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Trukks and Waaaagh

With the new Stratagems system, you shouldn't be losing any squads to morale for at least a few turns if you build your list properly.

Another case of...just wait for the damn real rules.

If everyone on the internet has picked up on the dangers of the new moral system...do you not imagine that GW probably ran into that exact same thing in testing? It will be addressed somehow or other. Relax.

You don't jump off the boat because icebergs exist. You wait till you hit one.

Or you steer clear of the icebergs.

Or you fit the hull of the boat with several sections which can be individually shut off in the event of an iceberg hitting, oh wait...

 Crimson Devil wrote:
I would imagine stuff like Boss Poles would add leadership.

In AoS I play Bonesplitterz and battle shock isn't that big of a deal. My units have either a 5 or 6 Bravery and the banners add +2 if I'm within 3" on the enemy. And my Warboss can make one unit ignore BS. My Boyz are either fine or dead.

Sounds like a good way to handle it. Plus might still be something like mob rule using command points or not for orks.

Come on people, mob rule is going to affect the battle shock mechanic.

You loot the iceberg and stick a bunch of guns and rokkits on it, then go around ramming the stunties in their weedy little metal ships.

I'm just as worried about my nid gribblies as most ork players are about their boyz. Mob rule/Synapse better help mitigate losses or us horde players are just going to be playing the "remove models holesale as the two tactical squads gloriously annihilate half our models then we lose the rest to TotallyNotBattleshock" game.

Given the overall history of the tyranid rules, I wouldn't expect morale to be a huge issue for a well designed list. Probably not for Orks either if they get a decent version of the mob rule back in some form. Both those armies have traditionally been morale resilient in one way or another. I don't see that changing.

We can also be sure that orks will get a bonus to morale for multiples of 10 in regards to models in the unit. Then you can also bet money they will get other bonuses in addition to the generic one I listed above for 20+ models in the squad. They will get their 6+ save against every weapon in the game that currently sports an ap 5-6.

Then you have command points, characters granting bonuses, the probability of ork boys having not only a regular special rule to mitigate losses (such as only ever losing the die result and not the difference) but you can imagine them gaining a bonus for declaring a WAAAAAGH!

Da boyz will be guud.

 Luciferian wrote:
Would you rather lose the whole thing to an unlucky sweeping advance?

That's not the only possible alternative to battle shock...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:
If everyone on the internet has picked up on the dangers of the new moral system...do you not imagine that GW probably ran into that exact same thing in testing? .

This is the company that in 6th edition thought that psykers needed a buff because none of the studio guys were using Librarians. And in two editions in a row have written psychic rules that stop functioning when a psyker joins a unit.

So no, I think there's every chance that GW may have missed some incredibly obvious flaw in the new rules due to them not playing the same game as the rest of us.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
You loot the iceberg and stick a bunch of guns and rokkits on it, then go around ramming the stunties in their weedy little metal ships.

That is the most Orky thing in this thread!

Orks gaining +1 leadership for every 10 models in a unit is pretty pants when you actually think about it. Take the example of 20 used earlier on;

 mrhappyface wrote:
Yep!
- 20 man Ork squad
- Bad shooting phase for Orks, 10 boyz die
- Moral comes and you roll a 6
- 6 + 10 dead - Ld7 = another 9 dead
- 1 lone boy left after moral

Hordes are gonna be fun this edition!

Increased leadership in multiples of 10 means there's 2 boyz left instead of 1. That's not exactly brilliant.
There will be ways to mitigate Battleshock properly I have no doubt, but hordes getting +1ld for every 10 in the unit is not it - unless there are ways to combine this with other things, even then it would be the most minor of those things..

Oh, come now, everyone, do you really expect half of your Ork mob to have a moment of self discovery, wherein they realize their moral compasses have been askew, then wander off to contemplate their poor life choices? I'm not sure if even extremist Blood Axes would engage in "philosuffee" or "ethikks."

Oh? What? Oh, you meant morale. That's different. I think Mob Rule, Bosspoles, and Ld bubbles from Warbosses and the like will all be tools available to mitigate the damage. If you position/equip your units very poorly, then don't be too shocked when your large mob goes down to half strength and the rest flee in the space of a turn.

 KommissarKiln wrote:
Oh, come now, everyone, do you really expect half of your Ork mob to have a moment of self discovery, wherein they realize their moral compasses have been askew, then wander off to contemplate their poor life choices? I'm not sure if even extremist Blood Axes would engage in "philosuffee" or "ethikks."

Oh? What? Oh, you meant morale. That's different. I think Mob Rule, Bosspoles, and Ld bubbles from Warbosses and the like will all be tools available to mitigate the damage. If you position/equip your units very poorly, then don't be too shocked when your large mob goes down to half strength and the rest flee in the space of a turn.

This is funny and right at the same time. And also, there is such a thing called Inspiring presence in AoS where you choose a unit and it becomes immune to battleshock. Also, from what we have seen, there is not much things that can kill a horde easily. The easiest being a flamer which does d6 hits. If you have 10 orks that flee from battleshock its probably because your opponent ignored the rest of your army. And if losing 10 orks is scary it means you do not have enough ork boyz to begin with, even with the last few editions.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
I would imagine stuff like Boss Poles would add leadership.

In AoS I play Bonesplitterz and battle shock isn't that big of a deal. My units have either a 5 or 6 Bravery and the banners add +2 if I'm within 3" on the enemy. And my Warboss can make one unit ignore BS. My Boyz are either fine or dead.

Now imagine every mook in aos toting bolters and scatlazers.

Morale is a serious threat to orks - like it probably should be. But let's not jump to conclusions before we see what mob rule does. Cause currently sweeping advances are also quite serious...until you notice that half the armies have atsknf and another one is fearless.

 Rippy wrote:
With the new Stratagems system, you shouldn't be losing any squads to morale for at least a few turns if you build your list properly.

Which isn't that helpful. So while you are using your once per phase(which means btw you can only save ONE squad) and limited numbers to keep battleshock from wiping your squad MSU armies will just laugh at the battleshock being pseudo-fearless and use command points for other stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:
Another case of...just wait for the damn real rules.

If everyone on the internet has picked up on the dangers of the new moral system...do you not imagine that GW probably ran into that exact same thing in testing? It will be addressed somehow or other. Relax.

You don't jump off the boat because icebergs exist. You wait till you hit one.

You are talking about company that went "whoops we didn't think somebody would do that" when players found out loophole in their rules in about...oh 5 seconds.

 Mr. Grey wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:
Well you might want to save up on Command Points then

It is rather telling that orks will need command points to even function. Another edition of crappy orks...

You're making snap judgements based on two small snippets of the 8th edition rules, with no information whatsoever yet about what kinds of special rules orks themselves will get. For all we know, orks will have a rule that says "Increase ork leadership by +2 for every 12 orks in the mob - there's strength in numbers!".

I can honestly see something like this, might make armour worth it.

I will be shocked if the horde units in the new system (Boyz Gants Guardsmen) don't have escalating morale assistance the larger they get.

There is likely to be lots of modifiers and unit specific rules that will aid in limiting the morale casualties. Thats the way AoS does it and I would be surprised if 40k isnt the same.

In its raw form this sounds really devestating for big units of weak troops but everything said and done I think the effect of morale will be nowhere as damaging as it seems right now.

I will be very surprised if orks do not maintain some function of boss pole and mob rule as for at least the last 2 codexes it has been there (did not play before 4th so unsure before that one)

that said if they do not have a mechanic like that then orks will maintain their status as awful and the worst army in the game... which would make me sad

 Eldarain wrote:
I will be shocked if the horde units in the new system (Boyz Gants Guardsmen) don't have escalating morale assistance the larger they get.

Not only that, but Nobs/Bosses, Synapse creatures and Commisars will almost certainly have aura affects that boost morale.

The more I think about it, the more this new system makes sense.
A bunch of Orks die in a group. The survivors either start fighting amongst themselves (and potentially kill a few more Orks) or some flee.
A Big Boss come by yells at them and/or hits a few over the head and the rest stop fighting and rally around him

-

 koooaei wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
I would imagine stuff like Boss Poles would add leadership.

In AoS I play Bonesplitterz and battle shock isn't that big of a deal. My units have either a 5 or 6 Bravery and the banners add +2 if I'm within 3" on the enemy. And my Warboss can make one unit ignore BS. My Boyz are either fine or dead.

Now imagine every mook in aos toting bolters and scatlazers.

Morale is a serious threat to orks - like it probably should be. But let's not jump to conclusions before we see what mob rule does. Cause currently sweeping advances are also quite serious...until you notice that half the armies have atsknf and another one is fearless.

There is a lot of shooting in AoS. Some can match 40k levels.

I'm going to stop trying to talk people down. Y'all can get back to your anxiety.

Don't forget, Orks will now only be wounded on a 3+ by any weapon with a strength of 5-7. So now we are significantly more resistant to traditional anti horde weapons. Combine that with nothing that currently has weaker than ap4 not negating the T-shirt save, and 'ard Boyz getting a 5+ against those in the open and you've got a much harder unit to put down.

Now, if the current trend continues and Orks hit on a 3+ like most other ws4 models do they will see a significant improvement on their damage dealing as well. If they get the charge, units like marines, necrons, and all of the aeldari will not only be hit more effectively but the Orks won't be beaten to death before getting to swing.

Powerswords are probably ap-3 (see force sword) and power mauls/staves are str+2 ap-1 it will be interesting to see what they put the big Choppa at with those statlines. I wouldn't be surprised to see it roll out with no AP value but do 2 or d3 wounds per hit.

The daemonettes have inbuilt damage increase bonuses for larger blobs,, so expect those to roll down the pipe as well. Hell, just getting to pick your post models will be a huge boost to ork viability in the game. Take grunts from the back and.keep on trucking! (Little wordplay for ya!)

 Galef wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
I will be shocked if the horde units in the new system (Boyz Gants Guardsmen) don't have escalating morale assistance the larger they get.

Not only that, but Nobs/Bosses, Synapse creatures and Commisars will almost certainly have aura affects that boost morale.

The more I think about it, the more this new system makes sense.
A bunch of Orks die in a group. The survivors either start fighting amongst themselves (and potentially kill a few more Orks) or some flee.
A Big Boss come by yells at them and/or hits a few over the head and the rest stop fighting and rally around him

-

It seems like characters will have a circle of influence that is a number of inches. Like, within 12" you pass morale checks.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
The daemonettes have inbuilt damage increase bonuses for larger blobs

Which they will never be able to benefit from unless they have some special morale rules. Even with the current immunity to morale in 7th edition, I've never gotten a 20-strong unit of daemonettes into melee without at least 8-12 casualities. If they suffer additional casualties due to shooting attacks and morale, I doubt daemonettes will even be worth fielding. The new morale system seems massively skewed in favor of smaller units. The old % system at least didn't completely penalise horde style units - though perhaps there'll be some rule that just blanket makes large units immune or resistant to morale.