Same old same old different edition

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**Martel732**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Tac marines got cheaper because they were and are gak. They are super gak in 8th.

I dunno. They got the indirect buff in that their Heavy weapons can fire on the move now. It's definitely something you can't ignore, and a Melta/Multi/Combi Squad from a Pod doesn't sound as bad.

Watch me ignore it. They're still terrible. Them and their BS 3 heavy weapons lol. We're coming out of an edition with fast heavy weapons squads as troops. Slightly better tac squads are still victims.

**ClockworkZion**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Tac marines got cheaper because they were and are gak. They are super gak in 8th.

I dunno. They got the indirect buff in that their Heavy weapons can fire on the move now. It's definitely something you can't ignore, and a Melta/Multi/Combi Squad from a Pod doesn't sound as bad.

Not only that, but there seem to be no charging restrictions for shooting rapid fire or heavy weapons either. So you can short range bolter someone while also using a HB to thin a unit and then charge what's left to kill it off.

You know, like they do in the lore.

**ross-128**

Sounds like some people here need to play Imperial Guard. That'll teach them some lessons about assessing a unit based on comparing single models and ignoring how they interact with the rest of the list.

**Martel732**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Tac marines got cheaper because they were and are gak. They are super gak in 8th.

I dunno. They got the indirect buff in that their Heavy weapons can fire on the move now. It's definitely something you can't ignore, and a Melta/Multi/Combi Squad from a Pod doesn't sound as bad.

Not only that, but there seem to be no charging restrictions for shooting rapid fire or heavy weapons either. So you can short range bolter someone while also using a HB to thin a unit and then charge what's left to kill it off.

You know, like they do in the lore.

Let me know how that works out for you. Protip: it won't. The lore clearly means nothing in the tabletop game.

**BrianDavion**

Martel732 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Tac marines got cheaper because they were and are gak. They are super gak in 8th.

I dunno. They got the indirect buff in that their Heavy weapons can fire on the move now. It's definitely something you can't ignore, and a Melta/Multi/Combi Squad from a Pod doesn't sound as bad.

Watch me ignore it. They're still terrible. Them and their BS 3 heavy weapons lol. We're coming out of an edition with fast heavy weapons squads as troops. Slightly better tac squads are still victims.

they're better then they where, every thing we've seen about 8th suggests Marines are going to be buffed

**Thousand-Son-Sorcerer**

BoomWolf wrote:
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I think you're overreacting without seeing the entire game or the matched points. Power levels seem very coarse. Personally, I fear the 1K sons more at this point because of their save mods.

Now looking at PL we have something good with the rules leak. We know Inceptors are a single 3 man unit that has two weapons and we know they are going to cost around 160 points. which means PL is probably Points/20. Its super easy to do and they don't have to come up with a system. Lets assume the PL gap is as big as possible. 7.5 for Rubrics, and 8.4 for Inceptors, rounded up and down respectively. even then you end up with only an 18 point difference. So if you keep the prices reasonable, add a Rhino 40 points, add an Icon which is going to almost double ranged capabilities which is unreasonable in general but keeping something like that to only 40 points, the base cost of Rubrics would be around 60-80 points, which is wholly unreasonable.

Have you somehow missed the post about PL/points ratio I did JUST LAST PAGE?

From merely 4 units that we know both PL and point cost of, we got a wide range of 16.666 to 21.143

4 units. and the edge cases are 25% apart.
And that's for units with FIXED LOADOUTS

Power level means NOTHING about the actual point value of units. at all.
Its supposed to give a rough estimate that once you pile WHOLE ARMIES around it, it sorta makes sense that the two armies are at the same ballpark

Because inceptors are effectively crisis suits, like any FSE player would know-the individual suit is rather OP for the cost/effect ratio, but as you pile them they become a burden on the army as a whole because you got too little manpower to hold ground, or to control the board.
Inceptors share the exact same issue. the more you field them, the quicker you run out of points with very actual board presence. you can alpha things, you can defiantly nuke targets of choice-but you lack staying power. you get easily blown off the table by a few bad rolls, or some well-positioned shooters you just can't reach.
The new deepstrike-without-error is a double edged sword. I honestly am not sure its better than old scatter for the user
If I place a circle of 17" inch around my defended target-you can't deepstrike, at all. while before it would have been a really safe drop. heck, I used to pull 5-inch gap drops all the time (it seems that the more balls I had, the more luck I had with scattering, its the "safe" drops that got horribly messed, while the balsy ones went perfectly)
So, I can easily force you to land as far as 30" away from the thing I'm trying to defend (counting three sets on 9" and the model size of the defenders), heck its yet another advantage of bigger model count-you can lock out more of the table from deepstrikes.

Back to the original point, the PL is vague, very much so.
Its not reflective of points, it has huge divergence even counting just within the starter set's primaris.
The Rubrics are 5 for 6 PL and 2 more to upgrade a rubric to a sorcerer, so the sorcerer alone counts for 3.2 PL of the unit. this calculated that the sorcerer can deny spells (inceptors got no equivalent skill)
Rubric PL calculates the following unknown factors: DttFE (we got a rumor, nothing solid), icon of flame (theoretically could be insane), faction spells (again, theoretically insane), etc.

Your entire analysis, and panic induced by it, is based on partial information, and a completely bs premises that PL equal points.

The PL is vague because we don't know the exact number to go off of. Oh wait we have 1 unit that we can go off of, I-N-C-E-P-O-T-R-S. Because we know their points cost AND we know they have no options other then what they have. We know the PL is based on the points cost of "half upgrades" So the PL is going to be Points/20, or around that I took the most extreme case 7.5 PL for Rubrics 8.4 for Inceptors. which leaves only a 19 point gap. Even at 22 points its only a 20 point gap. Aspiring Sorcerers get 1 spell Pseudo Smite that's it. So the Spells aren't doing it. Rhino will cost between 30 and 50 points probably, 40 on average. So the Icon of Flame would have to near double the effect of their ranged capabilities, 30-40 points, 35 on average, 75 points total on average, 75-160 = 85 would be the base cost of a Unit of Rubric Marines Stock, 10 points more then Tac Marines.

**Talamare**

It's true that Tactics ARE NOT Math.

I agree with that point, Tactics is basically how your troops move around the battlefield and how you incorporate every advantage to your advantage. That being said, Math plays its role.

If my units are vastly mathematically superior to yours, your tactics NEEDS to be vastly superior than mine for you to stand a chance.

**Martel732**

Oh really? Boltguns have no AP at all. That doesn't seem like a buff.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
BoomWolf wrote:
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I think you're overreacting without seeing the entire game or the matched points. Power levels seem very coarse. Personally, I fear the 1K sons more at this point because of their save mods.

Now looking at PL we have something good with the rules leak. We know Inceptors are a single 3 man unit that has two weapons and we know they are going to cost around 160 points. which means PL is probably Points/20. Its super easy to do and they don't have to come up with a system. Lets assume the PL gap is as big as possible. 7.5 for Rubrics, and 8.4 for Inceptors, rounded up and down respectively. even then you end up with only an 18 point difference. So if you keep the prices reasonable, add a Rhino 40 points, add an Icon which is going to almost double ranged capabilities which is unreasonable in general but keeping something like that to only 40 points, the base cost of Rubrics would be around 60-80 points, which is wholly unreasonable.

Have you somehow missed the post about PL/points ratio I did JUST LAST PAGE?

From merely 4 units that we know both PL and point cost of, we got a wide range of 16.666 to 21.143

4 units. and the edge cases are 25% apart.
And that's for units with FIXED LOADOUTS

Power level means NOTHING about the actual point value of units. at all.
Its supposed to give a rough estimate that once you pile WHOLE ARMIES around it, it sorta makes sense that the two armies are at the same ballpark

Because inceptors are effectively crisis suits, like any FSE player would know-the individual suit is rather OP for the cost/effect ratio, but as you pile them they become a burden on the army as a whole because you got too little manpower to hold ground, or to control the board.
Inceptors share the exact same issue. the more you field them, the quicker you run out of points with very actual board presence. you can alpha things, you can defiantly nuke targets of choice-but you lack staying power. you get easily blown off the table by a few bad rolls, or some well-positioned shooters you just can't reach.
The new deepstrike-without-error is a double edged sword. I honestly am not sure its better than old scatter for the user
If I place a circle of 17" inch around my defended target-you can't deepstrike, at all. while before it would have been a really safe drop. heck, I used to pull 5-inch gap drops all the time (it seems that the more balls I had, the more luck I had with scattering, its the "safe" drops that got horribly messed, while the balsy ones went perfectly)
So, I can easily force you to land as far as 30" away from the thing I'm trying to defend (counting three sets on 9" and the model size of the defenders), heck its yet another advantage of bigger model count-you can lock out more of the table from deepstrikes.

Back to the original point, the PL is vague, very much so.
Its not reflective of points, it has huge divergence even counting just within the starter set's primaris.
The Rubrics are 5 for 6 PL and 2 more to upgrade a rubric to a sorcerer, so the sorcerer alone counts for 3.2 PL of the unit. this calculated that the sorcerer can deny spells (inceptors got no equivalent skill)
Rubric PL calculates the following unknown factors: DttFE (we got a rumor, nothing solid), icon of flame (theoretically could be insane), faction spells (again, theoretically insane), etc.

Your entire analysis, and panic induced by it, is based on partial information, and a completely bs premises that PL equal points.

The PL is vague because we don't know the exact number to go off of. Oh wait we have 1 unit that we can go off of, I-N-C-E-P-O-T-R-S. Because we know their points cost AND we know they have no options other then what they have. We know the PL is based on the points cost of "half upgrades" So the PL is going to be Points/20, or around that I took the most extreme case 7.5 PL for Rubrics 8.4 for Inceptors. which leaves only a 19 point gap. Even at 22 points its only a 20 point gap. Aspiring Sorcerers get 1 spell Pseudo Smite that's it. So the Spells aren't doing it. Rhino will cost between 30 and 50 points probably, 40 on average. So the Icon of Flame would have to near double the effect of their ranged capabilities, 30-40 points, 35 on average, 75 points total on average, 75-160 = 85 would be the base cost of a Unit of Rubric Marines Stock, 10 points more then Tac Marines.

Sounds about right to me.

**ClockworkZion**

Martel732 wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Tac marines got cheaper because they were and are gak. They are super gak in 8th.

I dunno. They got the indirect buff in that their Heavy weapons can fire on the move now. It's definitely something you can't ignore, and a Melta/Multi/Combi Squad from a Pod doesn't sound as bad.

Not only that, but there seem to be no charging restrictions for shooting rapid fire or heavy weapons either. So you can short range bolter someone while also using a HB to thin a unit and then charge what's left to kill it off.

You know, like they do in the lore.

Let me know how that works out for you. Protip: it won't. The lore clearly means nothing in the tabletop game.

Hop out of their Rhino, shoot a target unit (say..Gaunts), charge the Rhino in to to take the Overwatch, then charge the Tacts in to stomp some bugs.

Sounds viable to me as a tactic.

But you know, since the math doesn't say that the Marines automatically win the game because they do this it's super bad.

**Martel732**

The actual ability of tac marines to fight in CC has always been terrible on a per pt basis. This doesn't look like its changing.

**ClockworkZion**

Talamare wrote:
It's true that Tactics ARE NOT Math.

I agree with that point, Tactics is basically how your troops move around the battlefield and how you incorporate every advantage to your advantage. That being said, Math plays its role.

If my units are vastly mathematically superior to yours, your tactics NEEDS to be vastly superior than mine for you to stand a chance.

Indeed, they both have a role. I beat a Decurion Necron list in 7th with Sisters despite having three models left in my entire army (he basically only lost three models in his entire army) because I had Objective Secure troops on 2 objectives to his 1.

Tactics can make weak units and armies win over numerically superior ones. Even in 40k.

**Martel732**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Talamare wrote:
It's true that Tactics ARE NOT Math.

I agree with that point, Tactics is basically how your troops move around the battlefield and how you incorporate every advantage to your advantage. That being said, Math plays its role.

If my units are vastly mathematically superior to yours, your tactics NEEDS to be vastly superior than mine for you to stand a chance.

Indeed, they both have a role. I beat a Decurion Necron list in 7th with Sisters despite having three models left in my entire army (he basically only lost three models in his entire army) because I had Objective Secure troops on 2 objectives to his 1.

Tactics can make weak units and armies win over numerically superior ones. Even in 40k.

Sometimes. How many times out of 100 do you think you could do that the Decurion? 5? 10? That's what matters, not the fact that it is possible.

**ClockworkZion**

Martel732 wrote:
The actual ability of tac marines to fight in CC has always been terrible on a per pt basis. This doesn't look like its changing.

Most units took a hit in CC due to losing chargine bonuses and CCW/BP bonus attacks. We,ll see how that plays out with the full game in a couple of weeks..

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
Talamare wrote:
It's true that Tactics ARE NOT Math.

I agree with that point, Tactics is basically how your troops move around the battlefield and how you incorporate every advantage to your advantage. That being said, Math plays its role.

If my units are vastly mathematically superior to yours, your tactics NEEDS to be vastly superior than mine for you to stand a chance.

Indeed, they both have a role. I beat a Decurion Necron list in 7th with Sisters despite having three models left in my entire army (he basically only lost three models in his entire army) because I had Objective Secure troops on 2 objectives to his 1.

Tactics can make weak units and armies win over numerically superior ones. Even in 40k.

Sometimes. How many times out of 100 do you think you could do that the Decurion? 5? 10? That's what matters, not the fact that it is possible.

Considering I was failing wounding rolls constantly the game should have been closer.

Point is that I covered my weaknesses through tactics and leveraged my only real strength (Obj Sec) to win despite basically losing my entire army. This is something all players try to do. Relying solely on numerical advantage isn't enough to consistently win games.

**Martel732**

You're fooling yourself if you think that tac marines will be effective in CC.

"Relying solely on numerical advantage isn't enough to consistently win games."

Depends on how many scatterbikes you've got, I guess. Because killing everything by turn 3 is a good way to win. Oh, and they're all obj sec.

The Decurion is no longer even in my top 10 7th ed lists for the exact reason you gave. I've even tabled Decurions before. Because maximum face-punching.

**ClockworkZion**

Martel732 wrote:
You're fooling yourself if you think that tac marines will be effective in CC.

Effective but not dominant is my expectation. Tacts are swiss army knives, not dedicated murder machines.

**Martel732**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
You're fooling yourself if you think that tac marines will be effective in CC.

Effective but not dominant is my expectation. Tacts are swiss army knives, not dedicated murder machines.

Blunt swiss army knives without any of the extra tools, maybe. You're still paying a lot for 1 attack, 1 wound models. They won't be good.

**ClockworkZion**

Also please prove an all Scat bike army is still legal in 8th before using it as an example.

**Martel732**

Well, there's no decurion in 8th either, but that was brought up.

**ClockworkZion**

Martel732 wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
You're fooling yourself if you think that tac marines will be effective in CC.

Effective but not dominant is my expectation. Tacts are swiss army knives, not dedicated murder machines.

Blunt swiss army knives without any of the extra tools, maybe.

You argue from a skewed perspective of what "effective" actually means. They,re not Firewarriors. You can use em in cose commbat to finish off weakend units. They just won't win you games if you rely on assault alone.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Well, there's no decurion in 8th either, but that was brought up.

As an example of using tactics to beat math, not as an example of how 8th plays.

**Martel732**

And I'm using scatterbikes as an example when tactics can't beat math. Because the math is too overwhelming.

I've been using tac marines since 2nd ed, except when I didn't have to in 5th. They've always been crap. Pure crap.

**BrianDavion**

Martel732 wrote:
Oh really? Boltguns have no AP at all. That doesn't seem like a buff.

there are three ways to buff a unit in 40k (or any table top game really) the first is just to increase the stats, the third is to decrease the points cost, the third way is to change how the base rules interact with those stats to produce a better army.

it seems 8th edition is gonna give Marines the third way, Tac Squads may now, split their fire against multiple targets (this means a varfity of things pop up, for example, a tac squad could bolter down some infantry near an enemy tank, while the meltagun and multimelta in the squad burn down the tank) they can fire their heavy weapons on the move (hitting on a 4 or better isn't exactly that bad. and it IS an improvement) there are a number of little things like that that'll be improvements.

**Martel732**

BrianDavion wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Oh really? Boltguns have no AP at all. That doesn't seem like a buff.

there are three ways to buff a unit in 40k (or any table top game really) the first is just to increase the stats, the third is to decrease the points cost, the third way is to change how the base rules interact with those stats to produce a better army.

it seems 8th edition is gonna give Marines the third way, Tac Squads may now, split their fire against multiple targets (this means a varfity of things pop up, for example, a tac squad could bolter down some infantry near an enemy tank, while the meltagun and multimelta in the squad burn down the tank) they can fire their heavy weapons on the move (hitting on a 4 or better isn't exactly that bad. and it IS an improvement) there are a number of little things like that that'll be improvements.

I didn't say they wouldn't be better. But they are so terrible atm that I don't think these buffs are going to change how they end up playing in the table at all. They get a single heavy weapon. I can spam heavies on other platforms. And -2 AP weapons are going to render regular marines as utter chaff. That's my prediction atm.

The bottom line is that the bolter schlub doesn't bring enough value to the table to justify the tac squad. Even with combi, special , heavy, their firepower is still awful and their CC is abysmal. 13 pts is still too much, just like 14 was, and 16, and 22, and 30.

**ERJAK**

Martel732 wrote:
And I'm using scatterbikes as an example when tactics can't beat math. Because the math is too overwhelming.

I've been using tac marines since 2nd ed, except when I didn't have to in 5th. They've always been crap. Pure crap.

Tbf grav cannon tacs with scout in free rhinos were preeeetttyy good. But that's like 80points of free/op extras?

Also, judging by this thread DG must be super Tau'nar levels of busted. Since numarines are clearly a scheme by GW to take chaos players happiness away, it seems weird that DG were winning most of the time.

**Martel732**

The Numarines aren't that impressive. It's easy to imagine much more cost effective units. The problem is that they started with the base marine, who was completely ineffective in 7th without very powerful gimmicks.

I do have faith that nothing will be Tau'nar busted in 8th, but that is a VERY low bar.

**Leth**

Not gonna lie, it was fun reading how the arguments didn't change over time factoring in other things we know.

Wonder who does better against lascannons and heavy multi wound attacks.

If I had to guess I think a rhino would cost 2 power so can someone compare 6 interceptors to the durability and damage output of a 10 man unit of rubrics with a rhino. Most likely still having two fire points so they can fire two weapons out the top

**ross-128**

Well, let's say we try applying the same logic to something more familiar: Guardsmen and Tacticals.

A squad of Guardsmen and a squad of Tacs will probably end up being the same power level, because Guardsmen have about half the cost per model but get double the models in a basic squad. Over all, the difference between their base costs is not large enough to make the power level change (because it's less than 20 points).

So we'll run with some fairly poor assumptions and do a shootout between them at 24".

Tac 1: 4 shots, 2/3 hit, 2/3 wound, 1/3 save, 1.18 wounds on average.
Guardsmen: 9 shots, 1/2 hit, 1/3 wound, 2/3 save, 0.5 wounds on average

Oh no, those poor Guardsmen less than half the damage output despite having twice as many models, how horrible! And this is after getting a save they wouldn't have gotten before! Clearly Guardsmen are absolutely worthless.

But I'm sure we all know why that's not true. Guardsmen have quite a lot of tricks up their sleeve that such a simple look doesn't even come close to accounting for, particularly when looked at as part of a full list.

**BoomWolf**

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
BoomWolf wrote:
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I think you're overreacting without seeing the entire game or the matched points. Power levels seem very coarse. Personally, I fear the 1K sons more at this point because of their save mods.

Now looking at PL we have something good with the rules leak. We know Inceptors are a single 3 man unit that has two weapons and we know they are going to cost around 160 points. which means PL is probably Points/20. Its super easy to do and they don't have to come up with a system. Lets assume the PL gap is as big as possible. 7.5 for Rubrics, and 8.4 for Inceptors, rounded up and down respectively. even then you end up with only an 18 point difference. So if you keep the prices reasonable, add a Rhino 40 points, add an Icon which is going to almost double ranged capabilities which is unreasonable in general but keeping something like that to only 40 points, the base cost of Rubrics would be around 60-80 points, which is wholly unreasonable.

Have you somehow missed the post about PL/points ratio I did JUST LAST PAGE?

From merely 4 units that we know both PL and point cost of, we got a wide range of 16.666 to 21.143

4 units. and the edge cases are 25% apart.
And that's for units with FIXED LOADOUTS

Power level means NOTHING about the actual point value of units. at all.
Its supposed to give a rough estimate that once you pile WHOLE ARMIES around it, it sorta makes sense that the two armies are at the same ballpark

Because inceptors are effectively crisis suits, like any FSE player would know-the individual suit is rather OP for the cost/effect ratio, but as you pile them they become a burden on the army as a whole because you got too little manpower to hold ground, or to control the board.
Inceptors share the exact same issue. the more you field them, the quicker you run out of points with very actual board presence. you can alpha things, you can defiantly nuke targets of choice-but you lack staying power. you get easily blown off the table by a few bad rolls, or some well-positioned shooters you just can't reach.
The new deepstrike-without-error is a double edged sword. I honestly am not sure its better than old scatter for the user
If I place a circle of 17" inch around my defended target-you can't deepstrike, at all. while before it would have been a really safe drop. heck, I used to pull 5-inch gap drops all the time (it seems that the more balls I had, the more luck I had with scattering, its the "safe" drops that got horribly messed, while the balsy ones went perfectly)
So, I can easily force you to land as far as 30" away from the thing I'm trying to defend (counting three sets on 9" and the model size of the defenders), heck its yet another advantage of bigger model count-you can lock out more of the table from deepstrikes.

Back to the original point, the PL is vague, very much so.
Its not reflective of points, it has huge divergence even counting just within the starter set's primaris.
The Rubrics are 5 for 6 PL and 2 more to upgrade a rubric to a sorcerer, so the sorcerer alone counts for 3.2 PL of the unit. this calculated that the sorcerer can deny spells (inceptors got no equivalent skill)
Rubric PL calculates the following unknown factors: DttFE (we got a rumor, nothing solid), icon of flame (theoretically could be insane), faction spells (again, theoretically insane), etc.

Your entire analysis, and panic induced by it, is based on partial information, and a completely bs premises that PL equal points.

The PL is vague because we don't know the exact number to go off of. Oh wait we have 1 unit that we can go off of, I-N-C-E-P-O-T-R-S. Because we know their points cost AND we know they have no options other then what they have. We know the PL is based on the points cost of "half upgrades" So the PL is going to be Points/20, or around that I took the most extreme case 7.5 PL for Rubrics 8.4 for Inceptors. which leaves only a 19 point gap. Even at 22 points its only a 20 point gap. Aspiring Sorcerers get 1 spell Pseudo Smite that's it. So the Spells aren't doing it. Rhino will cost between 30 and 50 points probably, 40 on average. So the Icon of Flame would have to near double the effect of their ranged capabilities, 30-40 points, 35 on average, 75 points total on average, 75-160 = 85 would be the base cost of a Unit of Rubric Marines Stock, 10 points more then Tac Marines.

We also have the full rules, power level and point costs of the intercessors, the primaris captain and the hellblasters-who I've based the calculations at.
Somehow you managed to ignore the fact that I said "4 units" and claim there is one without even looking at my original power that details the 4 known units.

Your entire post has no root in reality, as it ignores multiple know factors-as in 3 entire unit's worth of known PL and point costs, of the three, the intercessors sorta fits the PL=20 points mold, the other two very much does not and display the same 25% value disparity I have noted.

Honestly, how on earth you qoute-reply to me while your reply obviously did not include reading what I wrote and asking yourself where I am getting my numbers (that you seem unfamiliar with) is beyond me.

**Thousand-Son-Sorcerer**

Darkagl1 wrote:
This thread is silly. Here's something to consider. Rubrics get to shoot the inceptors first because inceptors can't deepstrike, because if we're going to be silly enough to do this single unit comparison half your single unit army must be placed on the board. Seriously though different units have different strengths just because two have an equal power level doesn't mean that they should have an equal chance of killing each other. That logic should be easy to set as terrible. Lascannon pres and autocannon pres have the same power level since they're the same tank but I'm pretty sure one is heavily favored in that fight.

You realize that Inceptors have a 10" move and will be able to maneuver so that they get first shot right? After 2 rounds of shooting the Rubrics have lost 2.5 wounds if the Inceptors charge they lose another .5 plus .7 for attacks puts them at 3.7 high enough to call it 4 leaving just the Aspiring Sorcerer which will do 1.4 wounds in combat finishing off 1 and putting 1 wound on another. Inceptors Fall Back and fire 12 rounds into the Sorc killing him.

**Thousand-Son-Sorcerer**

BoomWolf wrote:
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
BoomWolf wrote:
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I think you're overreacting without seeing the entire game or the matched points. Power levels seem very coarse. Personally, I fear the 1K sons more at this point because of their save mods.

Now looking at PL we have something good with the rules leak. We know Inceptors are a single 3 man unit that has two weapons and we know they are going to cost around 160 points. which means PL is probably Points/20. Its super easy to do and they don't have to come up with a system. Lets assume the PL gap is as big as possible. 7.5 for Rubrics, and 8.4 for Inceptors, rounded up and down respectively. even then you end up with only an 18 point difference. So if you keep the prices reasonable, add a Rhino 40 points, add an Icon which is going to almost double ranged capabilities which is unreasonable in general but keeping something like that to only 40 points, the base cost of Rubrics would be around 60-80 points, which is wholly unreasonable.

Have you somehow missed the post about PL/points ratio I did JUST LAST PAGE?

From merely 4 units that we know both PL and point cost of, we got a wide range of 16.666 to 21.143

4 units. and the edge cases are 25% apart.
And that's for units with FIXED LOADOUTS

Power level means NOTHING about the actual point value of units. at all.
Its supposed to give a rough estimate that once you pile WHOLE ARMIES around it, it sorta makes sense that the two armies are at the same ballpark

Because inceptors are effectively crisis suits, like any FSE player would know-the individual suit is rather OP for the cost/effect ratio, but as you pile them they become a burden on the army as a whole because you got too little manpower to hold ground, or to control the board.
Inceptors share the exact same issue. the more you field them, the quicker you run out of points with very actual board presence. you can alpha things, you can defiantly nuke targets of choice-but you lack staying power. you get easily blown off the table by a few bad rolls, or some well-positioned shooters you just can't reach.
The new deepstrike-without-error is a double edged sword. I honestly am not sure its better than old scatter for the user
If I place a circle of 17" inch around my defended target-you can't deepstrike, at all. while before it would have been a really safe drop. heck, I used to pull 5-inch gap drops all the time (it seems that the more balls I had, the more luck I had with scattering, its the "safe" drops that got horribly messed, while the balsy ones went perfectly)
So, I can easily force you to land as far as 30" away from the thing I'm trying to defend (counting three sets on 9" and the model size of the defenders), heck its yet another advantage of bigger model count-you can lock out more of the table from deepstrikes.

Back to the original point, the PL is vague, very much so.
Its not reflective of points, it has huge divergence even counting just within the starter set's primaris.
The Rubrics are 5 for 6 PL and 2 more to upgrade a rubric to a sorcerer, so the sorcerer alone counts for 3.2 PL of the unit. this calculated that the sorcerer can deny spells (inceptors got no equivalent skill)
Rubric PL calculates the following unknown factors: DttFE (we got a rumor, nothing solid), icon of flame (theoretically could be insane), faction spells (again, theoretically insane), etc.

Your entire analysis, and panic induced by it, is based on partial information, and a completely bs premises that PL equal points.

The PL is vague because we don't know the exact number to go off of. Oh wait we have 1 unit that we can go off of, I-N-C-E-P-O-T-R-S. Because we know their points cost AND we know they have no options other then what they have. We know the PL is based on the points cost of "half upgrades" So the PL is going to be Points/20, or around that I took the most extreme case 7.5 PL for Rubrics 8.4 for Inceptors. which leaves only a 19 point gap. Even at 22 points its only a 20 point gap. Aspiring Sorcerers get 1 spell Pseudo Smite that's it. So the Spells aren't doing it. Rhino will cost between 30 and 50 points probably, 40 on average. So the Icon of Flame would have to near double the effect of their ranged capabilities, 30-40 points, 35 on average, 75 points total on average, 75-160 = 85 would be the base cost of a Unit of Rubric Marines Stock, 10 points more then Tac Marines.

We also have the full rules, power level and point costs of the intercessors, the primaris captain and the hellblasters-who I've based the calculations at.
Somehow you managed to ignore the fact that I said "4 units" and claim there is one without even looking at my original power that details the 4 known units.

Your entire post has no root in reality, as it ignores multiple know factors-as in 3 entire unit's worth of known PL and point costs, of the three, the intercessors sorta fits the PL=20 points mold, the other two very much does not and display the same 25% value disparity I have noted.

Honestly, how on earth you qoute-reply to me while your reply obviously did not include reading what I wrote and asking yourself where I am getting my numbers (that you seem unfamiliar with) is beyond me.

What are the point costs for the all the upgrades for those other three units?

**BoomWolf**

BoomWolf wrote:
Yaknow, this whole argument here is totally moot even before you THINK about the fact that we don't know for sure what DttFE does, or what icon of flame does, or the fact rubrics can deny spells and inceptors cant, or that we got faction-spesific spells we KNOW exist, and could make the asp sorcerer that much more potent.

You know why?
Because power level is a really, REALLY vague estimate of power, and nothing to be taken seriously in any competitive level, or in any way indicate point costs.

Lets run a shot analysis of units of give power levels and known costs-shall we? (I'm taking some of it directly off a post I made in another forum)

The inceptors cost 53 each, so a team is 159.
Divide by 8, you got 19.875 points per power level.
The intercessors are 24 points each, so 120 a team-and power level 6. so they are 20 points per power level. pretty close.

Other known factor, the hellblasters, 40 each power level 12. so we hit 16.666 point per power level.
That's...a bit off. like, 15% off.
It seems like 1 power level=roughly 16-20 points? seems about right?

The captain though, power level 7 and costs 148, so that's 21.143 points per power level.
So, a PL is worth somewhere between 16.666 and 21.143?
So...power level and points so not translate all that easily. we got a huge divergance in PL to point ratio, and we were just looking at a handful of units from one very specific line.
we got 4.46 points-per-power-level difference between our highest and our lowest example-and these might not be the biggest edge cases, because once more we only saw Numarines, and only some of them to boot.

Its a VERY rough outline, one that should never be used to compare units if you know your stuff. 4.46 difference between current edge cases, rounding down to 4 means the rubric squad might cost 127 while half- equipped, and still be within power level logic.
So, 127 points might be the same 8 PL as 159 points, despite 148 points being lower 7 PL, and 120 being 6 PL.

Get what I'm going at?
The power level is wonky. its really rough, and it only scales properly in saying the ARMIES are roughly the same scale, and useless for individual units.

And to top it off-we have yet to actually seen mission rules.
If "only troops score" returns, that would skyrocker the estimated PL of every troop unit, and unlike inceptors, rubrics are troops.

Do I really need to quote MYSELF?
Is looking a single page back (as instructed) that hard?

All the known primaris units so far have a fixed loadout-no options to consider.

Hell, the point costs and the dataslates of these units came from the same source at the same time as the inceptors did. if that's not deliberate ignorance, I don't know what is.