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Made in us
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 Galas wrote:


Yeah, maybe I don't agree with you in all of what you said, but to me, when people bring their opinions with arguments to back them and in a polite manner, even more in heated debates like this, they receive all my respect!




I agree. Epronovost, you and I agree on some things and disagree on others, but I respect the reasoning behind your opinions and the way in which you presented them. I can honestly say that I would be happier with female Space Marines if someone like you were giving them due consideration.

 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Tactical_Spam wrote:
The Special Characters are all men, but women priests definitely exist in the fluff. Now only if GW could make some female models


I think that this might have changed. In the Codex Millitarum Tempestus its mention that only boys with great faith are selected to become priests, girls with similar traits are sent to "civilian" branches of the Sisterhood. Maybe that concern only Scholam students though. There are a lot of priests who aren't from the Scholam.

PS: That's a huge compliment from you Luciferian, thank you.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/12 00:35:56


 
   
Made in au
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Female space marines already exist, they are called the Sisters of Battle. All that needs to happen is for them to have a supported and good quality model line and then thats that.

40k:
Salamanders - 3500 points
Inquisition - 500
30k:
Salamanders - 4000
Imperial Militia - 1500
 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 Galas wrote:
epronovost wrote:
 Galas wrote:
Before this thread Is locked, I want to say that, besides some people being very heated and bringing here politics etc... to me this has been a constructive discussion!


I'll dare count myself amongst those whose arguments and points were constructive in your opinion and say thank you.


Yeah, maybe I don't agree with you in all of what you said, but to me, when people bring their opinions with arguments to back them and in a polite manner, even more in heated debates like this, they receive all my respect!


Spoiler:
 Tactical_Spam wrote:
 Galas wrote:
 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So do we get male Sisters Of Battle if we get female Space Marines?

Nobody ever answers that question.


Nobody asked because some of us don't like putting well established fluff on the chopping block.


Personally, that all the figures the Sisters of Battle obey are male is to me even more "offensive" that only male Space Marines
But whell, thats their fluff. The Brides of the Emperor were originally the sex-bodyguards of Vandire.


Actually the Sororitas pretty much operate on their own and bow to Inquisitors of the Ordo Hereticus if they bow to anyone else at all.


Maybe my fluff in the matter is a little rusty, but I remember them being the weaponized arm of the Ordo Hereticus and in general the Ecclesiarchy, but you are correct. Is more that the Special Characters of the Ecclesiarchy are all men, but for no real reason, they could be female.


well the SOBs had a bit of a spcecial character shortage. if GW revives em they'd benifit from a cannoess character or three

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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 Vulkan Fran'cis wrote:
Female space marines already exist, they are called the Sisters of Battle. All that needs to happen is for them to have a supported and good quality model line and then thats that.


Everyone is waiting. Maybe 8th will be their time to shine.

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I'm calling it now. The SoB are going to be completely redesigned. Their new name is going to be the sisterhood of the traveling battle pants. Their new motto will be eat, prey, love, purge. And their new color scheme Wil be 50 shades of grey.

I'm joking people please don't take this seriously.

Babylon a mosh up the sea and fear him the Rasta mon. 
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Of all the things that are distinct about Glory, femininity is not one of them.

Well she definitely looks like a woman, not a man.
She is definitely too strong to be a space marine though. Maybe she could be more like the equivalent of a primarch?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So do we get male Sisters Of Battle if we get female Space Marines?

Nobody ever answers that question.

Nah people keep answering that rhetorical questions that is only motivated by whataboutism ^^.

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
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Astonished of Heck

 Sensual_T_Rex wrote:
I'm calling it now. The SoB are going to be completely redesigned. Their new name is going to be the sisterhood of the traveling battle pants. Their new motto will be eat, prey, love, purge. And their new color scheme Wil be 50 shades of grey.

I'm joking people please don't take this seriously.

I don't know, it certainly sounds appropriate. Good name, by the way. If I didn't already have my own plans for one (if they are ever released in plastic), I would totally take that one up.

At least I can set it up in Dawn of War...

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
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Monticello, IN

I'm more curious how high the prices will jump if they do a new sprue to accommodate female parts. I mean, since the 3rd Ed. Marine kit has come out, we've had a few retools/new molds from there, correct? I don't remember anything being unserviceable from the old sprues except the lack of special/heavy/CC weapons. One sprue could have accommodated that without retooling the entire kit and caboodle. I don't care what they do with the modern rules anymore, I care if they drive the prices up constantly for no reason.

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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
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Eh, I'm still in that "eh, nah, don't want femarines" boat.

If we do have femarines, from an aesthetic perspective I'd be happiest if, well, they looked exactly like male marines. If you look at high level female lifters, they don't look tremendously feminine to begin with and are still a long way behind the men (the world record holding female olympic lifter weighs 110kg, but was still lifting less than the world record holding 69kg class male). So once you genetically enhance the females I imagine they're going to just look like male Space Marines anyway.

Unfortunately for biology, the features that make a human physically strong aren't the feminine ones. Smaller torso, narrower shoulders, smaller size, glass jaw, delicate breast tissue, hips that are proportionally broader than the mid section and legs.

I know the IG have females in the story, but even there I prefer the aesthetic of all male IG. If GW decide to bring in female guard, fine, they're in the fluff, but when I started collecting IG I wasn't even aware of that fluff and was more than happy with an army made of nothing but buff dudes. I like it because IG are some of the weediest fighters in the galaxy, but they still come across as big buff well trained dudes, so it puts in to perspective just how powerful everything else is. IG act as a point of reference for the rest of 40k.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/14 02:32:48


 
   
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Big wall of text alert

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Sorry I haven't read the whole conversation and I don't know how relevant it is but you can have a character that looks both VERY bulky and distinctly feminine.
Glory is great at this :
http://mooncalfe.deviantart.com/gallery/33270379/Glory
(That's not even her final form btw ^^)
Or, Mountain Girl?
(nsfw nudity)
Good point, but if I'm honest, I don't really see anything feminine in either. The boobs I can ignore safely for the sake of Marine discussion, as it's likely that they would be removed or bound by cloth or suchlike. The hair isn't exactly gender exclusive (men can have long hair), which leaves the waist. Frankly, that waist is incredibly tight and I don't see how such a waist would exist on a Space Marine, female or not.

I just don't see femininity in that art.

epronovost wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


Again, what is definitively MALE about Space Marines? For me, masculine =/= male. A woman can be masculine. A man can be feminine. Agender can be either. That's just a verb, a descriptive. Actual male or female though - what makes a Space Marine male? Genetalia? Do they have them? Their choice of pronoun? If it is choice of pronoun, then can a disembodied head of a former man identify under female nouns? Are they then a female?*


Masculine doesn't equal male in my opinion too. Male gender identity is built on three things, first a sexual phenotype (or birth sex if you prefer), all Space Marines have the birth sex of men, personnal identity (AKA what you consider yourself to be), Space Marines refer to themselves using male pronouns and titles like Brother or he thus they identify as males (making themselves cisgendered individuals), the third element is perceived sexual identity (the gender people asign to you based on your apperance). Space Marines look like men, have the male birth sex and identify themselves as men. Thus their are men not agender or transgender or women. The have no characteristic associate with agenderism or transgenderism. Being of masculine birth sex is even stated as a fundamental requirement to become a Space Marine. Thus, I identify Space Marines as men (and "manly men" at that).
Space Marines have the birth sex of men, yes. However, they are then chemically castrated. Their birth sex means nothing when you're pumped full of Astartes implants and hormones.

So, male pronouns define them as male? How about I give male pronouns to a car? To a toaster? Is that toaster male? Is that car male? How about a snail? Snails are hermaphroditic - they have no male/female.

Sexual identity: So, you say if it looks like something, then it is that sex? So, a sculpture of a woman is an actual woman, and has a sex? How about transsexuals? Some can quite easily look like the opposite gender. However, just because they look like X gender, they ARE X gender?

To clarify, let's take a robot, or statue. I give male pronouns to it, and it looks like a male. It's birth gender means nothing, either because it has none, or because it has been removed/altered. Is that statue/robot a man?

On the point of behavior. That we like it or not (I don't), certain behavior and traits are strongly associated with masculinity and the fact of being a men while other are the reverse. GW never intendend to redefine, subvert or criticise this cultural trait of the modern Western world. The inspiration for the Space Marine sub-cultures are drawn from historical hyper-masculine warrior societies like Holy Orders of knights like the Templar and the Teutonnic from wich they derive some aesthetic elements, rank, organisation name, weapons and names and from Greeko-Romans from which they derive names, organisation and recruitment startegies. The values of the Space Marines Chapters are the same values vehiculated by those historical institutions. These values were also associated with men. Women in those societies (and still the case in ours to a lesser extant) are proscribed, ridiculed or considered as weird and abnormal for espousing those values and practices. GW wanted the Space Marine to be considered "manly" by their consumer base. Its part of their marketing. The absence of Space Marine women isn't accidental either. It was a clear decision from the company with the clear intent of making this army the paragon of "manlyness" and they think that Space Marine women would dillute this. Many people on this thread agree with that statement.
So you're saying that women can't be masculine? You're saying that there's absolutely no way that there could ever be a feminine Space Marine (say, with a love of art and expression?), or that a masculine Sister of Battle is impossible?

Yes, Space Marines women should be considered masculine. "Masculine women" are very cool in my opinion and in no way different in behavior and values than a "manly men".
But only Space Marines in the entire 40k universe should be masculine?

My entire argument is to adress that of Deadshot who said that Space Marines are agender war machines. No, in my opinion, they are men and while they are warrior supreme, they are capable and interested by much more. While they could have some traits of agender people, like not associating or carring about gender at all, representation of Space Marines in novels doesn't allow us to see how they see themselves. They do believe to be transhumen, but from Loken appreciation of masculine beauty, he seems to lop Space Marines in the group of men since he appreciate the beauty of Little Horus, Horus himself and that of Tarvitz, but fail to appreciate that of Keeler and the other female remembrencer due to him having little experience with women. Thus, we can extrapolate and declare that Space Marines perceive themselves to be men, but not entirely humen men. This would make them cisgender in the broad sense of the term and not agender. They are asexual thought (except maybe some Space Wolves).
They percieve themselves with male pronouns. That doesn't make them men. It makes them agender, who use masculine pronouns.
They are transhuman, we are told that as an outright fact in the canon.
Again - Loken can appreciate the beauty of Little Horus, Horus and Tarvitz, but at the same time we also see Space Marines appreciate the beauty of war, their wargear, destruction, etc etc. Is a bolter a symbol of masculine beauty?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Absolutely, hence why I'm asking for a confirmation of love. Not interpretation - actual love, as far as it can be confirmed.


My best example would be the relationship of Captain Ka'dai and his Apothecary which was described as "maybe more than brotherhood" by some member of the Chapter. This was in reaction to the Apothecary exilling himself in the wasteland to die after the death of Ka'dai. This would be, in my opinion, a clear case of romantic suicide. We could place Loken's best friend (I don't remember his name) anguish at the idea of dying far from Loken in the same category. So, yeah, platonic love is something more than possible in my opinion.
Again, that isn't confirmation. Speculation, yes, in universe speculation even better. But it's not confirmation, which is what I asked for.

Torgaddon's lament with that can also be attributed with brotherhood and friendship - not necessarily love.

If I see canon love, actually confirmed, I'll accept your point.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

I absolutely agree that they're not 100% war machine, but their purpose, their intended goal, is as that. What they do in their off-time, as laid out by the 4th (?) edition Codex, is up to them, but if that interferes in their primary goal, then they're not a very good Space Marine, are they?

It's like being a builder nowadays, but you get distracted from your work birdwatching. Your job, your primary purpose in your society, is as a builder, but you can still birdwatch in your spare time.

Still - this has no bearing on gender. Still, as long as we agree that one's tastes are not defined by gender.


We completly agree on those points!
Brilliant!

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

What about choice of identification? If a canon Space Marine identified as female, are they still a Space Marine? After all, you did just imply that ONLY men could have the "apperance, values and behaviors" of a Space Marine.


That's actually a good question for you. I would say yes, a Space Marine who identify as a women would still be a Space Marine (and would be a women). That could break GW position of only men can be Space Marines though. Values and behavior, no, apperance, yes, considering that they dress in masculine fashion and don't go through any form of gender reassignment therapy they do look like men. Does it mean they are, not necessarly, but it gives strong hints than yes.
So, hints.
In which way do they dress masculinely? Armour? FeMarines would wear the same armour most likely. Their robes outside of armour? Females wear robes too.

Gender re-assignment? In what way? They're already chemically castrated, why would they need to have an artificial vagina implanted? They're not even biologically male per say - only that they were once male, and are now completely castrated. If anything, they are agender, leaving us with (in some views) Male, Female and Astartes, as a gender to itself.
After all, they are PostHuman.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

However, look at some of the other Scouts - very muscular and hopped up.
Not to mention that Space Marines are all very tall (seven feet is average) and must still be in proportion. Alternatively, look at images of other Space Marines outside of armour - not just Scouts.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

They look VERY bulky to me.

Again, all your examples are Scouts, who may not have undergone the full transformation of the Biscopea. Two of my examples are full Space Marines, and are very large.
Why would a woman not look the same?


They do look strong, some more than others. You wanted me to show non-bulky Space Marines and I did. Did I say they couldn't be bulky? No, I said their look is varied. Some are others not so much. Some are probable smaller than 7 foot tall (the average of the Space Marines) while others are much bigger than that. All Space Marines look strong. Space Marine men look strong, some look even like musclebound monsters, others much less so. Space Marine would look strong. Strong women don't look like men. They look like women. Some will look very feminine, others not just like for the male counterparts. Some images of Blood Angels picture them as very feminine in terms of facial traits, Sanguinius is a prime example of that.
Sanguinius is a Primarch - not a Space Marine.

So if you admit then that they can be varied, then surely we can have slim males and bulky females?
Again, a strong women =/= not an Astartes. A strong women may not have has all the implants, surgery, therapy to be an Astartes. If we see what that surgery does to a boy, why would it be different for a girl?
If your whole point is "there's different body types", that's great! But then we should have slim Astartes and bulky Astartes - not bulky men and slim girls. Gender should be a non-issue with this.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

But why based on men and women? If we can have the more slight frames of women, why can men of a slight bent be taken in? Wouldn't they look more like the women then? What about women who outstrength those men? Would they not look like the typical men?


You can look feminine and be extremely strong. Even stronger than a men. I know several women who are stronger than men who are themselves quite strong. They don't look like men at all. I have clearly mentionned that Space Marine men can have a more slender shape and proved it with artworks. There is body diversity within the Adeptus Astartes that you include women or not.
Exactly. So if your whole reason for wanting FeMarines is "I want body diversity", you've just admitted that you don't need women for it.

And again, any strong women you know are still not Astartes. Given what we know the procedure does to young boys, why would it make young girls any different physically?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

If you want different frames and variety in your Space Marines, like more athletic ones, then why stratify that on gender? At the moment, you're implying that men MUST be big, and women MUST be more slight, when there are notable exceptions either side.


I don't stratify be gender. I firmly believe there is variety in the apperence and performance of Space Marine men within the same Chapter. The same would applie to Space Marine women.
Just so we agree on that. Therefore, why are women needed for aesthetic difference?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

If strength wasn't a factor, then why would the Biscopea be implanted?


Because Space Marines are a power fantasy. They are akin to superheroes. They are not an acurate representation of how a futuristic super soldier would look like. Strength in a superhero is important. The good thing is that Space Marine women would be inhumanly strong thanks to the Biscopea and their power armor.
Agreed. FeMarines, provided they pass all checks from recruitment, should be just as strong as their male comrades.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

If strength wasn't a factor, then why even screen for the strongest recruits, if you're only after their hardiness? Lucius was still very strong, and his agility came from skill - not from his lack of strength or biology. One can be skilled and strong - it's not mutually exclusive.


Of course, the very best Space Marines will be strong, fast, resistent, determined, charismatic, agile, flexible, stealthy, perceptive, intelligent, adaptable and wise in equal amount.
Precisely. If a girl beats the male competition (and can survive the implantation), then there's no reason she shouldn't be considered.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Except that women are useless in the current tests, because they simply can't survive it. They don't meld with the geneseed. Why bother having female recruits when you know that they won't make it?


Indeed, now there is no use to invite girls in Space Marine recruitment tests, but should there be women amongst the New Marines, they will be. Right now, though, if I was in command of a Space Marine Chapter I would still test girls and pick those who would be Space Marine worthy and train them as Chapter serfs and squires this way, my Chapter would have a lot of talent.
Yes, I don't disagree. However, I'm saying that with the old Astartes, women are useless to test and trial.


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Real world women bodybuilders, heavyweights and welterweights are not pumped full of foreign organs, hormones, drugs and quite literally transformed into superhumans. Even male bodybuilders wouldn't necessarily look like Space Marines, but as we see in the art, we DO see Space Marines looking like bodybuilders. Therefore, it's not unreasonable to assume that a woman who undergoes the same procedure would look the same.


Considering that Space Marine men currently look like real bodybuilder, heavyweight and welterweigths male athlete, why would Space Marine women, look any different than real bodybuilder, heavyweight, welterweight female athlete?

Is your vision plausible, certainly. Is mine also plausible certainly. Mine has the extra virtue of bringing more to the hobby and remaining more consistent. If hormonal change make women turned into giant creature almost identical to men, why arent men looking like half gorilla creatures (like smaller Ogryn for example)?
Males don't look like male bodybuilders because they're male. They look like that because of the construction process of a Space Marine. The sheer amount of drugs and hormones they pump in happens to create that image, only scaled massively upwards.
Women would look the same, because it's not a case of Male-->Male Bodybuilder/Female-->Female Bodybuilder. It's a case of Male-->Astartes physique/Female-->Astartes physique.

What does your bring to the hobby? As you said, the aesthetic differences such as slimness should exist regardless of gender. So what else is there?
How can yours be consistent? I'm saying "they'd look the same". You're saying "they'd look different". How does that promote consistency?

Again, the process isn't proportionate. Let me put it into numbers. 1 is Female. 2 is Male. 6 is Astartes.
In order for a Male to be turned into a Space Marine, it is either multiplied by 3, or 4 is added. You believe that the implantation process is akin to multiplication, so a male is multiplied by three. However, if a female is multiplied by three, they are inferior to a Male Astartes.

I believe it is more akin to an automatic transformation. I believe that 6 is the limit, but the initial recruit is augmented by whatever number needed to reach that limit. Therefore, a male would need 4, but a female would need 5. However, the creation process allows for that, because it makes Astartes all generally equal, up to the limit of the hypothetical 6.

TL;DR - You believe that the implantation process is a multiplying factor. I believe it levels all applicants out to a set value.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

I don't see a difference in aesthetic at all - given that it takes the implantation procedure to turn a 12 year old into something that would make the strongest man ashamed, why would a 12 year old girl not turn out the same?

If you're suggesting that there's different brackets of a Space Marine's strength, then why would that be stratified on gender?


Since the adult version of a Space Marine looks just like a highly trained adult men, an adult Space Marine women would probably look like a highly trained women. The potential bracket and difference was if you wanted to preserve gender dimorphism of normal human which makes men larger, heavier and stronger on average, but women more agile and perceptive.
Again, I beg to differ. I believe that a Space Marine is not reflective of one's previous gender. I believe that "Space Marine" is just the default physical appearance. It just happens to look like a male bodybuilder. That's not because of the original gender.

Take for example, replacing Space Marine with a snail. A male transformed becomes a snail. A female transformed becomes the same snail. There is no gender to these snail - it's just a snail. The gender is meaningless, and they look identical. Now imagine that this snail just happens to look like an adult male bodybuilder. That's how I see Space Marine transformation. The original gender doesn't matter. You all end up looking roughly the same (with hair, eye and skin colour being different).


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

However, I don't think they need anything more than a different head - their brawn should be the same as any other Space Marine.


I would be fine with that personnaly, but it seems more wise to me to make them a stand out a bit more for marketing value, but that's another debate.
But how? You admit that there should be diversity in male Astartes as well? How would women look different?


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Scuplted abs means nothing about their sexuality? It might just be their choice of art - it may mean nothing else.
Saying someone is "beautiful" doesn't have to imply sexuality or even love. I can look at a sword and say "dang, that's a beautiful weapon" - it doesn't mean I want to stick it somewhere or have feelings for it.


No, but considering this particular art style is borrowed from greek warrior culture, a culture that emphasis homosexual love and pederasty as part of team building and military life, it makes me raise an eyebrow. That's also the point of homoerotism, it's all suggestive and nothing concrete. They glorify male beauty and strength and bathe in the most viril and macho institution in the 40K universe. The inuendo are far too easy to make. There's a reason why "Space Marines are gay" jokes are so common.
So you admit then that there's no actual confirmation or evidence to confirm it.
.
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Regardless if it's psuedo-scientific bullgak, it's psuedo-scientific bullgak that's canon.


Since there is no pseudo-scientific explanation for how Space Marine women look like talking about the value of canon is pointless.
Yes, but we can take what we do know about the process, and assume that, despite all different physiques of the applicant men, they all turn out roughly the same, why would women (if they could survive) look any different?


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Actually, a Tactical Marine is expected to do double duty - hence that they are only promoted to Tactical when they've mastered both shooting and assault.


Yes, but one of this double duty is more important on average than the other and that's shooting as proven by their standard equipment.
On average, yes. That still doesn't mean that strength is a negligible factor in a Space Marine's biology.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

But, going back to your point on women being in the lower tier of Space Marine strength, would that not mean that there are men in that category too? If so, then why do you need female marines when male ones could also fit that slim look you prefer? Would that not be enough for personalisation? What specifically about women would grant that? Boobplate? Long hair?


Yes, in pure terms of variety of models it would be enough to have more variety in body representation amongst men to bring more aethetic choices and personalisation. Of course, simply making lighter and slimer male Space Marines would not bring all the other points bellow. Idealy, I would go for both. Slimer Space Marines AND female Space Marines. That way I can make nimble guys and gals in addition to the super buff guys and gals.
So you then admit that the only reason for having females is because of the below points, and not the aesthetic, as you said before?
So, that means that aesthetic is not really a valid reason for difference then.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Is that worth rewriting the lore of the standard Space Marines? Could those same Amazonians not be achieved through Catachans (who certainly fit the aesthetic) or Sisters of Battle - perhaps Sisters recruited from a planet like Catachan?


I am only talking about the New Marine. Not standard Space Marines. Personnaly, I don't have any special attachment the details of the canon of 40K. I don't mind the idea that some Orks might not be green, some Eldar might worship chaos, some Tyranid might hold and cultivate planets (or at least live in ecological balance there), or some Space Marines are women and operate in Chapters that count more than a 1000 Space Marines. These are rather small details to me. So yes, I wouldn't bat an eye at this change, but I can understand your love for such little details.
So really, the lore means nothing to you. That's all fine. However, that doesn't mean your ideas are canon, or that other people need to accept them as such.

However, yes, I do believe that the NuMarines, seeing as we don't know how they're made, easily have the capacity for female members. I don't think they should look too different though, as I have pointed with my above reasons.
OldMarines are, on the other hand, off limits, for canon reasons.

To answer your question, no Sisters of Battle from a jungle world wouldn't cut it for me. I love Sisters of Battle, but for different reasons than Space Marines.
Why wouldn't Sister from a jungle cut it? Let me just affirm, the only difference between Sisters and Space Marines is that one of them is genetically engineered, and the other has divine protection.

Why is genetic engineering so important for these Amazons (who also, funnily enough, were not genetically engineered)?


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Are you suggesting that ONLY Space Marines can be macho? That Sisters of Battle can't possess the same traits?
After all the only actual difference, aside from faith and doctrine, is that Space Marines are genetically engineered and rare, and Sister are not genetically engineered and are more common. Aside from those two features, they are the same - monogender factions that wield bolters and power armour, fighting for the Imperium fanatically and with great skill.

Is genetic modification necessary for the "Vasquez"?


You might want to review the tropes of SoB. They are the epidemy of the rather sexist and conventional heroine.
Or alternatively, I see them as an army of the pious faithful. Their sex means nothing, other than a loophole (showing the underhanded methods of the Imperial Church).

Sisters of Battle are built to lose with grace. Martyrdom is at the core of their identity. Space Marines are meant to win and almost constantly do in novels and stories.
So what about the novels where Space Marines lose?

SoB are highly sexualised both in the fluff (they used to be bodyguards and sex toys for a tyrant) and in models (the very obvious armored lingery and boob plate style).
Sex toys for a tyrant? Could I have a quote on that? I know they served for Vandire, in domestic roles, but to the extent of sex? I'll accept this if I see a quote on it.

Sisters of Battle are also rarer than Space Marines. The last estimate of their total force was around 50K, far from 1000000.
There are 15000 Sisters from the Order of the Martyred Lady in the Calixis Sector ALONE.
I doubt that over 25% of all Sisters are located in one single Sector.

Sisters of Battle are penitent, value humility and belong to the Sisterhood which mostly provide care (education, medecine and religious service) to the population. This is completly opposed to machismo which define itself (amongst other thing) by pride and bravado. Some Chapter are more penitent and humble than others of course, but none like the Sisters of Battle. Sisters of Battle are used as support character to Space Marines in the setting, only very rarely as heroes of a story (or as a feared main antagonist). They have been used at least twice as victims to spurn the real heroes to greater feats of bravery. They are also "worfed" more frequently. SoB are a very feminine army and not only because its made of exclusively of women. The two armies are very different in term of style.
Again, are you saying there's no way that Sisters (who tackle the same threats as the Astartes do WITHOUT all the implants) could ever been seen with bravado and courage?

You say that there are some exceptions for Space Marines (being penitent and humble), so why can't the inverse be true for Sisters?

Again, I believe that Sisters need more lore showing their victories. That's not a rewrite - that's actually making them out as the fierce, dedicated militant wing of the Church.

Space Marines aren't the ONLY macho army in the Imperium. The Imperial Guard also is and, yes, even the Sisters of Battle have a few macho elements (like Saint Mina and the Bloody Rose Order). The fact is that the Adeptus Astartes are the MOST macho of them all and the Sister of Battle the least. If you want a clearly macho character, you better search amongst Space Marines than Sisters. Sisters of Battle are too sexualised and not macho enough in general to make place for all the subtypes and styles of "macho women" that Space Marine women could bring. Guard women could make good macho women character too.
So you freely admit that Sisters can be macho - how then, is the Vasquez stereotype not possible for Sisters? Does the Vasquez NEED to be genetically enhanced? Who's to say that women would even be macho when put in the Adeptus Astartes?

Sisters are sexualised because the only reason they exist in the setting is because of the sex. Canonically, their sex is important. I don't see it as unreasonable to assume that the Ecclesiarchy would show off this sex, emphasising that they can still have female warriors. A taunt, almost - a symbol.

Why are Guardsmen able to be macho and Sisters not? How about Assassins? Sisters of Silence? Is it just all-women armies that can't be macho for you?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Judging from many responses, it seems that this one isn't widely supported.


Indeed, but since its not mandatory, why deprive the minority from its like since it comes at no cost to yours? The same goes for the entire issue of New Space Marine women. If you don't want them in your army, you can declare that your army doesn't have any. If you want a lot you can, if you want a few you can to. Plus, if you have variety between slightly more slender and slightly bigger marines you can quadrupal the changes you can make to your Space Marines (Big male, big female, small male and small female instead of the current one size fits all or two with only male).
So, in the same vein, do you believe that Male Sisters should be a thing? After all, if you don't believe they should be a thing, then you can just say that your Sororitas don't have any males.

Canon exists because of rules in the setting. If you ignore all the setting rules and limits of 40k, what makes it unique? If we ignore setting rules, what stops a Star Wars Death Star coming in and blowing up Terra? What stops the Covenant glassing Macragge? How about Guardsmen Conscripts easily killing Space Marine Chapter Masters in close combat?

If you want to ignore all the rules of the setting, that's up to you. However, it seems that a lot of people want to keep canon. Your minority wants to change the canon - that's not what the majority wants. If you change the canon to allow for normal FeMarines, then that's counter to the majority wishes.

And again - what aesthetic difference would Females bring to the Space Marines? The slim body type is also present in males, as you say, so what else is there?

GodDamUser wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So do we get male Sisters Of Battle if we get female Space Marines?

Nobody ever answers that question.


Well see the difference here is the fluff reasoning.. of why each is single Gender


Sisters of Battle, are all Female as an exploit of the Charter that the Church cannot have any 'Men at Arms'

Spacemarines, are all Male.. because.. Reasons unclear... Appears to be a No Girls Allowed Club.....

The reason is clear. The reason is that geneseed does not work on the female body.
You can ignore that reason all you want, but it's just as valid as "Men aren't allowed to fight for the Church."

Why do you think it's okay to ignore that given circumstance?

Galas wrote:
 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So do we get male Sisters Of Battle if we get female Space Marines?

Nobody ever answers that question.


Nobody asked because some of us don't like putting well established fluff on the chopping block.


Personally, that all the figures the Sisters of Battle obey are male is to me even more "offensive" that only male Space Marines
But whell, thats their fluff. The Brides of the Emperor were originally the sex-bodyguards of Vandire.
Quote for being sex-slaves? I see evidence for them being nurses and servants, but sex-slaves? Could I see a quote for that?

Also, not all the figures the Sisters follow are male. Their Canonesses, female Inquisitors and High Lords are/can be female. In fact, when it comes to female Inquisitors and HIgh Lords, even Space Marines (who are all male) follow orders from.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Of all the things that are distinct about Glory, femininity is not one of them.

Well she definitely looks like a woman, not a man.
She is definitely too strong to be a space marine though. Maybe she could be more like the equivalent of a primarch?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So do we get male Sisters Of Battle if we get female Space Marines?

Nobody ever answers that question.

Nah people keep answering that rhetorical questions that is only motivated by whataboutism ^^.
I don't understand. Why is it acceptable to ignore Space Marine fluff to have female Marines, but not okay to ignore Sisters fluff to have male Sororitas?


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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Nah people keep answering that rhetorical questions that is only motivated by whataboutism ^^.
I don't understand. Why is it acceptable to ignore Space Marine fluff to have female Marines, but not okay to ignore Sisters fluff to have male Sororitas?

I don't understand either. How is saying “We don't need to add male models in the Sisters army because there already are some” interpreted by you as saying “It's not okay to ignore Sisters's fluff to add male models in their army”?

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Id rather them throw some female heads/arms/etc into whatever the new guard kit will be, and bring sororitas to the forefront a bit more, rather than arbitrarily saying women can be space marines now, fluff be damned.

The people clamboring for female marines seems to be a small subset of the people clamboring for sisters... so...

 warboss wrote:
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Exaclty why not have Marines as the 'All-male army' then have Sisters as the'All-Female' army, then have mechanicus, guard, inquistion and all other aspects of the imperium go the mixed gender route.

In the case of Xenos, just add more mixed groups in Eldar. The other races either dont make it obvious or just dont have them.

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 Vulkan Fran'cis wrote:
Exaclty why not have Marines as the 'All-male army' then have Sisters as the'All-Female' army, then have mechanicus, guard, inquistion and all other aspects of the imperium go the mixed gender route.

In the case of Xenos, just add more mixed groups in Eldar. The other races either dont make it obvious or just dont have them.


Are the Mechanicum even human enough for us to distinguish male from female?

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 Vulkan Fran'cis wrote:
Exaclty why not have Marines as the 'All-male army' then have Sisters as the'All-Female' army...


Plastic Space Marine infantry kits: 23 (includes Deathwatch/GK, doesn't include "kit X with a conversion frame" or "two of kit Y in one box").

Plastic Sisters of Battle infantry kits: 0

(Personally I'd be happier if the Sisters got a real Codex and a couple of plastic kits (seriously, GW, you need two (Retributors/Dominions/Celestians/Sisters and an updated tank that doesn't come with two pounds of solid pewter chunks) and 80% of the Codex is covered) than if than if someone decided to take the "no girls allowed" sign off the Astartes treehouse, but holding up the existence of the Sisters as an example of GW's inclusiveness always seems ridiculous to me when they haven't gotten a new model or an actual Codex (as opposed to a half-assed White Dwarf patch that took away more things than it provided) in, what, twelve years?)

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 Crazyterran wrote:
Id rather them throw some female heads/arms/etc into whatever the new guard kit will be, and bring sororitas to the forefront a bit more, rather than arbitrarily saying women can be space marines now, fluff be damned.

The people clamboring for female marines seems to be a small subset of the people clamboring for sisters... so...


Not their fault. They have an army that seems to have little love fluff wise, as well as limited models of the army as well. Asking for plastics of the sisters seems to go on deaf ears, having to pay for overpriced metal that has little to change it up. As well, being a weak army list back to back through edition doesn't help either.

SM are the polar opposite to the SoB, getting all the goods and tons of models and plenty of good fluff. If they can't get more SoB, female SM is the next best thing. They have a right to be jealous, Hell, they are scared half the time GW will cut the army.

BTW, it isn't even all of them that want such to happen with SM.

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I don't know if any of you know this, but a woman in body armor looks just like a man in body armor. So, in theory you could run a guards army that is all female and you would be correct, As for SM, they have even more armor, so who is to say that some of them are sporting boobies under those chest plates? There is no need for new models in either of those cases.
All it would take to make female SM is a simple lore change, the question is "how many people would get upset about that"

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KayTwo wrote:
I don't know if any of you know this, but a woman in body armor looks just like a man in body armor. So, in theory you could run a guards army that is all female and you would be correct, As for SM, they have even more armor, so who is to say that some of them are sporting boobies under those chest plates? There is no need for new models in either of those cases.
All it would take to make female SM is a simple lore change, the question is "how many people would get upset about that"


It is the 40k community.... that should give you an idea on what to expect if such occurs, and how many would numbers wise.

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 NenkotaMoon wrote:
 Crazyterran wrote:
Id rather them throw some female heads/arms/etc into whatever the new guard kit will be, and bring sororitas to the forefront a bit more, rather than arbitrarily saying women can be space marines now, fluff be damned.

The people clamboring for female marines seems to be a small subset of the people clamboring for sisters... so...


Not their fault. They have an army that seems to have little love fluff wise, as well as limited models of the army as well. Asking for plastics of the sisters seems to go on deaf ears, having to pay for overpriced metal that has little to change it up. As well, being a weak army list back to back through edition doesn't help either.

SM are the polar opposite to the SoB, getting all the goods and tons of models and plenty of good fluff. If they can't get more SoB, female SM is the next best thing. They have a right to be jealous, Hell, they are scared half the time GW will cut the army.

BTW, it isn't even all of them that want such to happen with SM.


Like I said, a small portion of the smallest group in the community.

My post did say they should bring Sisters to the fore a bit more.

 warboss wrote:
Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
 
   
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 Crazyterran wrote:
 NenkotaMoon wrote:
 Crazyterran wrote:
Id rather them throw some female heads/arms/etc into whatever the new guard kit will be, and bring sororitas to the forefront a bit more, rather than arbitrarily saying women can be space marines now, fluff be damned.

The people clamboring for female marines seems to be a small subset of the people clamboring for sisters... so...


Not their fault. They have an army that seems to have little love fluff wise, as well as limited models of the army as well. Asking for plastics of the sisters seems to go on deaf ears, having to pay for overpriced metal that has little to change it up. As well, being a weak army list back to back through edition doesn't help either.

SM are the polar opposite to the SoB, getting all the goods and tons of models and plenty of good fluff. If they can't get more SoB, female SM is the next best thing. They have a right to be jealous, Hell, they are scared half the time GW will cut the army.

BTW, it isn't even all of them that want such to happen with SM.


Like I said, a small portion of the smallest group in the community.

My post did say they should bring Sisters to the fore a bit more.


More, yes more, and the SoB community is larger than you think. Being an SoB player is like being in an abusive relationship that keeps taking your money away and then takes the children away from you. As well others kick you in the face and say, "Deal with it."

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More, yes more, and the SoB community is larger than you think. Being an SoB player is like being in an abusive relationship that keeps taking your money away and then takes the children away from you. As well others kick you in the face and say, "Deal with it."
...This is entirely about tiny models in a space fantasy game, this isn't even close.
   
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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

More, yes more, and the SoB community is larger than you think. Being an SoB player is like being in an abusive relationship that keeps taking your money away and then takes the children away from you. As well others kick you in the face and say, "Deal with it."
...This is entirely about tiny models in a space fantasy game, this isn't even close.


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You may want to take a break from the hobby.
   
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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
You may want to take a break from the hobby.


Im just saying what is reality.

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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I don't understand. Why is it acceptable to ignore Space Marine fluff to have female Marines, but not okay to ignore Sisters fluff to have male Sororitas?


There's actually a pretty solid reason in the lore why the Ecclesiarchy doesn't have a fighting force of male warriors at its disposal. The Age of Apostasy is one of the most important events in the Imperium's history, second only to the Horus Heresy, and the Decree Passive (barring the Ecclesiarchy from controlling "men under arms") was a direct result. It's grounded in the narrative. Whereas, the reason there aren't female Space Marines amounts to "Just because".

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 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I don't understand. Why is it acceptable to ignore Space Marine fluff to have female Marines, but not okay to ignore Sisters fluff to have male Sororitas?


There's actually a pretty solid reason in the lore why the Ecclesiarchy doesn't have a fighting force of male warriors at its disposal. The Age of Apostasy is one of the most important events in the Imperium's history, second only to the Horus Heresy, and the Decree Passive (barring the Ecclesiarchy from controlling "men under arms") was a direct result. It's grounded in the narrative. Whereas, the reason there aren't female Space Marines amounts to "Just because".

So what I am reading here is that your facts from the lore are better than their facts from the lore? Why is the fact that there was a law passed to prevent males from being part of the sisters of battle any more true than the geneseed of male primarchs cannot be implanted in females?

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KayTwo wrote:
I don't know if any of you know this, but a woman in body armor looks just like a man in body armor. So, in theory you could run a guards army that is all female and you would be correct, As for SM, they have even more armor, so who is to say that some of them are sporting boobies under those chest plates? There is no need for new models in either of those cases.
All it would take to make female SM is a simple lore change, the question is "how many people would get upset about that"


The last time we had this discussion some pictures were posted of female and male US Army soldiers standing in their body armor/full kit. The hair and the occasional soft featured were the only thing distinguishing them. Now shrink that down to tabletop size, which means look at those same soldiers from a distance of 50 meters or so. Indistinguishable. But it doesn't matter, the crux is that there should never be all male anything ever in ANYTHING, but all female armies/teams/whatever are fine if not encouraged. THAT is the agenda you will meet no matter WHAT logic you throw at it. And you will never defeat that belief with facts. Why, you ask? People have never been beaten to death with multiple rocks over a fact. Millions have died that way over the years due to beliefs.

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 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I don't understand. Why is it acceptable to ignore Space Marine fluff to have female Marines, but not okay to ignore Sisters fluff to have male Sororitas?


There's actually a pretty solid reason in the lore why the Ecclesiarchy doesn't have a fighting force of male warriors at its disposal. The Age of Apostasy is one of the most important events in the Imperium's history, second only to the Horus Heresy, and the Decree Passive (barring the Ecclesiarchy from controlling "men under arms") was a direct result. It's grounded in the narrative. Whereas, the reason there aren't female Space Marines amounts to "Just because".
So why is one lore better than the other? Why is one "more valid"?

Hell, I could just reword your argument:
There's actually a pretty solid reason in the lore why the Space Marines don't have a fighting force of female warriors at its disposal. The creation of Space Marines is one of the most important events in the Imperium's history, and the inability of women to be implanted with geneseed was a direct result. It's grounded in the narrative. Whereas, the reason there aren't male Adeptas Sororitas amounts to "Just because".

Why do you pretend like one isn't important, or negligible? They're both canon, and both supported by GW. I fully support the idea of Sisters being monogender. However, it support that idea because of the lore, in the same way I support monogender Space Marines.


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GW have retconned stuff before. (Which annoys me.)

The Decree Passive might be revoked in the face of that massive new warp rift.

NuMarines may not use the daft progenoid system.

Heck, at the rate long lost folk are making comebacks we might see the two missing legions pitch up....Astral Amazons and the Void Valkyries. :Rollseyes:

If GW can write an interesting story as to why we now have female marines all well and good...but I would rather they do something with Sisters of Battle.

I suspect that instead of that we will see them work on Sisters of Silence instead.


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