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looking reading and rereading the points and rules listed so far I am more and more convinced that nobody on the development team actually plays orks. I think they thought back to what was fun to play against on orks and how they loved then orks picked up models by the shovelful and then said "lets have more of that" then looked at anything that could survive a turn of shooting and said "that thing is too good for the points we have to increase it, also ard boys have to go". it is infuriating to have invested the time money in a huge ork army, the countless hours painting each individual model (well assembly lines boyz) all to a reasonably good standard only to likely be spending another edition as the games worst army.

SemperMortis wrote:
LMAO Lets talk about flashgitz for a second. Nobody took them in 7th because they sucked balls. Why did they suck? No armor, random short ranged gun. So lets see what they did for them.

+1 BS YAY THANK GOD ITS A STANDARD 4+ NOW!!!!

Ohh wait, still 6+ armor, still short ranged gun, still no kustomization options at all, ohh, and still expensive as all hell. 27pts per model and i wonder if they have to purchase the snazz gun on top of that.

Snazzguns cost 0 so no. However one little trick is to take Ammo Runts which can be used as ablative wounds for them. Kaptain Badrukk also allows for rerolls of 1, and they have most of the kustomization options from the 4th edition already included (S5 instead of S4, 3 Shots instead of 2, higher penetration)

Ammo runts being only 4 points make them excellent bullet catchers.. Funnily enough this may be the most usable incarnation of Flash Gitz yet. Though I sincerely hope that in the codex they get actual options for either armor or able to kustomize their guns.

RedNoak wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:
All the complaining about things going up in points is ridiculous. Points went up for vehicles, monstrous creatures and heavy weapons for every single faction. That's just how much they're worth in 8th edition.

a wave serpent clocks in with 107 points...
it has a 16" move t7 w13 and a 3+ save and can transport 12 models and has a shield that will reduce incoming damage by one (to a min of 1) oh and it can fly...

a devilfish is also 107 points 12" t7 w12 and 3+ save and can transport 12 models as well

a trukk has 12" move t6 w10 4+ save can transport 12 models and can ramshackle damage away greater than 1 on a roll of 6+ and costs 76 points so 30points less than their counterparts

or compare the ghost ark for 170 points with 12" t6 w14 4+ insanely quantum shields (roll a d6 if wounded, if roll is less than the damage it received, the damage is ignored) + 3" bubble extra reanimations and ability to fly
to a barebone battlewagon for 161 points with 12" t7 w16 4+ and the ridicoulous over the top buff of beeing able to move and firing all weaponory without penalties...

Pretty sure the cheapest you can get a wave serpent for is 141 (107 + 24 for Twin Shuricannon + 10 for Twin Shuricat). Whereas a Trukk comes in at 82 minimum w/ Big Shoota. That's almost a 60 point difference.

I'm not saying it's perfect, but it's not the end of the world. I refuse to say Orks are ruined until I've run them on the table. Math and theory hammer are not that reliable.

How many Points was a serpent before? 110 base?
Normally you would have one with canons and sync cannons clocking in at about 120 points? That's a 20point increase with more shooting power (8 shots Vs 4 sync shots)

A trukk more than doubled its points (35 before with a ram) and lost its most valuable characteristic of being opentopped and so able to let CC troops drive, disembark and charge.

My favoured unit the trukkboyz (12 sluggaz with Nob pk and BP, trukk ram rokkits) went from 147 to 179 points.

Or compare 5 firedragons in a serpent with 10 tankbustaz in a trukk.
5 dragons + exarch 80-90? Points + serpent 141 so about 230 points. Should be more or less the same amount as in 7th.
10 tankbustaz + Nob an 2 bombsquigs 190? Points + minimum trukk 82 so about 270 points. Before in 7th it would have been about 190 points

Now tell me if the tankbustaz are 40 points more effective / durable than frikkin firedragons in a waveserpent.
And if their overall value really went up by 80 points from 7th to 8th

EDIT:
By the way the cannon upgrade went from 10 points to 2 or 3 points(can't remember). Because now you have to pay for the synch catapult anyway.

RedNoak wrote:
How many Points was a serpent before? 110 base?
Normally you would have one with canons and sync cannons clocking in at about 120 points? That's a 20point increase with more shooting power (8 shots Vs 4 sync shots)

A trukk more than doubled its points (35 before with a ram) and lost its most valuable characteristic of being opentopped and so able to let CC troops drive, disembark and charge.

My favoured unit the trukkboyz (12 sluggaz with Nob pk and BP, trukk ram rokkits) went from 147 to 179 points.

Or compare 5 firedragons in a serpent with 10 tankbustaz in a trukk.
5 dragons + exarch 80-90? Points + serpent 141 so about 230 points. Should be more or less the same amount as in 7th.
10 tankbustaz + Nob an 2 bombsquigs 190? Points + minimum trukk 82 so about 270 points. Before in 7th it would have been about 190 points

Now tell me if the tankbustaz are 40 points more effective / durable than frikkin firedragons in a waveserpent.
And if their overall value really went up by 80 points from 7th to 8th

EDIT:
By the way the cannon upgrade went from 10 points to 2 or 3 points(can't remember). Because now you have to pay for the synch catapult anyway.

Like I said, it's not perfect. I don't expect it to be, right out of the gate. Eyeballing it, I'd say the trukk is 15-20 points more expensive than it should be. But I'm not stressing over it either. I think, overall, it'll be fairly balanced (more balanced than 7th at any rate). For every oddity that makes me cringe, there is something amazing like S4 Orks and the best version of the Mob Rule yet.

I'll play some games when it drops and make my final assessment when I have some experience with the game.

5 Fire Dragons (with an apparently free exarch) comes to 120 points actually (they're 24 points a piece, being 7+17+0). The Wave Serpent is 141 points base. So it comes to around 261 points.

10 Tankbustas with 2 bomb squigs comes to around 190 points with the trukk being 82 points. Comes to 272 points, so the difference is actually 11 points, not 40. For 11 points they get a worse gun, more than twice the amount of wounds, not sucking in close combat, and transport that allows it's passengers to shoot while embarked (it still has the Open Topped characteristic).

And the wave serpeant has better weapons, better save and can fly.

The Firedragons are hitting on 3s I believe? (I dont know) and have special rules for their weapons unless those got taken away as well? so they will be unleashing a torrent of well aimed specialist firepower. Those 10 tankbustas have shorter range, no armor, terrible accuracy but twice the amount of shots. 10 shots = 3 hits.

The difference here is survivability which the Firedragons win hands down.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
5 Fire Dragons (with an apparently free exarch) comes to 120 points actually (they're 24 points a piece, being 7+17+0). The Wave Serpent is 141 points base. So it comes to around 261 points.

10 Tankbustas with 2 bomb squigs comes to around 190 points with the trukk being 82 points. Comes to 272 points, so the difference is actually 11 points, not 40. For 11 points they get a worse gun, more than twice the amount of wounds, not sucking in close combat, and transport that allows it's passengers to shoot while embarked (it still has the Open Topped characteristic).

oh sorry my fault. i slipped an column and thought the fblaster is 9p.

ok now it really isnt a significant point difference between both units.
so it isnt as bad as i initially thought. nonetheless the price hike of both units is significant.

7th edition 5 firedragons in serpent w/cannon 240p
8th -> 261p -> 8% increase
7th edition 10 tankbustaz w/nob and 2squigs in trukk w/ram 185p
8th -> 272p -> 32% increase

maybe some other can shed some light on this and check how other armys no 1 antitank unit is been treated pointwise (kabalite trueborn in venoms, sisters meltasquad in rhino etc)

EDIT:

SemperMortis wrote:

The difference here is survivability which the Firedragons win hands down.

in defence of the other side... i wouldnt say per se... we will have to wait and see how the meta shifts to really gage the survivalbility. of course the serpent is more durable than the trukk but the eldar need to step out of the vehicle to shoot. tankbustaz can remain inside.

nonetheless... the price increase is my "point" here. 8% vs 32%

EDIT2:
7th edition 10 tankbustaz w/nob and 2squigs in trukk w/ram 185p
8th -> 272p -> 32% increase

7th edition 5 firedragons in serpent w/cannon 240p
8th -> 261p -> 8% increase

7th 5 kabalite trueborns w/dracon 4 blasters and venom w/2 cannons 190p
8th 210p -> 10% increase

7th 5 havocs w/ 4melta and rhino w/dblade 155p
8th 205p -> 24% increase
or
7th 5 chosen w/ 4melta and rhino w/dblade 170p
8th 220p -> 23% increase

Rokkit Launchas actually have double the range, quadruple the range if Fire Dragons wants the full benefit of the Fusion Guns.

Fire Dragons also only get 2 abilities; the Exarch (not the whole unit) gets a reroll to hit, while the whole unit gets rerolls to wound against monsters and vehicles. That's about it.

Tankbustas actually have an improved version the second rule; the entire unit can reroll to hit against vehicles, but not monsters. And their trukk, for a paltry 6 points more, can swap out the big shoota for another rokkit launcha.

In fact the Wave Serpent's cost dramatically goes up the moment you start taking upgrades, which I suspect people will since a basic serpent with just a catapult and cannon isn't going to do much, while the Trukk's max cos remains low because it has few upgrades and what upgrades it does have is rather cheap. If you want two Shuri-cannons it goes up to 155 points, closing the point difference even more. Any other upgrade will start shooting the points past that of a squad of 10 tankbustas in a maxed out Trukk.

As for survivability, it all depends on what they're being shot at with. Anti-infantry guns with low AP and high volume of fire, the Fire Dragons have marginally more survivability due to their 3+ save. Against high AP guns, medium volume of fire guns, Fire Dragons starts losing out due to lower toughness and half the amount of wounds. Fire Dragons are also much more prone to being charged in melee because their gun's range is 12" while the Tankbustas can sit at a comfortable 24" range. Even if they get charged, Tankbustas are more suited to close combat, with 1 point of higher strength and double the amount of attacks (so with their already double numbers, 4 times the amount of attacks).

However all of this is just comparing the two units in a vacuum with one unit trying to match the exact role of another unit. I doubt anyone would be taking a Trukk with tankbustas for the simple reason that Da Jump is a thing. not only does that make them dramatically cheaper compared to Fire Dragons (A weirdboy costs much less than a trukk and isn't tied to just helping one unit), but it also makes them far more effective since they can either shoot things from their comfortable 24" range, or charge in with melta bombs and blow things to Gork's dank jockstraps. Likewise, the Fire Dragons get support from their Farseer.

EDIT: Another thing is Tankbustas are, surprisingly, a lot more consistent than Fire Dragons unless the latter are within their 6" effective range. Rokkits do a flat 3 damage rather than D6. While theoretically this averages out to more damage per fusion gun without rerolls, realistically it makes them less reliable in clearing out a heavy vehicle or monster if you roll badly and get a bunch of 1's and 2s. Rokkits instead consistently do 3 damage per unsaved wound, which actually makes them a lot better at guessing which unit you can and can't remove.

I said it on the other ork thread, but people are discounting opentopped a lot. Remember those fire dragons give up a turn of shooting to move in their transport. They used to fly up, hop out, and unload, now they fly up, wait, people move away, then they unload, move and shoot. Whereas the tankbustas can ride around firing rokkits out of the Trukk all the while.

So you could run Trukks at 190 and drive around firing 7 Rokkits out every turn without disembarking. For 210 you can throw 2 bomb squigs in for more damage. Seems ok to me.

Breng77 wrote:
I said it on the other ork thread, but people are discounting opentopped a lot. Remember those fire dragons give up a turn of shooting to move in their transport. They used to fly up, hop out, and unload, now they fly up, wait, people move away, then they unload, move and shoot. Whereas the tankbustas can ride around firing rokkits out of the Trukk all the while.

So you could run Trukks at 190 and drive around firing 7 Rokkits out every turn without disembarking. For 210 you can throw 2 bomb squigs in for more damage. Seems ok to me.

right until the Trukk dies and the Tankbustas all die to small arms fire because they only have 6+ armor and T4.

i know that comparing the effectivness in a vacuum is kinda pointless... but comparing the increase in points for similar units across different armies is not.

btw... just a little meaningless mathhammer

effectiveness against a vehicle with t7 and 4+ save

firedragons 5 s8 ap-4 shots
10/3 hits, lets say with rerolls: 12/3 hits. -> 24/9 or 2,7 wounds * D6 damage (avarage 3.5) -> 9.3 wounds total asuming more than 6" away or about 10.7 wounds if under 6"
tankbustaz 10 s8 ap-2
after rerolls 17/3 hits -> 34/9 or 3,8 wounds * 6+ save ~ 28/9 or 3.2 wounds * 3 dmg 9.6 wounds total

but the firedragons are not alone...
serpent 9 s6 shots (ignoring rending for simplification)
6 hits -> 2 wounds -> 1dmg

the trukk will do nothing^^ thats why you dont spend the 6 points for the rokkit

You can't just ignore Rend, though. That's a huge deal.

yes but i also ignored the one time squigs... so it evens out more or less... like we said. its mathammer not a representaion of actual effectivness...


btw.. mathammer the 2nd

tankbustaz vs firedragons if charged by 5 marines (sarge w/chainswrd)
survivability:
firedragons -> 6 attacks, 4 hit, 8/3 wounds, 8/9 go through so 0,9 dead dragons
bustaz: 6 attacks, 4 hits, 2 wounds, 5/3 go through so 1.7 dead bustaz

retaliation (for simplyfication lets say 1 dead dragon 2 dead bustaz):
firedragons: 6 attacks, 4 hits, 4/3 wounds, 4/9 go through so 0,4 dead SM
bustaz: 17 attacks, 34/3 hits, 17/6 wounds, 17/18 go through so 0.9 dead marines

SemperMortis wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
I said it on the other ork thread, but people are discounting opentopped a lot. Remember those fire dragons give up a turn of shooting to move in their transport. They used to fly up, hop out, and unload, now they fly up, wait, people move away, then they unload, move and shoot. Whereas the tankbustas can ride around firing rokkits out of the Trukk all the while.

So you could run Trukks at 190 and drive around firing 7 Rokkits out every turn without disembarking. For 210 you can throw 2 bomb squigs in for more damage. Seems ok to me.

right until the Trukk dies and the Tankbustas all die to small arms fire because they only have 6+ armor and T4.

And that doesn't happen to waveserpents and T3 Firedragons? Except if the firedragons have been embarked they did nothing at all, so they are forced to get out and be shot without me needing to destroy the transport at all.

c'mon you dont really want to compare taking down a trukk to taking down a waveserpent?

all this gak doesnt help at all. 10 bustaz in a trukk or 5 dragons in a serpent. one may be slightly more effective than the other idk, i havent played 8th yet.
look at the price jump for similar units and take that into account.
i still believe the eldar combo will be more effective especially because the serpent alone can dish out alot of firepower and take alot more punishment than a trukk... but i could be wrong here.

nevertheless take a look at this:

7th edition 10 tankbustaz w/nob and 2squigs in trukk w/ram 185p
8th -> 272p -> 32% increase

7th edition 5 firedragons in serpent w/cannon 240p
8th -> 261p -> 8% increase

7th 5 kabalite trueborns w/dracon 4 blasters and venom w/2 cannons 190p
8th 210p -> 10% increase

7th 5 havocs w/ 4melta and rhino w/dblade 155p
8th 205p -> 24% increase
or
7th 5 chosen w/ 4melta and rhino w/dblade 170p
8th 220p -> 23% increase

and tell me i dont have to worry that orks will be screwed all over again in 8th like they were in 6th and 7th.


oh and did you guys notice???
painboys all have powerclaws now. so that 6+ fnp bubble will cost 65 points... i guess everyone will run with grotsnik now, he clocks in with 74points and has better rules and better stats.

RedNoak wrote:
c'mon you dont really want to compare taking down a trukk to taking down a waveserpent?

all this gak doesnt help at all. 10 bustaz in a trukk or 5 dragons in a serpent. one may be slightly more effective than the other idk, i havent played 8th yet.
look at the price jump for similar units and take that into account.
i still believe the eldar combo will be more effective especially because the serpent alone can dish out alot of firepower and take alot more punishment than a trukk... but i could be wrong here.

nevertheless take a look at this:

7th edition 10 tankbustaz w/nob and 2squigs in trukk w/ram 185p
8th -> 272p -> 32% increase

7th edition 5 firedragons in serpent w/cannon 240p
8th -> 261p -> 8% increase

7th 5 kabalite trueborns w/dracon 4 blasters and venom w/2 cannons 190p
8th 210p -> 10% increase

7th 5 havocs w/ 4melta and rhino w/dblade 155p
8th 205p -> 24% increase
or
7th 5 chosen w/ 4melta and rhino w/dblade 170p
8th 220p -> 23% increase

and tell me i dont have to worry that orks will be screwed all over again in 8th like they were in 6th and 7th.


oh and did you guys notice???
painboys all have powerclaws now. so that 6+ fnp bubble will cost 65 points... i guess everyone will run with grotsnik now, he clocks in with 74points and has better rules and better stats.

With the exception of the True born, all of those units have taken a hit to their effectiveness in 8th. Orks also got buffed with +1S in this edition so per model they are a bit better by comparison to say Trueborn. Splinter cannons got nerfed in that example as well, and went up in cost. Always shooting 12 shots at 36" is way better than needing to be at 18" to shoot 12 shots.

True, but Orks also lost the combat bonus for assaulting +1 strength and +1 attacks. This isn't a huge deal for them and everyone got hit with it. but realistically orks used it more then SM or Eldar or most other armies besides nids and Khorne.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Those orks also lost their cover bonus against most weapons.

In ruins 4+ just became 5+.

For SMs and other 3+ save armies those 4+ ruins just gave them a 2+.

The point largely is that comparing them directly to something like Fire Dragons, even if they have the same role, is extremely hard. While true that Tankbustas were never a close match for Fire Dragons pre-update, post update changed up so many things that it's even harder now to gauge them and determine who had been nerfed, buffed, or just rebalanced to match the new system. If going by old conventions then yes, it looks like Tankbustas got a nerf. But since open-topped is no longer a universal thing for a lot of vehicles, simply having that might be a huge boon to the Trukk. Similarly, 3+ armor was huge back in 7th edition and before because unless it was outright ignored, it was almost always a guaranteed save. Now it's a lot less certain since weapons will quite frequently shave it down to a 4+, 5+ or even 6+ if there's no cover around. Range might also be an issue now that there is a variable movement rate, and a lot of units can clear 12" in a single turn but not 24", which might make pure range a bigger factor too.

Like docdoom77 said, we need to wait until these get released and the community get their hands on it before we can truly determine if they're broken or not.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
The point largely is that comparing them directly to something like Fire Dragons, even if they have the same role, is extremely hard. While true that Tankbustas were never a close match for Fire Dragons pre-update, post update changed up so many things that it's even harder now to gauge them and determine who had been nerfed, buffed, or just rebalanced to match the new system. If going by old conventions then yes, it looks like Tankbustas got a nerf. But since open-topped is no longer a universal thing for a lot of vehicles, simply having that might be a huge boon to the Trukk. Similarly, 3+ armor was huge back in 7th edition and before because unless it was outright ignored, it was almost always a guaranteed save. Now it's a lot less certain since weapons will quite frequently shave it down to a 4+, 5+ or even 6+ if there's no cover around. Range might also be an issue now that there is a variable movement rate, and a lot of units can clear 12" in a single turn but not 24", which might make pure range a bigger factor too.

Like docdoom77 said, we need to wait until these get released and the community get their hands on it before we can truly determine if they're broken or not.

My only comment is about your armor comment. Shaving it down to 4+ or 5+

The AP- thing starts at AP4 from 7th, im getting that from my orky weapons and such. My Skorcha used to be AP4 now its -1.

So IN reality your losing out against AP4 weapons because it hurts your save by 25% 3+ = 4+ . However, against -2 its a huge improvement because before that you didnt even get a save so its a 33.33% increase and against -3 (previously AP2 weapons) you gain 16.6% Saves so overall its a huge buff for 3+ armor. For Orks though...not as much. yeah we get our 6+ against AP 0 which is nice (16.6% save) but it doesn't help us at all past that. So in reality this new armor/AP system is a huge benefit for armies with good saves and about 1/3rd as good for low save armies like orks. Add in the cover rules which effectively give 3+ armor a 2+ save or a 5+ save against AP2 weapons.......Space Marines and other good armor armies just made out like bandits.. Orks again...not as much.

SemperMortis wrote:
True, but Orks also lost the combat bonus for assaulting +1 strength and +1 attacks. This isn't a huge deal for them and everyone got hit with it. but realistically orks used it more then SM or Eldar or most other armies besides nids and Khorne.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Those orks also lost their cover bonus against most weapons.

In ruins 4+ just became 5+.

For SMs and other 3+ save armies those 4+ ruins just gave them a 2+.

Wrong, orks gained +1 S all the time, and hitting on a 3+ negates the +1 attack loss, beyond which given their high base attacks they rely on that +1 far less than many other armies. Marines are half as effective without that, orks are only 25% worse, which they make up by hitting more often.

They did lose some cover bonuses but a lot ignored that last edition anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
The point largely is that comparing them directly to something like Fire Dragons, even if they have the same role, is extremely hard. While true that Tankbustas were never a close match for Fire Dragons pre-update, post update changed up so many things that it's even harder now to gauge them and determine who had been nerfed, buffed, or just rebalanced to match the new system. If going by old conventions then yes, it looks like Tankbustas got a nerf. But since open-topped is no longer a universal thing for a lot of vehicles, simply having that might be a huge boon to the Trukk. Similarly, 3+ armor was huge back in 7th edition and before because unless it was outright ignored, it was almost always a guaranteed save. Now it's a lot less certain since weapons will quite frequently shave it down to a 4+, 5+ or even 6+ if there's no cover around. Range might also be an issue now that there is a variable movement rate, and a lot of units can clear 12" in a single turn but not 24", which might make pure range a bigger factor too.

Like docdoom77 said, we need to wait until these get released and the community get their hands on it before we can truly determine if they're broken or not.

My only comment is about your armor comment. Shaving it down to 4+ or 5+

The AP- thing starts at AP4 from 7th, im getting that from my orky weapons and such. My Skorcha used to be AP4 now its -1.

So IN reality your losing out against AP4 weapons because it hurts your save by 25% 3+ = 4+ . However, against -2 its a huge improvement because before that you didnt even get a save so its a 33.33% increase and against -3 (previously AP2 weapons) you gain 16.6% Saves so overall its a huge buff for 3+ armor. For Orks though...not as much. yeah we get our 6+ against AP 0 which is nice (16.6% save) but it doesn't help us at all past that. So in reality this new armor/AP system is a huge benefit for armies with good saves and about 1/3rd as good for low save armies like orks. Add in the cover rules which effectively give 3+ armor a 2+ save or a 5+ save against AP2 weapons.......Space Marines and other good armor armies just made out like bandits.. Orks again...not as much.

On the other hand almost everything ignored that 6+ before and less does now, AP5 and 6 no longer really exists. As for marines, it seems to me that a lot of CC weapons gained -1 so that hurts them.

SemperMortis wrote:
My only comment is about your armor comment. Shaving it down to 4+ or 5+

The AP- thing starts at AP4 from 7th, im getting that from my orky weapons and such. My Skorcha used to be AP4 now its -1.

So IN reality your losing out against AP4 weapons because it hurts your save by 25% 3+ = 4+ . However, against -2 its a huge improvement because before that you didnt even get a save so its a 33.33% increase and against -3 (previously AP2 weapons) you gain 16.6% Saves so overall its a huge buff for 3+ armor. For Orks though...not as much. yeah we get our 6+ against AP 0 which is nice (16.6% save) but it doesn't help us at all past that. So in reality this new armor/AP system is a huge benefit for armies with good saves and about 1/3rd as good for low save armies like orks. Add in the cover rules which effectively give 3+ armor a 2+ save or a 5+ save against AP2 weapons.......Space Marines and other good armor armies just made out like bandits.. Orks again...not as much.

That is assuming all guns scaled linearly like you've suggested, which is not the case since we've already seen some guns get changed around. Again you're comparing them in a total vacuum. In 7th edition stuff like invisibility, cover and invulnerable saves were used to mitigate or ignore all of that, and many of those sources are either nerfed or removed outright. We've also seen guns and their wielders decrease in cost (and hence increase in numbers), some guns completely changed around (combi-weapons being a big one, with TL weapons being second) and so forth. So while in a 1v1 comparison a Space Marine staring down at an Inferno Bolter has gotten an increase compared to an Ork staring down the same thing, the meta of the game has changed where both armies will be facing them with a lot more frequency than before, with a lot less protection. With Orks, it's business as usual as facing a mass of AP3 weapons was essentially the same as facing a mass of AP5 weapons in 7th edition. Marines....not so much.

Like I keep saying, trying to gauge things by the standards we are used to in 7th edition is faulty, since 8th is shaping up to completely change how we approach army building and in-game tactics.

of course mecha, I'm making all these predictions based on the limited information we have at hand so far. But from what I can see, orks are going to be dying in droves compared to last edition where they were dying to fast to begin with.

Getting saves against AP5 and 6 weapons is nice like I said, but it doesn't help all that much. So now where we were losing 6 models to bolter fire we are losing 5. Compare that to Space Marines who were losing 6 models to AP4 (-1AP) before now they are going to be losing 3. So like I said, the change to AP and Armor benefits armored foes more then lightly armored foes. The change to cover is completely one sided in that regard as well. Nids and Orks are going to be suffering for yet another edition is my guess.

SemperMortis wrote:
of course mecha, I'm making all these predictions based on the limited information we have at hand so far. But from what I can see, orks are going to be dying in droves compared to last edition where they were dying to fast to begin with.

Getting saves against AP5 and 6 weapons is nice like I said, but it doesn't help all that much. So now where we were losing 6 models to bolter fire we are losing 5. Compare that to Space Marines who were losing 6 models to AP4 (-1AP) before now they are going to be losing 3. So like I said, the change to AP and Armor benefits armored foes more then lightly armored foes. The change to cover is completely one sided in that regard as well. Nids and Orks are going to be suffering for yet another edition is my guess.

You are going to have to do the math here for us, cause it makes no sense, no reference to how many models to begin with, how many wounds, etc. Let's just use 10 as a number of models and wounds.

Before SM had 3+ save, so AP4 meant they got to save, 2/3 will survive, so that would be lose 4 without cover, 2 with cover.
Now SM have 3+ save AP-1 means they get to save, 1/2 will survive, so they lose 5 without cover, 4 with cover.

AP4 and AP-1 are not comparable...

I'm excited to see what's in the Forgeworld Index for Orks.
There's a few things that no longer have models that I'm really hoping they include:
Looted Wagon: never had a model, but we've had them forever.
Mekboy Junka: these had a lot of interesting options, and with the Deff Rolla being good loading one up with Skorchas sounds amazing.
Cyborks: Lots of potential for fun conversions, even though I don't think the Cybork Body will necessarily be worth it. I'd also like to see the option to upgrade regular Boyz to cyborks like in the Dread Mob.
Battle Fortress: There were a bunch of different variants. I have a Deff Rolla version. I guess I can always count it as a Wagon, but that's lame.
Kill Krusha: Since the other Kill Tanks have a model I'm guessing this one will too.
Gun Wagons: They weren't very impressive before, but with the new rules they might be tough little mobile fortresses for some of our shooty units.

Of course I'm excited to see the rules for a bunch of their stuff that still have models as well.


Minor gripe (very minor): I really like the Flash Gitz kit. It's cool that they played up the pirate look, as Flash Gitz often become Freebootas, so that's pretty fluffy. From what I've read Freebootas often put Clan affiliations behind them, so I guess it's fluffy that a bunch of pirate looking orks would not have a Clan keyword. However, Flash Gitz are also supposed to frequently be Bad Moons, and are sort of a "signature" unit for the Bad Moons like Squiggoths are for Snakebites and Lootas are for Death Skulls. (That's not to say that other clans never use these units, or that the aforementioned clans don't have other units associated with them.)

It kind of makes me sad that there doesn't appear to be a way to distinguish between Bad Moon Flash Gitz and Freebooter Flash Gitz. Again, this is just a very minor gripe and it doesn't really matter as the Clan keywords have very little effect in the game currently. I'm hoping they come out with more flavorful rules for the orks down the road that make more use of the Clan keywords.

C'mon U don't need math to understand the new cover system favorable heavily armoured units more then lightly armoured ones...

In 7th SM for example only benefitted from cover if the weapon was ap3 or lower.
Now they benefit either way. If the ap is high they still get a +1 bonus if the ap is low they still get the +1 bonus.
In 7th armies like orks or bids benefitted alot from cover.going from no save at all to to 5+/4+
Now they'll get the same treatment as Sm's a flat +1

It maybe more fairly now. But light armoured troops lost an advantage.

RedNoak wrote:
C'mon U don't need math to understand the new cover system favorable heavily armoured units more then lightly armoured ones...

In 7th SM for example only benefitted from cover if the weapon was ap3 or lower.
Now they benefit either way. If the ap is high they still get a +1 bonus if the ap is low they still get the +1 bonus.
In 7th armies like orks or bids benefitted alot from cover.going from no save at all to to 5+/4+
Now they'll get the same treatment as Sm's a flat +1

It maybe more fairly now. But light armoured troops lost an advantage.

You want to think about that a tad, lightly armoured troops had an advantage over heavily armoured troops... Don't see anything wrong with that? Why should the same bush provide to different levels of protection?

Here's a thought, maybe heavier armour should work better than lighter armour, always. It shouldn't be oh, I shoot a tank with a rifle, it bounces, I shoot a man with a vest with a rifle, it kills, I shoot a man with a rifle in a bush, it bounces...

Would rather see cover be a -modifier to hit than to armour save, but can understand why they did it that way.

RedNoak wrote:
C'mon U don't need math to understand the new cover system favorable heavily armoured units more then lightly armoured ones...

You mean to tell me that the units that have a points cost applied to them for their better save end up getting better use of the games save mechanic!?

Pedroig wrote:


You want to think about that a tad, lightly armoured troops had an advantage over heavily armoured troops... Don't see anything wrong with that? Why should the same bush provide to different levels of protection?

Here's a thought, maybe heavier armour should work better than lighter armour, always. It shouldn't be oh, I shoot a tank with a rifle, it bounces, I shoot a man with a vest with a rifle, it kills, I shoot a man with a rifle in a bush, it bounces...

Would rather see cover be a -modifier to hit than to armour save, but can understand why they did it that way.

That would be fine Pedroig if they fixed the points cost for those units. Boyz just became LESS durable and stayed the same in cost. SM Just became MORE durable and dropped in price.

Low armor unit relied on cover to survive for any length of time, SM relied on cover to save them from AP1-3. Now Low armor units are just fethed all around and SMs are even more durable.

So yeah this fething sucks for Orkz and Nidz and other low save armies.

SemperMortis wrote:


So yeah this fething sucks for Orkz and Nidz and other low save armies.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/4770/643980.page#9406227

Both Frankie and Reece put Orks in their Top 5 single factions.

You're way too glum about this man, give it some time, or at least be open to SOME of the things people are telling you.