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 Traditio wrote:
There are ultimately two possibilities:

Either Eldar will either be average or below average...

...or I will happily spend another edition refusing to play against people who play Eldar armies.

this was actually a big reason I DID NOT want to play Eldar as I return to 8th (it was 4th out of 4 candidates on my list, but a distant 4th). I didn't want to be just another Sheepdar player. But I mean...dude was offering $900 of Eldar product for, fully painted (his own scheme) for $500. Who says know to that if they want to play Eldar???

But as others discussed above, I am willing - if not prefer - to not take netlists, spam lists, etc. I try to honor fluff as much as possible and my lists will all be mostly adherent to whatever Craftworld I decide to go with (if i even stay w/ Eldar).

 Traditio wrote:
I will say this, though:

Even if Eldar are completely OP, eldar players should have no difficulty getting games.

Simply proxy as DE.

The rules will be easily available.

Coincidentally, DE is actually my #1 desired faction. But see offer I couldn't refuse above... Perhaps I'll proxy.

I hope that adding scatter lasers to jetbikes costs as much as the bike or that the gun is needed to the ground. Own bikes and refuse to put a single scatter laser on any of them silly op nonsense.

 jeff white wrote:
I hope that adding scatter lasers to jetbikes costs as much as the bike or that the gun is needed to the ground. Own bikes and refuse to put a single scatter laser on any of them silly op nonsense.

But we don't know if Scatter lasers will be that good. We already know they'll likely wound T4 on 3+ (not 2+ as in 7th). We also know that HP stripping isn't a thing Scatters can do anymore, since everything has (plenty of) wounds and armour saves (that Scatters won't affect as they are likely AP 0)
It is also very likely that "Relentless" isn't a thing anymore and that means Bikes will have to choice to either stay still or suffer -1 to hit for the Scatter being Heavy
I am also hoping the Jump-shoot-jump and the 36" turboboost is gone. Make WIndrider have a 14-18" move and/or 2d6 Advance move at max.

All of those things should balance Scatterbike to an "acceptable" level. A points increase after that would just be egregious.
I am hoping that the weapon upgrades for bikes only increase the overall cost by 1/3. So a 20ppm bike could buy a Scatter laser or Shuricannon for 10ppm.
Also, lets hope for 4+ armour on WIndriders. That would further help nerf (but not over-nerf) them. It is also more fluffy

What would really be funny (in a bad way) is if the Scatter laser became crap on bikes, but the Shuricannon becomes the new "best weapon ever".

There is a rumour that Jink is +2 armour at the cost of -1 to hit. I'm not sure how I feel about that. Flying Terminators are the last thing Windriders need to be.

-

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:Perhaps I'll proxy.

I don't think it would be that difficult. Literally every vehicle you own counts as a raider. Literally every infantry you own counts as a kabalite warrior.

Pick an eldar HQ. Counts as a random dark eldar HQ.

Call it a day.

 jeff white wrote:
I hope that adding scatter lasers to jetbikes costs as much as the bike or that the gun is needed to the ground. Own bikes and refuse to put a single scatter laser on any of them silly op nonsense.

Remains to be seen for the matched play points but the power level points it's actually going to be free upgrade most likely.

I'd be happy if underutilized units become more viable. Jes Goodwin has designed so many great models, but it gets harder and harder to justify my dwindling painting free time for models that will rarely, if ever, get used. I had a Jain Zar model I painted in 1996 that I can count on one hand how many times I used that model.

And, I hope to see some new plastics when GW releases an Aeldari book. Warp Spiders are still from the early/mid 1990s.

People already crying cheese and we havn't even seen the points values yet lmao. They seem to be doing a decent job playtesting and listening to the community now and I would bet that the points will be increased across the board or they will die super easily.

 DO IT TO IT wrote:
Mortal wound Mandiblasters that hit before anyone actually swings in the fight sounds like too much. That's the only thing that really bugs me.

Makes no sense if you consider how mandiblasters have been treated in the past.
What we see now is the tip of an iceberg. I guess that there will be a lot more OP rules and units.

Mortal wound Mandiblasters that hit before anyone actually swings in the fight sounds like too much. That's the only thing that really bugs me.

Agreed, its nonsense. Mandis in the past were an annoyance at best, pretty useless at worst. Jacking them to this level is beyond strange. Unless its something like d3 mortal wounds per unit or somesuch.

If it's anything like the various AoS units that do similar things, it'll be something like "roll a d6 for each unit engaged in combat with this unit. On a 4+, that unit suffers a mortal wound. If the Exarch is alive, deal d3 mortal wounds instead."

That would be useful for whittling through strong defenses, but isn't going to mulch hordes or wreck knights.

Agreed.

 wuestenfux wrote:

What we see now is the tip of an iceberg. I guess that there will be a lot more OP rules and units.

Agreed. But in a way, I am excited for this. if everything is OP, nothing actually is.

Lets take a look as 2 of the units we have seen so far: the Dreadnought and Rubric Marines. It isn't a stretch now to think that Bolter armed Rubrics can take out a Dread, which was not possible before.
Now they will wound on 5+ and only allow the Dread to make 5+ saves.
Likewise, the durability of the Dread actually went up a bit against high str weapons. Do to having 8 wounds, a single Lascannon can no longer 1-shot a Dread.

Overall, I think this lower end weapons have been brought up significantly, while the durability of other units has also been brought up. We cannot assume that a change that would be OP in 7th will be OP in 8th. So a unit causing a few Mortal Wounds in melee can't really be compared to rolling D-weapons, for example.

Currently, Mandiblasters cause a single automatic hit per Scorpion that wounds on 4+. In 8th, it is likely only 1 per Scorpion and it may just be a str3 hit, so it will only cause a Mortal Wound on a 5+ or 6.
Considering that's only an average of 1-2 wounds per unit of 5 or so AND that this edition will have TONS of wounds, I'd hardly consider that OP.

-

Personally, I don't mind Eldar units getting Always Strike First. They're supposed to be fast, it makes sense.

What will annoy me is if the same isn't also applied to Dark Eldar. Especially since they're supposed to be more melee-focused than regular Eldar.

 vipoid wrote:
Personally, I don't mind Eldar units getting Always Strike First. They're supposed to be fast, it makes sense.

What will annoy me is if the same isn't also applied to Dark Eldar. Especially since they're supposed to be more melee-focused than regular Eldar.

well, to be fair, the article just stated Banshees have ASF. Perhaps they give it as a faction-wide rule for DE (especially since they have no Psykers?).

It would be nice if the True Kin stopped feeling like the poor relative to CWE in terms of ability. I feel that DE were seen as less elite and more towards the horde end of the spectrum by GW.

(Not an actual horde army.)

My impression of Dark Eldar was that we were supposed to be even more fragile than CWE but commensurately faster in return. That was true to an extent but when I gave up 40k a couple of years ago there were Marine units zipping about being just as fast.

The Ynnari are another factor. GW have listed them as a distinct faction. That could mean they get dedicated models. Which definitely takes up release slots and *may* poach abilities from their Eldar cousins.

Worse, new, fresh mechanics may end up being given to the Ynnari over DE or CWE.

 Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:
well, to be fair, the article just stated Banshees have ASF. Perhaps they give it as a faction-wide rule for DE (especially since they have no Psykers?).

It's possible that DE will get ASF as a faction-wide rule, but the history of 40k is not on our side.

Typically, Eldar get all the power and cool special rules, whilst DE get to eat gak.

 vipoid wrote:

 Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:
well, to be fair, the article just stated Banshees have ASF. Perhaps they give it as a faction-wide rule for DE (especially since they have no Psykers?).

It's possible that DE will get ASF as a faction-wide rule, but the history of 40k is not on our side.

Typically, Eldar get all the power and cool special rules, whilst DE get to eat gak.

WHFB backs this to some degree. ASF was the High Elf trick for several editions while the Dark Elves didn't get it and left their great weapons behind as a result.

Banshees are a good candidate for ASF - but Eldar are no faster than many other species such as Genestealers.

Dark Eldar are a better candidate as they actually live lives on the edge filled with violence, but they keep boosting Eldar - see Guardians being as skilled in combat as Elite versions of the Wyches FFS

 Mr Morden wrote:
Banshees are a good candidate for ASF - but Eldar are no faster than many other species such as Genestealers.

Dark Eldar are a better candidate as they actually live lives on the edge filled with violence, but they keep boosting Eldar - see Guardians being as skilled in combat as Elite versions of the Wyches FFS

See, this is why you don't delete the Initiative stat to replace it with special rules. I know people find numbers scary but if you reduce Initiative to a binary ASF stat you have to start asking "Wait, why is (unit X) fast enough to have a 1 instead of a 0 but (unit Y) isn't?".

 Mr Morden wrote:
Banshees are a good candidate for ASF - but Eldar are no faster than many other species such as Genestealers.

But they are faster than gaunts, guardsman, SMs, Skitarii etc.

Where do you draw the line exactly?

 Mr Morden wrote:
Dark Eldar are a better candidate as they actually live lives on the edge filled with violence, but they keep boosting Eldar - see Guardians being as skilled in combat as Elite versions of the Wyches FFS

Yeah, I'm certainly not optimistic about DE getting good things in 8th.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
WHFB backs this to some degree. ASF was the High Elf trick for several editions while the Dark Elves didn't get it and left their great weapons behind as a result.

It might be worth noting that both Dark Elves and (IIRC) Wood Elves did get ASF in 8th edition. And then all 3 elf races lost it in Age of Sigmar.

With that in mind, I'd be very surprised if Age of 40k gave any race ASF as an army-wide rule. Hell, I'd be surprised if a single DE unit got ASF.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
See, this is why you don't delete the Initiative stat to replace it with special rules. I know people find numbers scary but if you reduce Initiative to a binary ASF stat you have to start asking "Wait, why is (unit X) fast enough to have a 1 instead of a 0 but (unit Y) isn't?".

Agreed. The removal of initiative is one of the things I find most off-putting about 9th so far.

The thing is, even if you think speed is a good replacement, the inclusion of Bikes, Jump Packs and the like make it pointless. What's the use in an Archon having his speed represented by an extra inch or so of movement over a Space Marine, when a SM Captain with a Thunderhammer can just take a bike and be faster than both?

It seems like any melee unit that relied on high initiative will either need a slew of special rules to compensate or else will just end up being garbage.

I am torn as I have been wanting to start Eldar, but I don't want to be lumped into all the cheesedar players (especially since I didn't want to spam bikes, although I do really love how the Wraith units look).

I'm looking forward to 8th letting me field a proper balanced craftworld army, with some Dire Avengers, some Scorpions/Dragons/Banshees, some guardians, some wraiths, etc.

Wayniac wrote:
I am torn as I have been wanting to start Eldar, but I don't want to be lumped into all the cheesedar players (especially since I didn't want to spam bikes, although I do really love how the Wraith units look).

I'm looking forward to 8th letting me field a proper balanced craftworld army, with some Dire Avengers, some Scorpions/Dragons/Banshees, some guardians, some wraiths, etc.

Believe it or not Traditio and Martel are a noisy vocal minority on the Internet. Most real people aren't going to condemn you the instant you tell them which Codex you're using.

It's when the twenty Scatterbikes/two Wraithknights come out of the bag that the cheesedar-lumping begins.

banshees with ASF is a given, but not other CWE. Harlequins are in a strange position as they should be hitting first too, but don't know if they'll get it. DE could get the rule as a easy sub for Combat Drugs, but not sure. I seriously doubt that it will be an army-wide rule, that would be wrong.

 bullyboy wrote:
banshees with ASF is a given, but not other CWE. Harlequins are in a strange position as they should be hitting first too, but don't know if they'll get it. DE could get the rule as a easy sub for Combat Drugs, but not sure. I seriously doubt that it will be an army-wide rule, that would be wrong.

I would expect Harlequins to have a hit penalty and DE would have ASF on some units. I doubt anyone will have army wide ASF. It was pretty hated in Fantasy with Elves from what I remember.

 bullyboy wrote:
banshees with ASF is a given, but not other CWE. Harlequins are in a strange position as they should be hitting first too, but don't know if they'll get it. DE could get the rule as a easy sub for Combat Drugs, but not sure. I seriously doubt that it will be an army-wide rule, that would be wrong.

...Kind of funny considering that Banshees are I5 and Harlequins are I6 right now...

pm713 wrote:
I doubt anyone will have army wide ASF. It was pretty hated in Fantasy with Elves from what I remember.

I think the issue in Fantasy was that Fantasy already had an Initiative stat.

They could have just given Elves high initiative values, but instead chose to give them their own special rule.

Amongst other things, this created a weird disconnect as to what Initiative was supposed to represent, as you'd have elves supposedly being so fast that they struck first against everything, and yet only having I5.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
banshees with ASF is a given, but not other CWE. Harlequins are in a strange position as they should be hitting first too, but don't know if they'll get it. DE could get the rule as a easy sub for Combat Drugs, but not sure. I seriously doubt that it will be an army-wide rule, that would be wrong.

...Kind of funny considering that Banshees are I5 and Harlequins are I6 right now...

Probably more to do with their masks. The ones that make Harlequins I1.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I doubt anyone will have army wide ASF. It was pretty hated in Fantasy with Elves from what I remember.

I think the issue in Fantasy was that Fantasy already had an Initiative stat.

They could have just given Elves high initiative values, but instead chose to give them their own special rule.

Amongst other things, this created a weird disconnect as to what Initiative was supposed to represent, as you'd have elves supposedly being so fast that they struck first against everything, and yet only having I5.

Or the fact that the rule was broken. I think that was the worse part. I still doubt something viewed that badly would be brought back.

Or the fact that the rule was broken. I think that was the worse part. I still doubt something viewed that badly would be brought back.

It was broken because it worked with any weapon.. Swordmasters were a pain as a result.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
I am torn as I have been wanting to start Eldar, but I don't want to be lumped into all the cheesedar players (especially since I didn't want to spam bikes, although I do really love how the Wraith units look).

I'm looking forward to 8th letting me field a proper balanced craftworld army, with some Dire Avengers, some Scorpions/Dragons/Banshees, some guardians, some wraiths, etc.

Believe it or not Traditio and Martel are a noisy vocal minority on the Internet. Most real people aren't going to condemn you the instant you tell them which Codex you're using.

It's when the twenty Scatterbikes/two Wraithknights come out of the bag that the cheesedar-lumping begins.

I don't condemn the player, I condemn GW.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Or the fact that the rule was broken. I think that was the worse part. I still doubt something viewed that badly would be brought back.

It was broken because it worked with any weapon.. Swordmasters were a pain as a result.

Well the fact it gave Elves rerolls to hit against so many armies was the problem. Followed by largely negating the downside of great weapons.At least that was my experience.