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JNAProductions wrote: The issue isn't so much that Inceptors will beat Rubrics in a shoot out. In fact, assuming Rubrics start in rapid fire range, they win. (With few survivors, but hey.)
The issue is Inceptors are VASTLY superior at taking out pretty much anything else. MEQs, TEQs, GEQs, Dreadnoughts, Russes...
Which is completely appropriate. The new iteration of Thousand Sons gets most of its heavy lifting accomplished in the psychic phase. Aside from the usual Seer's Bane sorc, chopping up hapless chumps in CC. The shooting phase is their weakest phase. Everyone reading this thread needs to understand that (especially OP who should know better).
If you're comparing a Battalion to a Spearhead detachment, there's also a difference of +3 to +1 CP. That may be pivotal if you can reroll things like Psychic Tests, which are natural strategems for TS to gravitate towards. You might inflict D6 mortal wounds rather than have a HQ explode and take half a squad with him.
OP is also apparently unaware that Tzaangors and Cultists are also troop choices. It's not "just Rubrics".
ClockworkZion wrote: I need to correct a math error from earlier: Inceotors are 54 points with guns. That means they are more than double the cost of a Rubric with an Inferno Bolter.
Big difference looking at it like points where we get 6 Rubrics vs 3 Inceptors versus power were we,re looking at 6 Rubrics+Sorc+1/2 cost full wargear loadout
Vs 3 Inceptors.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I mean when your one dude cost as much as two of my dudes, it,s a bit more reasonable for them to be basically twice as good.
Yeah thats fine now find the upgrade that puts the Rubrics even close to on par with Inceptors. Rhinos cant be included since they arent an upgrade. Your options are flamers, icon, and DttFE. Flamers are NOT good in any way. Right now flamers cost 4 ppm which is 8 to 10 points DttFE is going to be marginial as far as i can tell which means the icon is going cost 30 points at a least and double thier ranged capabilities and slightly increase thier durability.
You're not getting it yet: it doesn't matter what those upgrades do, or even if you can legally take them. What matters is you paid anyways for them and that pushes your power rating up. Hell the Sorc by himself was likely 1-1.5 and the upgrades were likely another .5-1PL for a total of 2PL over the cost of basic Rubrics.
So that's my point: the cost of a unit in power for a unit that is paying for upgrades will be weaker than an equivilant unit in power that doesn,t have any options.
So you are comparing a unit that is working in a more optimal range for its targeting as I laid out earlier against a unit that is not in its optimal range.
multi wound weapons are much more effective against primaris per point than against rubrics. More damaging weapons are more effective against primaris per point.
Whereas they are much worse against rubrics per shot. Rubrics will be troops and who knows if troops will have something special.
Honestly I am still not seeing this huge disparity. They have different targets, different strengths, and different weaknesses.
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
You need Rhinos to run MSU Rubrics. They are one of the squishiest units in the game. If you want to footslog, run a bigger unit and back them up with psychic defense. This is not a balance issue. This is a terrible way to field the unit!
You need Rhinos to run MSU Rubrics. They are one of the squishiest units in the game. If you want to footslog, run a bigger unit and back them up with psychic defense. This is not a balance issue. This is a terrible way to field the unit!
Rhinos cost power and are an external unit to the Rubrics...
You need Rhinos to run MSU Rubrics. They are one of the squishiest units in the game. If you want to footslog, run a bigger unit and back them up with psychic defense. This is not a balance issue. This is a terrible way to field the unit!
Rhinos cost power and are an external unit to the Rubrics...
Fine so you compare two units of interceptors to a unit of 10 rubrics and a rhino......So its almost like you can spend points to mitigate a units weaknesses........who would have thunk it.
Seriously anything in a vacuum is not really going to do it. Honestly I bet once we see the inceptors will have more gun options and their baseline power will be higher instead of the basically exactly 20 points per power it is now.
Anyway,
Lascannon hit kills .55 Primaris inceptors
Lascannon hit kills .5 rubrics - So if rubrics are even half the points of an interceptor then it is much better against lascannons.
Either way we can guess that a sorcerer costs about 40 points more base than a regular rubric marine. Honestly I cant see a rubric being more than 20 points each, probably closer to 18 each.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/05/29 02:05:17
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
JNAProductions wrote: Tell me, what exactly do you THINK the banner will do? Because it'd have to outright double the power of Rubrics to make them on par.
And if that's really how power level works... It's crap. Plain and simple.
I don,t know and that wasn't the point. The point was that the 8 power assumes you have it and makes you pay for it. Just like it makes you pay for the Soulreaper you can't use at start.
There are costs bundled into that power that make the scales unbalanced in terms of options. A unit with no options is going to have a lower power because it has not additional costs to factor in.
No because it unlocks at 10 models and that is PL 14 not 8 they are charging you for the reaper cannon in the second set of 5 Rubrics.
Another thing that's likely is that I don't think Smite is the only spell that psyker is going to know. While other spells weren't listed on the previewed datasheet, there is likely to be a faction-wide thing that basically says "All psykers in this faction can pick one of these powers for each Mastery Level they have".
After all, in 7th a Sorcerer can use Biomancy, Pyromancy, and Telepathy, plus they get a bonus spell if they have a Mark.
So that Sorcerer is probably stronger than he looks.
JNAProductions wrote: Tell me, what exactly do you THINK the banner will do? Because it'd have to outright double the power of Rubrics to make them on par.
And if that's really how power level works... It's crap. Plain and simple.
I don,t know and that wasn't the point. The point was that the 8 power assumes you have it and makes you pay for it. Just like it makes you pay for the Soulreaper you can't use at start.
There are costs bundled into that power that make the scales unbalanced in terms of options. A unit with no options is going to have a lower power because it has not additional costs to factor in.
No because it unlocks at 10 models and that is PL 14 not 8 they are charging you for the reaper cannon in the second set of 5 Rubrics.
Go read how they worked out PLs again. If it was at the cost of the upgrade from 5-10 them it'd cost less than 12 to get to 15 models and less than 18 to get to 20 models. The cost is factored into the base unit.
Leth wrote: So you are comparing a unit that is working in a more optimal range for its targeting as I laid out earlier against a unit that is not in its optimal range.
Even in optimal Inceptors are better by a large margin. They are better vs just about every unit except T 10 and T 3 they put out any where from 2x to 4x the bullets at higher S.
Leth wrote: multi wound weapons are much more effective against primaris per point than against rubrics. More damaging weapons are more effective against primaris per point.Whereas they are much worse against rubrics per shot
No they aren't they are about a wash. With Rubrics being slightly better off in the High S are and Inceptors being slightly better off in the low S area. Because the difference in T remains but the Bonus armor is lost
Leth wrote: Rubrics will be troops and who knows if troops will have something special.
They have already said no difference.
Leth wrote: Honestly I am still not seeing this huge disparity. They have different targets, different strengths, and different weaknesses
Because you refuse to look at anything that proves you wrong.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ross-128 wrote: Another thing that's likely is that I don't think Smite is the only spell that psyker is going to know. While other spells weren't listed on the previewed datasheet, there is likely to be a faction-wide thing that basically says "All psykers in this faction can pick one of these powers for each Mastery Level they have".
After all, in 7th a Sorcerer can use Biomancy, Pyromancy, and Telepathy, plus they get a bonus spell if they have a Mark.
So that Sorcerer is probably stronger than he looks.
The psyker only knows smite it would say otherwise in the data sheet.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/29 02:09:30
Would it though? After all, the Thousand Sons entry in the current codex doesn't say anything about the Sorcerer being able to learn spells at all. You have to go to an entirely separate Sorcerer entry several pages earlier to find out which spells your Sorcerer can learn. GW has quite a habit of doing stuff like that, one that they clearly haven't broken considering how the datasheet doesn't even tell us what Death to the False Emperor does, and the Primaris Marines' datasheets don't tell us what ATSKNF does.
Though if we just decide to run with your preconceived notion that Rubrics are garbage, then we could just have a pity-party olympics instead.
So let's just uncritically accept the idea that Rubrics are hopelessly outclassed. Well, Martel over there insists that Tacticals are hopelessly outclassed compared to Rubrics. Seeing as how they don't have any AP on their boltguns, they don't get +1 saves against small arms, and they don't come with a psyker, I suppose I can see that. Well, earlier in the thread I also "proved" using the same approach you did that Guardsmen are entirely outclassed by Tacticals, which by extension means they are outclassed by Rubrics and Inceptors too.
So the Imperial Guard wins the pity-party olympics. Questioning the results is heresy. Heresy is punishable by death.
You need Rhinos to run MSU Rubrics. They are one of the squishiest units in the game. If you want to footslog, run a bigger unit and back them up with psychic defense. This is not a balance issue. This is a terrible way to field the unit!
Rhinos are not an optional upgrade for the rubrics it will add 2 PL to the whole unit. If that upgrade is not on the data sheet then its not calculated in. Its not unreasonable. By adding the Rhino you would be looming at PL10.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ross-128 wrote: Would it though? After all, the Thousand Sons entry in the current codex doesn't say anything about the Sorcerer being able to learn spells at all. You have to go to an entirely separate Sorcerer entry several pages earlier to find out which spells your Sorcerer can learn. GW has quite a habit of doing stuff like that, one that they clearly haven't broken considering how the datasheet doesn't even tell us what Death to the False Emperor does, and the Primaris Marines' datasheets don't tell us what ATSKNF does.
Though if we just decide to run with your preconceived notion that Rubrics are garbage, then we could just have a pity-party olympics instead.
So let's just uncritically accept the idea that Rubrics are hopelessly outclassed. Well, Martel over there insists that Tacticals are hopelessly outclassed compared to Rubrics. Seeing as how they don't have any AP on their boltguns, they don't get +1 saves against small arms, and they don't come with a psyker, I suppose I can see that. Well, earlier in the thread I also "proved" using the same approach you did that Guardsmen are entirely outclassed by Tacticals, which by extension means they are outclassed by Rubrics and Inceptors too.
So the Imperial Guard wins the pity-party olympics. Questioning the results is heresy. Heresy is punishable by death.
Yes it would they specifically say if a psyker can cast another spell it will say on the data sheet. Ita actually in the article with the Rubric Datasheet.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/29 02:27:36
JNAProductions wrote: Tell me, what exactly do you THINK the banner will do? Because it'd have to outright double the power of Rubrics to make them on par.
And if that's really how power level works... It's crap. Plain and simple.
It'll probably do rerolling of wounds of some kind or a new version of Soul Blaze. Not too bad for getting units in cover.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
So your basically saying that a unit that on on ever runs on its own is sub-optimal compared to a unit that is designed to operate on its own? Also you are comparing a unit that pays more upfront for a unit upgrade that is going to cost less power the more models you add to it. It is cheaper to get a larger unit for rubrics than it is to get more interceptors. Over time their inante durability will win out the more models they add. Same with the per-power damage output goes up with larger units.
You also completely ignore the survivability aspect, even factoring in the increased toughness. Multi wound weapons are going to be quite common. Here the thousand sons will be much more survivable.
So yes, in a vacuum you are correct when we limit the scenarios and limit the discussion to the EXACT base 8 power unit of thousands sons it is worse than an 8 power unit of interceptors.
Congrats, that means nothing unless we are playing a game where we are only using 8 power for our entire list.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/05/29 03:09:18
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
You need Rhinos to run MSU Rubrics. They are one of the squishiest units in the game. If you want to footslog, run a bigger unit and back them up with psychic defense. This is not a balance issue. This is a terrible way to field the unit!
Rhinos cost power and are an external unit to the Rubrics...
Fine so you compare two units of interceptors to a unit of 10 rubrics and a rhino......So its almost like you can spend points to mitigate a units weaknesses........who would have thunk it.
Seriously anything in a vacuum is not really going to do it. Honestly I bet once we see the inceptors will have more gun options and their baseline power will be higher instead of the basically exactly 20 points per power it is now.
Anyway,
Lascannon hit kills .55 Primaris inceptors
Lascannon hit kills .5 rubrics - So if rubrics are even half the points of an interceptor then it is much better against lascannons.
Either way we can guess that a sorcerer costs about 40 points more base than a regular rubric marine. Honestly I cant see a rubric being more than 20 points each, probably closer to 18 each.
Fine 36 Heavy Bolter shots later you have a dead rhino lose 1.6 wounds in the explosion. You take out 1 guy and put 1 wound on another guy. You then lose 3.1 more models then the two units charge you overwatch do .3 wounds for over watch Inceptors do .825 wouds so another guy lost. Plus another .6 which means a total of 6 wounds lost. Rubrics have to choose if they are going to stay in combat or fallback. If they fallback they cant shoot. If they stay in cc they do.5 wounds a turn. It dosemt matter what you do because inceptors can fallback and still shoot. So on inceptors turn I fall back and shoot you down to 1 guy. You might kill 1 more guy with psy power charging in and attacking.
How are you getting a dead rhino from 36 heavy bolter shots?
24 hits, 8 wounds, probably a 4+ save after rend. So that's 4 wounds... you think a rhino will only have 4 wounds or will be T5?
And if they are within 18 then the rubrics will be able to advance into rapid fire range.
So no dead rhino, rubrics disembark cannon does one wound, smite does one wound. 8 rubrics fire dealing about 4.74 wounds. That is one dead interceptor squad and that is before even trying to charge.
Also falling back from combat is done in your movement phase so that would be their move getting them up to 10 inches away.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/29 03:24:55
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
Leth wrote: So your basically saying that a unit that on on ever runs on its own is sub-optimal compared to a unit that is designed to operate on its own? Also you are comparing a unit that pays more upfront for a unit upgrade that is going to cost less power the more models you add to it. It is cheaper to get a larger unit for rubrics than it is to get more interceptors. Over time their inante durability will win out the more models they add. Same with the per-power damage output goes up with larger units.
You also completely ignore the survivability aspect, even factoring in the increased toughness. Multi wound weapons are going to be quite common. Here the thousand sons will be much more survivable.
So yes, in a vacuum you are correct when we limit the scenarios and limit the discussion to the EXACT base 8 power unit of thousands sons it is worse than an 8 power unit of interceptors.
Congrats, that means nothing unless we are playing a game where we are only using 8 power for our entire list.
The numbers have already been gone over there is little difference between the durability of the units. Rubrics lose thier armor bonus to multidamage weapons, while Inceptors retain the benefit of increased T.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Leth wrote: How are you getting a dead rhino from 36 heavy bolter shots?
24 hits, 8 wounds, probably a 4+ save after rend. So that's 4 wounds... you think a rhino will only have 4 wounds or will be T5?
I think for 40 points yeah it better. You dont get super durability for 40 points you get whata current Rhino has which goes down to 36 heavy bolter shots.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/29 03:21:49
Leth wrote: So your basically saying that a unit that on on ever runs on its own is sub-optimal compared to a unit that is designed to operate on its own? Also you are comparing a unit that pays more upfront for a unit upgrade that is going to cost less power the more models you add to it. It is cheaper to get a larger unit for rubrics than it is to get more interceptors. Over time their inante durability will win out the more models they add. Same with the per-power damage output goes up with larger units.
You also completely ignore the survivability aspect, even factoring in the increased toughness. Multi wound weapons are going to be quite common. Here the thousand sons will be much more survivable.
So yes, in a vacuum you are correct when we limit the scenarios and limit the discussion to the EXACT base 8 power unit of thousands sons it is worse than an 8 power unit of interceptors.
Congrats, that means nothing unless we are playing a game where we are only using 8 power for our entire list.
The numbers have already been gone over there is little difference between the durability of the units. Rubrics lose thier armor bonus to multidamage weapons, while Inceptors retain the benefit of increased T.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Leth wrote: How are you getting a dead rhino from 36 heavy bolter shots?
24 hits, 8 wounds, probably a 4+ save after rend. So that's 4 wounds... you think a rhino will only have 4 wounds or will be T5?
I think for 40 points yeah it better. You dont get super durability for 40 points you get whata current Rhino has which goes down to 36 heavy bolter shots.
Yeah, except that you are completely ignoring that most multi damage weapons will also have rend scores that will negate the primaries armor but the sons still get a save. Also each thousand son is about 1.16 power. Each interceptor is 2.33. So yes the thousand sons are much more durable against a wide range of weapons than the interceptors. I posted the math earlier against a wide variety of weapon types and just decided to ignore it because you only care about this one unit shooting against this other unit.
As we have seen they have specifically tried to make all vehicles more durable outside of super heavies. So yes I expect them to be more durable now.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/05/29 03:34:18
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
Leth wrote: So your basically saying that a unit that on on ever runs on its own is sub-optimal compared to a unit that is designed to operate on its own? Also you are comparing a unit that pays more upfront for a unit upgrade that is going to cost less power the more models you add to it. It is cheaper to get a larger unit for rubrics than it is to get more interceptors. Over time their inante durability will win out the more models they add. Same with the per-power damage output goes up with larger units.
You also completely ignore the survivability aspect, even factoring in the increased toughness. Multi wound weapons are going to be quite common. Here the thousand sons will be much more survivable.
So yes, in a vacuum you are correct when we limit the scenarios and limit the discussion to the EXACT base 8 power unit of thousands sons it is worse than an 8 power unit of interceptors.
Congrats, that means nothing unless we are playing a game where we are only using 8 power for our entire list.
The numbers have already been gone over there is little difference between the durability of the units. Rubrics lose thier armor bonus to multidamage weapons, while Inceptors retain the benefit of increased T.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Leth wrote: How are you getting a dead rhino from 36 heavy bolter shots?
24 hits, 8 wounds, probably a 4+ save after rend. So that's 4 wounds... you think a rhino will only have 4 wounds or will be T5?
I think for 40 points yeah it better. You dont get super durability for 40 points you get whata current Rhino has which goes down to 36 heavy bolter shots.
Yeah, except that you are completely ignoring that most multi damage weapons will also have rend scores that will negate the primaries armor but the sons still get a save. Also each thousand son is about 1.16 power. Each interceptor is 2.33. So yes the thousand sons are much more durable against a wide range of weapons than the interceptors. I posted the math earlier against a wide variety of weapon types and just decided to ignore it because you only care about this one unit shooting against this other unit.
As we have seen they have specifically tried to make all vehicles more durable outside of super heavies. So yes I expect them to be more durable now.
The rend only makes a difference at -3 rend...not common but cover can help with that. -4 rend is where the noticible difference would be and guess what happens. T ends up cutting that down.
Okay do you think they are going to just up the durability without upping the cost?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/29 03:37:21
Leth wrote: So your basically saying that a unit that on on ever runs on its own is sub-optimal compared to a unit that is designed to operate on its own? Also you are comparing a unit that pays more upfront for a unit upgrade that is going to cost less power the more models you add to it. It is cheaper to get a larger unit for rubrics than it is to get more interceptors. Over time their inante durability will win out the more models they add. Same with the per-power damage output goes up with larger units.
You also completely ignore the survivability aspect, even factoring in the increased toughness. Multi wound weapons are going to be quite common. Here the thousand sons will be much more survivable.
So yes, in a vacuum you are correct when we limit the scenarios and limit the discussion to the EXACT base 8 power unit of thousands sons it is worse than an 8 power unit of interceptors.
Congrats, that means nothing unless we are playing a game where we are only using 8 power for our entire list.
The numbers have already been gone over there is little difference between the durability of the units. Rubrics lose thier armor bonus to multidamage weapons, while Inceptors retain the benefit of increased T.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Leth wrote: How are you getting a dead rhino from 36 heavy bolter shots?
24 hits, 8 wounds, probably a 4+ save after rend. So that's 4 wounds... you think a rhino will only have 4 wounds or will be T5?
I think for 40 points yeah it better. You dont get super durability for 40 points you get whata current Rhino has which goes down to 36 heavy bolter shots.
Yeah, except that you are completely ignoring that most multi damage weapons will also have rend scores that will negate the primaries armor but the sons still get a save. Also each thousand son is about 1.16 power. Each interceptor is 2.33. So yes the thousand sons are much more durable against a wide range of weapons than the interceptors. I posted the math earlier against a wide variety of weapon types and just decided to ignore it because you only care about this one unit shooting against this other unit.
As we have seen they have specifically tried to make all vehicles more durable outside of super heavies. So yes I expect them to be more durable now.
The rend only makes a difference at -3 rend...not common but cover can help with that. -4 rend is where the noticible difference would be and guess what happens. T ends up cutting that down.
Okay do you think they are going to just up the durability without upping the cost?
]
Yeah except most things that are multi damage and -3 or 4 rend are going to be above str 5. There are plenty that are str 6, and 7. For example all plasma weapons..............so the bonus toughness does not matter in those situations. Also thousand sons most likely have a 4+ invul save considering that is what most tzeetch models get. So it makes a difference at -2 rend. T only matters in this case at str 4, 5, 8, and 9. For everything else they are the same rolls. However rend makes a difference on every model whose armor save is better than a 6+.
Also yes, yes they most likely will keep the cost about the same. They are improving the durability because they were not durable enough for their points.
So a plasma gun is more likely to kill a interceptor than a rubric marine even though the rubric marine costs half as much.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/05/29 03:58:01
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
Leth wrote: So your basically saying that a unit that on on ever runs on its own is sub-optimal compared to a unit that is designed to operate on its own? Also you are comparing a unit that pays more upfront for a unit upgrade that is going to cost less power the more models you add to it. It is cheaper to get a larger unit for rubrics than it is to get more interceptors. Over time their inante durability will win out the more models they add. Same with the per-power damage output goes up with larger units.
You also completely ignore the survivability aspect, even factoring in the increased toughness. Multi wound weapons are going to be quite common. Here the thousand sons will be much more survivable.
So yes, in a vacuum you are correct when we limit the scenarios and limit the discussion to the EXACT base 8 power unit of thousands sons it is worse than an 8 power unit of interceptors.
Congrats, that means nothing unless we are playing a game where we are only using 8 power for our entire list.
The numbers have already been gone over there is little difference between the durability of the units. Rubrics lose thier armor bonus to multidamage weapons, while Inceptors retain the benefit of increased T.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Leth wrote: How are you getting a dead rhino from 36 heavy bolter shots?
24 hits, 8 wounds, probably a 4+ save after rend. So that's 4 wounds... you think a rhino will only have 4 wounds or will be T5?
I think for 40 points yeah it better. You dont get super durability for 40 points you get whata current Rhino has which goes down to 36 heavy bolter shots.
Yeah, except that you are completely ignoring that most multi damage weapons will also have rend scores that will negate the primaries armor but the sons still get a save. Also each thousand son is about 1.16 power. Each interceptor is 2.33. So yes the thousand sons are much more durable against a wide range of weapons than the interceptors. I posted the math earlier against a wide variety of weapon types and just decided to ignore it because you only care about this one unit shooting against this other unit.
As we have seen they have specifically tried to make all vehicles more durable outside of super heavies. So yes I expect them to be more durable now.
The rend only makes a difference at -3 rend...not common but cover can help with that. -4 rend is where the noticible difference would be and guess what happens. T ends up cutting that down.
Okay do you think they are going to just up the durability without upping the cost?
]
Yeah except most things that are multi damage and -3 or 4 rend are going to be above str 5. There are plenty that are str 6, and 7. For example all plasma weapons..............so the bonus toughness does not matter in those situations. Also thousand sons most likely have a 4+ invul save considering that is what most tzeetch models get. So it makes a difference at -2 rend. T only matters in this case at str 4, 5, 8, and 9. For everything else they are the same rolls. However rend makes a difference on every model whose armor save is better than a 6+.
Also yes, yes they most likely will keep the cost about the same. They are improving the durability because they were not durable enough for their points.
So a plasma gun is more likely to kill a interceptor than a rubric marine even though the rubric marine costs half as much.
There is no reason to think Rubrics will have a 4+ save unless the Icon gives it to them. In which case they are still almost worthless from an offensive stand point.
No they will probably increase the points cost at least some Rhinos were dirt cheap, having 10 Rhinos on the board are would be a nightmare to deal with. They want transports to be a more reliable investment.
Fine 1 weapon is better at killing Inceptors there fore Rubrics are vastly more durable in every way.
Rubrics withstand Melta, Plasma and generally anything that would reduce them to a 6+ better because their Invule kicks in at a 5+ while the Inceptors go to a 6+ or worse.
That,s not just one weapon, that,s a whole family of weapons. You know, the same ones people generally used to negate low number saves in the past?
I wonder if the Land Raider is improved enough to be viable.
Delivering a bunch of Warpflamer Rubrics into close range and then getting stuck into CC at full strength is probably better than plinking away with their bolters.
Yoyoyo wrote: Also anything that's Rending (-4 on a roll of 6).
Rubrics might get some added durability from Stratagems or HQ bonuses, but they're already on a 4+ invul as long as "All is Dust" is active.
All is dust is armor not invul
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Yoyoyo wrote: I wonder if the Land Raider is improved enough to be viable.
Delivering a bunch of Warpflamer Rubrics into close range and then getting stuck into CC at full strength is probably better than plinking away with their bolters.
With twinlinked doubling shots it should be and it will probably have a higher number of wounds then a Leman Russ
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ClockworkZion wrote: Rubrics withstand Melta, Plasma and generally anything that would reduce them to a 6+ better because their Invule kicks in at a 5+ while the Inceptors go to a 6+ or worse.
That,s not just one weapon, that,s a whole family of weapons. You know, the same ones people generally used to negate low number saves in the past?
Yes and those are going to be at a 1 to 5 ratio to the weapons that they have an advantage on. S4 and S5 which are the most common S in the game by far.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/29 05:27:47
They are better at killing just about everything except T10+ not at all ranges TS are better in the 19-24 bracket although you wouldn't be able to tell since they almost never kill anything. Because Earth127's math is fething abysmal he got 1 MEQ killed by a unit shooting 18 S 5 AP -1 shots as best I can tell he made up numbers cause he thinks I did the same or has no idea what he is doing.
That Inceptors have 2x the shooting and speed, have better deployment options, for the same or near the same price. No one is saying all Rubrics and all Inceptors.
Player decisions (judgement and decision making) would be based on skill and knowledge of the player which is supposed to be the determining factor. Scenario goal can be swapped between armies so you can't point to that as a balance tool. Opponent's force is supposed to be balanced via metrics (PL and points). Anything other then skill and knowledge should be minimized. The fact that income plays a role in how well your army will preform is by far one of the most annoying part of the balance.
Firstly, could you please stop demanding your opponents refrain from ad hominem attacks while you're doing the same thing? You're shifting goalposts in tone, and the point that some are making is that you've also shifted goalposts in content.
Let's try this again:
Your assertion seems to be that a PL8 unit must be equivalent, or at least close, to every other PL8 unit, but that's patently not the nature of 'balanced' competitive miniatures gaming. If I bring 8PL of Fire Dragons and the other guy happens to be running a horde of conscripts, that's not a strike on Fire Dragons, and if the other guy happened to bring a list of Twin-Flamer Crisis suits, it's not a strike on Crisis Suits that Fire Dragons are going to chew them up and spit them out. Note that I use these examples mainy because they're pretty simple one-dimensional archetypes - specialist AT, cheap bodycount, and specialist crowd-control.
So yeah, again, it may well be true that a PL8 Inceptor squad is going to maul a PL8 Ksons squad, but that'll only happen half the time since the other half of the time the KSons will dictate engagement on this featureless plain you're playing on (because table layout, turn order, deployment strategies, LOS, etc. etc. are all "context") since you have to half your units start on-table, and of the 50% of your Inceptors that deep strike, only ~42% of the time will they roll an 8+ to engage. But regardless, it doesn't tell us anything of value, because it's trivially true that there are going to be units that trump other units, and part of list-building and on-table play is figuring out how to apply your your rocks to the other chap's scissors and how to stop his scissors from getting your papers.
As to Earth127's maths error - he's made one and he's owned up to it - have you applied a similar principle whereby one mathematical error in your work thusly invalidates every single claim you've made?
You are the very person who said you wanted to keep things simple, which is why there's all this harping on about solely Inceptors and Ksons. Everything else is, in your own OP, "context", and apparently because it's "context" it's not worthy of discussion. But that's just no-true-scotsmanning your way out of critique.
None of that is to say I think GW has necessarily done a great job on both PL and points costs. Heck, I don't really think there's any utility to the Power Level system that isn't just served better by points or by not counting points at all. If I want to aim for balance, I want more granularity, and if I want to just wing it via eyeballing, I can do that myself and try out the scenario a couple of times and adjust it. I also am aware - as no doubt we all are - that GW doesn't exactly have the best track record amongst miniatures gaming rules producers when it comes to balance (not that there's any company that's particularly great at it, but there are ones that have a less bad history).
But the assertion that Inceptors are better at deleting models isn't a particularly insightful statement, especially when you've repeatedly dug in your heels over the idea that you're the final arbiter in terms of what contextual information is to be taken into account. Unit deletion isn't the sole-and-only measure of utility a game piece has, and in this specific case you've set up an ideal scenario for the Inceptors, and repeatedly insisted on pretending that you haven't stacked the question to pre-determine your outcome (which, to reiterate, doesn't really carry much weight, since different units are, well, different).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/29 05:32:45
