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**jeff white**

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Well even if thats the case all that means is that Rubric marines will probably be 150 to 160 as well.

If you want primaris rubrics.
Old style rubrics will be 200 after kit,
and if on 25mm bases add 10%...

**Thousand-Son-Sorcerer**

What?

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

Now how do the interceptors take heavy weapons fire from strength 6-7 weapons (you know, crowd control weapons that are on most units currently)

How good is their invulnerable save?

How much more durable against strength 3 massed small arms fire?

A disintegrator would wipe out the interceptors wholesale, as will most other high Ap weapons.

You placed all of you stock on comparisons that ignore some of the most important abilities of the thousand suns.

A thousand suns warrior will always have at least a 5+ save, you can't say the same for the primaris marines in this comparison.

**Hückleberry**

Why mathhammer the cinematic version of 8th ed?

**Thousand-Son-Sorcerer**

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Now how do the interceptors take heavy weapons fire from strength 6-7 weapons (you know, crowd control weapons that are on most units currently)

How good is their invulnerable save?

How much more durable against strength 3 massed small arms fire?

A disintegrator would wipe out the interceptors wholesale, as will most other high Ap weapons.

You placed all of you stock on comparisons that ignore some of the most important abilities of the thousand suns.

A thousand suns warrior will always have at least a 5+ save, you can't say the same for the primaris marines in this comparison.

Tell you what we will play a game called i can deep strike on turn 1 unload my whole squad on your unit and charge you in the same turn preventing you from ever getting a single round of shooting, and getting first strike in CC which will probably wipe your squad out.

**greatbigtree**

Hückleberry wrote:
Why mathhammer the cinematic version of 8th ed?

How else could he deride a game that hasn't been released yet, to bemoan how Chaos got shafted [past-future tense?] without fully knowing how the rules work? He's got numbers, and no-one can apply real-game scenarios to it because he already said so! It's a perfectly Traditional [capital T] way of doing things.

You need the full rules, and an understanding of the scope of things. For all we know, the banner causes a hit equal to the models movement stat when they charge Rubrics...

**Thousand-Son-Sorcerer**

greatbigtree wrote:
Hückleberry wrote:
Why mathhammer the cinematic version of 8th ed?

How else could he deride a game that hasn't been released yet, to bemoan how Chaos got shafted [past-future tense?] without fully knowing how the rules work? He's got numbers, and no-one can apply real-game scenarios to it because he already said so! It's a perfectly Traditional [capital T] way of doing things.

You need the full rules, and an understanding of the scope of things. For all we know, the banner causes a hit equal to the models movement stat when they charge Rubrics...

Numbers dont lie. If you have an argument that refutes the numbers by all means share it. "Hes ignorant" isnt an argument i am taking what i know and applying it. Im sure chapter tactics wont give them a reroll on those bolters either.

**BrianDavion**

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
greatbigtree wrote:
Hückleberry wrote:
Why mathhammer the cinematic version of 8th ed?

How else could he deride a game that hasn't been released yet, to bemoan how Chaos got shafted [past-future tense?] without fully knowing how the rules work? He's got numbers, and no-one can apply real-game scenarios to it because he already said so! It's a perfectly Traditional [capital T] way of doing things.

You need the full rules, and an understanding of the scope of things. For all we know, the banner causes a hit equal to the models movement stat when they charge Rubrics...

Numner dont lie. If you have an argument that refutes the numbers by all means share it. "Hes ignorant" isnt an argument i am taking what i know and applying it. Im sure chapter tactics wont give them a reroll on those bolters either.

numbers don't lie if you ignore parts of the equiation. we have no idea what chapter tactics will be, no idea what Legion tactics will be, no idea what the icon of flame will do, no idea what death to the false emperor will do.

in short you're trying to insist that 1+1+1+X = 3.

**greatbigtree**

97% of people know that you can make up a statistic on the spot, and make it sound true when taken out of context. Numbers can be misleading, I can do it whenever I feel like it. Take a look at the graphs in advertisements.

And you are, by the definition of the word, ignorant of the total picture. We all are. What you've taken and run with is meaningless. It's like saying all the sand on the ocean floor is green, because I've seen green sand before so the bottom of the ocean must have green sand too. It's meaningless until you see the whole picture.

He's Ignorant, as you put it, is an entirely valid argument in this case. I can objectively prove you don't fully understand / know the rules and mechanics of the game, by asking you if you're a developer for GW? Assuming you're not, and assuming you haven't seen the complete rules, nor do you know what all those rules mean, and you don't have experience playing the forthcoming game... then you don't have any degree of demonstrable expertise, regarding the overall balance of the game.

So... yeah... you're just dumping on something you don't know about. Talking gak for the sake of an emotional high, but it doesn't mean anything in the long term.

**Thousand-Son-Sorcerer**

BrianDavion wrote:
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
greatbigtree wrote:
Hückleberry wrote:
Why mathhammer the cinematic version of 8th ed?

How else could he deride a game that hasn't been released yet, to bemoan how Chaos got shafted [past-future tense?] without fully knowing how the rules work? He's got numbers, and no-one can apply real-game scenarios to it because he already said so! It's a perfectly Traditional [capital T] way of doing things.

You need the full rules, and an understanding of the scope of things. For all we know, the banner causes a hit equal to the models movement stat when they charge Rubrics...

Numner dont lie. If you have an argument that refutes the numbers by all means share it. "Hes ignorant" isnt an argument i am taking what i know and applying it. Im sure chapter tactics wont give them a reroll on those bolters either.

numbers don't lie if you ignore parts of the equiation. we have no idea what chapter tactics will be, no idea what Legion tactics will be, no idea what the icon of flame will do, no idea what death to the false emperor will do.

in short you're trying to insist that 1+1+1+X = 3.

Im not ignoring parts of the equation. Im saying that as it looks right now and given all other things equal, which is what GW said they were striving for, A squad of these guys will rip through just about everything theu are put up against.

**BrianDavion**

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
greatbigtree wrote:
Hückleberry wrote:
Why mathhammer the cinematic version of 8th ed?

How else could he deride a game that hasn't been released yet, to bemoan how Chaos got shafted [past-future tense?] without fully knowing how the rules work? He's got numbers, and no-one can apply real-game scenarios to it because he already said so! It's a perfectly Traditional [capital T] way of doing things.

You need the full rules, and an understanding of the scope of things. For all we know, the banner causes a hit equal to the models movement stat when they charge Rubrics...

Numner dont lie. If you have an argument that refutes the numbers by all means share it. "Hes ignorant" isnt an argument i am taking what i know and applying it. Im sure chapter tactics wont give them a reroll on those bolters either.

numbers don't lie if you ignore parts of the equiation. we have no idea what chapter tactics will be, no idea what Legion tactics will be, no idea what the icon of flame will do, no idea what death to the false emperor will do.

in short you're trying to insist that 1+1+1+X = 3.

Im not ignoring parts of the equation. Im saying that as it looks right now and given all other things equal, which is what GW said they were striving for, A squad of these guys will rip through just about everything theu are put up against.

and will proably be pointed approperatly, no I don't expect PL to be a very reliable indicator of well.. anything. I don't think anyone really does. It'll be handy with gathering a quick non serious game with a friend or something, but.. as a real balancing tool? I suspect it'll be horriable

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Now how do the interceptors take heavy weapons fire from strength 6-7 weapons (you know, crowd control weapons that are on most units currently)

How good is their invulnerable save?

How much more durable against strength 3 massed small arms fire?

A disintegrator would wipe out the interceptors wholesale, as will most other high Ap weapons.

You placed all of you stock on comparisons that ignore some of the most important abilities of the thousand suns.

A thousand suns warrior will always have at least a 5+ save, you can't say the same for the primaris marines in this comparison.

Tell you what we will play a game called i can deep strike on turn 1 unload my whole squad on your unit and charge you in the same turn preventing you from ever getting a single round of shooting, and getting first strike in CC which will probably wipe your squad out.

That's fantastic! Now about those multiple d6 automatic hits for trying that nonsense. You may kill a couple of the thousand suns, but you are still going to take 10 automatic hits on average (assuming only 3 models left) so you could still lose 1/3 of your unit on the way in. And that's if you make a 9" charge. Yes you can use command points, so can I. That's an even brake there.

Go ahead, counter the complete invalidation of you argument by doing what you said others were not, by stacking the tactical odds in your favor. However, you response does nothing to negate the fact that the rubric marines have different and balanced counters to other lists that the interceptors do not. They are different units with different roles, defeated with different options in the armies across the game.

They may be at a disadvantage squad v squad, but they will obviously affect the game in general in a very similar fashion. The rubrics will move forward holding ground and threatening heavy infantry and light vehicles while the interceptors will be a rapid insertion unit dedicated to destroying an infantry unit by weight of fire and probably being wiped out the following turn.

**McGibs**

Im not ignoring parts of the equation. Im saying that as it looks right now and given all other things equal, which is what GW said they were striving for, A squad of these guys will rip through just about everything theu are put up against.

Every power level 8 unit isn't going to be balanced against every other power level 8 unit in the entire game.
The idea is that a power level 150 army will be somewhere in the same ballpark as another power level 150 army. Not even considering that the power levels are not "striving for all other things equal". It's a rough estimation of army potential. If you're going to try to grok pure numbers, at least wait until the points come out.

**Thousand-Son-Sorcerer**

greatbigtree wrote:
97% of people know that you can make up a statistic on the spot, and make it sound true when taken out of context. Numbers can be misleading, I can do it whenever I feel like it. Take a look at the graphs in advertisements.

And you are, by the definition of the word, ignorant of the total picture. We all are. What you've taken and run with is meaningless. It's like saying all the sand on the ocean floor is green, because I've seen green sand before so the bottom of the ocean must have green sand too. It's meaningless until you see the whole picture.

He's Ignorant, as you put it, is an entirely valid argument in this case. I can objectively prove you don't fully understand / know the rules and mechanics of the game, by asking you if you're a developer for GW? Assuming you're not, and assuming you haven't seen the complete rules, nor do you know what all those rules mean, and you don't have experience playing the forthcoming game... then you don't have any degree of demonstrable expertise, regarding the overall balance of the game.

So... yeah... you're just dumping on something you don't know about. Talking gak for the sake of an emotional high, but it doesn't mean anything in the long term.

A direct comparison of two things is not "making up" statistics.

You apparently dont understand the difference of total ignorance and specific ignorance. We know enough. We know that by adding 0 power points to Rubric Marines you would have to double thier move and give them better deployment options at the very least. Which in my humble opnion is an absurdity that sholudn't be considered. They have also given us a metric by which to measure which is what I did. I compared directly two units THE GAME DEVS say are about equal. And did a pretty good job of showing how they are far from it.

**Talamare**

McGibs wrote:
Im not ignoring parts of the equation. Im saying that as it looks right now and given all other things equal, which is what GW said they were striving for, A squad of these guys will rip through just about everything theu are put up against.

Every power level 8 unit isn't going to be balanced against every other power level 8 unit in the entire game.
The idea is that a power level 150 army will be somewhere in the same ballpark as another power level 150 army. Not even considering that the power levels are not "striving for all other things equal". It's a rough estimation of army potential. If you're going to try to grok pure numbers, at least wait until the points come out.

That seems pretty illogical

If Unit A is clearly superior to Unit B, and you're allowed the exact same amount of each.
Then Army of Unit A will pretty much continue to be superior to Army of Unit B.

At the very least, when the difference between these 2 are so massive they could have made Interceptors be Power 9 or Rubric be Power 7.

**Thousand-Son-Sorcerer**

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Now how do the interceptors take heavy weapons fire from strength 6-7 weapons (you know, crowd control weapons that are on most units currently)

How good is their invulnerable save?

How much more durable against strength 3 massed small arms fire?

A disintegrator would wipe out the interceptors wholesale, as will most other high Ap weapons.

You placed all of you stock on comparisons that ignore some of the most important abilities of the thousand suns.

A thousand suns warrior will always have at least a 5+ save, you can't say the same for the primaris marines in this comparison.

Tell you what we will play a game called i can deep strike on turn 1 unload my whole squad on your unit and charge you in the same turn preventing you from ever getting a single round of shooting, and getting first strike in CC which will probably wipe your squad out.

That's fantastic! Now about those multiple d6 automatic hits for trying that nonsense. You may kill a couple of the thousand suns, but you are still going to take 10 automatic hits on average (assuming only 3 models left) so you could still lose 1/3 of your unit on the way in. And that's if you make a 9" charge. Yes you can use command points, so can I. That's an even brake there.

Go ahead, counter the complete invalidation of you argument by doing what you said others were not, by stacking the tactical odds in your favor. However, you response does nothing to negate the fact that the rubric marines have different and balanced counters to other lists that the interceptors do not. They are different units with different roles, defeated with different options in the armies across the game.

They may be at a disadvantage squad v squad, but they will obviously affect the game in general in a very similar fashion. The rubrics will move forward holding ground and threatening heavy infantry and light vehicles while the interceptors will be a rapid insertion unit dedicated to destroying an infantry unit by weight of fire and probably being wiped out the following turn.

Heres your problem if you bring flamers your range is 9" im not going to charge you ill sit at 13-18" and shoot you down while you grit your teeth and die, you still lose and payed more GJ.

Its not about stacking the odds in my favor is about real time reactions. People always bring up examples where the enemy is apparently the dumbest opponent ever to win fights. Even if you bring bolters i could still deep strike in 18 inces away unload kill 2-3 you move up take maybe 1 guy and thats streching it on 2 bolter shots and physic power I shoot again and charge your dead at the end of round two.

I would also like to point out that you keep changing the loadout while i am stcking to the same stock stuff in the data sheet.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

McGibs wrote:
Im not ignoring parts of the equation. Im saying that as it looks right now and given all other things equal, which is what GW said they were striving for, A squad of these guys will rip through just about everything theu are put up against.

Every power level 8 unit isn't going to be balanced against every other power level 8 unit in the entire game.
The idea is that a power level 150 army will be somewhere in the same ballpark as another power level 150 army. Not even considering that the power levels are not "striving for all other things equal". It's a rough estimation of army potential. If you're going to try to grok pure numbers, at least wait until the points come out.

Assuming your right how are they predicting the exact units people will bring? If every army has a low mid and high and one person brings all low and anotherbrings all high there is no balace there. They can't try to predict the EXACT units people will pick.

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

Again, you are having a direct fight between these two units, where the rubric marines never get to use their invulnerable saves and any time someone points out the weapon options available to rubrics you dismiss their statement out of hand as if they were only ever going to be fighting interceptors.

The rubrics trade speed for better Ap and durability against high Ap weapons that the interceptors do not have. They have different targets and roles.

You're being unfair in your comparison in a futile attempt to prove you are right. Your comparison is flawed and should not be taken seriously as an example of imbalance.

**jeff white**

This is an apples to oranges comparison to some degree.
But IMO the anxiety is warranted.
Nothing so far indicates that GW will be handling things like this with much nuance.
Still, it seems that a squad of Rubrics should wreck a similarly configured squad of tactical marines by definition, otherwise chaos is just not all that scary and the points increase is simply not worth it.
It may be the case that chaos players will be left better off collecting chaos mahweens and calling them traitors but using the loyalist mahween rules to do so.

**Talamare**

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Again, you are having a direct fight between these two units, where the rubric marines never get to use their invulnerable saves and any time someone points out the weapon options available to rubrics you dismiss their statement out of hand as if they were only ever going to be fighting interceptors.

The rubrics trade speed for better Ap and durability against high Ap weapons that the interceptors do not have. They have different targets and roles.

You're being unfair in your comparison in a futile attempt to prove you are right. Your comparison is flawed and should not be taken seriously as an example of imbalance.

AP is a gradual improvement now. Having a 1 AP advantage is less significant now than it was before.
AP 3 vs an Av3 unit used to mean 66% more shots would go thru, while the Assault Bolter in the past would be AP4, which meant it did absolutely nothing against Av3.
66% vs 0% difference
In 8e it's 33% vs 16% difference.

The 1 STR Advantage the Assault Bolter has basically makes it a wash.

After that we just need to consider the fact that Assault Heavy Bolters have 3 shots.

**Earth127**

Major error: only calculating average 50/50 and not variance to 41/59. For my point by point analysis I am going to make the same error simply becaus the math gets too convoluted otherwise (I don't feel like doing it for an hour or more, if someone does pls do).
Power level 8 assumes stronger then 7, weaker than 9. leading the a potential 16% percent difference within it.
You have not calculated the squad leaders.

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Inceptor vs Rubric Marines

Movement: 10" vs 5"

inceptors are better

Effective range: 28" vs 29"

only trough for shooting. In a vaccuum meaningless difference.

Shots at 12"/18"/24": 18/18/0 vs 9/4/4

hte incepros have more shots at shorter range. In a vaccuum this is better. In practrice the range is a not unimportant factor

Wounds: 6 vs 5

With multiwound weapons being a thing the 2*3 becomes worse. the TS have 5*1. Any shots with multiple damage even ,if it is random, will play much more havoc on the inceptors than the TS even with teir AS becoming one worse.

Mortal wounds per game: 3 vs 4

For the inceptors this is true if they get 7.2 charges . Vs 3.5 smite powers on the TS aspiring sorcerer. UTTERLY USELESS comparison on your end. Heavily in favor of the TS and a major factor vs everything. Not even accounting for the higher chance of the smites vs the charge. This is by very far the worst mistake in your maths

Wounds lost per 20 regular bolter shots: 1.47 vs 1.09

correct

Wounds lost per 20 regular bolter shots in cover: .71 vs 1.09

cover is not a vaccuum. This goes againts the basice of your math. Useless and wrong

Fire power lost at 2/4/6 rounds: 33%/100%/100% vs 44%/88%/100%

True but way too much averaging out to be a usefull statistic. Calcualted at 9 inch range.

Fire power lost at 2/4/6 rounds in cover: 0%/33%/66% vs 44%/88%/100%

see above.

]Deployment options: anywhere 9" away from enemies vs regular deployment.

True accounted for in shooting but the vaccuum requirement ignore far to many factors here

MEQ killed in single round of shooting 12"/18"/24": 3.92/3.92/0 vs 1.96/0.87/0.87

No clue how you calcuated this but its 1/1/0 for inceptors and 0.5/0.22/0.22. Inceptors are still beter but this was way of the mark and even with my corrections still wrong since it does not account for icon of flame.

Melee wounds per turn vs MEQ: .76 vs 1.29

I get 1.1 for the TS, same for the inceptors

Melee wounds taken vs 10 MEQ: .718 vs 1.09 (.545?)

I get 1.48 for the inceptors and 0.55 for the TS. This is assumiong the MEQ have 2 attacks

Power level: 8 vs 8

Strait up fight: Rubrics lose after 2 rounds of fighting doing 1-2 wounds. Even if they don't deep strike.

[color=orange]Completely wrong in a straight up melee fight assuming no charge bonusses and both strike at the same time (not never going to happen but the activation system makes vaccuum mathhammer impossible) the TS win over the course over +/-- 6 rounds of close combat. dealing 247% more wounds to the inceptors. Note this not taking the reduction of power via caualtie sin acount wich would change it even more in favor of the Ts since the sorcerer deals most of the damage with his force weapon the rubrics marines are basicly ablative wounds. [/color]

So basically if you can manage to find cover Inceptors are somewhere between 1.5 and 1.75 times better then Rubrics, but are the same power level...right.

Edit:

Plz do not try to add "context" anything you add to one side you would have to add to the other to equal it out. Making it a fruitless effort.

Keep in mind that adding more Rubricae would not decrease the problem it would increse the problem. Inceptors have a clear advantage add more units multiplies the gap it does NOT shrink it.
It does decrease the problem since it unlocks the reaper autocannon and they become cheaper

I think you have seriouly underestimated your aspiring sorcerer and His abilities, both smite and force weapons even in a vacuum.
Especially the mortal wounds error is pretty much unforgivable. 3-4 psychic power manifested in a game happens, SEVEN charges by and large do not.Most games aren't even seven turns.

TLDR: you have screwed up your maths massively in favor of your argument

edit math error

**BoomWolf**

The fun part here is, that even assuming his calculations were spot-on, and the inceptors did easily beat rubrics at the same power level, it still ignores two important factors:

1-power level is a really rough estimate, same power level=/=same point cost.

2-not all units are equal versus all units. bad matchups and good matchups exist. and inceptors are probably some of the worst matchup possible for rubrics. they are just not made to fight that king of enemy, they are made to butcher line infantry.

**stonehorse**

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Tell you what we will play a game called i can deep strike on turn 1 unload my whole squad on your unit and charge you in the same turn preventing you from ever getting a single round of shooting, and getting first strike in CC which will probably wipe your squad out.

A few points here, the deep strike has to be further away than 9", so you are going to need to roll a 9 on 2D6 to get to charge, as you only need to come within 1" of the unit to fight them. However if you land and unload all that firepower I can remove a model that is closest to your unit, thus increasing the distance you need to charge. Plus When you do charge I can Overwatch, which should do some damage, I may be hitting on 6's, but with Inferno Bolters it is still going to hurt. In combat the Inceptors aren't that great, 2 attacks each. The Thosand Sons have a Sorcerer with a Force Sword and an Inferno Pistol, he'll help reduce the Inceptors.

If the Inceptors use their fly keyword to hit and run, this does allow the Thosand Sons a round of shooting and Overwatch.

One other point is that 40k is mission and objective based, we have seen that objectives are now claimed by players who have the most models near an objective. The Inceptors being a 3 model unit aren't going to be good at claiming or contesting objectives, where as Thousand Sons are better.

The Inceptors are good, but aren't meant to be used as a unit you throw down the enemies throat. They are a unit that is used to jump on weakened units and deliver the killing blow. Sending them in against a full unit of Marines is a bad idea, they lack the numbers to survive a protracted conflict.

**Earth127**

Actually it's 10 on 2D6 since you have to be more then 9 inch away not 9 inch.

Also pls do charge the TS unit, the force weapon on the aspiring sorcerer makes short work of them.

**stonehorse**

Earth127 wrote:
Actually it's 10 on 2D6 since you have to be more then 9 inch away not 9 inch.

Also pls do charge the TS unit, the force weapon on the aspiring sorcerer makes short work of them.

Only need to get within 1" now to be in a combat, so needs a 9, which is not likely. And allows the Thousand Sons to Overwatch, and them in their turn to get closer, shoot the unit, and also engage it in combat where their numbers will work in their favour.

**McGibs**

Talamare wrote:
McGibs wrote:
Im not ignoring parts of the equation. Im saying that as it looks right now and given all other things equal, which is what GW said they were striving for, A squad of these guys will rip through just about everything theu are put up against.

Every power level 8 unit isn't going to be balanced against every other power level 8 unit in the entire game.
The idea is that a power level 150 army will be somewhere in the same ballpark as another power level 150 army. Not even considering that the power levels are not "striving for all other things equal". It's a rough estimation of army potential. If you're going to try to grok pure numbers, at least wait until the points come out.

That seems pretty illogical

If Unit A is clearly superior to Unit B, and you're allowed the exact same amount of each.
Then Army of Unit A will pretty much continue to be superior to Army of Unit B.

At the very least, when the difference between these 2 are so massive they could have made Interceptors be Power 9 or Rubric be Power 7.

You assume people are going to bring armies ENTIRELY of Rubrics and Inceptors??

**ERJAK**

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Inceptor vs Rubric Marines

Movement: 10" vs 5"

Effective range: 28" vs 29"

Shots at 12"/18"/24": 18/18/0 vs 9/4/4

Wounds: 6 vs 5

Mortal wounds per game: 3 vs 4

Wounds lost per 20 regular bolter shots: 1.47 vs 1.09

Wounds lost per 20 regular bolter shots in cover: .71 vs 1.09

Fire power lost at 2/4/6 rounds: 33%/100%/100% vs 44%/88%/100%

Fire power lost at 2/4/6 rounds in cover: 0%/33%/66% vs 44%/88%/100%

Deployment options: anywhere 9" away from enemies vs regular deployment.

MEQ killed in single round of shooting 12"/18"/24": 3.92/3.92/0 vs 1.96/0.87/0.87

Melee wounds per turn vs MEQ: .76 vs 1.29

Melee wounds taken vs 10 MEQ: .718 vs 1.09 (.545?)

Power level: 8 vs 8

Strait up fight: Rubrics lose after 2 rounds of fighting doing 1-2 wounds. Even if they don't deep strike.

So basically if you can manage to find cover Inceptors are somewhere between 1.5 and 1.75 times better then Rubrics, but are the same power level...right.

Edit:

Plz do not try to add "context" anything you add to one side you would have to add to the other to equal it out. Making it a fruitless effort.

Keep in mind that adding more Rubricae would not decrease the problem it would increse the problem. Inceptors have a clear advantage add more units multiplies the gap it does NOT shrink it.

Yawn. Chaos players complaining about nothing again, is it tuesday already?

**oldzoggy**

I would like you do starcraft unit reviews. ; )

**Motograter**

Tiny, tiny violins everywhere

**greatbigtree**

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

A direct comparison of two things is not "making up" statistics.

You apparently dont understand the difference of total ignorance and specific ignorance. We know enough. We know that by adding 0 power points to Rubric Marines you would have to double thier move and give them better deployment options at the very least. Which in my humble opnion is an absurdity that sholudn't be considered. They have also given us a metric by which to measure which is what I did. I compared directly two units THE GAME DEVS say are about equal. And did a pretty good job of showing how they are far from it.

Lulz... you are specifically ignorant about most of the premise you present. You are creating a specific scenario in which your numbers... which I'm going to have to double check now... favour a bias you had before you even began. You have 10 pieces of a 100 piece puzzle and believe yourself capable of predicting the remaining 90 pieces. Congratulations! What's tomorrows lottery numbers? You only need 7/45 pieces to get that one right.

There's no metric given here, as that would indicate sufficient information given to make a clear decisions. You're speculating based on incomplete information. Period. There's no other endgame. And you're upset that in the specific scenario that you envision, that no one else is allowed to alter, that the worst-case scenario is that Rubrics bite it to the other models.

How agrievating that I'll need to crunch those numbers today.

**Kandela**

So... you are comparing a unit with an obvious counter-unit and bemoaning the fact that a counter-unit wins? What did you expect with 18 Heavy Bolter shot? That the normal infantry albeit with a better save and higher AP will just shake this kind of firepower off and wipe the squad next turn?