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Fenris-77 wrote: I'm not sure your logic really works there. You're saying that an across the board +1 is somehow worse for one army than another because they have different saves to begin with? It's the exact same 16.66% bonus for everyone.
It's not.
If you have a 3+ save, which gets buffed to a 2+, your save is effectively twice as good (you die 1/6 times instead of 1/3).
If you go from a 6+ to a 5+, it's only 25% better (out of 6 wounds, you get 4 casualties instead of 5).
Flat +saves are better when you already have a good armor. The same way -1save is most effective against good armor (you kill twice as many termies with AP-1 weapons than you do with -0AP, whereas the bonus is pretty small on guys with 6+ saves)
"If you have a 2+ it is possible that just one die can kill you, but it is expected that it should take at least six. If you have a 3+, then it is expected that just three dice should kill."
I am the kinda ork that takes his own washing machine apart, puts new bearings in it, then puts it back together, and it still works.
Fenris-77 wrote: I'm not sure your logic really works there. You're saying that an across the board +1 is somehow worse for one army than another because they have different saves to begin with? It's the exact same 16.66% bonus for everyone.
It's not.
If you have a 3+ save, which gets buffed to a 2+, your save is effectively twice as good (you die 1/6 times instead of 1/3).
If you go from a 6+ to a 5+, it's only 25% better (out of 6 wounds, you get 4 casualties instead of 5).
Flat +saves are better when you already have a good armor. The same way -1save is most effective against good armor (you kill twice as many termies with AP-1 weapons than you do with -0AP, whereas the bonus is pretty small on guys with 6+ saves)
That is fallacious logic, as you're basing those percents off of existing armor saves rather than the d6 on which they're rolled. It's a straight 16.67% improved chance to save for every unit unless you're already at 2+, period.
An Ork with a 6+ will always require more than one inflicted wound to save 16.7% of time, everytime.
The mighty six up save is it's own value, if make even one you have bought another boy. If a 1W terminator doesn't make five saves then punch yourself in the nads
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/29 14:51:01
I am the kinda ork that takes his own washing machine apart, puts new bearings in it, then puts it back together, and it still works.
even more simple.
Weapons with ap -3 (is hard find better...and those usualy ignored cover and armor xD) still allow marine saves with a 5+ (nearly like before)
Now near any decent weapon will let a 6+ or zero save on an ork.
Compared when the ork has a 4+ on same ruins, yeah, is a nerf. The more armored, the better.
Also how they present the orks way better than before and with more survivor capacity becuase the normal bolter allow them use their 6+ save is....like a bad joke XD
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/29 16:46:48
Fenris-77 wrote: I'm not sure your logic really works there. You're saying that an across the board +1 is somehow worse for one army than another because they have different saves to begin with? It's the exact same 16.66% bonus for everyone.
Math says otherwise
Against a (chaos) space marine and his bolter, an ork and a space marine has the following change of taking a wound:
Ork: 2/3*1/2*5/6 = .27 or %27 to take a wound
Space marine: (2/3)*(1/2)*(1/3) = .11 or %11.
Now lets put that ork and marine in cover
Ork in cover = (2/3)*(1/2)*(2/3) = .22 or %22
Spess Mahrine in cover = (2/3)*(1/2)*(1/6) .055, or %5.5
So, the space marine is taking half the amount of wounds he was previously, The ork clearly is not.
But the fact is that now orks saves worst vs most of weapons than before when they are in cover. Meanwhile a marine have more or less the same.
So if one saves the same than before and other saves worst......the second is nerfed more than the first..
And I can bet that oks have not a drop in point cost.
In any case I am worried about how will change the area shoots. If they change a large area for a 1d6 shots like on leman russ, then is a nerf to orks. Think on this, the area, beside the BS2, still had a nice amout of chances to hit or fall close enough to kill a nice amount of people.
But if they change to a 1d6...will become really useless with BS2 hahahaa. They will need change into 3d6 or increase the BS
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/29 18:16:46
So your average roll of 3 means you will hit 1 FETHING TIME, and your highest, OMG I LOVE MY LUCK Roll of a 6 means you will hit 2 FETHING TIMES. This thing officially sucks balls unless it costs 10pts.
Ork blast weapons are going to be extremely bad now, unless crazy cheap. Regular blast weapons are pretty bad compared with what they were, and they're not also contending with ork BS of 2 (or 3 for gretchin I guess)...
Fully Painted Armies: 2200pts Orks 1000pts Space Marines 1200pts Tau 2500pts Blood Angels 3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades and 1700pts Daemons 450pts Imperial Knights
unless everyones armies go up in price significantly orks are fethed this edition as well :(
Just to point out some of the highlights from this
Battlewagon went UP in price.
Killa Kanz went UP in price. (because going from 35-50 in 7th wasn't enough)
Trukkz....WHAT THE EVER LOVING FETH! They sucked at 30pts now they cost..wait for it 76pts. Are you smoking crack?
Warbikers, the only good unit we had in 7th...yup they went up in price 50%
And finally, the ever lovable, totally irrelevant Stompa, Everyone thought that at 770pts it was about 200pts over priced, Im glad GW listened because now? ITS 900PTS!
I expect prices going up for every army and the standard format to be set around 2500 points. How do you fit a 900 point stompa otherwise? It was almost impossible to stick before at 1850, and now it's even more expensive. Buggies and koptas are also double their previous cost.
Meganoz at only 25 points are suspcious though, I guess we will have to pay even for a basic TL shoota.
Blackie wrote: I expect prices going up for every army and the standard format to be set around 2500 points. How do you fit a 900 point stompa otherwise? It was almost impossible to stick before at 1850, and now it's even more expensive. Buggies and koptas are also double their previous cost.
Meganoz at only 25 points are suspcious though, I guess we will have to pay even for a basic TL shoota.
Those prices are all without any weapons/upgrades. So Meganobz will have to purchase their Power Klawz and Shootas.
Everything we have got more expensive. I think the only thing that got cheaper was Stormboyz who went from 9pts a model to 8. Keeping in mind that nobody used Stormboyz in 7th except for crazy people like me
Automatically Appended Next Post: and with that said, they are probably going to make us pay for the stupid jump pack now that I think about it. So they probably cost 12-15 a model now
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/31 17:32:28
well this is worrysome for my beloved orks... there does not seem to be an option for ard boys / eavy armor boyz , I have a copy of the xenos 2 book now and there is not an upgrade in the armor section of points nor a separate entry for them
also they doubled dowbn on stupid, stompa is 900 frickin points granted it now has 40 hull points. ... I get that things went up in cost seemingly lots of stuff btu I also have xenos 1 and the wraithknight is only 405, has 25 twounds (both are the same toughness 8)
Proof that you can say anything with numbers if it suits your rhetorical purpose.
3+ saves 66.6% of the time, and 2+ saves 83.3%
6+ save 16.6% of the time, and 5+ saves 33.3%
You can talk about the odds of failing all you like, but those two saves improve by exactly the same percentage. It's the answer to the question "How much better does cover make my armour save?", rather than, "what are my chances of failing that new armour save".. In the case of the second question then sure, odds pf failing matter, but we were talking about the across the board benefit of cover, which is indeed identical no matter what save you started with.
Back to the topic at hand though - the basic boy got +1S and +1A base for the same points. That's a massive buff, not even counting choppas and the large mob benefits. Huge deal. The cost of Tankbustas and the other elites at 17 ea is high, but that's true of most specialist infantry that packs a lot of heavy weapons.
Yeah, the vehicles are more expensive, but that's true to exactly the same extent in every list, it's not a nerf to Orks. I'm OK with the Trukk compared to a lot of other transports given the across the board point creep for vehicles. It's not awesome, it's not terrible.
IDK, it's not that I agree or disagree, it just seem slike a lot of the issues people have are a product of 8th edition generally, and that affect every army. rather than being specific design flaws in the Ork list.
He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all.
G00fySmiley wrote: well this is worrysome for my beloved orks... there does not seem to be an option for ard boys / eavy armor boyz , I have a copy of the xenos 2 book now and there is not an upgrade in the armor section of points nor a separate entry for them
It might be that they're planning to come out with a new kit for them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/31 18:13:14
Orks Boyz are Redcoats in space.
3 attacks when 20 or more, defender allocates all wounds ("Ready Formation")
No more templates. ("Form Ranks")
Free Shootas. ("Muskets Ready")
Rokkits can target separate units ("Take Aim")
Infinite Overwatch ("Fire")
S4 at all times, even when charged. ("Fix Bayonets")
Fenris-77 wrote: Proof that you can say anything with numbers if it suits your rhetorical purpose.
3+ saves 66.6% of the time, and 2+ saves 83.3%
6+ save 16.6% of the time, and 5+ saves 33.3%
You can talk about the odds of failing all you like, but those two saves improve by exactly the same percentage. It's the answer to the question "How much better does cover make my armour save?", rather than, "what are my chances of failing that new armour save".. In the case of the second question then sure, odds pf failing matter, but we were talking about the across the board benefit of cover, which is indeed identical no matter what save you started with.
Back to the topic at hand though - the basic boy got +1S and +1A base for the same points. That's a massive buff, not even counting choppas and the large mob benefits. Huge deal. The cost of Tankbustas and the other elites at 17 ea is high, but that's true of most specialist infantry that packs a lot of heavy weapons.
Yeah, the vehicles are more expensive, but that's true to exactly the same extent in every list, it's not a nerf to Orks. I'm OK with the Trukk compared to a lot of other transports given the across the board point creep for vehicles. It's not awesome, it's not terrible.
IDK, it's not that I agree or disagree, it just seem slike a lot of the issues people have are a product of 8th edition generally, and that affect every army. rather than being specific design flaws in the Ork list.
Boyz got +1 strength and lost Furious Charge, thats fine because we needed it like crazy. We DID NOT gain +1 attacks though. Boyz have always been 2 attacks base. The bonus for Choppa sounds good but it looks like they removed the bonus for having 2 CCWs or possibly the +1 attack for Charging bonus (not sure yet) so if thats the case it looks like CC Boyz will have 3 attacks base with choppa, where as before they had, wait for it.....3 attacks base and 4 on the charge.
Warbikes, Battlewagonz, and a few others things rose in price about 50%, Trukkz more then DOUBLED their points cost, for whatever god forsaken reason they added 130pts to the cost of a Stompa. Nobody takes the stompa because it sucked in 7th. Now they increased the cost, took away blast weapons (the only way to hit anything with the stompa) and gave us more weapons then Jam and cant be fired again. Yeah no thanks. I'll take that 400pt Eldar Wraithknight instead, hell i'll take 2 of them for less then the cost of a single stupid Stompa.
I am not at all happy so far with 8th. I am really hoping against hope that we get a lot of faction specific rules or klan rules that make up for all these stupidly high prices and nerfs.
Automatically Appended Next Post: and i forgot about the +1 attacks for being over 20boyz. How long do you think they will get that particular bonus? i'll give you a hint, not that long. Not when cover saves for orks got nerfed, our FNP went from 5+ to 6+ , but we do get our handy dandy 6+ armor save against bolters now right?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/31 18:16:54
Slugga Boyz aren't quite as good on the charge, depending on buffs, but are now better in subsequent rounds of combat.
G00fySmiley wrote: also they doubled dowbn on stupid, stompa is 900 frickin points granted it now has 40 hull points. ... I get that things went up in cost seemingly lots of stuff btu I also have xenos 1 and the wraithknight is only 405, has 25 twounds (both are the same toughness 8)
Do Wraithknights have to buy their weapons?
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/05/31 18:31:11
Anyone else think the Nob with Banner is stupid good? Your Ork boyz now hitting on a 2+ in combat. The only real downside is that he competes for a slot with other elite choices.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: Slugga Boyz aren't quite as good on the charge, depending on buffs, but are now better in subsequent rounds of combat.
G00fySmiley wrote: also they doubled dowbn on stupid, stompa is 900 frickin points granted it now has 40 hull points. ... I get that things went up in cost seemingly lots of stuff btu I also have xenos 1 and the wraithknight is only 405, has 25 twounds (both are the same toughness 8)
Do Wraithknights have to buy their weapons?
yes they come out to over 500 points
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/31 18:39:04
Yes, the Boyz did indeed gain an attack. Every HtH unit in the game lost the +1A for having pistol/CCW, and the +1A on the charge. All of them. Not all of those units received a bonus attack on their statline. The Orks did, ergo they gained an attack - not relative to 7th, but in the context of 8th.
You keep comparing 7th to 8th and 8th to 8th without differentiating. Those are very different comparisons. I feel you about the Trukks, I really do, but the hike isn't out of line with what the other armies now pay for their transports. At which point I'm not 100% sure what your point is (no offense meant).
He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all.
Boyz got +1 strength and lost Furious Charge, thats fine because we needed it like crazy. We DID NOT gain +1 attacks though. Boyz have always been 2 attacks base. The bonus for Choppa sounds good but it looks like they removed the bonus for having 2 CCWs or possibly the +1 attack for Charging bonus (not sure yet) so if thats the case it looks like CC Boyz will have 3 attacks base with choppa, where as before they had, wait for it.....3 attacks base and 4 on the charge.
Also forgot the pistol which can fire during the shooting phase.
So 2A base. +1 for over 20 boyz. +1 for Choppa. +1 for Slugga.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/31 18:50:37
hobojebus wrote: Yeah there's no +1 for two weapons anymore so orks are at the same attacks they were before with the chainsword change.
Except now they hit better so they average 2 hits per round (unless over 20 then it is 2.67) whereas before it was 2 hits on the charge and 1.5 after that . Static S 4 also means they wound better than before on average (same on the charge, better after).
A unit of 30 boyz in 7e against MEQ on charge = 10 wounds (assuming they all lived to attack, but given initiative that rarely happened)
In 8th against MEQ on the charge = 13.333 wounds, but they strike first.
On a non charge round
7e = 5 wounds
8e = 13.333 wounds.
So they are significantly better on average, and no worse under the best circumstances of 7th. This also discounts any pistol shooting they do in 8e.
Now 30 boys will never make it to combat unharmed but even smaller squads the advantage is with 8e on offense as they are never statistically worse than 7e given the best condition for 7e.
Fenris-77 wrote: Yes, the Boyz did indeed gain an attack. Every HtH unit in the game lost the +1A for having pistol/CCW, and the +1A on the charge. All of them. Not all of those units received a bonus attack on their statline. The Orks did, ergo they gained an attack - not relative to 7th, but in the context of 8th.
You keep comparing 7th to 8th and 8th to 8th without differentiating. Those are very different comparisons. I feel you about the Trukks, I really do, but the hike isn't out of line with what the other armies now pay for their transports. At which point I'm not 100% sure what your point is (no offense meant).
I'm not sure I follow you on the gaining an attack thing, as orks had two attacks in their statline previously. (Overall I'm pretty happy with the changes regarding boyz, don't get me wrong.)
I'd like to see the stats on the trukk. I'm wondering if it will be good at smashing into things like the Battlewagon.
Bonespitta's Badmoons 1441 pts. 
1000pts Space Marines 
1200pts Tau 
2500pts Blood Angels 
3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades 
and 1700pts Daemons 
450pts Imperial Knights 
