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Fenris-77 wrote: Yes, the Boyz did indeed gain an attack. Every HtH unit in the game lost the +1A for having pistol/CCW, and the +1A on the charge. All of them. Not all of those units received a bonus attack on their statline. The Orks did, ergo they gained an attack - not relative to 7th, but in the context of 8th.
You keep comparing 7th to 8th and 8th to 8th without differentiating. Those are very different comparisons. I feel you about the Trukks, I really do, but the hike isn't out of line with what the other armies now pay for their transports. At which point I'm not 100% sure what your point is (no offense meant).
I'm not sure I follow you on the gaining an attack thing, as orks had two attacks in their statline previously. (Overall I'm pretty happy with the changes regarding boyz, don't get me wrong.)
I'd like to see the stats on the trukk. I'm wondering if it will be good at smashing into things like the Battlewagon.
The trukk is better than a rhino, but the deff rolla is the big buff to the Battlewagon in combat.
Trukk is 3A at S6 on a 5+, or S7 if you buy a cheap Wrecking Ball, no AP, 1D. Not great for anything 'ard.
And yeah, I'm crunching numbers fomr a lot of lists just now. The boyz did indeed have 2A previously. I was thinking Berserkers (I think, lotta balls in the air right now.). Mea culpa gents.
He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all.
That's a bit of a bummer, I was hoping that Trukks might be more like Razorbacks except instead of shooting things with them we smash tehm into things.
Regular Nobz are looking pretty good.
Vehicles can only be repaired once a turn, so I guess there will be no loading up a 40 wound Stompa with MSU Lootas, Burnas and Big Meks and turning it into an unkillable murder mountain.
I kinda like the waag banner ork nob. And some othe rentries. Still reading trough all the datasheets its a lot to read. But there seem to be some significant nerfs and restrictions in war gear / weapon options hidden in there. Burna flamers make me wish I was I space marine, and trukks have only 1 option... : (
On the other hand the bubble chucka seems fun. in a odd time consuming way : )
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/31 19:32:48
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Breng77 wrote: Anyone else think the Nob with Banner is stupid good? Your Ork boyz now hitting on a 2+ in combat. The only real downside is that he competes for a slot with other elite choices.
Seems pretty good, and some of the detachments are pretty Elite heavy so it doesn't seem like it would be hard to fit in a few and still have slots left over for other things.
Breng77 wrote: Anyone else think the Nob with Banner is stupid good? Your Ork boyz now hitting on a 2+ in combat. The only real downside is that he competes for a slot with other elite choices.
Seems pretty good, and some of the detachments are pretty Elite heavy so it doesn't seem like it would be hard to fit in a few and still have slots left over for other things.
yeah the more I play with detachments I'm seeing a lot of benefit to only ever taking the minimum requirements in each detachment as much as possible.
So a battalion for troops and a couple HQ, then taking a second detachment like a vanguard for an extra command point and elites. That would net you 7 CP.
I think Orks could also fill out a Brigade detachment if you went a bit more MSU with units, though I'm not sure that is the way to way to go as far as utility.
seems like the boys 1 upgrade into a nob is free too. I wonder if the nob rule that stops boys from running confers from the nob that's part of the squad?
The fluff is like ketchup and mustard on a burger. Yes it's desirable, yes it makes things better, but no it doesn't fundamentally change what you're eating and no you shouldn't just drown the whole meal in it.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: Slugga Boyz aren't quite as good on the charge, depending on buffs, but are now better in subsequent rounds of combat.
G00fySmiley wrote: also they doubled dowbn on stupid, stompa is 900 frickin points granted it now has 40 hull points. ... I get that things went up in cost seemingly lots of stuff btu I also have xenos 1 and the wraithknight is only 405, has 25 twounds (both are the same toughness 8)
Do Wraithknights have to buy their weapons?
the 900 for the stompa only includes deff cannon, supa rokkits, and mega choppa
supa gatler is 28 points more
3 big shootas if taking as modeled 18 points for all 3
skorcha 17
tl big shoota 14
yeah is it me or is the stompa a bit lacking. It seems to me that most knights dump out just as much dmg for half the points and when you take the inv save into account do not have that much of a difference in hull points.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Is there any titans can stomp on infantry rule that I am missing ?
oldzoggy wrote: yeah is it me or is the stompa a bit lacking. It seems to me that most knights dump out just as much dmg for half the points and when you take the inv save into account do not have that much of a difference in hull points.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Is there any titans can stomp on infantry rule that I am missing ?
So in combat it has 4 attacks... Thats it :\ Sure its cool vs bit things with its 6 auto damage or its 3x hits on critters but no mortal wounds and no real anti horde make me doubt if it is worth the 900 points. It just seems lacking when compared to close combat monsters that are only a fraction of the point cost.
This this sure isn't close to being as deadly as my old double hellflamer claw stompa.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/31 20:27:45
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Pretty much confirms that I'm never going to buy a Stompa. Never had a desire for one before, definitely don't now.
I'm a bit miffed at price increases across the board (barring a few exceptions) as well. The only unit that seems to have gotten an outright buff are deffkoptas with more wounds, MANz with more wounds, and Tankbustas with loads of options.
Seriously, one of them can take a pair of rocket pistols that shoot 2 shots each. That's 4 shots total, not only in shooting, but also close combat.
"The undead ogre believes the sack of pies is your parrot, and proceeds to eat them. The pies explode, and so does his head. The way is clear." - Me, DMing what was supposed to be a serious Pathfinder campaign.
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Awwww, for some reason I thought that the Stompa's weapons all cost 0.
oldzoggy wrote: So in combat it has 4 attacks... Thats it :\
Sure its cool vs bit things with its 6 auto damage or its 3x hits on critters but no mortal wounds and no real anti horde make me doubt if it is worth the 900 points.
It just seems lacking when compared to close combat monsters that are only a fraction of the point cost.
This this sure isn't close to being as deadly as my old double hellflamer claw stompa.
It has two different attack profiles, one of which does a lot of damage but only one attack while the other does triple attacks but less damage (still S10, AP-2, D3 Damage).
So it can do 4-12 attacks, depending on which profiles you choose.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vitali Advenil wrote: Seriously, one of them can take a pair of rocket pistols that shoot 2 shots each. That's 4 shots total, not only in shooting, but also close combat.
Isn't the weapon profile for the pair of pistols, so it's just two shots? Still a good weapon, depending on points.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/31 20:42:54
oldzoggy wrote: Sure it has the alternative option to use the 3x its that gets the equivalent of 12 attacks. But are those really worth it 900+ pt?
They are only at ap-2. This thing costs as much as an small army but somehow struggles to kill a 5 man tactical squad in single round of close combat.
Spoiler:
12 & 3+ to hit -> 8 hits
8 hits 2+ to wound -> 6 2/3
6 2/3 saves on 3+ (-2) = 4,44 dead marines
You're right, that doesn't seem worth it. Small solace is that it would also *probably* kill about 3 terminators.
I'm having a hard time judging things in general. There are so many new things and different ways they can work together that my initial impressions of a lot of things are probably wrong.
I'm really hoping I'm wrong about Killkannons, they just seem awful. If they didn't reduce transport capacity so much they might be worth the cost*, or if they reduced transport capacity but were dirt cheap they might be worth it, but by both costing a bunch and reducing transport capacity they really don't seem worth it.
*It's hard to tell. It's not that bad of a weapon until BS 2 gets factored in.
yeah the removal of templates really hurts orks. But then again its really hard to say how much since we haven't played with the new rules yet. They could just have factored the pricing of things right.
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All the complaining about things going up in points is ridiculous. Points went up for vehicles, monstrous creatures and heavy weapons for every single faction. That's just how much they're worth in 8th edition.
Na it is more than that. We where promised three things. - A perfect edition that was as balanced as they could get it. - Them listening to the player base. - All models are going to have rules on release. This created some expectations that they could not keep
While there are some serious improvements such as mob rule etc. This alone would be reason to celebrate if they didn't promise us the sky.
And there are also some serious let downs as an ork player. Most of our toys just aren't as shiny as others just look at the cool weapons that FW heavy support dread got and compare it with our stompa or our burna flamers compared to SM flamers. Some things have lost their soul such as the rarely grabba claw that would be great in this edition, and there are some serious new limitations on the customization on some of our models / units that used to be flexible. Not all our current models have rules and we have no FW support. . There are some issues that are still undressed, such as no close combat inv saves. or non stacking FNP.
My guess is that the ork codex is already written and that this is on purpose a little bland to give the codex some cool flavor..
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just look at our burna boys for example they used to suck but some players loved them anyways. The promise of every unit being playable, decent transports, new mob rule and new flamer stats made them stuff of dreams.
However its hard not to be let down when you finally see the burna flamers go from "Template S4 ap5 ignore cover" to "d3 auto hits S4 ap- no ignore cover". Or to see that our tank hammers now auto remove the model using it from the game.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/05/31 23:30:00
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oldzoggy wrote: My guess is that the ork codex is already written and that this is on purpose a little bland to give the codex some cool flavor..
That seems likely. They'd have a really hard time packing all the cool stuff for so many different Xenos factions into one book.
I remember how bland the 3rd Edition BRB army rules were. At least we're not nearly as bad as those.
I think they did manage to make the Tankbustas more flavorful than they were previously. The Rokkit Pistols and Tankhammers are really fun, and the Bomb Squigz are even more dangerous.
There are so many cool things that can be done with the orks. A lot of them might be designed to work with the existing units and make seems bad on its own a lot better with a certain Clan strategem or buff from a new elite unit. There's tons of ork stuff that's been cut over the years that they could bring back with a new coat of paint as well.
One funny thing is that many ork weapon profiles have fixed damage and are actually less random than their Imperial counterparts. Maybe they figured that ork shooting with its high number of shots but low BS was random enough, and they didn't want to deal with us table flipping after finally landing a shot and then rolling a 1 for damage.
I have mixed feelings about what I see in the leaks for orks.
I just built a new unit of 30 'ard boyz shootas, and had two other units of 'ard boy sluggas. Now they are just nicer looking regular boyz? I don't get why they were removed. I was looking forward to using them now that 4+ saves are so much better. I am worried that if they are added later in a codex that maybe they would be clan specific and be Goff only, and I just started painting a bunch of my army different clan colors. Planned on making my 'ard boy shootas Bad Moon colors. Not that the color part is too terribly important as long as you play with someone who isn't picky.
The force field is now 9 inches, which is nice, but feel no pain is 3 inches and only a 6+? I spose the healing wounds thing is cool. Obviously the painboy's role is to just protect the bigger HQ and maybe a small unit of elite guys like meganobz. At least he now gets a powerklaw or killsaw like the model has, and has enough wounds to stay alive for a while.
I almost felt ok with the stompa until I saw that they had to pay more points for some of their weapons.. it does seem a bit too much still, and to have a rule that is called Bigger and Stompier but not be able to actually stomp like a spindly little wraithknight? Stupid.
I also just built a unit of 30 stormboyz, which I am excited about. They look decent other than their crap saves. I don't really know how to read Zagstruk's klaws, does it mean that only 2 of his 6 attacks are the claws? Or does he only get the 2 in place of using the choppa? 6 attacks seems like a lot, or 7 since it is a choppa. It must be 2 with the Klaws and 5 with choppa right? That still seems like a lot for one guy, he and Snikrot are beasts in close combat. As they should be
Ghazghkul is pretty awesome now, but no cybork body anymore? Did they decide that now that he has a constant 4++ that no cybork for him anymore?
I like the cost and ability to take 3 deff dreads in a squad, that then act as individual units later. They got so much better for their still decent cost I think.
Only 3 Deffkoptas per squad now. Wasn't it 5 before? Their spinning blades thing seems nice, 2d3 Str 5 attacks.
Lootas cost more and burnas are less. Although Burnas got nerfed pretty hard with the d3 hits... If you only have 5 guys and roll a 1 or 2, they get 5 hits... at str 4, ap nothing... Seems they are designed more to be in melee now, but that doesn't seem right for them.
The nob with waaagh banner seems nice, but I just realized he is rather expensive for only having a shoota with 4 shots and the banner... a +2 Str no AP melee weapon. He can't take a power klaw, which all of my banner nobs are currently modeled with... Even the finecast one that is all they sell anymore has a power fist.. I wonder if/hope this was just an oversight..
Now on to regular Nobz.. which seem a bit crazy now. Sure only one guy gets cybork out of 5, and no invuln save, but they get heavy armor for free now, and at 17 points that is much less than they cost previously right? Before it was 18(+4 for armor). So effectively 5 points less. And at base Str 5 now, it feels really good so far.
To add to this, I can then take ammo runtz for 4 points each. Which are a model now.... That can take wounds.... And I assign wounds.... And don't count towards morale, but due to the wording of mob rule they do increase the leadership of the unit. So effectively Leadership 20 as long as they don't lose someone (like when the unit next to them is getting shot at instead of them), without even caring about losses until I have lost more than 10 models (all ammo runt/ablative wounds).
Am I missing something there? Or is 4 points for an ablative wound that allows me to re-roll one shooting attack per model (until they die) worth it? The re-roll isn't even their best feature given the cost of the new kombi weapons is a bit absurd at 20/19 points. I still only hit with the rokkit on 5s or 6s if I also shoot the shoota part... 20 points seems a bit much for that.
Seriously.. ammo runts to take those anti-tank-multi-wound shots away from my nobz. Sure the other player will know to shoot small arms at the unit before the tank weapons... but hopefully only after they have wasted a round of heavy shots on them first.
And i was just about to say "at least my Orkz got better, when my other armies got nerfed" but now that just does it. Chaos. White scars. 'Ard boy trukk spam. All 3 done for.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: It sucks that 'Ard Boyz are gone. Hopefully they'll put them back in later.
On the plus side 17 point Nobz have 'Eavy Armor built in for free. That is pretty rad.
They might actually be worth taking now, which is awesome, since they're some of my favorite looking models. I'll probably pick up a box since the ones I have now are dedicated sergeants for my boyz.
"The undead ogre believes the sack of pies is your parrot, and proceeds to eat them. The pies explode, and so does his head. The way is clear." - Me, DMing what was supposed to be a serious Pathfinder campaign.
6000 - Death Skulls, Painted
2000 - Admech/Skitarii, Painted
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: It sucks that 'Ard Boyz are gone. Hopefully they'll put them back in later.
On the plus side 17 point Nobz have 'Eavy Armor built in for free. That is pretty rad.
It does seem like a pretty good opportunity for them to freshen up Ork infantry by releasing a kit of 'Ardboyz, maybe with new weapon options. Possibly make them a dual kit of Skarboyz as well.
I do like the overall boost of Strength and free armor for some units, and the expanded weapon options for others. Flash Gits and Kommandos look like they got good buffs, which is nice as I've always liked those.
Am I missing something there? Or is 4 points for an ablative wound that allows me to re-roll one shooting attack per model (until they die) worth it? The re-roll isn't even their best feature given the cost of the new kombi weapons is a bit absurd at 20/19 points. I still only hit with the rokkit on 5s or 6s if I also shoot the shoota part... 20 points seems a bit much for that.
Seriously.. ammo runts to take those anti-tank-multi-wound shots away from my nobz. Sure the other player will know to shoot small arms at the unit before the tank weapons... but hopefully only after they have wasted a round of heavy shots on them first.
This might be an interesting move ( and the way to play orks). They do seem to take up transport space however. Notice that they are out on MANZ.. My guess is that they where meant to be used this way.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/01 05:41:52
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something you guys seemed to miss is the new faction rule system.
all ork units have a CLAN faction now. so if you lets say buy a trukk you have to declare which CLAN it has, ie goff, evil sunz etc (before the game starts)
special rules (like the new breaking heads for nobs or the pain/mekboy save/repair rolls) ONLY APPLY to units with the same CLAN.
so ghazskull for example has the goff CLAN tag. his waagh ability does not apply to units from other clans nor to units without a CLAN tag (like flash gitz)
LMAO Lets talk about flashgitz for a second. Nobody took them in 7th because they sucked balls. Why did they suck? No armor, random short ranged gun. So lets see what they did for them.
+1 BS YAY THANK GOD ITS A STANDARD 4+ NOW!!!!
Ohh wait, still 6+ armor, still short ranged gun, still no kustomization options at all, ohh, and still expensive as all hell. 27pts per model and i wonder if they have to purchase the snazz gun on top of that.
docdoom77 wrote: All the complaining about things going up in points is ridiculous. Points went up for vehicles, monstrous creatures and heavy weapons for every single faction. That's just how much they're worth in 8th edition.
a wave serpent clocks in with 107 points... it has a 16" move t7 w13 and a 3+ save and can transport 12 models and has a shield that will reduce incoming damage by one (to a min of 1) oh and it can fly...
a devilfish is also 107 points 12" t7 w12 and 3+ save and can transport 12 models as well
a trukk has 12" move t6 w10 4+ save can transport 12 models and can ramshackle damage away greater than 1 on a roll of 6+ and costs 76 points so 30points less than their counterparts
or compare the ghost ark for 170 points with 12" t6 w14 4+ insanely quantum shields (roll a d6 if wounded, if roll is less than the damage it received, the damage is ignored) + 3" bubble extra reanimations and ability to fly to a barebone battlewagon for 161 points with 12" t7 w16 4+ and the ridicoulous over the top buff of beeing able to move and firing all weaponory without penalties...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/01 18:41:01
docdoom77 wrote: All the complaining about things going up in points is ridiculous. Points went up for vehicles, monstrous creatures and heavy weapons for every single faction. That's just how much they're worth in 8th edition.
a wave serpent clocks in with 107 points...
it has a 16" move t7 w13 and a 3+ save and can transport 12 models and has a shield that will reduce incoming damage by one (to a min of 1) oh and it can fly...
a devilfish is also 107 points 12" t7 w12 and 3+ save and can transport 12 models as well
a trukk has 12" move t6 w10 4+ save can transport 12 models and can ramshackle damage away greater than 1 on a roll of 6+ and costs 76 points so 30points less than their counterparts
or compare the ghost ark for 170 points with 12" t6 w14 4+ insanely quantum shields (roll a d6 if wounded, if roll is less than the damage it received, the damage is ignored) + 3" bubble extra reanimations and ability to fly
to a barebone battlewagon for 161 points with 12" t7 w16 4+ and the ridicoulous over the top buff of beeing able to move and firing all weaponory without penalties...
To put it another way, we got BONED AGAIN! Yet another edition where GW feels the need to crap all over the Ork faction and remind us that they hate us.
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