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 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Fine 1 weapon is better at killing Inceptors there fore Rubrics are vastly more durable in every way.

Alright then you want to dance this dance, lets dance. First is wounds rubrics take from one hit of a weapon with that profile, second is wounds interceptors take. Not controlling for points at all.

Str 3 - 1 damage
-0 .06 to .11
-1 .11 to .167
-2 .167 to .222
-3 .167 to .278
-4 .167 to .333

Str 3 Multi damage (d3)
-0 .11 .19
-1 .17 .28
-2 .22 .37
-3 .22 .46
-4 .22 .56

Str 4 1 damage
-0 .08 to .11
-1 .17 to .17
-2 .25 to .22
-3 .25 to .28
-4 .25 to .33

Str 4 Multi damage (d3)
-0 .17 .19
-1 .22 .28
-2 .67 .37
-3 .67 .46
-4 .67 .56

Str 5 1 damage
-0 .11 .17
-1 .22 .25
-2 .33 .33
-3 .33 .41
-4 .33 .50

Str 5 multi damage(d3)
-0 .22 .28
-1 .33 .42
-2 .44 .55
-3 .44 .69
-4 .44 .84

Str 6/7 1 damage
-0 .11 .22
-1 .22 .33
-2 .33 .44
-3 .33 .55
-4 .33 .66

Str 6/7 multi damage(d3)
-0 .22 .38
-1 .33 .55
-2 .44 .73
-3 .44 .92
-4 .44 1.1

Str 8/9 damage 1
-0 .14 .22
-1 .27 .33
-2 .42 .44
-3 .42 .55
-4 .42 .66

Str 8/9 multi damage(d3)
-0 .14 .38
-1 .27 .55
-2 .42 .73
-3 .42 .92
-4 .42 1.1

Yeah, thousand sons are more durable against almost every stat weapon that is not str 4. However these calculations are just amount of damage in wounds they can expect to take, this does not factor in power or points at all. Once you factor in that the interceptor costs twice as much as a rubric marine there is no weapon that is better against marines than rubrics. So yea, they are WAY MORE DURABLE than the interceptors.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Rhinos cant be included since they arent an upgrade.

Are you serious?

You need Rhinos to run MSU Rubrics. They are one of the squishiest units in the game. If you want to footslog, run a bigger unit and back them up with psychic defense. This is not a balance issue. This is a terrible way to field the unit!

Rhinos cost power and are an external unit to the Rubrics...

And somebody still believes you can look at one unit in vacuum without others?

Tell you what. You show tournament that will have 8 power points/1 unit max armies with preset deployment/terrain. Then you can look at one unit vs one unit in vacuum.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

There I fixed it for you, Hellblasters are PL 10 you need to take the points cost and divide by 20 and see how close you get to the power level to see how accurate it is. Even if you dont you have 20 and 21 as a variance. Still pretty fething solid.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/05/40k-8th-starter-box-datasheets.html

May I point you to the hellblaster profile? or do you need a direct image?



[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

another thing to consider is unit synergies, we've gotten a look at most of the Primaris armory, we know generally how Primaris Marines are gonna synergize, we know that Intercessor squads are going to be their basic troops (although we have no clue how they're handling transports, if at all) we know hellblaster squads will be their ranged heavy support (and, BTW, be capable of dropping a rubric squad in a turn.) we know inceptor squads will be their fast attack unit, unit that'll proably be their best anti swarn option. we know the captain will allow re-rolls on hellblasters (and we know how that'll synergize to be worth more then the sum of it's parts) etc. we don';t have a complete picture, but we have a pretty good one.

regarding 1k Sons,

we have Rubric Marines, and that is it. we don't know how Tzaangors will work, (incidently, taking a guess, they're gonna be my priority target for inceptor squads, rubric Marines I'll use my hellblasters to clear) we dunno how Scaarab occult will work, beyond what little we know about terminators, we certainly don;'t know how a exaulted sorcerer will synergize with the list.

and if you think synergism isn't important, look at pretty much all the death stars we have today, death stars in 7th are all about creating game breaking synergies. no reason to assume those won't make or break a list, more then even the individual units will in 8th.

 Leth wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Fine 1 weapon is better at killing Inceptors there fore Rubrics are vastly more durable in every way.

Alright then you want to dance this dance, lets dance. First is wounds rubrics take from one hit of a weapon with that profile, second is wounds interceptors take. Not controlling for points at all.

Str 3 - 1 damage
-0 .06 to .11
-1 .11 to .167
-2 .167 to .222
-3 .167 to .278
-4 .167 to .333

Str 3 Multi damage (d3)
-0 .11 .19
-1 .17 .28
-2 .22 .37
-3 .22 .46
-4 .22 .56

Str 4 1 damage
-0 .08 to .11
-1 .17 to .17
-2 .25 to .22
-3 .25 to .28
-4 .25 to .33

Str 4 Multi damage (d3)
-0 .17 .19
-1 .22 .28
-2 .67 .37
-3 .67 .46
-4 .67 .56

Str 5 1 damage
-0 .11 .17
-1 .22 .25
-2 .33 .33
-3 .33 .41
-4 .33 .50

Str 5 multi damage(d3)
-0 .11 .28
-1 .22 .42
-2 .33 .55
-3 .33 .69
-4 .33 .84

Str 6/7 1 damage
-0 .11 .22
-1 .22 .33
-2 .33 .44
-3 .33 .55
-4 .33 .66

Str 6/7 multi damage(d3)
-0 .11 .38
-1 .22 .55
-2 .33 .73
-3 .33 .92
-4 .33 1.1

Str 8/9 damage 1
-0 .14 .22
-1 .27 .33
-2 .42 .44
-3 .42 .55
-4 .42 .66

Str 8/9 multi damage(d3)
-0 .14 .38
-1 .27 .55
-2 .42 .73
-3 .42 .92
-4 .42 1.1

Yeah, thousand sons are more durable against almost every stat weapon that is not str 4. However these calculations are just amount of damage in wounds they can expect to take, this does not factor in power or points at all. Once you factor in that the interceptor costs twice as much as a rubric marine there is no weapon that is better against marines than rubrics. So yea, they are WAY MORE DURABLE than the interceptors.

Thats amazing Str 3 multi damage is the exact same wound rate as Str 6/7 wound rate think maybe your math is off? And when your done fixing that figure out how many shots are required to remove 5 wounds from Rubrics and 6 wounds for Inceptors. Because that 1 wound can make one hell of a differwnce as you will find out.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

There I fixed it for you, Hellblasters are PL 10 you need to take the points cost and divide by 20 and see how close you get to the power level to see how accurate it is. Even if you dont you have 20 and 21 as a variance. Still pretty fething solid.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/05/40k-8th-starter-box-datasheets.html

May I point you to the hellblaster profile? or do you need a direct image?



[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

Look at the power level icon its off center. Thats fake.

Here is the image taken from the book.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-JY_rr6SfJMQ/WSizmLnk0QI/AAAAAAABP64/YnGovnGOINATNbmDaprv5oG_Lfajz0zKQCLcB/s1600/2.jpg


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Leth wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Fine 1 weapon is better at killing Inceptors there fore Rubrics are vastly more durable in every way.

Alright then you want to dance this dance, lets dance. First is wounds rubrics take from one hit of a weapon with that profile, second is wounds interceptors take. Not controlling for points at all.

Str 3 - 1 damage
-0 .06 to .11
-1 .11 to .167
-2 .167 to .222
-3 .167 to .278
-4 .167 to .333

Str 3 Multi damage (d3)
-0 .11 .19
-1 .17 .28
-2 .22 .37
-3 .22 .46
-4 .22 .56

Str 4 1 damage
-0 .08 to .11
-1 .17 to .17
-2 .25 to .22
-3 .25 to .28
-4 .25 to .33

Str 4 Multi damage (d3)
-0 .17 .19
-1 .22 .28
-2 .67 .37
-3 .67 .46
-4 .67 .56

Str 5 1 damage
-0 .11 .17
-1 .22 .25
-2 .33 .33
-3 .33 .41
-4 .33 .50

Str 5 multi damage(d3)
-0 .11 .28
-1 .22 .42
-2 .33 .55
-3 .33 .69
-4 .33 .84

Str 6/7 1 damage
-0 .11 .22
-1 .22 .33
-2 .33 .44
-3 .33 .55
-4 .33 .66

Str 6/7 multi damage(d3)
-0 .11 .38
-1 .22 .55
-2 .33 .73
-3 .33 .92
-4 .33 1.1

Str 8/9 damage 1
-0 .14 .22
-1 .27 .33
-2 .42 .44
-3 .42 .55
-4 .42 .66

Str 8/9 multi damage(d3)
-0 .14 .38
-1 .27 .55
-2 .42 .73
-3 .42 .92
-4 .42 1.1

Yeah, thousand sons are more durable against almost every stat weapon that is not str 4. However these calculations are just amount of damage in wounds they can expect to take, this does not factor in power or points at all. Once you factor in that the interceptor costs twice as much as a rubric marine there is no weapon that is better against marines than rubrics. So yea, they are WAY MORE DURABLE than the interceptors.

Thats amazing Str 3 multi damage is the exact same wound rate as Str 6/7 wound rate think maybe your math is off? And when your done fixing that figure out how many shots are required to remove 5 wounds from Rubrics and 6 wounds for Inceptors. Because that 1 wound can make one hell of a differwnce as you will find out.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

There I fixed it for you, Hellblasters are PL 10 you need to take the points cost and divide by 20 and see how close you get to the power level to see how accurate it is. Even if you dont you have 20 and 21 as a variance. Still pretty fething solid.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/05/40k-8th-starter-box-datasheets.html

May I point you to the hellblaster profile? or do you need a direct image?



How did you say...

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

Look at the power level icon its off center. Thats fake.

Here is the image taken from the book.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-JY_rr6SfJMQ/WSizmLnk0QI/AAAAAAABP64/YnGovnGOINATNbmDaprv5oG_Lfajz0zKQCLcB/s1600/2.jpg

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

Every unit in the death armies can return models to play for simply having a banner, including the blood knight's and black knight's.

So, again, since we have no idea of what wargear does we cannot with any accuracy determine how capable a unit is without the full rules for the unit.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

There I fixed it for you, Hellblasters are PL 10 you need to take the points cost and divide by 20 and see how close you get to the power level to see how accurate it is. Even if you dont you have 20 and 21 as a variance. Still pretty fething solid.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/05/40k-8th-starter-box-datasheets.html

May I point you to the hellblaster profile? or do you need a direct image?

Spoiler:

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

Look at the power level icon its off center. Thats fake.

Just so you're aware... that's the official image from the Warhammer Community website.

Fake indeed...

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

There I fixed it for you, Hellblasters are PL 10 you need to take the points cost and divide by 20 and see how close you get to the power level to see how accurate it is. Even if you dont you have 20 and 21 as a variance. Still pretty fething solid.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/05/40k-8th-starter-box-datasheets.html

May I point you to the hellblaster profile? or do you need a direct image?

Spoiler:

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

Look at the power level icon its off center. Thats fake.

Just so you're aware... that's the official image from the Warhammer Community website.

Fake indeed...

Oh this is going to be good lol

This is a super entertaining thread. Not productive in any way. But a total hoot to keep reading.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

There I fixed it for you, Hellblasters are PL 10 you need to take the points cost and divide by 20 and see how close you get to the power level to see how accurate it is. Even if you dont you have 20 and 21 as a variance. Still pretty fething solid.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/05/40k-8th-starter-box-datasheets.html

May I point you to the hellblaster profile? or do you need a direct image?

Spoiler:

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

Look at the power level icon its off center. Thats fake.

Just so you're aware... that's the official image from the Warhammer Community website.

Fake indeed...

Oh this is going to be good lol

Yea, I literally smashed my head to the desk over this.

Apparently official publications are fake these days.



EDIT:
Oh, BTW, we got a new leak about chaos, some datasheets and the point costs of all existing units (without wargear costs)

An Aspiring Sorcerer costs 30, a Rubric costs 18 (!!!!)
So yea, a squad of a sorcerer plus 4 rubrics is 102 points.
Possibly more due to wargear actually costing points (as the price indicates wargear not included), but the lowball potential of rubrics is THAT cheap. honestly, if the base gear for them DOESNT cost points, its rather OP even.


A plauge marine is base 21, for comparison.
Abbadon-we got full rules (well, except anything triggers off keywords, and still no conformation about DttFE) at 253 points, linked to not bloat the place
http://i.imgur.com/rg74NsYg.jpg

info for your viewing:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333990-leaked-chaos-space-marine-rules/


Seems like oblits totally changed. not sure if I approve of the new form, but its a thing.

OP did we finally figure out if they get a 4+ invul yet?

We're only 12 pages in after all.

potentially relevant to the discussion, some leaked chaos stuff

http://imgur.com/a/kPLQc

1k sons Marines are 18 points a marine, with a aspiring sorc at 30 points, making a basic bare bones 1k sons unit 102 points.

making an inceptor squad 15 points more then a 1k sons squad.

weather or not thats priced right is debatable (I'd say it's about right, inceptor squads are by mathhammer not quite as good, but nearly so) but now we have a points cost

Dude, do you math?
Inceptor squads are 159 points (53 each), they are 57 points over a rubric squad, assuming rubric base gear costs no points (not assured)

Now, if that IS the final cost for "base rubrics", we will see three rubric squads per two inceptor squads, and the 1ksons will have some spare change.

Now, we haven't seen what powers TS has yet, but seeing the Dark Hereticus spells-the rubrics may not be as slow as you think. they may potentially be VERY fast if they got access to that list.
Given that the page before it says something about tzeentch-it very well may be one of the TS lists (because they just might apply to several lists, one for being heretic astrades, one for tzeentch and one for TS). if so, may the emperor have mercy on your soul, for the TS shall not.

Holly hell, Ahriman got a brutal points discount!

 BoomWolf wrote:
Dude, do you math?
Inceptor squads are 159 points (53 each), they are 57 points over a rubric squad, assuming rubric base gear costs no points (not assured)

Now, if that IS the final cost for "base rubrics", we will see three rubric squads per two inceptor squads, and the 1ksons will have some spare change.

Now, we haven't seen what powers TS has yet, but seeing the Dark Hereticus spells-the rubrics may not be as slow as you think. they may potentially be VERY fast if they got access to that list.
Given that the page before it says something about tzeentch-it very well may be one of the TS lists (because they just might apply to several lists, one for being heretic astrades, one for tzeentch and one for TS). if so, may the emperor have mercy on your soul, for the TS shall not.

I forgot the assault bolters actually, but yeah, that only makes it even more clear that the OP can now consider his concerns put to rest.

Lord Kragan wrote:
Holly hell, Ahriman got a brutal points discount!

But also brand new rules. we cannot assume he is just as powerful, for he may not be.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:
Holly hell, Ahriman got a brutal points discount!

But also brand new rules. we cannot assume he is just as powerful, for he may not be.

I've noticed that as a general rule, infantry got a bit cheaper, light vehicles (predators rhinos that sort of thing) seem to have gotten a price bump) could GW be trying to shift the focus onto infantry a bit?

BrianDavion wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:
Holly hell, Ahriman got a brutal points discount!

But also brand new rules. we cannot assume he is just as powerful, for he may not be.

I've noticed that as a general rule, infantry got a bit cheaper, light vehicles (predators rhinos that sort of thing) seem to have gotten a price bump) could GW be trying to shift the focus onto infantry a bit?

Don't think so, I think its a shift in thematics.
Infantry are more numerous, while vehicles are fewer, but more meaningful.

tneva82 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Rhinos cant be included since they arent an upgrade.

Are you serious?

You need Rhinos to run MSU Rubrics. They are one of the squishiest units in the game. If you want to footslog, run a bigger unit and back them up with psychic defense. This is not a balance issue. This is a terrible way to field the unit!

Rhinos cost power and are an external unit to the Rubrics...

And somebody still believes you can look at one unit in vacuum without others?

Tell you what. You show tournament that will have 8 power points/1 unit max armies with preset deployment/terrain. Then you can look at one unit vs one unit in vacuum.

Please don't put words into my mouth. I was just pointing out that adding extra PL does nothing to stop this whole silly thread from going round and round about how the new guys are the new OP despite proof that it's not an equivilant comparison between the units due to extra factors pushing the power level of Rubrics up while the Inceptors have no options to be added in to push their Power Level up.

Well Rubric Marines are confirmed to be 18 each. Make of that as you will.

18 without Inferno Bolters.

That said, we can at least compare base stts and durability more fairly now.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
18 without Inferno Bolters.

That said, we can at least compare base stts and durability more fairly now.

I'm imagining that the Bolters will be the standard loadout and Flamers will cost extra like last time. So that, along with the Soul Reaper, are what we need prices on.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


Thats amazing Str 3 multi damage is the exact same wound rate as Str 6/7 wound rate think maybe your math is off? And when your done fixing that figure out how many shots are required to remove 5 wounds from Rubrics and 6 wounds for Inceptors. Because that 1 wound can make one hell of a differwnce as you will find out.

Yeah, because multi wound negates the improved wound rate. I dont see you saying where it is right or wrong. I did mess up the str 5 and 6 multi wound but the rest should be solid

I swear for someone who doesnt want to add context you seem to be moving those goalpost.

They're 18 points a model, you say? Well I sure hope somebody picks up that phone...

 ross-128 wrote:
They're 18 points a model, you say? Well I sure hope somebody picks up that phone...

18ppm with no wargear. Likely aout 20-22 with an Inferno Bolter.

And maybe it,s too much DBZ Abridged but I feel like calling you Cooler all of a sudden....

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
They're 18 points a model, you say? Well I sure hope somebody picks up that phone...

18ppm with no wargear. Likely aout 20-22 with an Inferno Bolter.

And maybe it,s too much DBZ Abridged but I feel like calling you Cooler all of a sudden....

They always have an inferno bolter......

BUT I fething CALLLEDD IT

 Lance845 wrote:
This is a super entertaining thread. Not productive in any way. But a total hoot to keep reading.

It's just like any other Traditio thread but with a bit less yelling.

They will cost more.

For comparison, Hellblasters are 23ppm but their guns cost 17ppm.

 Leth wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
They're 18 points a model, you say? Well I sure hope somebody picks up that phone...

18ppm with no wargear. Likely aout 20-22 with an Inferno Bolter.

And maybe it,s too much DBZ Abridged but I feel like calling you Cooler all of a sudden....

They always have an inferno bolter......

BUT I fething CALLLEDD IT

Go look at the points costs list again. For anyone who is not a named special character it is given "without wargear". Which means that they could be more expensive once given a gun.

Yoyoyo wrote:
They will cost more.

For comparison, Hellblasters are 23ppm but their guns cost 17ppm.

By that logic Inceptors will cost 39 points plus whatever their weapons cost, no?