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Was thinking it would be kewl for the next loyal Primarch to be on the Dark Side of the galaxy.

But at this stage there is just Sagnius over there as far as I'm aware.. and he is one of the harder ones to bring back

I will jump from a high location if Ferrus Mannus comes back to life.

Bullying Iron Hands fans regarding how gak and useless their primarch was is one of the few small pleasures I can take in this cold world.

GodDamUser wrote:
Was thinking it would be kewl for the next loyal Primarch to be on the Dark Side of the galaxy.

But at this stage there is just Sagnius over there as far as I'm aware.. and he is one of the harder ones to bring back

Souls are immortal in the 40k universe, so as long as the Emperor doesn't disintegrate your soul with a psychic attack, you can be resurrected somehow. Even if the Emperor dies he'll probably just come back again in a rad new body.

If Sanguinus comes back from the death... to turn Traitor... THAT will be something I want to see.

Primarch souls might be immortal, but normal humans souls just fade into oblivion as they return to the warp, Orks, Tau, and presumably, necrons all do/did the same. How the primarch souls got so resilient probably has to do with the deal the emperor made with the ruinous powers during their creation. It could be that he was planning on resurrecting them if they fell in battle, an insurance policy on his greatest work, kind of like chaos powers resurrecting daemon princes.

In any case the power horus had and used, damaged the emperors soul, nearly destroyed his body, and made it so that not even the greatest psykers or science could mend him. That was the emperor, who was far more powerful than the primarchs, so I'm just not sure there is enough left of Saguinius to put back together. What Horus did to him broke the blood angels, lots of primarchs have died, no one other than saguinius got killed hard enough to give his space marines a mental disorder.

 Grimgold wrote:
Primarch souls might be immortal, but normal humans souls just fade into oblivion as they return to the warp, Orks, Tau, and presumably, necrons all do/did the same. How the primarch souls got so resilient probably has to do with the deal the emperor made with the ruinous powers during their creation. It could be that he was planning on resurrecting them if they fell in battle, an insurance policy on his greatest work, kind of like chaos powers resurrecting daemon princes.

In any case the power horus had and used, damaged the emperors soul, nearly destroyed his body, and made it so that not even the greatest psykers or science could mend him. That was the emperor, who was far more powerful than the primarchs, so I'm just not sure there is enough left of Saguinius to put back together. What Horus did to him broke the blood angels, lots of primarchs have died, no one other than saguinius got killed hard enough to give his space marines a mental disorder.

And considering what Fulgrim did to Ferrus Manus Head (urgh...) thats saying something, yeah.

 Grimgold wrote:


In any case the power horus had and used, damaged the emperors soul, nearly destroyed his body, and made it so that not even the greatest psykers or science could mend him.

His body, yes, but not his soul. His soul is barely tethered to the material plane by the last few living cells in his body, and has been kind of drifting around the immaterium for 10,000 years. Presumably, given that the Chaos gods feed on the worship of mortals, so has the soul of the Emperor in the warp, and he may now literally be a god in spite of his physical state. At different points GW has floated the prospect of the Emperor's soul being resurrected in a new body, but it's not something they've gone so far as to do.

No his spirit was messed up as well:

"Poor, brave Malcador the Hero. He reserved a fragment of his strength for me. It gives me little time to pass final orders to you. If you do as I ask then I shall not wholly die, my spirit at least will survive. My injuries are severe, more so than I had hoped but less than I feared. My psychic powers will return to me in time but my body will never heal. I shall never walk amongst you again. I am now bound to this machine for all time. My faithful bodyguard and attendants know what is required. You must do as they request! Dorn and Jaghatai, you have much work to do. Though the head of the serpent has been destroyed its coils still choke the safety of Mankind. You and your loyal brothers must fight on. Cleanse the taint of treachery from our stars. Never again must we allow the Ruinous Powers of Chaos to have such a chance. Now all of you go! You know your duties. Execute them well. The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant!"

He says his psychic powers will return in time but his body is hashed, meaning both were damaged in the fight with Horus. If he had not been interred in the golden throne both his spirit and his body might have died, thus the line about not wholly dying. I mean they can retcon the whole thing, but as the lore sits, he got the same treatment as horus for all intents and purposes.

 Popsghostly wrote:

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Almost certainly empty melodrama. The Blood Angels probably arent going anywhere.

But with them teetering on the edge you've got a great entrance for their primarch to show back up and save the day. Give you guilli on one side and sang on the other trying to hold together a fractured galaxy. Seems like a promising story to me, unless Someone else is being primed to show up and try to deal with the dark side of the galaxy.

Yeah this is leading up to Sanguinus coming back and maybe the Blood Angels will become something like the Vampire Angels or something like that and have the Vampire Transport armed with the Vampire Cannon and the special squads called the Vampire Warrior Killers with their Vampire Shields and Vampire Destroyer Fists.

Dang it, you realize if they go the vampire route, then they really could join up with the necrons and form a "Space Death" faction.

They probably plan to have them killed to a man and re-found the chapter with entirely Primaris Marines.

If a marine faction could get mostly wiped out, I think it should be Space Wolves not Blood Angels. Wolf armies could still exist as pissed off warbands, but just not function as a full army anymore. Out of all the marine chapters...they could poll it off.

I don't think new GW will kill a chapter outright, at least not a founding chapter. They might murder one of the second string chapters like the red scorpions or minotaurs, to replace them with nu-marines to make them iconic. Actually, it would be real interesting if they did someone like the Crimson Sabers as a resurrected nu-marine chapter. It gives them a fun tie to existing fluff and some name recognition.

 Grimgold wrote:
I don't think new GW will kill a chapter outright, at least not a founding chapter. They might murder one of the second string chapters like the red scorpions or minotaurs, to replace them with nu-marines to make them iconic. Actually, it would be real interesting if they did someone like the Crimson Sabers as a resurrected nu-marine chapter. It gives them a fun tie to existing fluff and some name recognition.

At worst, they will no longer be a snowflake Chapter, but be a great one among many like the Iron Hands, Raven Guard, and White Scars.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
I don't think new GW will kill a chapter outright, at least not a founding chapter. They might murder one of the second string chapters like the red scorpions or minotaurs, to replace them with nu-marines to make them iconic. Actually, it would be real interesting if they did someone like the Crimson Sabers as a resurrected nu-marine chapter. It gives them a fun tie to existing fluff and some name recognition.

At worst, they will no longer be a snowflake Chapter, but be a great one among many like the Iron Hands, Raven Guard, and White Scars.

except they have clearly with the numarines wanted to avoid telling any players their army is obselete. that said using a background chapter strikes me as possiable. I doubt they'd go with the minotaurs or red scorpions (those are forge worlds babies after all) BUT, haven't the scythes of the emperor been getting a fair bit of attention lately? aren't they all but dead?

 Galas wrote:
If Sanguinus comes back from the death... to turn Traitor... THAT will be something I want to see.

I mean they would just need some bronze accents and you could go all khorney with them. And it would explain the whole no longer dead thing if he's now a demon.

Poly Ranger wrote:
No unit in the SM dex represents Death Company, no unit comes close to representing Sanguinary Guard and there are no fast, scouting tanks available to any other chapter. These things combined with Furious Charge made the BA playstyle utterly different to all other chapters.

Death Company: Vanguard Vets with the <Blood Angels> keyword may be upgraded to have FNP and Rage
Sanguinary Guard: Honor Guard with the <Blood Angels> keyword may be upgraded to have jump packs
Fast tanks: Overcharged Engines as an upgrade option to detachments consisting entirely of models with the <Blood Angels> keyword

Wasn't that hard.

 Luciferian wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:
Was thinking it would be kewl for the next loyal Primarch to be on the Dark Side of the galaxy.

But at this stage there is just Sagnius over there as far as I'm aware.. and he is one of the harder ones to bring back

Souls are immortal in the 40k universe, so as long as the Emperor doesn't disintegrate your soul with a psychic attack, you can be resurrected somehow. Even if the Emperor dies he'll probably just come back again in a rad new body.

The amount of time they last depends on their psychic level. For example a normal human fades in seconds thus they aren't conscious while an eldar lasts at least long enough to be consumed by demons.

 Grimgold wrote:


He says his psychic powers will return in time but his body is hashed, meaning both were damaged in the fight with Horus. If he had not been interred in the golden throne both his spirit and his body might have died, thus the line about not wholly dying. I mean they can retcon the whole thing, but as the lore sits, he got the same treatment as horus for all intents and purposes.

At the same time the whole reason he used his super-duper psychic attack on Horus was to completely disintegrate his soul so that he could never be resurrected. My point was that souls can and do live on after body death in 40k, and that there is precedence for resurrection. They don't have to retcon much to bring anyone back if they wanted to, except for Horus.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
No unit in the SM dex represents Death Company, no unit comes close to representing Sanguinary Guard and there are no fast, scouting tanks available to any other chapter. These things combined with Furious Charge made the BA playstyle utterly different to all other chapters.

Death Company: Vanguard Vets with the <Blood Angels> keyword may be upgraded to have FNP and Rage, and relentless, may take powerfists a handflamers on any model, any model may take a bolter, no model may take a flamer, plasma gun or Melta gun.
Sanguinary Guard: Honor Guard with the <Blood Angels> keyword may be upgraded to have jump packs if taking jump packs all must take a master crafted, twohanded power weapon, they replace their boltguns with an assault2 18" st4 ap4 weapon instead, any model may take a powerfist instead, no model may take a flamer, plasma fun or Melta gun. The Apothecary and Champion do not exist
Fast tanks: Overcharged Engines as an upgrade option to detachmnd/orents consisting entirely of models with the <Blood Angels> keyword any predator may take a twinlinked assault cannon, flamestorm cannon, and/or heavy flamer side sponsoons. All predators have the option to upgrade to scout

Wasn't that hard.

There we go, corrected it for you. Phew... These entries in the SM Dex are going to be HUGE!

Oh want to try the DC dread, Furioso Dread and Librarian Dread whilst you're at it? Maybe have a go at the DC chaplain too.
Also probably a good idea to make sure all the following entries have keyword blood angels not allowed: Land Speeder Storms, Thunderfire Cannons, Devestator Centurions, Assault Centurions, Stormtalons etc.

And that's just BA - not even counting SWs and DA. Jeez this SM Dex is going to be well confusing!

BrianDavion wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
I don't think new GW will kill a chapter outright, at least not a founding chapter. They might murder one of the second string chapters like the red scorpions or minotaurs, to replace them with nu-marines to make them iconic. Actually, it would be real interesting if they did someone like the Crimson Sabers as a resurrected nu-marine chapter. It gives them a fun tie to existing fluff and some name recognition.

At worst, they will no longer be a snowflake Chapter, but be a great one among many like the Iron Hands, Raven Guard, and White Scars.

except they have clearly with the numarines wanted to avoid telling any players their army is obselete. that said using a background chapter strikes me as possiable. I doubt they'd go with the minotaurs or red scorpions (those are forge worlds babies after all) BUT, haven't the scythes of the emperor been getting a fair bit of attention lately? aren't they all but dead?

And the Blood Angels will be replaced with the Numarine program as they go on. Those Marine Chapters who are "all but dead" have had a much lower recruitment rate than the Legions had during the previous 10K years. Your point?

Poly Ranger wrote:

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

Death Company: Vanguard Vets with the <Blood Angels> keyword may be upgraded to have FNP and Rage, and relentless, may take powerfists a handflamers on any model, any model may take a bolter, no model may take a flamer, plasma gun or Melta gun.
Sanguinary Guard: Honor Guard with the <Blood Angels> keyword may be upgraded to have jump packs if taking jump packs all must take a master crafted, twohanded power weapon, they replace their boltguns with an assault2 18" st4 ap4 weapon instead, any model may take a powerfist instead, no model may take a flamer, plasma fun or Melta gun. The Apothecary and Champion do not exist
Fast tanks: Overcharged Engines as an upgrade option to detachmnd/orents consisting entirely of models with the <Blood Angels> keyword any predator may take a twinlinked assault cannon, flamestorm cannon, and/or heavy flamer side sponsoons. All predators have the option to upgrade to scout

Wasn't that hard.

There we go, corrected it for you. Phew... These entries in the SM Dex are going to be HUGE!

You should have looked up the entries for the units I cited before making your comments. Vanguard Vets can take close combat weapon upgrades on any model, and none of them have the options to take flamers/meltas/plasma. Plus, Relentless really doesn't seem that important to put on an assault unit.

Honor Guard are a completely separate unit from the Command Squad. They have 2+ saves and all carry power weapons as standard equipment. They don't get an Apothecary, no one can be equipped with flamer/plasma/melta, and I don't think the profile of the Angelus boltgun is so sacred it can't just count as a normal bolter for simplicity's sake. Plus, it wouldn't exactly be terrible if a member of the Sanguinary Guard could be fielded as a Chapter Champion.

As for the Baal Predator, it could probably just have its own unit entry. Each of the big 3 chapters that have had their own dexes since 2nd ed will have some legacy units that would need their own entries. The current Codex: Space Marines accommodates the Black Templars by having Crusader Squads in the dex, after all. There's no reason not to include them for the other chapters, too - though probably not as many as their partisan fanboys would have one believe. For instance...

Poly Ranger wrote:
Oh want to try the DC dread, Furioso Dread and Librarian Dread whilst you're at it? Maybe have a go at the DC chaplain too.
Also probably a good idea to make sure all the following entries have keyword blood angels not allowed: Land Speeder Storms, Thunderfire Cannons, Devestator Centurions, Assault Centurions, Stormtalons etc.

The DC and Furioso Dreads could be made variant upgrades of the Ironclad Dread. The Librarian Dread too. For that matter, there's no reason the Librarian Dread should be a BA-only thing. As for the traditionally non-BA units, who cares if the BAs suddenly get access to them by way of being included in Codex: Space Marines? Maybe then Martel will stop complaining about how his BA are always getting the shaft.

Poly Ranger wrote:
And that's just BA - not even counting SWs and DA. Jeez this SM Dex is going to be well confusing!

Not really.

Deathwing Terminators: an upgrade option for Terminator Squads with the <Dark Angels> keyword
Deathwing Knights: an upgrade option for Terminator Squads with the <Dark Angels> keyword
Ravenwing Bike Squadrons: an upgrade option for Bike Squadrons with the <Dark Angels> keyword
Ravenwing Black Knights: an upgrade option for Bike Squadrons with the <Dark Angels> keyword

The Dark Angels flyers and big speeders would be the legacy units out of their dex.

As for the Space Wolves, they were sufficiently different to rate their own book even back in 3rd ed. With all the new units they've gotten since then, cramming that into Codex: Space Marines wouldn't be very feasible.

Maybe the lamenters? They were all but wiped in the fluff by Huron black heart and crew, have some serious issues with their gene seed. They are also the result of the Ad Mech tampering with the gene seed, so the ad mech kind of owe them one.

 Luciferian wrote:


Do you guys really believe they'll release a single new unit in the old scale for the old marines, ever again? Just saying. Yeah, they'll sell what they have for now, and yeah they'll give us some rules for them, but I just can't see them moving forward with two different scales of marine in production.

Re-releases of existing units, yes. Actual new units, perhaps not...but more so because they've pretty much dredged the bottom of the barrel for unit types, (in terms of battlefield roles, quality of combatant and armament at least) With the arrival of the Primaris units, there's less, if any, innovative concepts for new units left to find. With the exception if a few vehicle variants (i.e.armaments) there's a strong possibility that we won't see anything else "new" new for the next 4 or 5 years, pehaps longer.

...Unless they come up with something fairly bizarre, which is of course entirely possible!

It's also possible you're right of couse -maybe they will be brought up to size as kits are updated. But even in that eventuality, there's nothing forcing older modellers to replace their units. I'd sooner have the option of buying them than not. Sure I'll feel a bit of a pang for my now short-looking space wolves, but I won't begrudge GW for improving the look of something. Just think -if they had never refined the scale of their models, we'd still be stuck with proportions like the model below

Also bear in mind that if all marines were re-released in "tall format", the current range of vehicles would look too small alongside them, and woud require upsizing (they already are quite small compared to infantry, but not problematically so). I can't see GW doing that anytime soon.

 thegreatchimp wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:


Do you guys really believe they'll release a single new unit in the old scale for the old marines, ever again? Just saying. Yeah, they'll sell what they have for now, and yeah they'll give us some rules for them, but I just can't see them moving forward with two different scales of marine in production.

Re-releases of existing units, yes. Actual new units, perhaps not...but more so because they've pretty much dredged the bottom of the barrel for unit types, (in terms of battlefield roles, quality of combatant and armament at least) With the arrival of the Primaris units, there's less, if any, innovative concepts for new units left to find. With the exception if a few vehicle variants (i.e.armaments) there's a strong possibility that we won't see anything else "new" new for the next 4 or 5 years, pehaps longer.

...Unless they come up with something fairly bizarre, which is of course entirely possible!

It's also possible you're right of couse -maybe they will be brought up to size as kits are updated. But even in that eventuality, there's nothing forcing older modellers to replace their units. I'd sooner have the option of buying them than not. Sure I'll feel a bit of a pang for my now short-looking space wolves, but I won't begrudge GW for improving the look of something. Just think -if they had never refined the scale of their models, we'd still be stuck with proportion like this:

I found just gluing then on top of the 40mm put them at the right height and gave some interesting modeling possibility for the base.

I won't begrudge GW a bit of improvement either, in fact I really like the direction they are going with Primaris marines in terms of rules and aesthetics. The fluff I can forgive as long as it's what I think it is; a throwaway excuse for having two tiers of marines while they encourage players to switch to the new model line. I don't really care about mixing models either as there have been so many different SM of varying sizes already.

I feel like GW is trying to setup a codex like CSM, where you have one army with a variety of optional play styles. For example, Khorne, Nurgle and Tzneetch all appear under the same army and same codex. Why can't marines do the same thing? But first, GW had to rebrand them with a generic name. Furthermore, GW had to tie them in fluffwise why each individual chapter would unite under a uniform name.

This is my take: The Primaris marines made some factions angry at first. That is until the Primaris marines save every chapter's ass, starting with the Blood Angels, when the decided to consolidate into a single conglomerate.

Of course the Blood Angels are going to die. In the grim darkness of the 8th edition, there will only be ULTRAMARINES!