only got to look on YouTube to see how badly things like antifa has backfired people have woken up to the nonsense that is the regressive left.
I'm a liberal myself and if lived in the states I'd be out there with the free speech guys because the ultra left are nuts and need to be stopped.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/05/11 08:53:11
Subject: End times - female SM?
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Been Around the Block
Vacaville, California
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Deadshot wrote:See, I disagree. If enough people are concerned enough to raise the issue, its a legitimate discussion. 40k armies are heavily personalised and so a gender identity crisis does pop up.
But why is it a legitimate discussion? It's like what you said and I also said. There is nothing stopping you from making female space marines. There's dozens of sites I've seen that give options to make them. It's kinda like how angry marines and pretty marines aren't official chapters but people still make and play them. I can't imagine someone telling a person to there face no you can't play your army because no girlz allowed, and even if they did they'd get laughed out and ostracized for being a butthead. My army goes against cannon but no one cares about that. They just like how cool they look.
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Babylon a mosh up the sea and fear him the Rasta mon. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/05/11 10:02:48
Subject: End times - female SM?
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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Sensual_T_Rex wrote: Deadshot wrote:See, I disagree. If enough people are concerned enough to raise the issue, its a legitimate discussion. 40k armies are heavily personalised and so a gender identity crisis does pop up.
But why is it a legitimate discussion? It's like what you said and I also said. There is nothing stopping you from making female space marines. There's dozens of sites I've seen that give options to make them. It's kinda like how angry marines and pretty marines aren't official chapters but people still make and play them. I can't imagine someone telling a person to there face no you can't play your army because no girlz allowed, and even if they did they'd get laughed out and ostracized for being a butthead. My army goes against cannon but no one cares about that. They just like how cool they look.
Gender equality is always a valid discussion regardless of medium. If enough people are vocal enough about the issue in wargaming then it should be addressed, and there is evidence to suggest that there is a gender inequality: from the male to female wargamer ratio, the relatively few female models available (particularly in 40K) and the sexualised nature of the few that do exist (lack of clothing, huge boobs with tiny bits of armour, etc). All the other things brought up here so far.
I will happily agree that I will happily play against FeMarine conversions, however, there's a huge difference between FeMarines and joke chapters and homebrew chapters. None are official, however, Angry Marines are quite clearly a parody/humour faction, one that GW has said "No, this is not allowed" for the obvious reasons, particularly in their stores (rude language, posing, meanings, un-kid friendly army). FeMarines are a more serious creation more akin to a homebrew chapter, but the big difference is that homebrew chapters, within certain confines of the established fluff, are "semi-canon." For example, I am creating a homebrew Chapter called the Blue Sentinels based on the covenant of the same name from Dark Souls 2 and 3. They wear dark blue armour, silver trim, and their modus operandi is rapid response, quickly travelling in force to defend invaded planets, fleet based so they can get there very quickly. They specialise in Vanguard Veterans and their first company is Blades of the Darkmoon, and wear purple armour with gold trim.
Note that while this chapter isn't official, and my own creation, GW would happily point to this chapter and say "It probably exists somewhere in the galaxy at some point! Do as you please!" (apart from the obvious IP infringement). The key to remember is that this does not in any way break established canon, regardless of how minor or major that canon is.
A second example: Homebrew Chapter A is just like a normal chapter but rediscovered the STC for Terminator armour and kept it for themselves, which is why they field huge numbers of Terminators in their GSF. They are constantly told to give it to the AdMEch and inquisition but they repeatedly mouth them off and get away with it. Again, a homebrew but this breaks a minor piece of canon, in that you don't mouth off the Inqusition and get away with it, as well as withholding STCs and not getting Titans dropped through your roof. It would still be accepted though, if grudgingly, by players.
Now, FeMarines break a whole bucketful of canon. In fact, all the canon for Space Marines throughout 10k years. Such a development would require complete rewrite of the history of Space Marines, including 90% of Black Library content, as well as the Horus Heresy series, FW HH books and basically all written content, as the question would remain, where are the FeMarines? Let's say there was no rewrite though, and you went in a GW store with your GirlMarines army. With the Blue Sentinels above, the comments might be something akin to "Cool chapter bro, love the Dark Souls reference, interesting concept." Homebrew A might be "Seems a bit far fetched, but MEQ is MEQ, I'll accept your slightly wishywashy reason for Terminator hordes." Where FeMarines would be an instant "Girls can't be Space Marines" as evidenced by this entire thread. They might still play against that army, because MEQ is MEQ. But, there is a fine line between Acceptable Homebrew Chapters and borderline non-acceptable chapters. But there is a hard line of "Canon" drawn in the sand between homebrew chapters and female space marines, and regardless of what you say, no one will ever accept your FeMarines as canon, semi-canon, or close to canon.
PLease bear in mind as well I'm talking strictly about classic marines, not these new Guilliman marines, as these are different kette of fish. My issue with FeMarines lies entirely in the shoehorning them into the setting, much like how some people hate how Centurians, Stormravens, Stormtalons, Stalkers, Hunters and Stormhawks were suddenly just "Always there from the beginning." As well, writing in a reason such as "Oh they just discovered that they can make girl space marines in this year" would gak all over the established fluff as well, as the gene-modifications of Space Marines, Custodes and Primarchs was always the Emperor's Magnum Opus that no one else has figured out, not even Fabius Bile who has spent 10k years doing so.
My main issue personally with FeMarines is the cost and effort of putting them into the setting, the jarringness and reboot on the level of OldCrons to NewCrons of the biggest army set in the game, and the production of new models that will in my opinion look exactly the same as regular space marines.
However, you can't read this thread and say there is no issue here, as clearly there is. Its easy to say "its only a game of plastic crack" but I do think it should be thoroughly discussed whether this is in fact gender inequality within the community, in which case it should be stamped out as with any other time it comes up, or if its okay that there is no Female Marines.
Someone said earlier that they disagreed with me about it needing to be discussed. I wish to clarify what I meant was not that it should be discussed, period, but rather, that it is going to be discussed and therefore should be done in a calm and intellectual manner (and not devolve into elements of "Fething Feminazi's invading my space" or some such equivilent argument).
Automatically Appended Next Post: hobojebus wrote:But its not a significant portion raising this issue its a vocal minority which in no way represents the community, most gamers wouldn't give it a second thought they are just toy soldiers.
But like with gamergate before trying to force a third wave feminist agenda will red pill a bunch of people and they won't side with you.
You've only got to look on YouTube to see how badly things like antifa has backfired people have woken up to the nonsense that is the regressive left.
I'm a liberal myself and if lived in the states I'd be out there with the free speech guys because the ultra left are nuts and need to be stopped.
You have no numbers or statistics to back up whether this is a vocal minority, a vocal majoirty, a non vocal supermajority or anything else. I could just as easily say that most gamers would see this as inconsequential enough that they wouldn't care either way if FeMarines were canon today, and it's just a vocal minority like yourself who hates third-wave feminism. You see one person bring this up every now and then but it keeps cropping up so it obvious is consistantly on someone's mind. And yes, they do represent an element of the community. Not the whole community, but we're not dealing with criminal investigation. Shutting down of minority voices is how racial and gender inequality came about in the first place.
I will also say your views on third-wave feminism aren't the discussion here, and how you view gamergate, Female Marines, what you think of the "Regressive Left" or whoever else, isn't relevant here. The discussion is whether or not we should have female space marines. My argument is simply that the time, effort and retconning needed to add them to the setting is too great, and the cost of rules and model production is better spent strengthening the product line and rules we currently have. However, if FeMarines became the new craze and everyone was demanding them, then this argument would be void and so I'd accept them into the setting. You argument seems to be that you perceive a third-wave feminist, ultra-Left agenda to mess up with your hobby (that you also don't have to deal with because you can just not buy said models), which doesn't hold any weight in discussion.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/11 10:12:35
I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/05/11 11:07:33
Subject: End times - female SM?
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Been Around the Block
Vacaville, California
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Well I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. From what I've seen the majority of the people on this site say they don't care. And the few who say they do I guarantee wouldn't say it to your face. And to those people who care let them huff and puff in their closets. The only thing limiting anyone in this game is the mind set of the person in question. My army isn't cannon and anyone who says nope can't play em can get bent. Luckily for me I game at a store where everyone is welcomed and no one ever tells anyone their army sucks because muh cannon. And with that I bid you goodnight my fellow gamers and thanks for the enlightened conversation.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/11 11:13:16
Babylon a mosh up the sea and fear him the Rasta mon. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/05/11 11:38:46
Subject: End times - female SM?
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Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard
UK
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How do I not have statistics?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/only-7-per-cent-of-britons-consider-themselves-feminists/
Two seconds on google found that, feminism is on the decline across the world because the crazies escaped tmblr.
So given the average citizen is going right how would that not apply to warhammer players?
Changing a product to satisfy a small demographic is bad business I've named several examples through out this thread where it went badly.
It also wouldn't work because even when the vocal minority gets its way they arnt happy and find something else to moan about.
What's next a demand its changed to an empress on the golden throne? Why not you're already asking for major retconning.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/05/11 11:50:46
Subject: End times - female SM?
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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hobojebus wrote:How do I not have statistics?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/only-7-per-cent-of-britons-consider-themselves-feminists/
Two seconds on google found that, feminism is on the decline across the world because the crazies escaped tmblr.
So given the average citizen is going right how would that not apply to warhammer players?
Changing a product to satisfy a small demographic is bad business I've named several examples through out this thread where it went badly.
It also wouldn't work because even when the vocal minority gets its way they arnt happy and find something else to moan about.
What's next a demand its changed to an empress on the golden throne? Why not you're already asking for major retconning.
Wrong statistic, that's the number of British that consider themselves Feminist, not the number of 40k players who want Female marines. Two very different figures, and the second one in which you have no numbers to direct to. Without knowing exactly what portion of the consumer base is actually wanting female marines, what part is vocal about it, and who does not want them at all, you can't make any such strict claims about minorities and small demographics. There could easily be a number of female gamers who don't ever visit this forum, silently hoping that GW makes Female Marines soon. That number could just as easily be in excess or twice as large as the membership of Dakka. You and I have absolutely no clue what that number is because last I check no one has conducted detail research of who wants female marines.
The "changing a product" is a valid point, but as mention, this may not be a vocal minority, it could be a non-vocal majority, or supermajority. And if GW considered it profitable and it was profitable then it would work, and I'm sure many gamers here would eventually pick up female marines. I doubt many, if any, would boycott female marine models just to make a point.
The last two lines aren't about models and why there should and shouldn't be female marines in the game and fluff, you're once again bringing personal gripes about a particular political mindset as an argument why you don't want female marines, because you feel like it would result in a domino effect of female-everything from further pressure. Which it may do, and if you feel that strongly about it at that time then you can also be vocal. But if people want it, why shouldn't they have it?
To clarify, I personally dont think they should have it, from a budget, investment and retcon perspective. I feel the setting would be too dramatically changed, the cost of doing so too high, and the effort required better spent elsewhere. You are arguing purely from a political perspective.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/05/11 11:59:03
Subject: End times - female SM?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Deadshot wrote:You and I have absolutely no clue what that number is because last I check no one has conducted detail research of who wants female marines.
Which is why I said that pro-female marines should start getting some solid proofs  If they can get evidence it will bring more profit to GW than otherwise then they will do it. Of course it annoys those who don't want but clearly they have then been minority enough that even them quitting makes it still more profitable.
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2024 painted/bought: 109/109 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/05/11 12:06:00
Subject: End times - female SM?
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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tneva82 wrote: Deadshot wrote:You and I have absolutely no clue what that number is because last I check no one has conducted detail research of who wants female marines.
Which is why I said that pro-female marines should start getting some solid proofs  If they can get evidence it will bring more profit to GW than otherwise then they will do it. Of course it annoys those who don't want but clearly they have then been minority enough that even them quitting makes it still more profitable.
Proof: "If GW brought out female marines I would buy an army." GW then examine the production, shipping, distribution costs, all unknowable variables for us. The examine projected sales,another unknown to us, and then decide whether to pursue the line. All a pro-FeMarine person needs to do is show market interest, and if the market is there GW will produce it. As current, GW deem the cost too high, either is expected loss of established customer or financial. But if there was vocal enough consumers to warrant it, why should GW not produce it?
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I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
I started an Instagram! Follow me at Deadshot Miniatures!
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Credit to Castiel for banner. Thanks Cas!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/05/11 13:52:20
Subject: End times - female SM?
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Perfect Shot Dark Angels Predator Pilot
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Deadshot wrote:If enough people are concerned enough to raise the issue, its a legitimate discussion. 40k armies are heavily personalised and so a gender identity crisis does pop up.
Hence my friend who was disappointed by the lack of female Space Wolves.
Wherever one falls on the FeMarine issue, it's obvious it would be a controversial move, and there's a lot GW could do to promote more gender diversity in 40K before they whack that particular hornet's nest. They could start by creating a mini for Inquisitor Valeria. Then a female Farseer, maybe a few female Warlocks. Produce some female Imperial Guard officers. All of these things can be done without retooling major kits or ticking off any fanboys.
GW could also suck it up and release plastic Sister of Battle. They could then beef up the role of SoBs in the current lore - not contradict any of the past fluff, mind you, but write into the fluff that in the Imperium's current state of crisis, the High Lords of Terra are calling on the Ecclesiarchy to deploy their fighting forces in coordination with the Imperial Guard, and authorizing/leaning on the Ecclesiarchy to up the numbers of SoBs that can take the field. SoBs don't require all kinds of wacky space pseudo-science to create, so mass recruitment would be easier than for Space Marines, so the role of the Adepta Sororitas in the overall fighting strength of the Imperium would grow to the point where they are of equivalent significance to Space Marines. This would bring more gender parity in the setting without requiring massive retcons, sort of the way American football and girl's field hockey are considered equivalent under Title IX - for those unfamiliar, it's the law that requires American schools receiving federal funding to offer equivalent sports options to both boys and girls. Most American high schools don't have a girl's (American) football team, but they have a girl's field hockey team as an equivalent offering.
Anyhow, the introduction of FeMarines wouldn't have to be an all-or-nothing proposition. GW could test the waters by introducing a limited role for female troopers in one Space Marine chapter. The Space Wolves would be the ideal choice here, because they're already the most individualistic, having them recruit female warriors could be seen as a legitimate reaction to their current crisis, and there's a shield-maiden tradition within the Viking theme. They could release one kit that's designed to represent an all-female unit, with bitz to represent a couple variants - less elite Shield Maidens and more elite Valkyries, say. GW could then gauge the reaction before introducing the idea of FeMarines in other chapters. If there's an overall negative reaction, they can let the kit languish. If there's an overall positive reaction, they can move forward, and they can do so by stating in the fluff that other chapters start following the Space Wolves' example. That doesn't contradict any existing fluff, and there's a precedent for Space Wolves coming up with something that other Space Marine chapters wind up adopting - it's the fluff for the Predator Annihilator in Imperial Armor II.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/05/11 14:25:45
Subject: End times - female SM?
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Hungry Little Ripper
Texas
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Luciferian wrote:Perhaps one thing GW could do which would at least partially satisfy all parties is to reopen bitz ordering and provide official conversion options such as female heads, the only real alternatives for which are made by third parties and can get you kicked out of a GW store. That way anyone could make as many official female models as they wanted in any of their lines. Though I also do agree with most others here that they should update nearly all of their lines to have female options by default and release more female special characters like the new Inquisitor.
This is my biggest gripe with GW and always has been. I can see doing this for tournament play but kicking people out of stores for a third party MOD is just asinine, especially when there are so many good kitbashing opportunities. Maybe I'd like a Bretonia army that looks more historical? Maybe I want to theme my own undead army. Maybe I want Adeptus Arbites that look like Judge Dredd. Ugh!
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Jesse
"Always keep fighting, it keeps you young." - Some guy. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/05/11 14:30:44
Subject: End times - female SM?
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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Genestealer Jesse wrote: Luciferian wrote:Perhaps one thing GW could do which would at least partially satisfy all parties is to reopen bitz ordering and provide official conversion options such as female heads, the only real alternatives for which are made by third parties and can get you kicked out of a GW store. That way anyone could make as many official female models as they wanted in any of their lines. Though I also do agree with most others here that they should update nearly all of their lines to have female options by default and release more female special characters like the new Inquisitor.
This is my biggest gripe with GW and always has been. I can see doing this for tournament play but kicking people out of stores for a third party MOD is just asinine, especially when there are so many good kitbashing opportunities. Maybe I'd like a Bretonia army that looks more historical? Maybe I want to theme my own undead army. Maybe I want Adeptus Arbites that look like Judge Dredd. Ugh!
Promotion of business rivals inside their own stores (its a store, not a gaming club!) and I'm pretty sure that would border on IP infringement. Not seriously but being GW are they going to take such a risk? Tournaments are the ones that should be permitting conversions as they are not official GW events, and as long as things are clear, what's the issue? Why should an independent and privately run competition have less strict rules than the store trying to sell product while you're over on the table showing off the conversion bits you got cheaper online?
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I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
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DR:90+S++G+++M+B+IPw40k08#-D+++A+++/cwd363R+++T(Ot)DM+
Check out my Deathwatch story, Aftermath in the fiction section!
Credit to Castiel for banner. Thanks Cas!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/05/11 14:34:05
Subject: End times - female SM?
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Hungry Little Ripper
Texas
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Deadshot wrote: Genestealer Jesse wrote: Luciferian wrote:Perhaps one thing GW could do which would at least partially satisfy all parties is to reopen bitz ordering and provide official conversion options such as female heads, the only real alternatives for which are made by third parties and can get you kicked out of a GW store. That way anyone could make as many official female models as they wanted in any of their lines. Though I also do agree with most others here that they should update nearly all of their lines to have female options by default and release more female special characters like the new Inquisitor.
This is my biggest gripe with GW and always has been. I can see doing this for tournament play but kicking people out of stores for a third party MOD is just asinine, especially when there are so many good kitbashing opportunities. Maybe I'd like a Bretonia army that looks more historical? Maybe I want to theme my own undead army. Maybe I want Adeptus Arbites that look like Judge Dredd. Ugh!
Promotion of business rivals inside their own stores (its a store, not a gaming club!) and I'm pretty sure that would border on IP infringement. Not seriously but being GW are they going to take such a risk? Tournaments are the ones that should be permitting conversions as they are not official GW events, and as long as things are clear, what's the issue? Why should an independent and privately run competition have less strict rules than the store trying to sell product while you're over on the table showing off the conversion bits you got cheaper online?
I'm pretty sure I have seen actual GW sponsored tournaments. Isn't Golden Demon? In an independent tournament, if I was organizing it I would totally allow mods.
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Jesse
"Always keep fighting, it keeps you young." - Some guy. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/05/11 14:41:06
Subject: End times - female SM?
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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Golden Demon isn't a tournament. It's been a pro-painting competition for DECADES, longer than I've been alive. You should google it, beautiful paints and conversions.
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SHUPPET wrote:
wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/05/11 15:36:30
Subject: End times - female SM?
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
Vigo. Spain.
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Deadshot wrote:
Player: The elf enters the throne room, stroking his beard thoughtful as the king speaks.
GM: Elves can't have beards. They lack the gene for facial hair. No Elf has ever been able to grow a beard in 10k years.
PL: But...
GM: No beards.
Welcome to Warcraft High and Blood Elves
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Crimson Devil wrote:
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote:Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
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