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melbards wrote:
We will have to wait and see of course because we have only seen a few still images of the the bigger motion picture that is 8th, so to speak.

I believe that we only need to look at AoS gameplay to see how 8th edition will look like.
Expect units teleporting around and deleting each other with powerful attacks and mortal wounds and having layered buffs. Also using crazy unit formations to exploit ranges of abilities and protect characters.
I may be wrong (really hope that I am) but it all points in that direction. Not saying that it is wrong to like that kind of game, but I don't like it so it makes me sad to see 40k end up there too.

Whatever happens, this looks good for horde armies, which have been sorely missed in the last few editions.
I wanna see 150+ models on the board again. My Scatter lasers are ready (and might actually seem balanced in this edition since they'll have no AP modifier, things getting a lot more wounds AND many thinks going for 2+ to wound to 3+ to wound)

I mean, why do we act like we need to make orks lose models to morale in the first place in order for it to be balanced? Orks die to shooting just the same. I'm sure tau gunlines don't give a darn about orks being leadership 30.

 Don Savik wrote:
I mean, why do we act like we need to make orks lose models to morale in the first place in order for it to be balanced? Orks die to shooting just the same. I'm sure tau gunlines don't give a darn about orks being leadership 30.

because it would upset the space mary sue... err i mean marine player's feelings that lowly ork models whom a single space marine should be able to take on by the thousands per gav thrope's bad fluff while carrying on casual conversations with their brethren on vox... might god forbid do one thing better than them

 Marmatag wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

pingu wrote:
Most of you are fixated on Fnp and Inv. saves, have you seen the teleport power??

You can teleport ANY infantry unit within 9 inches of an enemy unit (without scatter) and then charge in the same turn, even first !
That is completely bonkers. Can you imagine how hard will it be to play around that ? A large unit can engage more than one enemy unit if they deploy close to each other. If your enemy spreads his units across the deployment zone, you can simply teleport near one of them, kill it, and then they will have a hard time killing your teleported unit (because their units are far apart). Only way I can think of to defend myself from this is having cheap units surround my strong squishy units or just playing super heavies who dont care about ork mobs (Imperial knights for example).
I liked most of the new rules for 40k, but this kind of reliable deep striking without consequence (like we have seen with Mawloc) and ability to charge in the same turn seems really broken.

overwatch if i recall correctly will still be a thing, 9 inches away sure but then declare a charge and maybe that 9 inch becomes 11 inches away and difficult vs tau but stays 9 inches vs tyranids.

You only need to be within 1 inch for the charge to be successful, so it's really an 8+.

It has been stated that you must deploy more than 9" away, so you do need to roll a 9 to be successful on the charge.

 Galef wrote:
This is what I don't like. Mob rule is great for LD = unit size. That makes sense.
But the fact that it doesn't even matter how many you kill in a unit because a nearby unit gives them LD30? That's a bit weird to me.

So in your example, you have to kill 10 models FROM EACH UNIT before Morale even matters.
The one thing I do like about this is that it makes opponents have to think about which units they want to shoot at. That's always a good thing for game health.
And anything to help the poor Greenskins make a comeback, I'm all for.

Come to think of it, what if it means that Ork units can use the unmodified LD of nearby units? So they could use a Warbosses LD10, but not the Mob Rule LD of a 30 Boys unit?
Literally you get to treat your LD as YOUR unit size, or the LD of an nearby unit (not THEIR unit size)

Well, if you take out a middle squad, or severely reduce it, then take out one of the flanking squads or severely reduce that, you're going to pile on da pain! But really, what you just described requires having 90 boys to start with! That's not cheap. And they have to stay close to each other (though we don't know yet how close).

I think the big reason why people aren't happy with Mob Rule and Synapse is that GW said Morale would affects everyone, with only a few units being immune.
While Orks and Nids really do need the assist, they can basically "game" the system that GW said wouldn't be "gamed'.

That said, I love the idea that horde armies are back. Hopefully Daemons also have high LD as they do in AoS and can be taken in large units.

It's also entirely possible that the way these rules work are a bit different then they have been presented.
For example: Mob Rule says a unit can use their unit size as LD, or the LD of nearby units. What's the range? More importantly. do they get to use the unit size LD of that nearby unit, or just what is on the other unit's datasheet?
Synapse too might have a smaller range, meaning less overlap is possible and each Synapse creature that dies creates a gap to exploit.

-

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

pingu wrote:
Most of you are fixated on Fnp and Inv. saves, have you seen the teleport power??

You can teleport ANY infantry unit within 9 inches of an enemy unit (without scatter) and then charge in the same turn, even first !
That is completely bonkers. Can you imagine how hard will it be to play around that ? A large unit can engage more than one enemy unit if they deploy close to each other. If your enemy spreads his units across the deployment zone, you can simply teleport near one of them, kill it, and then they will have a hard time killing your teleported unit (because their units are far apart). Only way I can think of to defend myself from this is having cheap units surround my strong squishy units or just playing super heavies who dont care about ork mobs (Imperial knights for example).
I liked most of the new rules for 40k, but this kind of reliable deep striking without consequence (like we have seen with Mawloc) and ability to charge in the same turn seems really broken.

overwatch if i recall correctly will still be a thing, 9 inches away sure but then declare a charge and maybe that 9 inch becomes 11 inches away and difficult vs tau but stays 9 inches vs tyranids.

You only need to be within 1 inch for the charge to be successful, so it's really an 8+.

It has been stated that you must deploy more than 9" away, so you do need to roll a 9 to be successful on the charge.

Yes this is right. I stand corrected. Still, a very powerful ability. I'm assuming those boys can also shoot prior to their charge.

Any word on how coherency (or whatever the term is for your bases touching after deep strike) will work when doing a deep strike? It occurs to me that teleporting a large force may present logistical challenges on a 'busy' board.

I don't know, maybe I'm salty but nothing they've shown means orks are going to last long to tau/eldar shooting. Initiative and leadership buffs aside, 6+ armor saves suuuuuuuuuuck.

Who even knows if orks are going to have str 4 or some kind of furious charge equivalent.

What they've posted so far seems pretty cool.

I'm curious about ork shooting, as I like Bad Moonz. The changes in regards to twin-linked weapons and moving and shooting Heavy weapons don't hurt the orks, but they also don't help them near as much as they do high BS armies. I'm not super worried, as there's lots of ways they could still make shooty ork armies fun, I'm just curious.

I wonder if Boss Poles will play into the rules for other using the LD of other mobs? In older editions a fleeing unit of orks could "mob up" with a unit that wasn't fleeing to form a single unit. Boss Poles played a role in that I think, but my memory is kind of fuzzy.

 Galef wrote:
I think the big reason why people aren't happy with Mob Rule and Synapse is that GW said Morale would affects everyone, with only a few units being immune.
While Orks and Nids really do need the assist, they can basically "game" the system that GW said wouldn't be "gamed'.

I think it works for these two because it becomes integral to the game experience. With the Orks, you want to try thinning their numbers. I know that seems normal in any game, but Orks will have a tipping point. Once you've deal with so many of them, the rest will just start to crumble. Tyranids also will create a dynamic play experience where you want to kill their synapse, and the army will totally fall apart without that Synapse. In this way, both armies are still VERY much affected by Leadership, maybe even more so than many other armies, but just in a very different way. Space Marines and regular dudes will have to try to have their individual units survive like normal, but these horde armies will be playing a cautious game of protect and sacrifice.

 Don Savik wrote:
I don't know, maybe I'm salty but nothing they've shown means orks are going to last long to tau/eldar shooting. Initiative and leadership buffs aside, 6+ armor saves suuuuuuuuuuck.

Who even knows if orks are going to have str 4 or some kind of furious charge equivalent.

Remember that Orks are likely still T4, so Eldar and Tau need S8+ weapons to wound you on 2+. All those Scatterbikes are wounding you on 3+ now. That's a 17% drop.
And unless Windriders get a similar rule to Dark Eldar vehicles (I hope not, actually) they will suffer -1 To hit for the Scatter laser being Heavy.

And cover adds to Armour save. 5+ might not be great, but it means half the Orks will die.

 Yarium wrote:

I think it works for these two because it becomes integral to the game experience. With the Orks, you want to try thinning their numbers. I know that seems normal in any game, but Orks will have a tipping point. Once you've deal with so many of them, the rest will just start to crumble. Tyranids also will create a dynamic play experience where you want to kill their synapse, and the army will totally fall apart without that Synapse. In this way, both armies are still VERY much affected by Leadership, maybe even more so than many other armies, but just in a very different way. Space Marines and regular dudes will have to try to have their individual units survive like normal, but these horde armies will be playing a cautious game of protect and sacrifice.

Agreed.

-

Orks really are...kind of dull, I find is the main issue. In 7th, one of the most important tactical considerations is "when to Waaagh" which is usually either "never" (Zhadsnark) or "always" (Green Tide).

Be it Mek Guns/Grabbin' Klaws allowing the movement of enemy units, KFFs with variable buffs (akin to a Krielstone), etc.

Let's be real, I have no illusions about Orks being a competitive army in 8ed, I just hope it's not the NPE it often was under the 7th edition rules.

I ran a Green Tide formation joined by a Warboss with Big Bosspole (giving Fearless) and a Painboy (giving 5+ FNP) to the entire mob. It was literally one of the only viable Ork builds in 7th edition and it was a headache to play... moving and playing 100+ models on the table as a single unit is no small task, and it resulted in an extremely "samey" play experience every time.

The new rules eliminate the absolutely abhorrent and offensive 7th edition Mob Rule, which on its own is a massive improvement. The nerf to the Painboy hurts, but the new Mob Rule and access to KFF for all units near (not sure how close, presumably 6") the Big Mek is cool.

There will be many more details to sort through, but on the face of it, when considered within the context of what we've seen so far, if nothing else Orks will at least be FUN to play again. Most Ork players will be happy with that, and if they do OK competitively too, so much the better.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Orks really are...kind of dull, I find is the main issue. In 7th, one of the most important tactical considerations is "when to Waaagh" which is usually either "never" (Zhadsnark) or "always" (Green Tide).

Be it Mek Guns/Grabbin' Klaws allowing the movement of enemy units, KFFs with variable buffs (akin to a Krielstone), etc.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:

 Talamare wrote:
So I understood that the 5+ KFF and 6+ Pain Boy are SEPARATE rolls and you're allowed to take both.

One is an invuln and one is FNP. Or the equivalent in newhammer.

And while going from a 5+ FNP to a 6+ FNP is an objective nerf, painboyz are going to have an aoe effect, like KFFs, probably.

So, instead of giving 5+ FNP to one squad, a painboy could, potentially, give a 6+ to several. That could even out in the end.

Maybe cybork bodies could buff the FNP effect like, you know, it's supposed to.

I glanced it rapidly before heading out, and thought it said that KFF and Painboy would BOTH be FNPs, so like ... roll 6+ Tshirt, roll 6+ Pain, roll 5+ KFF
So, yea that was my major error.

6+ AoE FNP reminds me of that thing that Ethreals from Tau do, and I think most Tau players have said in the past that its basically garbage like 95% of the time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

pingu wrote:
Most of you are fixated on Fnp and Inv. saves, have you seen the teleport power??

You can teleport ANY infantry unit within 9 inches of an enemy unit (without scatter) and then charge in the same turn, even first !
That is completely bonkers. Can you imagine how hard will it be to play around that ? A large unit can engage more than one enemy unit if they deploy close to each other. If your enemy spreads his units across the deployment zone, you can simply teleport near one of them, kill it, and then they will have a hard time killing your teleported unit (because their units are far apart). Only way I can think of to defend myself from this is having cheap units surround my strong squishy units or just playing super heavies who dont care about ork mobs (Imperial knights for example).
I liked most of the new rules for 40k, but this kind of reliable deep striking without consequence (like we have seen with Mawloc) and ability to charge in the same turn seems really broken.

overwatch if i recall correctly will still be a thing, 9 inches away sure but then declare a charge and maybe that 9 inch becomes 11 inches away and difficult vs tau but stays 9 inches vs tyranids.

You only need to be within 1 inch for the charge to be successful, so it's really an 8+.

MORE THAN 9"
You need a 9

 Talamare wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:

 Talamare wrote:
So I understood that the 5+ KFF and 6+ Pain Boy are SEPARATE rolls and you're allowed to take both.

One is an invuln and one is FNP. Or the equivalent in newhammer.

And while going from a 5+ FNP to a 6+ FNP is an objective nerf, painboyz are going to have an aoe effect, like KFFs, probably.

So, instead of giving 5+ FNP to one squad, a painboy could, potentially, give a 6+ to several. That could even out in the end.

Maybe cybork bodies could buff the FNP effect like, you know, it's supposed to.

I glanced it rapidly before heading out, and thought it said that KFF and Painboy would BOTH be FNPs, so like ... roll 6+ Tshirt, roll 6+ Pain, roll 5+ KFF
So, yea that was my major error.

6+ AoE FNP reminds me of that thing that Ethreals from Tau do, and I think most Tau players have said in the past that its basically garbage like 95% of the time.

so take 30 boys with zero ap bolters. they get shot with 10 bolter shots from space marines. 6.6 hit, 3.3 wounds.

7th edition means 3.3 dead orks no armor save

8th edition 2.74 dead orks with armor save 6+ (~17%)

if they get the 6+(~17%) fnp after then 2.27 dead orks

if stacked with KFF 5++(~33%) then you have 1.5 dead orks meaning over half of nonrending wounds would be ignored

now anything with a rend value will of course change this but with the stacked save you lose less than half the current orks

assuming they were rending then 6+ (~17%) fnp takes 3.3 wounds to 2.74 and if in kff range 5++(~33%) 1.8 dead orks. still a pretty signifigant % not over half sure but 46% reduction

granted this is highly rounded napkin math so off by a few % probably but in the right ballpark

I'm really curious to see what the rules are going to be in regards to shooting through friendly and enemy units to target other units.

So, my combo of 30 shootaboyz and a wierdboy is finally playable.

Overall
- Ork horde is going to be somewhat more resilient with layering buffs. But we have no idea how resilient our indeps will be. Cause the moment we face a bunch of snipers...bb painboss, mek and wierdboy. Taking into consideration Guilliman's got 8 wounds, i doubt we'll see our non-warboss indeps with >4 wounds. And if painbosses and wierdboyz still have no access to armor, i'd expect to loose them in the first few turns. In this regard, vehicles can be more stable. Just in a sense that they aren't countered by a bunch of sniper drones. If you're running a footslogging horde, it might still be a good idea to still have a couple empty trukks to tokyo-drift in front of your indeps and eat overwatch + disrupt the enemy frontlines later on.
- We can effectively ignore morale with suffecient numbers - that means that even if you play bike spam or trukk rush, it could be a good idea to have a 30-strong blob to be an anchor for your army ld tests. Well, if you can keep up the speed - needs to be seen. If orks are movement 5 and trukks are movement 15, it can be problematic.
- Manz are even tougher now.
- Big choppas are power maces with 2 damage. Wonder how much they'd cost.
- Boyz are going to deal less initial damage in mellee but more will survive and the enemy will probably suffer some extra battleshock casualties later on.
- We still have no clue about how quick we are.

A 6+ Feel No Pain is a 17% increase in survivability, almost 1 in 5, and is only insignificant in a strange fantasy world where math is different.

I must admit when I first read the Painboy's ability I took it as a nerf. However reading this thread has given me the idea that his FNP covers any units in his range as opposed to a single group. If this is the case I feel much better about him. Everything else looks pretty good though.

Alcibiades wrote:
A 6+ Feel No Pain is a 17% increase in survivability, almost 1 in 5, and is only insignificant in a strange fantasy world where math is different.

Alcibiades wrote:
A 6+ is a 17% , almost 1 in 5, and in a strange fantasy world where math is different.

In 7th edition you have no save and a 5+ FNP
In 8th edition you have 6+ Save and a 6+ FNP

5/6 * 5/6 = 25/36
5+ FNP = 2/3 = 24/36

24/36 > 25/36

Hopefully the Painboy's ability will also stack with Cybork Body, unless Cybork Body goes back to being an invulnerable save or does something completely different (or ceases to exist).

I wonder if there will be Cyborks in the Forgeworld book? They don't make a specific model for them IIRC. Hopefully they don't get rid of them. They used to be in the regular Ork codex (it might have been WD) so maybe they'll make a return.

Also, if you're very deliberate with your buff bubbles, you could probably get the extra 6+ to, I dunno, 90 Boyz, if you chain a couple Boyz from 30 strong mobs to the Painboy? I'm sure with average luck, the prevented casualties will add up. With a little above average luck, your opponent may groan when your blobs absorb more shots than they really ought to...

I could see rushing some Trukks/bikes/Da Jump to force early (turn 1 or 2) close combats, tying up a bunch of shooty units while the large morale hordes and IC buff bubbles slog.

What I really want to know is whether it'll be worth bothering to convert one of my bikers to a Painboy or not.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Orks really are...kind of dull, I find is the main issue. In 7th, one of the most important tactical considerations is "when to Waaagh" which is usually either "never" (Zhadsnark) or "always" (Green Tide).

Be it Mek Guns/Grabbin' Klaws allowing the movement of enemy units, KFFs with variable buffs (akin to a Krielstone), etc.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

He's saying they're boring, simple enough.

lonestarr777 wrote:
I don't think 6pt boyz deserve better than a 6+ save, I always happily paid my 4pts to give them eavy armor and a decent save of 4+.

What I think is why the feth should I be excited about occasionally getting to roll for a 6+ save thats bairly ever gonna fething happen or be a available. I'll sooner chuck 14 boyz in the deadpile than roll a fistful of dice cause two might not die, its a waste of fething time and nothing to be thrilled over. Oh but you get to roll 12 dice again on the offchance, oh, no sixes? Yeah their still dead.

What I want to have a better invuln save of some kind are my fething nobz or warbosses but theyll probably be stuck with the stupid once in a game miracle save while they still get fething blendered.

Those 2 you save then means you lose 2 less to battleshock, which means you have 4 more boyz than you would have had, therefore increasing your leadership for next turns battleshock by 4, saving 4 more boyz. Rolling those 2 saves just ended up saving 8 boyz in 2 turns. Scenarios like this occurring will be very regular.

In general, Orks seem to be getting helped along by, not just their new rules, but also a fair few structural game changes that benefit them.

The special rules changes that will help them out quite a bit are Mob Rule and 'Ere We Go of course. Your leadership being equal to the mob size as well as providing a bubble effect for nearby units will make a 30-strong unit of Orks on foot a massive boon to all the specialist units around them and actually makes proper hordes a thing for Orks. Re-rolling charge distance will mean they get that charge off more often and get to strike first more.

But the big boons for them are structural changes that will make sure the army hums along better than it used to.

First and foremost, toughness 4 is likely the most improved value of tougness among the common values found on basic troops. What few low-strength weapons existed still wound it on the same numbers, but more importantly, that all important S6-7 bracket that used to be preferred no longer does them in on a 2+. This means most anti-infantry weapons will be wounding on a 3+ down from a 2+ (except the long-ignored S5 stuff that might see more play these days). Next, anything that was AP5 or worse in the old edition now allows Orks to save. Considering how deadly basic small arms used to be to Orks you will now expect to keep a few more Orks when facing down normal infantry fire. Combined with owner-chosen casualties, this means no more charges ruined by OW fire.

The next gigantic change is assault. First, Orks are no longer relegated to striking in initiative order. If they charge, they strike first. More than that, alternating activation actually favours large units that can send all their attacks through at once in subsequent rounds of combat. With re-rollable charges Orks are looking at initiating contact more often and with the Mob rule, they benefit from having at least a few proper horde units.

And of course slugga boyz are going to like the new pistol rule for giving them a bit of ongoing firepower on their own turn if they're locked in assault.

There is also a better than even chance that WS4=WS3+ now, which means that Ork attacks in hand-to-hand are likely to land a lot more often. But that's just speculation on my part.

Beyond that, tougher meganobz, Da Jump being back (and basically giving Orks some alpha-strike potential using foot-slogging units), area-effect buffs, and the possibility that all of those walkers and vehicles may actually stick around for a bit instead of imploding if an auto-cannon so much as sneezes in their direction and it looks like a lot of their major woes are getting handled not just by specific rules, but also by the structural changes of the game itself.

Hopefully that'll be enough to let them krump stuff good and proper. I enjoy my friend's "looted everything" Ork list and hopefully playing against them will be fun and challenging again.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Orks really are...kind of dull, I find is the main issue. In 7th, one of the most important tactical considerations is "when to Waaagh" which is usually either "never" (Zhadsnark) or "always" (Green Tide).

Be it Mek Guns/Grabbin' Klaws allowing the movement of enemy units, KFFs with variable buffs (akin to a Krielstone), etc.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

He's saying they're boring, simple enough.

More specifically, cognitive dissonance has coerced Magic Juggler into trying to prefer 7th edition to 8th as much as humanly possible.

 Galef wrote:
I think the big reason why people aren't happy with Mob Rule and Synapse is that GW said Morale would affects everyone, with only a few units being immune.
While Orks and Nids really do need the assist, they can basically "game" the system that GW said wouldn't be "gamed'.

That said, I love the idea that horde armies are back. Hopefully Daemons also have high LD as they do in AoS and can be taken in large units.

It's also entirely possible that the way these rules work are a bit different then they have been presented.
For example: Mob Rule says a unit can use their unit size as LD, or the LD of nearby units. What's the range? More importantly. do they get to use the unit size LD of that nearby unit, or just what is on the other unit's datasheet?
Synapse too might have a smaller range, meaning less overlap is possible and each Synapse creature that dies creates a gap to exploit.

-

That first paragraph is just people not knowing what 'immune' means.

Space marines were immune to leaderdhip because they ignored all of the negative effects of morale just by being space marines. They didn't have to do anything to gain that immunity they were immune by existing and there was nothing for your opponent to do in response.

Orks and Nids in 8th are NOT immune to bravery, they have deliberate, non-trivial decisions they have to make in list building and on the table to mitigate leadership while the opponent had specific actions they can take to increase the enemies volatility in terms of leadership.

It's not immunity, it's TACTICS and people seem to be ignoring that fact, probably because we haven't actually needed to use tactics since...either Cabal or Angels of death whichever one came first.

Well put, ERJAK.