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Player: The elf enters the throne room, stroking his beard thoughtful as the king speaks.
GM: Elves can't have beards. They lack the gene for facial hair. No Elf has ever been able to grow a beard in 10k years.
PL: But...
GM: No beards.
Player: The elf enters the throne room, stroking his beard thoughtful as the king speaks.
GM: Elves can't have beards. They lack the gene for facial hair. No Elf has ever been able to grow a beard in 10k years.
PL: But...
GM: No beards.
Welcome to Warcraft High and Blood Elves
Nope!
Spoiler:
GM makes the rules, Elves have no beards.
Except GM is an analogy to GW, Elves are equivilent to Space Marines, and beards to women. Because by this GM's rules Elves can't grow beards since they came about 10k years ago, and still can't.
I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
I started an Instagram! Follow me at Deadshot Miniatures! DR:90+S++G+++M+B+IPw40k08#-D+++A+++/cwd363R+++T(Ot)DM+ Check out my Deathwatch story, Aftermath in the fiction section!
Credit to Castiel for banner. Thanks Cas!
Player: The elf enters the throne room, stroking his beard thoughtful as the king speaks.
GM: Elves can't have beards. They lack the gene for facial hair. No Elf has ever been able to grow a beard in 10k years.
PL: But...
GM: No beards.
Welcome to Warcraft High and Blood Elves
Nope!
Spoiler:
If you try that I'll take that crappy manga as Canon (At least those small details), you are gonna have a bad time! Is just like Med'an crossing the Mare Magnum in a bat, in HOURS, from Duskwood to Theramore Island. Warcraft Mangas and Comics are in general, one of the worst lore-friendly things out there. Even Blizzard ignore them in many cases! The Med'an comics for example, have been practically ignored.
I still remember that short history about Lor'themar Theron where it was snowing in Quel'thalas. It is called Land of Eternal Spring for a reason! And Sylvannas didn't decompose, he uses magic to avoid that!
ngngngn!
But sorry, I'll not derrail the thread anymore with warcraft lore.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/05/11 16:20:13
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: There we are. You're applying modern values and expectations to a setting that's more in common with the middle ages than our own.
Not to mention that you're using a stereotype of modern times to justify something thousands of years in the future.
Not quite what I'd call evidence.
Space Marines are a modern creation by modern men for consomption by modern persons as entertainment. They aren't a social thought experiment on gender stereotype in the far future. They are the exact opposite. They are the product of our vision of what a perfect monastic soldier should be and look like in a science fanstasy setting. Its a typical power fantasy. There is no denying it. Space marine are strongly gendered and explicitly so. Nobody ask the question are Space Marine men or women? Do they behave like men or women? We have a very clear answer to both those question. From an inside perspective, you are right, we don't know how they perceive themselves sexualy speaking, but that's a non sequitur. Since they are imaginary, their only real identity is the one we ascribe to them.
So, really, because it's created in the modern day and imaginary, we can ignore all context that applies to the setting?
"Yeah, my Plague Marines actually worship Slaanesh and hate Nurgle, like, I know they're all about Plagues and stuff, but nah - REALLY not a fan of Nurgle and all. Wh- you disagree? Well your canon doesn't matter, it's the 21st century, it's the modern day, I don't need to consider the context of the setting!"
Again, what is definitively MALE about Space Marines? For me, masculine =/= male. A woman can be masculine. A man can be feminine. Agender can be either. That's just a verb, a descriptive. Actual male or female though - what makes a Space Marine male? Genetalia? Do they have them? Their choice of pronoun? If it is choice of pronoun, then can a disembodied head of a former man identify under female nouns? Are they then a female?*
*I'd just like to clarify, that's not intended as an insult or loaded question at all. I welcome any views and opinions on the matter, so there's no right and wrong. I just want your opinion on that matter.
You can also have a very strong friendship and not call it love.
You can also have a very stong friendship and call it love. Both are just as likely and possible depending on your interpretation of some cues, inuendo and events.
Absolutely, hence why I'm asking for a confirmation of love. Not interpretation - actual love, as far as it can be confirmed.
I absolutely agree that they're not 100% war machine, but their purpose, their intended goal, is as that. What they do in their off-time, as laid out by the 4th (?) edition Codex, is up to them, but if that interferes in their primary goal, then they're not a very good Space Marine, are they?
It's like being a builder nowadays, but you get distracted from your work birdwatching. Your job, your primary purpose in your society, is as a builder, but you can still birdwatch in your spare time.
Still - this has no bearing on gender. Still, as long as we agree that one's tastes are not defined by gender.
I completly agree on that. The concept presented by deadshot was that of Space Marines without gender and solely war machines. Space Marines are men and are more than simple war machine (even if its their primary function). My mention of their hobbies and passion was to prove that they were more than machine, not that they were men. They are men due to their apperance, values and behaviors, not because of their hobbies.
Mostly agreed, except I wouldn't say that their appearance, values and behaviours define them as men. Are you suggesting that a women can't have the same values and behaviours as a Space Marine, nor share the same appearance if they were likewise put under the same massively invasive procedures?
What about choice of identification? If a canon Space Marine identified as female, are they still a Space Marine? After all, you did just imply that ONLY men could have the "apperance, values and behaviors" of a Space Marine.
With the amount of drugs they'd be pumped up with? All of them look like bodybuilders - no graces, just sheer muscle. There's pictures that support that notion - it's not "based on nothing concrete". It's canon. That's what a Space Marines looks like not because he's male, but because of the sheer testosterone in his system. If you're insinuating otherwise, could you show me a picture of a Space Marine out of armour who doesn't look like a weightlifter? I see them looking far more like Hafthor Bjornsson than Bruce Lee.
Most images in my opinion, especially those of scouts (who are the most useful since its easier to see their mensuration) makes them look more like Heavy or Welterweight boxers or martial artists. Several of those at the bottom of this entry on Wikia are good example of this. Note the two Raven Guards with the snipers, the Space Wolf and the Imperial Fist at the top. They are too slim to be proper bodybuilder and to lean and tall to be good weightlifters, but have the proper appearence to be tough soldiers. I can easily imagine a tough women with similar mensuration and she would still look feminine.
However, look at some of the other Scouts - very muscular and hopped up.
Not to mention that Space Marines are all very tall (seven feet is average) and must still be in proportion. Alternatively, look at images of other Space Marines outside of armour - not just Scouts.
Spoiler:
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Spoiler:
Spoiler:
They look VERY bulky to me.
Again, all your examples are Scouts, who may not have undergone the full transformation of the Biscopea. Two of my examples are full Space Marines, and are very large.
Why would a woman not look the same?
Why is having a difference between men and women an issue that you wish to distinguish? They're both superhumans hopped up on god knows how many drugs and hormones - why would they look any different?
Why don't you think women shouldn't look like massive bodybuilders, like the normal marines look like?
Why don't you want them to be different? Does the idea of a women super soldier, stronger than any men displeases you particularly?
Not at all. I want them to be exactly the same. Hence my argument. With the NuMarines, I don't believe there needs to be a difference based on gender.
I already mention why its interesting to a have Space Marine women, because they bring a greater aesthetic diversity. I like to see men and women in a model army because they bring a bit of variety and a slight touch of originality to the hole.
Since I personnaly think that Marines aren't forced to look like bodybuilders (even if some will look like so) i think this question answers itself. Since God knows how many drugs and hormones are pumped into them, we don't know how they would look like either. They could remain very feminine for all we know since, even amongst women bodybuilders, many still look feminine. It could even make them look even more feminine for all we know.
But why based on men and women? If we can have the more slight frames of women, why can men of a slight bent be taken in? Wouldn't they look more like the women then? What about women who outstrength those men? Would they not look like the typical men?
If you want different frames and variety in your Space Marines, like more athletic ones, then why stratify that on gender? At the moment, you're implying that men MUST be big, and women MUST be more slight, when there are notable exceptions either side.
If they're weaker, then why are they accepted in? If they can't match the basic standard of a Space Marine, then they're not up to snuff. They'd make a brilliant SoB or Guardwoman though.
What about male marines who are a little bit weaker but nimbler than their brethren? Are they still inducted, despite not meeting the requirement? Is there a different standard for gender? Why?
Weaker in terms of physical might doesn't mean worse in combat in general. Strength is one of the many, many factor that makes a good solider and in a form of warfare mostly done at range with guns and canons, it's not even a vital one either. There is already weaker, but nimbler marines. Abbadon was much stronger than Loken who was himself stronger than Lucius who happens to be better swordsmen than both of them becasue he's more nimble and agile.
If strength wasn't a factor, then why would the Biscopea be implanted? If strength wasn't a factor, then why even screen for the strongest recruits, if you're only after their hardiness? Lucius was still very strong, and his agility came from skill - not from his lack of strength or biology. One can be skilled and strong - it's not mutually exclusive.
Its the same thing for all of them. Why would you think the requirements to become a Space Marine involve strength test? Why would it be the only test or the most important one? If so, girls will outperform boys on average since between the age of 10 and 14 years old (the prime age of recruitment for Space Marines), girls are taller, heavier and stronger than boys on average.
Except that women are useless in the current tests, because they simply can't survive it. They don't meld with the geneseed. Why bother having female recruits when you know that they won't make it?
The NuMarines are a different story, because we don't know how their creation process works.
The situation reverse itself around the age of 16-18 years old, but at that point, Marines are already on the battlefield serving in Scout units. Nowhere do I mention that women would have different test than men, simply that most of them might be in the lower tier within their chapter in terms of physical strength, but that this apparent weakness can be compensated by other qualities much like Space Marine men who are in the same situation.
So why do the Space Marines accept inferior stock, if that's the case? If they're lower tier, but still in the right bracket, that's fine. However, if that's an appropriate bracket, that means that there must be men in that bracket too. If so, then surely it would be better to have your "variety" of Space Marine aesthetic based on one's build rather than gender?
Yes, but all Space Marines look "ultra-butch". Seriously, find one that doesn't. Just one Marine who doesn't look like a bodybuilder. Of course there's variety, but not an entirely new build.
There's my reasoning for FeMarines looking like bodybuilders - because ALL Space Marines do.
There's my reasoning, Space Marines women would look like women because women bodybuilder, Heavyweight and Welterweight boxers, or even soldier women look like women not like men at all.
Real world women bodybuilders, heavyweights and welterweights are not pumped full of foreign organs, hormones, drugs and quite literally transformed into superhumans. Even male bodybuilders wouldn't necessarily look like Space Marines, but as we see in the art, we DO see Space Marines looking like bodybuilders. Therefore, it's not unreasonable to assume that a woman who undergoes the same procedure would look the same.
The difference in term of aesthetic is obvious. Even if I was to admit all Space Marines look like bodybuilders (I think they look like strong soldiers, but not like bodybuilders), your argument for them being identical to men to point where the difference is moot is a bit strange. Plus, considering that we are talking about changing the apperance of (some) Space Marines saying that they all look the same, thus should keep on looking the same is a fallacious appeal to tradition. It doesn't make any sense for them to look the same if we make them different. If you take all that I have said and the fact that I think I have found Space Marines who don't look like bodybuilders, you should see why I am supporting such a vision.
I don't see a difference in aesthetic at all - given that it takes the implantation procedure to turn a 12 year old into something that would make the strongest man ashamed, why would a 12 year old girl not turn out the same?
If you're suggesting that there's different brackets of a Space Marine's strength, then why would that be stratified on gender?
Absolutely - so long as the quality of the "brightest and best" doesn't change. Female recruits need to jump through the same hoops as anyone else to be a Space Marines. That's my whole point.
There is only two elements - being the best, and surviving. Because with the normal Space Marines, it was impossible for the woman to survive, they simply couldn't proceed. Now, if the NuMarine procedure is the same, but allows for females, then the net hasn't changed - it's just that women can now actually survive, and have a chance at the same goal as men.
The standards shouldn't/haven't changed.
indeed, I never said the standards would need to change (they are probably different from Chapter to Chapter anyway). I am simply stating the obvious. The best and brightest teenagers of a planet will count amongst them a plurality of girls, sometime a minority at certain time and space, sometime a majority. Right now, the very best potential warrior in the galaxy might be a girl, as such, the very best warrior might not be able to become a Space Marine. If the New Marine can be women, than, there is no reason why the very best potential warriors in the galaxy couldn't be Space Marines. That's the crux of my argument and I think we both agree on that.
Yes, absolutely. I do not think that women should be inducted into the current Space Marines, because we have a perfectly good reason why not. However, if the NuMarines could allow for female soldiers, I don't see at all why they shouldn't be given the same opportunities. If they can pass the tests, then they get in. Enough said. However, I don't think they need anything more than a different head - their brawn should be the same as any other Space Marine.
I see it differently, but they're both opinions and both valid. Suffice to say, I believe that cancels both points to be moot for this discussion.
I'm perfectly fine with that! I would also like to know what you think is the most interesting thing about Space Marines in terms of character if you don't mind sharing (potentialy by PM as to not derail the thread).
The word "Love" in the English language is far too limiting and no, both are not as likely to happen. Keep your homoerotic headcanon at home.
I'm not the one who put idealise sculpted abs on Blood Angels (and Minotaurs), made Loken comment on how this gut and this guy were so beautiful, Salamanders of the 3rd company wonder if the late captain Ka'dai and the apothecary were more than just Brothers, etc. I'm sorry, but it seems to be a trait shared by some. Feel free to ignore it, but it leaves me to wonder...
Scuplted abs means nothing about their sexuality? It might just be their choice of art - it may mean nothing else.
Saying someone is "beautiful" doesn't have to imply sexuality or even love. I can look at a sword and say "dang, that's a beautiful weapon" - it doesn't mean I want to stick it somewhere or have feelings for it.
Again, I'll drop this if I see actually confirmed "love", rather than what we have no reason to see as anything more than respect.
You seem to forget that Astartes are 8 feet tall. Their muscle mass is proportioned to their height.
No, I didn't since it would be the same thing for Space Marine women. They would be awfully tall and heavy compared to a normal men, but they would have the general apperance of a soldier women (only 20% bigger).
Would they? Space Marines don't seem to just get "bigger" like simply scaling up. Their entire muscle mass, structure, and proportions change. A female would look like a current Space Marine, no?
Greater aesthetic diversity ha. Good meme. They pump these kids full of Testosterone before they hit puberty. You'd still get ordinary Astartes.
We don't know if they are pump full of testosterone. In fact pumping them full of testosterone would make them look like women due to little phenomenon called fat/muscle conversion. Gaining quickly mass by converting fat into muscle causes cell to release estrogen, a women's sexual hormones. They probably use something different. Then again, Space Marine creation is so full of pseudo-scientific bs that its not worth going there and try to make sense out of it. Space Marines look like men because the guy in charge of making drawings of them was told to make them look like men. If he's told to make them look like women they will.
All we know as far as hormones go is that they're implanted with the Biscopea, which "releases hormones that vastly increase muscle growth throughout the marine's body. It also serves to form the hormonal basis for many of the later implants".
If the art depicted them as women, then I'd argue that all men and women implanted would look like that. That's not the case. We see Space Marines look like men, so they all should, because that's what the procedure has them end up looking like.
Regardless if it's psuedo-scientific bullgak, it's psuedo-scientific bullgak that's canon.
Astartes are shock troopers. They aren't shooting the enemy more than they are punching them.
They do punch a lot of enemies, but they shoot a lot too. In fact they mostly mop up resistence in close combat. That's why the basic Space Marine, the tactical marine, has a rifle as main weapon and not a sword (some exception applies of course, with some Chapters being really good in close combat, while other favor long range engagement)
Actually, a Tactical Marine is expected to do double duty - hence that they are only promoted to Tactical when they've mastered both shooting and assault.
Lucius is a better swordsman because he has technique. You think someone so nimble and agile would get punched in the nose like a chump?
Everyone can loose a sparring match, that doesn't make him a chump. In fact, he is still widely considered, even by Loken, as one of the most brilliant Space Marine out there.
Still, it doesn't mean that he doesn't have technique, and that his technique comes from agility over strength alone. All Space Marines combine the two - that's what makes them so powerful.
NuMarines can be both for all I care. They'll turn into Spartans from the Halo franchise minus the kidnappings.
Does that mean that I lost my time answering you?
Well, that depends.
If we're talking about the OldMarines, then it's completely valid. If it's NuMarines, then probably not. A lot of people don't care about the NuMarines, because they have no canon opposing it. I count myself in that category - I would have no objection to FemNuMarines, but normal FeMarines are not something I support.
1) It provides more diversity in terms of aesthetic while still remaining in the same mold. This is important for me because it allows me to better personnalise my squads and individual models.
But, going back to your point on women being in the lower tier of Space Marine strength, would that not mean that there are men in that category too? If so, then why do you need female marines when male ones could also fit that slim look you prefer? Would that not be enough for personalisation? What specifically about women would grant that? Boobplate? Long hair?
2) It opens the way to interesting super warrior culture trope for homemade Chapters otherwise closed like amazon warriors for example or the very current SDF forces of Rojava.
Is that worth rewriting the lore of the standard Space Marines? Could those same Amazonians not be achieved through Catachans (who certainly fit the aesthetic) or Sisters of Battle - perhaps Sisters recruited from a planet like Catachan?
3) It gives a center stage to a rarely seen and used trope: that of the "Vasquez", the macho women. Plus, the "Vasquez" can come in a lot of variations, some that we seldom see on a regular basis and other, because of the relative rarity of the trope, might still be left to create. I find that very interesting.
Are you suggesting that ONLY Space Marines can be macho? That Sisters of Battle can't possess the same traits?
After all the only actual difference, aside from faith and doctrine, is that Space Marines are genetically engineered and rare, and Sister are not genetically engineered and are more common. Aside from those two features, they are the same - monogender factions that wield bolters and power armour, fighting for the Imperium fanatically and with great skill.
Is genetic modification necessary for the "Vasquez"?
4) Should that be your cup of tea, it can bring a nice element of change to the tradition of a major faction and create a lot of interesting emotional confrontations and reactions within a Chapter. Of course this is purely optionnal.
Judging from many responses, it seems that this one isn't widely supported.
Peregrine wrote:It always amuses me to see people stubbornly insisting that the process of making space marines, which is blatant "a space wizard did it" technobabble with no connection to reality, would be unrealistic if it could be applied to women. The difference between a human male and a human female is far, far less than the difference between a human male and a space marine. And if your process is essentially "throw out everything about the body you started with, and replace it with a space marine" then there's no inherent realism problem with applying that same process to women.
Again, even if "a wizard did it" is the explanation, that's the canon explanation. It's just as valid as us accepting that a meltagun is really good against armour, or that a Stormtalon can somehow fly, or that 1000 Space Marines per 1000 Chapters can be as efficient as we see them. Regardless of your opinions of the validity of GW canon, it is still canon. If they consistently tell us that X is X, we should accept that. (Emphasis consistently, due to Goto and suchlike). If X is, in this case, "Women can't be implanted with the geneseed" then that's true. To do otherwise would be to say "No GW, X actually = Y."
It also amuses me to see people completely fail to understand how power armor works. The whole point of power armor is that the strength of the wearer is completely irrelevant. The armor is far stronger than the person inside it, and all the user's movements are doing is telling the armor how to move. You aren't contributing your own strength to a punch, you're making a punching motion that commands the armor to do the same and deliver the punch for you. The only difference between wearing power armor and pressing the "punch" button on a video game controller is that the power armor's movements are far faster and more intuitive because of the superior control interface. Starship Troopers (you know, the book that invented GW's concept of space marines) got it right, a disabled suit of power armor is a metal tomb for the wearer because no matter how strong you are you aren't going to match the strength of the armor's own systems.
I assume you've heard of the Biscopea? One of the organs implanted? Yeah, it's called the Forge of Strength for a reason. To quote, it "initiates a growth process that ultimately causes the adolescent human male implanted with the organ to reach the massive height and gain the superhuman strength and muscle density of the Astartes".
So regardless of if power armour does provide strength or not, the Space Marine must still be stronger than a normal man, obviously to the degree of getting S4 in the game (yes, game abstraction, I'm aware, but it does tell us that there is a real strength there, and that Sisters, even when in the same armour, have a weaker strength). Therefore, it's not illogical to assume that, even IF power armour gives strength bonuses, the greatest part of a Space Marine's strength comes from his organs and body.
Obviosuly, Power Armor doesn't work as mecha suits. Is Armour afterall.
The Crisis Suits or the Centurion Suits, those are the kind of thing that if they are shut down, the wearer just can't move. But you see Adeptas Sororitas with Power Armour or human Inquisitors with Power Armour, and it is said that Power Armour adds to the strenght of the wearer, don't just substitutes it.
And, no-space marines wearing power armour lack the Black Caparece, so they can't use Power Armour to their full potential, more like a second skin.
Is not part of the lore that a Power Armour don't make a Space Marine Slower or less agile, in fact, it just add to them? Because of the Black Caparace.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Also a further note but having your female super soldiers still have a female body shape (wide hips, smaller shoulders) is laughable as it's this body structure which leads to much of the disparity of strength between the sexes. Wide hips only exist for birthing the enormous bloated skulls of human babies and constant injection of 'roids and hormones from childhood should result in a "female" that looks nothing like the typical woman or could be described as feminine.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Sgt_Smudge wrote: However, look at some of the other Scouts - very muscular and hopped up.
Not to mention that Space Marines are all very tall (seven feet is average) and must still be in proportion. Alternatively, look at images of other Space Marines outside of armour - not just Scouts.
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They look VERY bulky to me.
Again, all your examples are Scouts, who may not have undergone the full transformation of the Biscopea. Two of my examples are full Space Marines, and are very large.
Why would a woman not look the same?
Sorry I haven't read the whole conversation and I don't know how relevant it is but you can have a character that looks both VERY bulky and distinctly feminine.
Glory is great at this :
http://mooncalfe.deviantart.com/gallery/33270379/Glory (That's not even her final form btw ^^)
Or, Mountain Girl?
(nsfw nudity)
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Again, what is definitively MALE about Space Marines? For me, masculine =/= male. A woman can be masculine. A man can be feminine. Agender can be either. That's just a verb, a descriptive. Actual male or female though - what makes a Space Marine male? Genetalia? Do they have them? Their choice of pronoun? If it is choice of pronoun, then can a disembodied head of a former man identify under female nouns? Are they then a female?*
Masculine doesn't equal male in my opinion too. Male gender identity is built on three things, first a sexual phenotype (or birth sex if you prefer), all Space Marines have the birth sex of men, personnal identity (AKA what you consider yourself to be), Space Marines refer to themselves using male pronouns and titles like Brother or he thus they identify as males (making themselves cisgendered individuals), the third element is perceived sexual identity (the gender people asign to you based on your apperance). Space Marines look like men, have the male birth sex and identify themselves as men. Thus their are men not agender or transgender or women. The have no characteristic associate with agenderism or transgenderism. Being of masculine birth sex is even stated as a fundamental requirement to become a Space Marine. Thus, I identify Space Marines as men (and "manly men" at that).
On the point of behavior. That we like it or not (I don't), certain behavior and traits are strongly associated with masculinity and the fact of being a men while other are the reverse. GW never intendend to redefine, subvert or criticise this cultural trait of the modern Western world. The inspiration for the Space Marine sub-cultures are drawn from historical hyper-masculine warrior societies like Holy Orders of knights like the Templar and the Teutonnic from wich they derive some aesthetic elements, rank, organisation name, weapons and names and from Greeko-Romans from which they derive names, organisation and recruitment startegies. The values of the Space Marines Chapters are the same values vehiculated by those historical institutions. These values were also associated with men. Women in those societies (and still the case in ours to a lesser extant) are proscribed, ridiculed or considered as weird and abnormal for espousing those values and practices. GW wanted the Space Marine to be considered "manly" by their consumer base. Its part of their marketing. The absence of Space Marine women isn't accidental either. It was a clear decision from the company with the clear intent of making this army the paragon of "manlyness" and they think that Space Marine women would dillute this. Many people on this thread agree with that statement.
Yes, Space Marines women should be considered masculine. "Masculine women" are very cool in my opinion and in no way different in behavior and values than a "manly men".
My entire argument is to adress that of Deadshot who said that Space Marines are agender war machines. No, in my opinion, they are men and while they are warrior supreme, they are capable and interested by much more. While they could have some traits of agender people, like not associating or carring about gender at all, representation of Space Marines in novels doesn't allow us to see how they see themselves. They do believe to be transhumen, but from Loken appreciation of masculine beauty, he seems to lop Space Marines in the group of men since he appreciate the beauty of Little Horus, Horus himself and that of Tarvitz, but fail to appreciate that of Keeler and the other female remembrencer due to him having little experience with women. Thus, we can extrapolate and declare that Space Marines perceive themselves to be men, but not entirely humen men. This would make them cisgender in the broad sense of the term and not agender. They are asexual thought (except maybe some Space Wolves).
Absolutely, hence why I'm asking for a confirmation of love. Not interpretation - actual love, as far as it can be confirmed.
My best example would be the relationship of Captain Ka'dai and his Apothecary which was described as "maybe more than brotherhood" by some member of the Chapter. This was in reaction to the Apothecary exilling himself in the wasteland to die after the death of Ka'dai. This would be, in my opinion, a clear case of romantic suicide. We could place Loken's best friend (I don't remember his name) anguish at the idea of dying far from Loken in the same category. So, yeah, platonic love is something more than possible in my opinion.
I absolutely agree that they're not 100% war machine, but their purpose, their intended goal, is as that. What they do in their off-time, as laid out by the 4th (?) edition Codex, is up to them, but if that interferes in their primary goal, then they're not a very good Space Marine, are they?
It's like being a builder nowadays, but you get distracted from your work birdwatching. Your job, your primary purpose in your society, is as a builder, but you can still birdwatch in your spare time.
Still - this has no bearing on gender. Still, as long as we agree that one's tastes are not defined by gender.
What about choice of identification? If a canon Space Marine identified as female, are they still a Space Marine? After all, you did just imply that ONLY men could have the "apperance, values and behaviors" of a Space Marine.
That's actually a good question for you. I would say yes, a Space Marine who identify as a women would still be a Space Marine (and would be a women). That could break GW position of only men can be Space Marines though. Values and behavior, no, apperance, yes, considering that they dress in masculine fashion and don't go through any form of gender reassignment therapy they do look like men. Does it mean they are, not necessarly, but it gives strong hints than yes.
However, look at some of the other Scouts - very muscular and hopped up.
Not to mention that Space Marines are all very tall (seven feet is average) and must still be in proportion. Alternatively, look at images of other Space Marines outside of armour - not just Scouts.
Spoiler:
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They look VERY bulky to me.
Again, all your examples are Scouts, who may not have undergone the full transformation of the Biscopea. Two of my examples are full Space Marines, and are very large.
Why would a woman not look the same?
They do look strong, some more than others. You wanted me to show non-bulky Space Marines and I did. Did I say they couldn't be bulky? No, I said their look is varied. Some are others not so much. Some are probable smaller than 7 foot tall (the average of the Space Marines) while others are much bigger than that. All Space Marines look strong. Space Marine men look strong, some look even like musclebound monsters, others much less so. Space Marine would look strong. Strong women don't look like men. They look like women. Some will look very feminine, others not just like for the male counterparts. Some images of Blood Angels picture them as very feminine in terms of facial traits, Sanguinius is a prime example of that.
But why based on men and women? If we can have the more slight frames of women, why can men of a slight bent be taken in? Wouldn't they look more like the women then? What about women who outstrength those men? Would they not look like the typical men?
You can look feminine and be extremely strong. Even stronger than a men. I know several women who are stronger than men who are themselves quite strong. They don't look like men at all. I have clearly mentionned that Space Marine men can have a more slender shape and proved it with artworks. There is body diversity within the Adeptus Astartes that you include women or not.
If you want different frames and variety in your Space Marines, like more athletic ones, then why stratify that on gender? At the moment, you're implying that men MUST be big, and women MUST be more slight, when there are notable exceptions either side.
I don't stratify be gender. I firmly believe there is variety in the apperence and performance of Space Marine men within the same Chapter. The same would applie to Space Marine women.
If strength wasn't a factor, then why would the Biscopea be implanted?
Because Space Marines are a power fantasy. They are akin to superheroes. They are not an acurate representation of how a futuristic super soldier would look like. Strength in a superhero is important. The good thing is that Space Marine women would be inhumanly strong thanks to the Biscopea and their power armor.
If strength wasn't a factor, then why even screen for the strongest recruits, if you're only after their hardiness? Lucius was still very strong, and his agility came from skill - not from his lack of strength or biology. One can be skilled and strong - it's not mutually exclusive.
Of course, the very best Space Marines will be strong, fast, resistent, determined, charismatic, agile, flexible, stealthy, perceptive, intelligent, adaptable and wise in equal amount.
Except that women are useless in the current tests, because they simply can't survive it. They don't meld with the geneseed. Why bother having female recruits when you know that they won't make it?
Indeed, now there is no use to invite girls in Space Marine recruitment tests, but should there be women amongst the New Marines, they will be. Right now, though, if I was in command of a Space Marine Chapter I would still test girls and pick those who would be Space Marine worthy and train them as Chapter serfs and squires this way, my Chapter would have a lot of talent.
Real world women bodybuilders, heavyweights and welterweights are not pumped full of foreign organs, hormones, drugs and quite literally transformed into superhumans. Even male bodybuilders wouldn't necessarily look like Space Marines, but as we see in the art, we DO see Space Marines looking like bodybuilders. Therefore, it's not unreasonable to assume that a woman who undergoes the same procedure would look the same.
Considering that Space Marine men currently look like real bodybuilder, heavyweight and welterweigths male athlete, why would Space Marine women, look any different than real bodybuilder, heavyweight, welterweight female athlete?
Is your vision plausible, certainly. Is mine also plausible certainly. Mine has the extra virtue of bringing more to the hobby and remaining more consistent. If hormonal change make women turned into giant creature almost identical to men, why arent men looking like half gorilla creatures (like smaller Ogryn for example)?
I don't see a difference in aesthetic at all - given that it takes the implantation procedure to turn a 12 year old into something that would make the strongest man ashamed, why would a 12 year old girl not turn out the same?
If you're suggesting that there's different brackets of a Space Marine's strength, then why would that be stratified on gender?
Since the adult version of a Space Marine looks just like a highly trained adult men, an adult Space Marine women would probably look like a highly trained women. The potential bracket and difference was if you wanted to preserve gender dimorphism of normal human which makes men larger, heavier and stronger on average, but women more agile and perceptive.
Scuplted abs means nothing about their sexuality? It might just be their choice of art - it may mean nothing else.
Saying someone is "beautiful" doesn't have to imply sexuality or even love. I can look at a sword and say "dang, that's a beautiful weapon" - it doesn't mean I want to stick it somewhere or have feelings for it.
No, but considering this particular art style is borrowed from greek warrior culture, a culture that emphasis homosexual love and pederasty as part of team building and military life, it makes me raise an eyebrow. That's also the point of homoerotism, it's all suggestive and nothing concrete. They glorify male beauty and strength and bathe in the most viril and macho institution in the 40K universe. The inuendo are far too easy to make. There's a reason why "Space Marines are gay" jokes are so common.
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Actually, a Tactical Marine is expected to do double duty - hence that they are only promoted to Tactical when they've mastered both shooting and assault.
Yes, but one of this double duty is more important on average than the other and that's shooting as proven by their standard equipment.
But, going back to your point on women being in the lower tier of Space Marine strength, would that not mean that there are men in that category too? If so, then why do you need female marines when male ones could also fit that slim look you prefer? Would that not be enough for personalisation? What specifically about women would grant that? Boobplate? Long hair?
Yes, in pure terms of variety of models it would be enough to have more variety in body representation amongst men to bring more aethetic choices and personalisation. Of course, simply making lighter and slimer male Space Marines would not bring all the other points bellow. Idealy, I would go for both. Slimer Space Marines AND female Space Marines. That way I can make nimble guys and gals in addition to the super buff guys and gals.
Is that worth rewriting the lore of the standard Space Marines? Could those same Amazonians not be achieved through Catachans (who certainly fit the aesthetic) or Sisters of Battle - perhaps Sisters recruited from a planet like Catachan?
I am only talking about the New Marine. Not standard Space Marines. Personnaly, I don't have any special attachment the details of the canon of 40K. I don't mind the idea that some Orks might not be green, some Eldar might worship chaos, some Tyranid might hold and cultivate planets (or at least live in ecological balance there), or some Space Marines are women and operate in Chapters that count more than a 1000 Space Marines. These are rather small details to me. So yes, I wouldn't bat an eye at this change, but I can understand your love for such little details.
To answer your question, no Sisters of Battle from a jungle world wouldn't cut it for me. I love Sisters of Battle, but for different reasons than Space Marines.
Are you suggesting that ONLY Space Marines can be macho? That Sisters of Battle can't possess the same traits?
After all the only actual difference, aside from faith and doctrine, is that Space Marines are genetically engineered and rare, and Sister are not genetically engineered and are more common. Aside from those two features, they are the same - monogender factions that wield bolters and power armour, fighting for the Imperium fanatically and with great skill.
Is genetic modification necessary for the "Vasquez"?
You might want to review the tropes of SoB. They are the epidemy of the rather sexist and conventional heroine. Sisters of Battle are built to lose with grace. Martyrdom is at the core of their identity. Space Marines are meant to win and almost constantly do in novels and stories. SoB are highly sexualised both in the fluff (they used to be bodyguards and sex toys for a tyrant) and in models (the very obvious armored lingery and boob plate style). Sisters of Battle are also rarer than Space Marines. The last estimate of their total force was around 50K, far from 1 000 000. Sisters of Battle are penitent, value humility and belong to the Sisterhood which mostly provide care (education, medecine and religious service) to the population. This is completly opposed to machismo which define itself (amongst other thing) by pride and bravado. Some Chapter are more penitent and humble than others of course, but none like the Sisters of Battle. Sisters of Battle are used as support character to Space Marines in the setting, only very rarely as heroes of a story (or as a feared main antagonist). They have been used at least twice as victims to spurn the real heroes to greater feats of bravery. They are also "worfed" more frequently. SoB are a very feminine army and not only because its made of exclusively of women. The two armies are very different in term of style.
Space Marines aren't the ONLY macho army in the Imperium. The Imperial Guard also is and, yes, even the Sisters of Battle have a few macho elements (like Saint Mina and the Bloody Rose Order). The fact is that the Adeptus Astartes are the MOST macho of them all and the Sister of Battle the least. If you want a clearly macho character, you better search amongst Space Marines than Sisters. Sisters of Battle are too sexualised and not macho enough in general to make place for all the subtypes and styles of "macho women" that Space Marine women could bring. Guard women could make good macho women character too.
Judging from many responses, it seems that this one isn't widely supported.
Indeed, but since its not mandatory, why deprive the minority from its like since it comes at no cost to yours? The same goes for the entire issue of New Space Marine women. If you don't want them in your army, you can declare that your army doesn't have any. If you want a lot you can, if you want a few you can to. Plus, if you have variety between slightly more slender and slightly bigger marines you can quadrupal the changes you can make to your Space Marines (Big male, big female, small male and small female instead of the current one size fits all or two with only male).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/11 21:34:32
Sorry I haven't read the whole conversation and I don't know how relevant it is but you can have a character that looks both VERY bulky and distinctly feminine.
Glory is great at this :
http://mooncalfe.deviantart.com/gallery/33270379/Glory (That's not even her final form btw ^^)
Or, Mountain Girl?
(nsfw nudity)
Of all the things that are distinct about Glory, femininity is not one of them.
H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
Ruin- It's official, we've ran out of things to talk about on Dakka. Close the site. We're done.
mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
For anybody who desire female Space Marines, I have a good message for you.
Behold:
The Left Marines, successor chapter of Pretty Marines, have tradition that once they are promoted to the rank of Tactical Marine, they start to identify as woman, despite being physically man.
Now you can have female space marines, that are possible in current canon. Case closed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/11 22:29:18
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
Hawky wrote: For anybody who desire female Space Marines, I have a good message for you.
Behold:
The Left Marines, successor chapter of Pretty Marines, have tradition that once they are promoted to the rank of Tactical Marine, they start to identify as woman, despite being physically man.
Now you can have female space marines, that are possible in current canon. Case closed.
You claim they are 'Left Marines', but what if they were right all along?
In fact, once they are done there will be nothing left at all...
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So do we get male Sisters Of Battle if we get female Space Marines?
Nobody ever answers that question.
Nobody asked because some of us don't like putting well established fluff on the chopping block.
H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
Ruin- It's official, we've ran out of things to talk about on Dakka. Close the site. We're done.
mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So do we get male Sisters Of Battle if we get female Space Marines?
Nobody ever answers that question.
Nobody asked because some of us don't like putting well established fluff on the chopping block.
Personally, that all the figures the Sisters of Battle obey are male is to me even more "offensive" that only male Space Marines But whell, thats their fluff. The Brides of the Emperor were originally the sex-bodyguards of Vandire.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So do we get male Sisters Of Battle if we get female Space Marines?
Nobody ever answers that question.
Didn't I answered that question with a yes to you before?
If you really want a "Sister of Battle" men, you can have one. Ironically you can already have some male units within a classic SoB army with priests and Deathcult assassins.
Personnaly, I created in headcanon, (and will produce a fandex expension for them) a male equivalent for Sisters of Battle called the Brotherhood of Thor formed by the former companion and bodyguards of Sebastien Thor during the Reign of Blood. They still operate within the Ecclesiarchy as warrior-priests and maintain a strong rivalry and distrust of Sister of Battle.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So do we get male Sisters Of Battle if we get female Space Marines?
Nobody ever answers that question.
Well see the difference here is the fluff reasoning.. of why each is single Gender
Sisters of Battle, are all Female as an exploit of the Charter that the Church cannot have any 'Men at Arms'
Spacemarines, are all Male.. because.. Reasons unclear... Appears to be a No Girls Allowed Club.....
And then somebody decides that they just said military and the militant just aren't a military but a defense force or something stupid like that.
The point is that we are messing with fluff to mess with it at that point. Girls get their "Girls Only Club" with Adeptus Soritas, and boys get their "Boys Only Club" with Adeptus Astartes. Then we have all the rest of the armies which have variance. If that isn't shown in the model range that isn't too bad. I mean it really is only Guard that need better representation, and for the Sisters to get a new model range.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Hawky wrote: For anybody who desire female Space Marines, I have a good message for you.
Behold:
The Left Marines, successor chapter of Pretty Marines, have tradition that once they are promoted to the rank of Tactical Marine, they start to identify as woman, despite being physically man.
Now you can have female space marines, that are possible in current canon. Case closed.
You claim they are 'Left Marines', but what if they were right all along?
In fact, once they are done there will be nothing left at all...
But it's OK, because then won't everything be all right?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/11 23:52:36
Hawky wrote: For anybody who desire female Space Marines, I have a good message for you.
Behold:
The Left Marines, successor chapter of Pretty Marines, have tradition that once they are promoted to the rank of Tactical Marine, they start to identify as woman, despite being physically man.
Now you can have female space marines, that are possible in current canon. Case closed.
You claim they are 'Left Marines', but what if they were right all along?
In fact, once they are done there will be nothing left at all...
But it's OK, because then won't everything be all right?
If there is no left, then where is right? Does the right become the center? Feth, I'm nose bleeding. These are too complicated questions for me.
Before this thread Is locked, I want to say that, besides some people being very heated and bringing here politics etc... to me this has been a constructive discussion!
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Galas wrote: Before this thread Is locked, I want to say that, besides some people being very heated and bringing here politics etc... to me this has been a constructive discussion!
I'll dare count myself amongst those whose arguments and points were constructive in your opinion and say thank you.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So do we get male Sisters Of Battle if we get female Space Marines?
Nobody ever answers that question.
Nobody asked because some of us don't like putting well established fluff on the chopping block.
Personally, that all the figures the Sisters of Battle obey are male is to me even more "offensive" that only male Space Marines But whell, thats their fluff. The Brides of the Emperor were originally the sex-bodyguards of Vandire.
Actually the Sororitas pretty much operate on their own and bow to Inquisitors of the Ordo Hereticus if they bow to anyone else at all.
H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
Ruin- It's official, we've ran out of things to talk about on Dakka. Close the site. We're done.
mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
Galas wrote: Before this thread Is locked, I want to say that, besides some people being very heated and bringing here politics etc... to me this has been a constructive discussion!
I'll dare count myself amongst those whose arguments and points were constructive in your opinion and say thank you.
Yeah, maybe I don't agree with you in all of what you said, but to me, when people bring their opinions with arguments to back them and in a polite manner, even more in heated debates like this, they receive all my respect!
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So do we get male Sisters Of Battle if we get female Space Marines?
Nobody ever answers that question.
Nobody asked because some of us don't like putting well established fluff on the chopping block.
Personally, that all the figures the Sisters of Battle obey are male is to me even more "offensive" that only male Space Marines But whell, thats their fluff. The Brides of the Emperor were originally the sex-bodyguards of Vandire.
Actually the Sororitas pretty much operate on their own and bow to Inquisitors of the Ordo Hereticus if they bow to anyone else at all.
Maybe my fluff in the matter is a little rusty, but I remember them being the weaponized arm of the Ordo Hereticus and in general the Ecclesiarchy, but you are correct. Is more that the Special Characters of the Ecclesiarchy are all men, but for no real reason, they could be female.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/12 00:23:22
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
The Special Characters are all men, but women priests definitely exist in the fluff. Now only if GW could make some female models
H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
Ruin- It's official, we've ran out of things to talk about on Dakka. Close the site. We're done.
mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
bag!"
Neutran Panzergrenadiers, 
Ostrakan Skitarii Legions, 
Order of the Silver Hand
