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Both Frankie and Reece put Orks in their Top 5 single factions.
You're way too glum about this man, give it some time, or at least be open to SOME of the things people are telling you.
no, simply put no. Every release has factions drooling to try out new combos and to use their new power house units or buffed units that are now amazing. Since 4th we have had...none of this. For us, getting a 3rd wound on a Meganob is considered amazing. Our most OP unit last edition was probably the Mek Gunz which was really only OP because of its price and Artillery rules giving us a T7 model with 3+ saves.
I really tried to stay open minded for 7th edition, I even bought a Morkanaut, but no GW screwed us over again. Then we got the Red Waaagh Supplement or whatever the hell it was, that sucked, then we got Waaaagh Ghaz which sucked as well, then we got the new Flyer which sucked some more and then finally we got Waaagh Ghaz V.2.0 which guess what? sucked again. We had probably the 2nd most releases in 7th and our power level never rose above basement level.
8th looked really promising with some new rules and mechanics. As soon as they started to release those new rules though.....feth. Almost across the board our units got worse.
You're trying to measure the current situation against a game that no longer exists man, you had better be ready to eat crow and buy me my beer when I finally have videos to proove I'm right.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/04 03:06:03
The fluff is like ketchup and mustard on a burger. Yes it's desirable, yes it makes things better, but no it doesn't fundamentally change what you're eating and no you shouldn't just drown the whole meal in it.
You're trying to measure the current situation against a game that no longer exists man, you had better be ready to eat crow and buy me my beer when I finally have videos to proove I'm right.
yeah because history hasn't proven me right for the last 3 editions....ohh wait.
SemperMorbid, you don't get it, you keep comparing numbers which are not relevant. What kind of Ork uses cover? Why is that Ork not in melee? What do you do, paint your Orks pink, or do you paint them yellow, cause they want to hide in cover?
Two baseline units, Tactical Squad and Boyz, the Beakers will be better shooting, the Boyz better in Melee. Not some of the time, not if there is or isn't cover, not in a certain situation, but any time there isn't a major difference in numbers. Even if the Beakers charge the Boyz, the Boyz will win the combat, with the same crap saves they've had since 1998.
Melee got better, heck it might even be better than shooting now in terms of efficiency. In the games I've been in, melee starts a domino chain, once an unit gets into melee it is rare for it to spend any following turn out of melee. And that includes "slow" Orks with their 5" move, since they usually end up with 3" consolidation, followed by a 5" move, and d6" advance, and a 2d6" Charge that can be rerolled, that's a 13" average movement with a minimum of 11" and a maximum of 26" from where the unit started its previous charge phase. (I have yet to get the max, but did get a 20" potential move by foot slogging Boyz to make an initial charge, didn't get to use it as was only 7" from the target unit after advancing..
Want to know what the best cover is, to be within 1" of enemy models, then you have a 1+ Invulnerable save since they can't shoot at that unit at all...
Peroig you dont seem to get it. YOU HAVE TO GET INTO CC.
But hey, you keep frothing at the mouth that you might have a better edition then 7th even though all the evidence so far is pointing to this being a repeat of the last 3 editions where our under power, over priced units get blown off the table before getting into CC>
Let's compare 10 Marines (130 points) to 16 Boys (128 points).
Spoiler:
Marines shoot once at 24", hit 6.66 times, wound 3.33 times, kill 2.78 Boys.
Boys move up 8.5", putting them 15.5" away. They then fire their Assault 2 (or are they Assault 1?) guns, but only hit on 6s, since they advanced. 2.2 hits, 1.1 wounds, .37 dead Marines.
Marines move up 3.5", putting them 12" away, so they can Rapid Fire. 12.84 hits, 6.42 wounds, 5.35 more dead Boys.
Boys move up 5", (7" away) do NOT advance (I don't think you can advance and charge), fire their Assault 2 weapons, hitting on 5s. 5.25 hits, 2.62 wounds, .87 dead marines. 1.24 dead Marines total.
Boys then CHARGE! almost making it in more than 90% of the time. Course, Marines overwatch, getting 2.92 hits, 1.46 wounds, and 1.22 dead Boys.
Close Combat! There are 8.76 Marines left, and 6.65 Boys left. Each Boy will get 3 attacks, hitting on 3s, for 2 hits per Boy, or 13.3 hits, 6.65 wounds, 2.22 dead Marines.
I'll spell this out again since you apparently missed it. The new Armor system doesn't benefit the Orks half as much as it benefits Marines.
The new cover system which used to give ork boyz 4+ cover is now giving Space Marines 2+ Saves and Ork Boyz 5+ saves. A HUGE boost for Marines and a 50% nerf for Boyz.
The new TL rules slightly benefit orks *Based on 3 shot TL weapons* (before it was 1.66 hits compared to the new TL that gives 2 hits) and greatly benefits SM and similar armies (2 hits went to 4 hits) So orks gain .34 hits Marines and equivalent armies gained 2.0
Ork FNP went from 5+++ to 6+++ and our 5++ KFF save is now a bubble and the entire unit has to be inside to get that bonus.
Overall we were handed a lot of nerfs from the main rule book and all our units went up in price dramatically.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/04 04:45:06
Let's compare 10 Marines (130 points) to 16 Boys (128 points).
Spoiler:
Marines shoot once at 24", hit 6.66 times, wound 3.33 times, kill 2.78 Boys.
Boys move up 8.5", putting them 15.5" away. They then fire their Assault 2 (or are they Assault 1?) guns, but only hit on 6s, since they advanced. 2.2 hits, 1.1 wounds, .37 dead Marines.
Marines move up 3.5", putting them 12" away, so they can Rapid Fire. 12.84 hits, 6.42 wounds, 5.35 more dead Boys.
Boys move up 5", (7" away) do NOT advance (I don't think you can advance and charge), fire their Assault 2 weapons, hitting on 5s. 5.25 hits, 2.62 wounds, .87 dead marines. 1.24 dead Marines total.
Boys then CHARGE! almost making it in more than 90% of the time. Course, Marines overwatch, getting 2.92 hits, 1.46 wounds, and 1.22 dead Boys.
Close Combat! There are 8.76 Marines left, and 6.65 Boys left. Each Boy will get 3 attacks, hitting on 3s, for 2 hits per Boy, or 13.3 hits, 6.65 wounds, 2.22 dead Marines.
End of CC round one. 6.54 Marines are left standing, as compared to 4.83 Boys.
Round two, let's assume the Boys swing first again. You know, the Marine player has given up on these Tacticals.
9.66 hits from the Boys, 4.83 wounds, 1.61 dead Marines.
4.93 Marines swing back, getting 3.29 hits, 1.64 wounds, and 1.37 dead Boys.
End of round two, 4.93 Marines are left standing, 3.46 Boys.
Round three, same deal.
6.92 hits from the Boys, 3.46 wounds, 1.15 dead Marines.
3.78 Marines swing, 2.52 hits, 1.26 wound, 1.05 dead Boys.
End of round three, 3.78 Marines are left, 2.41 Boys.
Round four (this combat drags on), same deal.
4.82 hits from the Boys, 2.41 wounds, .8 dead Marines.
2.98 Marines swing, 1.99 hits, .99 wound, .83 dead Boys.
End of round four. 2,98 Marines are left, 1.58 Boys.
Round five, same deal.
3.16 hits, 1.58 wounds, .53 dead Marines.
2.45 Marines swing for 1.63 hits, .82 wounds, .68 dead Boys.
End of round five, 2.45 Marines left, .9 Boys.
Round six, same deal.
1.8 hits, .9 wounds, .3 dead Marines.
1.55 Marines swing for 1.03 hits, .52 wounds, and .43 dead Boys.
End of round six, 1.55 Marines, .47 Boys.
Round seven (sweet lord, this is long), same deal.
.94 hits, .47 wounds, .16 dead Marines.
1.39 Marines swing for .93 hits, .46 wounds, and .39 dead Boys.
End of round seven, 1.39 Marines are standing, .08 Boys.
ROUND EIGHT! THE LAST ROUND! (I hope.) Same deal.
.16 hits, ,08 wounds, .03 dead Marines.
1.36 Marines swing, getting .91 hits, .45 wounds, and .38 dead Boys.
There are now 1.36 Marines standing, as compared to -.3 Boys.
Eight rounds of combat later, Marines win.
Tell me again why Boys are so good?
Edit: By the way, I assume the Ork Boys ALWAYS STRIKE FIRST. No guarantee that happens in a real game.
6 points, so 130 points would be 22 boyz? As well as that would be over 20, meaning they all get +1 attacks.
I think the only line I would need to change in your example is
"Close Combat! There are 8.76 Marines left, and 6.65 Boys left. Each Boy will get 3 attacks, hitting on 3s, for 2 hits per Boy, or 13.3 hits, 6.65 wounds, 2.22 dead Marines."
I just need to add 8 boyz and +1 attacks for each of them... 56 attacks, * 2/3 hit chance * 1/2 wound chance * 1/3 marine save chance = 56 * 2/3 * 1/2 * 1/3 = 6.22 dead marines
In my experience (Granted it has been limited), but there hasn't been a game I've played or watched in person in which there wasn't CC by turn 2. You seem to think it is hard to get into CC, it isn't, Orks footsloggers have a minimum 8" move to get into CC, Stormboyz, Wartrackks, Skorchas have a minimum of 14", Warbikes and WarBuggies have a minimum of 16" and DeffKoptas, they have a minimum of 22" to get into CC, and it is a beast, you move, advance, fly over your "target unit" by at least 2", drop Bigbomm on that unit, charge that unit, and then d3x2 Str 5 attacks on the survivors. That's per Kopta...
Have you played a single game yet with the 8e rules? Or are you too busy B'ing & M'ing to play?
You don't seem to understand that Orks are closer to 2e than they have been in over a decade, mainly cause Melee is at least equal to Shooting now. When was the last time you "had" to roll 100+ dice in melee for one unit? For me it was about 2 hours ago... Wiped out Assault Terminators with it, guess the SM folks will B&M about how bad Termies still are now...
SemperMortis wrote: You wouldn't add that +1 attack because they would be below 20 before they got into CC but basically correct.
The rule doesn't say "while you have 20 boyz"
It says if you include 20 boyz. So unless they FAQ it your way, I'm going to assume just bringing 20 changes the unit forever.
No it says If this unit includes 20 or more models... Includes = has, it does say if you include, included, or starts with, it uses the present tense of includes, which means compromises, or has.
Warboss within 6" and Boyz can Advance and charge same turn, this is something you will want to make sure happens.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/04 05:15:05
Just noticed that the Warbuggy/Trakk/Skorcha don't explode.
This probably won't happen, but it would kind of make me happy if all ork vehicles had both ramshackle and an increased chance of exploding, especially the Skorcha.
SemperMortis wrote: You wouldn't add that +1 attack because they would be below 20 before they got into CC but basically correct.
The rule doesn't say "while you have 20 boyz"
It says if you include 20 boyz. So unless they FAQ it your way, I'm going to assume just bringing 20 changes the unit forever.
No it says If this unit includes 20 or more models... Includes = has, it does say if you include, included, or starts with, it uses the present tense of includes, which means compromises, or has.
Warboss within 6" and Boyz can Advance and charge same turn, this is something you will want to make sure happens.
I like how you said "No it says" then repeat my words.
If the unit includes 20 models you add 1 to the characteristic. PERIOD.
It doesn't say "you add 1 to the characteristic until the unit goes under 20 models." Stop adding your own personal rules or words to the game.
Again, unless a FAQ proves otherwise...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/04 08:17:04
I am the first who will love that the ork unit remain the extra attack even if drops from 20... I don't think it works that way hahaha.
True that sadly usually never they will arrive to combat being more than 20 so never will get that extra attack. But I think that the intention of the rule is clear: give the extra attack if there are 20+ orks.
At least by the moment I think that hahaha. Maybe I am wrong
Kommandos can set up at the end of your movement phase *over* 9" away from any enemy model.
They can charge this turn. They need to get within 1", so they need a 9+. They can reroll their charge roll.
Overwatch doesn't remove models from the front. No movement modifiers for cover.
9+ on 2D6 = 27.8%
9+ on 2D6 with reroll = 47.9%
At 9pt per kommando with free nob, I'd try a coin flip for an infiltration charge.
Let's compare 10 Marines (130 points) to 16 Boys (128 points).
Spoiler:
Marines shoot once at 24", hit 6.66 times, wound 3.33 times, kill 2.78 Boys.
Boys move up 8.5", putting them 15.5" away. They then fire their Assault 2 (or are they Assault 1?) guns, but only hit on 6s, since they advanced. 2.2 hits, 1.1 wounds, .37 dead Marines.
Marines move up 3.5", putting them 12" away, so they can Rapid Fire. 12.84 hits, 6.42 wounds, 5.35 more dead Boys.
Boys move up 5", (7" away) do NOT advance (I don't think you can advance and charge), fire their Assault 2 weapons, hitting on 5s. 5.25 hits, 2.62 wounds, .87 dead marines. 1.24 dead Marines total.
Boys then CHARGE! almost making it in more than 90% of the time. Course, Marines overwatch, getting 2.92 hits, 1.46 wounds, and 1.22 dead Boys.
Close Combat! There are 8.76 Marines left, and 6.65 Boys left. Each Boy will get 3 attacks, hitting on 3s, for 2 hits per Boy, or 13.3 hits, 6.65 wounds, 2.22 dead Marines.
End of CC round one. 6.54 Marines are left standing, as compared to 4.83 Boys.
Round two, let's assume the Boys swing first again. You know, the Marine player has given up on these Tacticals.
9.66 hits from the Boys, 4.83 wounds, 1.61 dead Marines.
4.93 Marines swing back, getting 3.29 hits, 1.64 wounds, and 1.37 dead Boys.
End of round two, 4.93 Marines are left standing, 3.46 Boys.
Round three, same deal.
6.92 hits from the Boys, 3.46 wounds, 1.15 dead Marines.
3.78 Marines swing, 2.52 hits, 1.26 wound, 1.05 dead Boys.
End of round three, 3.78 Marines are left, 2.41 Boys.
Round four (this combat drags on), same deal.
4.82 hits from the Boys, 2.41 wounds, .8 dead Marines.
2.98 Marines swing, 1.99 hits, .99 wound, .83 dead Boys.
End of round four. 2,98 Marines are left, 1.58 Boys.
Round five, same deal.
3.16 hits, 1.58 wounds, .53 dead Marines.
2.45 Marines swing for 1.63 hits, .82 wounds, .68 dead Boys.
End of round five, 2.45 Marines left, .9 Boys.
Round six, same deal.
1.8 hits, .9 wounds, .3 dead Marines.
1.55 Marines swing for 1.03 hits, .52 wounds, and .43 dead Boys.
End of round six, 1.55 Marines, .47 Boys.
Round seven (sweet lord, this is long), same deal.
.94 hits, .47 wounds, .16 dead Marines.
1.39 Marines swing for .93 hits, .46 wounds, and .39 dead Boys.
End of round seven, 1.39 Marines are standing, .08 Boys.
ROUND EIGHT! THE LAST ROUND! (I hope.) Same deal.
.16 hits, ,08 wounds, .03 dead Marines.
1.36 Marines swing, getting .91 hits, .45 wounds, and .38 dead Boys.
There are now 1.36 Marines standing, as compared to -.3 Boys.
Eight rounds of combat later, Marines win.
Tell me again why Boys are so good?
Edit: By the way, I assume the Ork Boys ALWAYS STRIKE FIRST. No guarantee that happens in a real game.
Did you factor in the shooting phase? I'm sure that would tip it in the marines favor, firing pistols in cc is more effective for the marines the orks after all.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/04 10:40:14
I could see the ruling going either way, dependent on GW's FAQ - that said, as it currently stands, I think Talamere has it right. Including 20+ Boyz in a unit grants them all +1A. That would give you a reason to take a horde army, even if they might not all make it to melee.
Also, I really hope this doom and gloom regarding Ork balance ends up panning out to be just 8th edition inexperience; I love Orkz, and would also love to see them be a solid army this edition around - something I can invest into knowing I'm buying more than just the fluff this time around.
That said, at the end of the day, Orkz is the best army regardless of the rules; they'z never beaten in battle.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/04 10:42:56
Did you factor in the shooting phase? I'm sure that would tip it in the marines favor, firing pistols in cc is more effective for the marines the orks after all.
His math is a mess, don't consider it. Just from the get go is wrong as he says boyz are 8ppm when they are 6ppm, effectively making this match up be 10 marines vs 21 boyz. It's not even funny because he treats shootas as assault 1 instead of assault 2 (which is their actual stats) and instead of actually double checking/proof reading he goes and keeps on with the model!
For my OCD's sake, here's a simulation using some of his principles and the actual math.
They begin 24 inches away.
M=> 6.666666 hits. 3.3333333 wounds. 2.7777777 dead boyz. So 18 remain after rounding up.
Orks => Boys move up 8.5", putting them 15.5" away. They do 36 shots. They do Six hits and three wounds, effectively killing a marine.
M=> Move up to rapid fire range. 18 shots. 12 hits. 6 wounds. 5 boyz dead. No battleshock yet.
Orks=> Boyz move up 5'', 8.66666 hits. 4.3333333 wounds and 1.44444 dead marines. Two and a half dead marines by now.
Now they charge. 90% chance that they make it. Over watch results in 1 dead ork. Twelve remain.
Orks=> Boyz do 24 attacks, 16 hits, 8 wounds. 2.6666666 marines. Half of the marine squad's been wiped out by now.
Marines fight back=> five attacks. 3.333333333 hits. 1.666666 wounds. 1.4 dead boyz. 10.6 remain.
Marine turn.
Marines shoot=> 1.4 dead boyz. 9.2 orkz remain.
Marines fight back=> 1.4 dead boyz. 7.8 orkz remain. For simplicity's sake and to compensate the first rounding down, it's 8 boyz remaining.
Boyz activate: 16 attacks, 10.6666 hits. 5.33333333 wounds and 1.777777777 dead marines. 3.3333333333 remain.
Now it's the ork turn.
Boyz activate: 16 attacks, 10.66666 hits. 5.33333333 wounds and 1.77777777 dead marines 1.55555555555remain.
Bolt pistols and CQC attacks combined make 3.1 attacks, which turn into 2.07 hits. 1.035 wounds and 0.864 dead boyz.
Orks activate and have now 6.7x2 attacks. 8.9 hits. 4.45 wounds. and 1 dead marine.
Next ork turn the remainder is dead.
Orks have lost 14.3 boyz at a total of 85.8 points of casualties. Marines have lost 130 points and ten guys. Orks stomp the fight if they get the 90% chance of happening charge.
Please JNAproductions, don't half-ass things like this when making your arguments.
I second that (Ninja'd). I only did maths for the first half of the fight but this shows how much the additional boyz swing it:
Spoiler:
= 10 marines, 21 boyz
Marines shoot once at 24", hit 6.66 times, wound 3.33 times, kill 2.78 Boys.
= 10 marines , 18.22 boyz
Boys move up 8.5", putting them 15.5" away. They then fire their Assault 2 guns, but only hit on 6s, since they advanced. 6.08 hits, 3.04 wounds, 1.014 dead Marines.
= 8.986 marines, 18.22 boyz
Marines move up 3.5", putting them 12" away, so they can Rapid Fire. 11.98 hits, 5.99 wounds, 4.99 more dead Boys.
= 8.986 marines, 13.23 boyz
Boys move up 5", (7" away) do NOT advance (They can only advance and charge when within 6" of a warboss), fire their Assault 2 weapons, hitting on 5s. 8.81 hits, 4.41 wounds, 1.46 dead marines.
= 7.51 marines, 13.23 boyz
Boys then CHARGE! almost making it ~92% of the time. Marines overwatch, getting 2.51 hits, 1.26 wounds, and 1.04 dead Boys.
= 7.51 marines, 12.19 boyz
Close Combat! Boy will get 3 attacks, hitting on 3s, for 2 hits per Boy, or 24.39 hits, 12.20 wounds, 4.07 dead Marines.
After first round of CC:
= 3.44 marines, 10.81 boyz
(Note, With previous calculations: End of CC round one. 6.54 Marines are left standing, as compared to 4.83 Boys.)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/04 11:31:32
yup, and this has been true since at least 4th edition Ork boyz in a vacuum will always win.
Or conversely if you have those Marines use their movement to fall back instead of advancing you have the Marines always win, especially now where Orks are slower then SM and you have to factor in that getting 10 Marines with Range 24 guns into range is easier then getting 20 boyz with range 18 guns.
And yet it has not been a problem. In reality, not in pessimism land where you reside, it has not been a problem getting20+ Boyz into CC by turn 2. You have to try real hard not to get a Kopta into CC by turn 2.
They can't fall back if they are surrounded, they also can't shoot or charge unless they have Fly if they fall back.
SemperMortis wrote: especially now where Orks are slower then SM and you have to factor in that getting 10 Marines with Range 24 guns into range is easier then getting 20 boyz with range 18 guns.
move 5 vs 6.... but allowed to run and shoot their weapons, able to charge after running, rerolling charge distances that aren't high enough, access to a spell that can teleport them anywhere on the table provided you adhere to some distance, 2 pont jump packs on the basic troop profile... You were wrong before, and now that games are starting to come out you're just clinging to really silly tidbits of information.
Orks are not slower than space marines, they just move in different ways.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/04 13:02:18
The fluff is like ketchup and mustard on a burger. Yes it's desirable, yes it makes things better, but no it doesn't fundamentally change what you're eating and no you shouldn't just drown the whole meal in it.
Have the FLG guys taken advantage of the faction keywords during any of the games they've discussed? Are those rankings based on fighting single faction against single faction? I only ask because imperial armies can sacrifice some synergy to take the best tools from a dozen different armies. For example, every imperium army can take wyverns in heavy support and each wyvern can shoot at a different unit and easily make it combat ineffective. They also still have access to all flamer units that do d6 hits a flamer, which doesn't sound like something any unit would like getting hit by.
Having spent a lot of time reading through the indexes there are plenty of solutions to orks. I know all of that is in a vacuum but I just don't see how they are doing competitive play testing and orks are at the top. All of the close combat units that were better than us are still better than us and often just as fast or faster. All of the shooting armies that could vaporize an ork army can still do so.
All that being said, I really hope the initial impressions of the people playing it are correct. My boys will have the global campaign to prove themselves viable. Until it ends I'm going to try to not become overly pessimistic.
RedNoak wrote: C'mon U don't need math to understand the new cover system favorable heavily armoured units more then lightly armoured ones...
In 7th SM for example only benefitted from cover if the weapon was ap3 or lower.
Now they benefit either way. If the ap is high they still get a +1 bonus if the ap is low they still get the +1 bonus.
In 7th armies like orks or bids benefitted alot from cover.going from no save at all to to 5+/4+
Now they'll get the same treatment as Sm's a flat +1
It maybe more fairly now. But light armoured troops lost an advantage.
You want to think about that a tad, lightly armoured troops had an advantage over heavily armoured troops... Don't see anything wrong with that? Why should the same bush provide to different levels of protection?
Here's a thought, maybe heavier armour should work better than lighter armour, always. It shouldn't be oh, I shoot a tank with a rifle, it bounces, I shoot a man with a vest with a rifle, it kills, I shoot a man with a rifle in a bush, it bounces...
Would rather see cover be a -modifier to hit than to armour save, but can understand why they did it that way.
RedNoak wrote: C'mon U don't need math to understand the new cover system favorable heavily armoured units more then lightly armoured ones...
You mean to tell me that the units that have a points cost applied to them for their better save end up getting better use of the games save mechanic!?
i didnt say the cover system is realistic. i said it favors heaviliy armed troops, which you agreed with. it may make more sense... nonetheless its a nerf for lowarmoured troops... and guess what orks are...
also i had a game yesterday... and i gotta say the new cover mechanics sucks. unless i'm mistaken you dont get any cover for beeing obscured... only for beeing inside a terrain feature. maybe not so hard for small units who can dig in and shoot. but big units who want to cross the board? not so much. where before most of the time i would get a 4+ or atleast a 5+ coversave, now it was like 10% of the time i got the cover bonus which has been negated 50% of the time by the ap.
so please. you can tell me how cool the new cover sytem is how easy it plays and how realistic it is. but dont tell me it didnt hit orks hard.
orkychaos wrote: Have the FLG guys taken advantage of the faction keywords during any of the games they've discussed? Are those rankings based on fighting single faction against single faction? I only ask because imperial armies can sacrifice some synergy to take the best tools from a dozen different armies. For example, every imperium army can take wyverns in heavy support and each wyvern can shoot at a different unit and easily make it combat ineffective. They also still have access to all flamer units that do d6 hits a flamer, which doesn't sound like something any unit would like getting hit by.
Having spent a lot of time reading through the indexes there are plenty of solutions to orks. I know all of that is in a vacuum but I just don't see how they are doing competitive play testing and orks are at the top. All of the close combat units that were better than us are still better than us and often just as fast or faster. All of the shooting armies that could vaporize an ork army can still do so.
All that being said, I really hope the initial impressions of the people playing it are correct. My boys will have the global campaign to prove themselves viable. Until it ends I'm going to try to not become overly pessimistic.
yep, I feel like we are going to see a lot of imperium armies topping the tables because of this... People will take a shooting back line from guard, a fast midfield contingent from say sisters, and some backfield assault drop units from blood angels and wreck face across all ranges of the table. Time will tell.
The fluff is like ketchup and mustard on a burger. Yes it's desirable, yes it makes things better, but no it doesn't fundamentally change what you're eating and no you shouldn't just drown the whole meal in it.
I was disappointed with the changes to the SAG myself but in the game I'm currently playing, it has zapped 5 terminators by the end of turn 3. Rolled pretty well tbf but still, it's paid for itself. He's also fixed up one of the Mek Guns he's stationed next to and shrugged off some shooting attacks with his 4+. Gitfinda is still much missed.
I feel like they'll probably add some weirdness back to it in the full codex.
Like everyone keeps saying, you really have to get games in before you can judge anything.
Incidentally, Da Jump has SO much more utility now. I never used it much before but in this current game I'm playing, I've ported 20 hidden boys into charge range, as well as zipping the Lobbas (edit. just realised I broke the law there, oops) and SAG away from imminent Terminator assault carnage, (to a position where they can continue to rain fire on them unchallenged). It's just hugely improved in its reliability.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/04 13:42:24
Having had a look over the various bits and bobs doing the rounds, I quite like how things are looking for the Orks, but I do have a few reservations/gripes. Here we go:
Flash gitz: they aren't always Freebooterz; I run, and have modelled, mine as Bad Moon nobz with big kustom weapons. But no <clan> for them. Booo. And ffs why haven't they got their 4+ back, when regular nobz get it?
No 'ardboyz. I get that they seem to have done away with armour upgrades this edition, but why not just make it a separate unit entry? My boyz in snazzy armour I've built by scrimping together bitz from loads of different kits are sad about this.
Seems like you're effectively penalised for having multiple clans in your army. Bit contrary to the whole ethos of trying to encourage people to play to the fluff, this.
Also seems like the list is actively encouraging people to take more than one warboss, which doesn't seem proppa at all.
Despite all that, I'm looking forward to getting hold of my books on Sat, throwing a list together, and getting stuck in. Has anyone seen any indications of suggested Power Levels for small-ish games yet?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/04 14:01:17
