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Something worth mentioning, the rule book leaks have inceptors going up to 45 ppm from 39, and assault bolter for 7 to 15. Which means a point increase of 159 points to 225, a 42% increase.

Depending on which leak is more accurate, it's entirely possible inceptors have gotten a (deserved) point and power hike at some point.

NEW INFO!!!

Apparently HQ can provide buffs strong enough to double a models effectiveness

Except of course it wasn't CSM that are getting that (at least as what we know for now, but unlikely)

Rowboat Gullible will grant Re-roll all hits and wounds to allies near him.

 Talamare wrote:
NEW INFO!!!

Apparently HQ can provide buffs strong enough to double a models effectiveness

Except of course it wasn't CSM that are getting that (at least as what we know for now, but unlikely)

Rowboat Gullible will grant Re-roll all hits and wounds to allies near him.

Well, to be fair, he is a Primarch, and one of the more tactically inclined as well. Given that's he's a LoW, it's not surprising. Also, IIRC, its only to Ultramarines keyword models.

Abbadon at least does half of that, by letting Black Legion guys re-roll to hit so its not like CSM are completely in the dumps.

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
The psyker only knows smite it would say otherwise in the data sheet.

Not necessarily. The new pysker system seems a direct port from Age of Sigmar's magic system and over there power generation rules are tied into the army specific discipline rules while those presented on the warscroll/datasheet are the powers unique to the unit and the basic ones that all wizards know. If the faction lacks its own disciplines then they only get the powers listed in the unit entry, but we know Chaos has their own from one of the leaks so odds are good that the Aspiring Sorcerer will know at least 1 extra power besides Smite (say Warptime for instance, assuming Dark Hereticus is a generic list any Chaos psyker can pull from).

Sorcerers, Exalted Sorcerers, Ahriman and Magnus will undoubtedly all confer some nice bonuses.

In 7th there were a lot of faction bonuses to improve psychic powers (mitigate perils, harness on a 3+, ignore LOS) and to improve durability (reroll failed saves, improve invul to 3++, increased toughness).

There were relatively minor offensive buffs (Tzaangors advance + charge, reroll misses on 1's, Icon of Flame).

Rubrics aren't independent operators the way Inceptors are so I'm sure we'll see some pretty decent cooperation between them and their HQs.

 Talamare wrote:
NEW INFO!!!

Apparently HQ can provide buffs strong enough to double a models effectiveness

Except of course it wasn't CSM that are getting that (at least as what we know for now, but unlikely)

Rowboat Gullible will grant Re-roll all hits and wounds to allies near him.

this isn't exactly new, Gulliman was always a army buffer, wheras Abbaddon was always simply an amazing beatstick. I suspect that Fabius Bile will be the choice for buffing CSM units.

The sad thing is, seeing some of the disciplines CSM get doesn't inspire much hope in the Sorcerer having access to better powers than smite.

Seems like Tsons can never get a break in 40k.

 Talamare wrote:


Rowboat Gullible will grant Re-roll all hits and wounds to allies near him.

Just in case you feel your primaris aren't good enough.

Rhinos (at least, loyalist rhinos) are 70 points, apparently.

Just saying.

 Cryonicleech wrote:
The sad thing is, seeing some of the disciplines CSM get doesn't inspire much hope in the Sorcerer having access to better powers than smite.

Seems like Tsons can never get a break in 40k.

 Talamare wrote:


Rowboat Gullible will grant Re-roll all hits and wounds to allies near him.

Just in case you feel your primaris aren't good enough.

really when you step back and look at it, the Primairs Captain almost comes off as a "discount Gulliman"

 Cryonicleech wrote:
Seems like Tsons can never get a break in 40k.

This is too much.

Thousand Sons had some very nice units, relics, and formations in 7th. The Rehati formation wasn't fluffy but it was still top table. Ahriman could solo an Imperial Knight with a decent power on Heretech. Exalted Sorc with Seer's Bane was one of the better CC options in the game. They had some great new psychic powers on the Tzeentch CSM table, only marred by an unreliable Primaris which couldn't compete with psychic shriek. War Cabal with rr1s could outlast Battle Company. They were solid, just not broken.

The Aspiring Sorcerer has always been the weakest link (driving up the squad cost while being unreliable). Rubrics are just MEQ. Tzaangors are Cultist equivalent. But the HQs were superstars and the Scarab Occult did very well with a bonus or two. There were much, much worse armies in 7th. My biggest disappointment is that we lose the cool relics and expanded psychic discipline. But hey it was fun while it lasted.

Yoyoyo wrote:
OP did we finally figure out if they get a 4+ invul yet?

We're only 12 pages in after all.

I'm leaning towards yes but I'm not sure now with all the contradicting stuff that's coming out. If anything it definitely warrants a full reevaluation.


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 BoomWolf wrote:
Yea, I literally smashed my head to the desk over this.

Apparently official publications are fake these days.



EDIT:
Oh, BTW, we got a new leak about chaos, some datasheets and the point costs of all existing units (without wargear costs)

An Aspiring Sorcerer costs 30, a Rubric costs 18 (!!!!)
So yea, a squad of a sorcerer plus 4 rubrics is 102 points.
Possibly more due to wargear actually costing points (as the price indicates wargear not included), but the lowball potential of rubrics is THAT cheap. honestly, if the base gear for them DOESNT cost points, its rather OP even.


A plauge marine is base 21, for comparison.
Abbadon-we got full rules (well, except anything triggers off keywords, and still no conformation about DttFE) at 253 points, linked to not bloat the place
http://i.imgur.com/rg74NsYg.jpg

info for your viewing:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333990-leaked-chaos-space-marine-rules/


Seems like oblits totally changed. not sure if I approve of the new form, but its a thing.

You should be smashing your head on your desk because you have 2 different PL for the same unit from the same source. Some is probably going to get yelled at

that's a lot to go through Oblits look crazy (average) S 12 (9) AP -6 (-3) D 6 (3)

one thought about all this is that terminators deep striking will be a LOT more reliable in 8th edition, so I expect we'll see it more often, depending on what powers they get, scarb occult squads could be a great assasination unit.

given their sorc is more powerful, I could see scarab occult aspiring sorcs with a full fledged smite, drop one of those behind a gunline, and maybe wipe a character out nice and quick. that could be a real important thing given it looks like space Marine captians all have the 6 inch "re-roll 1s" bubble, and chapter masters have a 6 inch "re-roll all failed hits" bubble.

 ross-128 wrote:
Pretty sure you do have to pay for your default gear, if said gear does have a cost.

However, considering bolt rifles are 0 points, I suspect that the Rubrics' bolters will only be 1 or 2 points at most. After all, it's just a bolter with AP -2, bolt rifles are a bolter with AP -1 and 6" of extra range. Therefore, I can expect that they will be similar in cost.

Assault bolters are so expensive because it's basically a heavy bolter, so of course its cost is similar to a heavy bolter.

I would go with 2. Maybe 3 but that seems to be pushing it.

The problem I am seeing is if you add up the top end of war gear costs Rubrics would still fall below the 150 mark for unless the Icon costs 15 - 20 points, or they are adding in 1/2 the cost of a reaper cannon.


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BrianDavion wrote:
one thought about all this is that terminators deep striking will be a LOT more reliable in 8th edition, so I expect we'll see it more often, depending on what powers they get, scarb occult squads could be a great assasination unit.

given their sorc is more powerful, I could see scarab occult aspiring sorcs with a full fledged smite, drop one of those behind a gunline, and maybe wipe a character out nice and quick. that could be a real important thing given it looks like space Marine captians all have the 6 inch "re-roll 1s" bubble, and chapter masters have a 6 inch "re-roll all failed hits" bubble.

SOT dont have an aspiring sorcerer. Hes a full fledged Sorc and he will probably have access to a spell outside of smite.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


You should be smashing your head on your desk because you have 2 different PL for the same unit from the same source. Some is probably going to get yelled at

that's a lot to go through Oblits look crazy (average) S 12 (9) AP -6 (-3) D 6 (3)

The only thing the power level thing shows is that one of the pictures was not final. They were clearly both GW.
Which also shows that your insistance on relying on power levels to make final judgement was flawed from the get go. ( to no fault of your own since we didn't have both)
Nobody was faulting you for making comparisons, it was the way you implied that nothing major could change from now to release.
And not only did it turn out that power levels might not be what we thought they were, not even the points were/are a sure thing, so clearly you were jumping the gun there a bit.

On Oblits, how are you getting to average strenth 9 or even 12?
The gun I'm seeing S6 +d3 so 8 on average and max 9, same for the rest. Ap-2 average and 2 damage average.
You got yet another leak?

Chances are the Runic Bolter has a cost of 0 points because it is the base weapon for the Rubric Marines. The only way I could see them costing more is if the flamer has a cost of 0 and the bolter becomes the upgrade weapon.

Now for the point cost of a unit, assuming 0 point bolters, is probably 119 for the first 5. That is 18 points per Rubric and costing the Aspiring 17 points for his force weapon, since it is just a Master Crafted weapon under a different name basically (d3 damage instead of strait 2 damage). This makes the math for Rubrics a lot better against the new marines who are 225 (from the blood angels leak if I remember correctly).

It's really hard to say. The sorc is 30 points apparently but we don't know if that is only because of pseudo smite and possibly other powers or also for his force weapon. 30 points for a psyker with force weapon is pretty cheap after all and the icon is still a complete wild card. They may even act as csm force multipliers instead of our characters.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Cryonicleech wrote:
Seems like Tsons can never get a break in 40k.

This is too much.

Thousand Sons had some very nice units, relics, and formations in 7th. The Rehati formation wasn't fluffy but it was still top table. Ahriman could solo an Imperial Knight with a decent power on Heretech. Exalted Sorc with Seer's Bane was one of the better CC options in the game. They had some great new psychic powers on the Tzeentch CSM table, only marred by an unreliable Primaris which couldn't compete with psychic shriek. War Cabal with rr1s could outlast Battle Company. They were solid, just not broken.

The Aspiring Sorcerer has always been the weakest link (driving up the squad cost while being unreliable). Rubrics are just MEQ. Tzaangors are Cultist equivalent. But the HQs were superstars and the Scarab Occult did very well with a bonus or two. There were much, much worse armies in 7th. My biggest disappointment is that we lose the cool relics and expanded psychic discipline. But hey it was fun while it lasted.

Rhati was alright if you liked it. Ahriman could very effectively kill himself while removing half the points he costed from the table, there was a reason no one brought him. Chaos Lord with Seer's Bane on a Disk was one of the best CC options, Exalted Sorcs are too expensive to have them going toe to toe with people. Yes the powers were strong, but they were unfun, and required little thought to employ. Everything your pointing at came out 6 months ago in an edition that has been around for 5 years. Your pointing at something that has been around for less then 10% of the play time of the game.


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 Roknar wrote:
It's really hard to say. The sorc is 30 points apparently but we don't know if that is only because of pseudo smite and possibly other powers or also for his force weapon. 30 points for a psyker with force weapon is pretty cheap after all and the icon is still a complete wild card. They may even act as csm force multipliers instead of our characters.

That's just for him and his smite. Not his Force weapon or his pistol. which will probably cost about 15 points total.

You can look at the Lord of Contagion for an example of a CSM character. They are going to have unique effects logical to the Legion, in his case it gives a Mortal Wound aura to all DG models under his aura.

No idea for the TS characters, but given how GW coordinates with writers and focuses on thematic elements it will probably be greater resiliency or psychic stuff. Ahriman in particular was a Corvidae guy. Some kind of aura benefits related to the Div table would make a lot of sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There's a big difference between 10% and "never". So in general, the trend has been in a very positive direction. Otherwise I don't really rate your judgements anymore than the ones you made in this thread. But hey, everyone has the right to their opinion.

Azoqu wrote:
Chances are the Runic Bolter has a cost of 0 points because it is the base weapon for the Rubric Marines. The only way I could see them costing more is if the flamer has a cost of 0 and the bolter becomes the upgrade weapon.

Now for the point cost of a unit, assuming 0 point bolters, is probably 119 for the first 5. That is 18 points per Rubric and costing the Aspiring 17 points for his force weapon, since it is just a Master Crafted weapon under a different name basically (d3 damage instead of strait 2 damage). This makes the math for Rubrics a lot better against the new marines who are 225 (from the blood angels leak if I remember correctly).

The Bolter is their base weapon and it has a -2 rend, its going to cost something. If your math is right then Rubrics should be PL 6 while the Inceptors would be PL 11. As best I can tell the base cost of the unit will be 130 20 per rubric, 50 for Sorcerer, 17 for weapon and 3 for pistol, plus 2 flamers about 10 points, puts it at 140 with the icon upgrade being 10 points that would be 150 putting them withing the 7.5 PL threshold. PL 11 seems a bit high for Inceptors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:
You can look at the Lord of Contagion for an example of a CSM character. They are going to have unique effects logical to the Legion, in his case it gives a Mortal Wound aura to all DG models under his aura.

No idea for the TS characters, but given how GW coordinates with writers and focuses on thematic elements it will probably be greater resiliency or psychic stuff. Ahriman in particular was a Corvidae guy. Some kind of aura benefits related to the Div table would make a lot of sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There's a big difference between 10% and "never". So in general, the trend has been in a very positive direction. Otherwise I don't really rate your judgements anymore than the ones you made in this thread. But hey, everyone has the right to their opinion.

I agree but the way you said it made it sound like the majority of the edition was spent having decent options, when 90% of the edition they didn't have decent options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Roknar wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


You should be smashing your head on your desk because you have 2 different PL for the same unit from the same source. Some is probably going to get yelled at

that's a lot to go through Oblits look crazy (average) S 12 (9) AP -6 (-3) D 6 (3)

The only thing the power level thing shows is that one of the pictures was not final. They were clearly both GW.
Which also shows that your insistance on relying on power levels to make final judgement was flawed from the get go. ( to no fault of your own since we didn't have both)
Nobody was faulting you for making comparisons, it was the way you implied that nothing major could change from now to release.
And not only did it turn out that power levels might not be what we thought they were, not even the points were/are a sure thing, so clearly you were jumping the gun there a bit.

On Oblits, how are you getting to average strenth 9 or even 12?
The gun I'm seeing S6 +d3 so 8 on average and max 9, same for the rest. Ap-2 average and 2 damage average.
You got yet another leak?

I didn't think anybody was but there is just as likely to be very little change as a large change to occur.

Misread it saw D6 for some reason but not much different 1 less/more ap and damage S 8 on average is still good.

I'm seeing what happened now, in the images they say "you roll 1..3..2...S7...AP-3...D2" Which doesn't match up, it should be S7 Ap-2 and D1

The first 8th edition datasheet GW released was Rubric Marines. Think about what message they wanted to send to players.

They're not going to be an afterthought.

Besides, chaos has never really been an afterthought compared to a lot of other armies.

if anything chaos is moving even further to the forefront of thoughts with this edition, 6th edition and most of 7th was "Age of xenos" 8th looks like it's gonna be "age of chaos" (obviously eaither way the IoM gets love)

SilverAlien wrote:
Something worth mentioning, the rule book leaks have inceptors going up to 45 ppm from 39, and assault bolter for 7 to 15. Which means a point increase of 159 points to 225, a 42% increase.

Depending on which leak is more accurate, it's entirely possible inceptors have gotten a (deserved) point and power hike at some point.

Yeah but I think that might be too much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
if anything chaos is moving even further to the forefront of thoughts with this edition, 6th edition and most of 7th was "Age of xenos" 8th looks like it's gonna be "age of chaos" (obviously eaither way the IoM gets love)

I hope not. I don't want an Age of Chaos I want each army to get equal amounts of love, which is impossible, but they should be striving for that.

Yoyoyo wrote:
The first 8th edition datasheet GW released was Rubric Marines. Think about what message they wanted to send to players.

They're not going to be an afterthought.

They wanted a well know unit that has a Psyker embedded so they could go over everything in the datasheet, and with a lot of people recently paying lots of money for new models it helps put people minds at ease.

 Melissia wrote:
Besides, chaos has never really been an afterthought compared to a lot of other armies.

Never said that was the case. But I don't want ANY army to be an after thought. Orcs probably got the worst of it out of all the armies, but that doesn't mean we should ignore CSM it means we should figure out what is wrong balance wise with each army and fix them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Roknar wrote:
Yea, I could see Rubrics having a 2+ most of the time, but never worse than 50% chance at saving. That's pretty much the equivalent of cataphractii terminator armour.

I dont see that happening it would make them under-priced.

Yoyoyo wrote:
It's 5+ invul against multiwound since they will lose the bonus.

Still, 2+/4++ is more than decent for a MEQ unit against everything else.

Except it would be more like a 2++ or a 3++which is just crazy.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Except it would be more like a 2++ or a 3++ which is just crazy.

No. Where do you even get these ideas?

Invul saves aren't affected by cover and there's no other known modifiers except "All is Dust". We may see rr1's, which are no joke on a 2+ armor save. Bolters and Lasguns will just splash off them. But right now Rubrics are at a 4++ max, dropping to 5++ once the real hardware comes out. Considering one of the worst balance offenders in 7th was the 2++/rr1's combo, I'd be very surprised if there's an easy way to access a 2++.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Orcs probably got the worst of it out of all the armies

Ha, no. Orks got screwed by a bad codex in sixth and seventh. But they've not been ignored.

Chaos players are quite amazing, they can have brand new incredible looking models, 2 daemon primarchs, many special rules created to cater to just them, 7th ed psychic dominance and so much more...and all they do is whinge.

 Vulkan Fran'cis wrote:
Chaos players are quite amazing, they can have brand new incredible looking models, 2 daemon primarchs, many special rules created to cater to just them, 7th ed psychic dominance and so much more...and all they do is whinge.

Well, its more to do with being second son to Space Marines.

This could have been the edition where they changed Storm Shields and other Imperial Advantages and they haven't. Our one workhorse, the Heldrake took the biggest hit with the new template rules,

On the plus, Plasma is over all better, and not completely outshone by Grav weaponry anymore. Plasma Cannons seem worse, but Ive never run them anyway.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Except it would be more like a 2++ or a 3++ which is just crazy.

No. Where do you even get these ideas?

Invul saves aren't affected by cover and there's no other known modifiers except "All is Dust". We may see rr1's, which are no joke on a 2+ armor save. Bolters and Lasguns will just splash off them. But right now Rubrics are at a 4++ max, dropping to 5++ once the real hardware comes out. Considering one of the worst balance offenders in 7th was the 2++/rr1's combo, I'd be very surprised if there's an easy way to access a 2++.

With support units focused on adding to the invul save you could have a single unit to 2++ using a spell and an aura. Which might limit you to one unit but 2++/3++ would be scary. Even a 3++ rerolling 1s is pretty potent. And adding a single +1 will be very doable for a Tzeentch.


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 Vulkan Fran'cis wrote:
Chaos players are quite amazing, they can have brand new incredible looking models, 2 daemon primarchs, many special rules created to cater to just them, 7th ed psychic dominance and so much more...and all they do is whinge.

Thanks. That was super helpful.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

 Vulkan Fran'cis wrote:
Chaos players are quite amazing, they can have brand new incredible looking models, 2 daemon primarchs, many special rules created to cater to just them, 7th ed psychic dominance and so much more...and all they do is whinge.

Well, its more to do with being second son to Space Marines.

This could have been the edition where they changed Storm Shields and other Imperial Advantages and they haven't. Our one workhorse, the Heldrake took the biggest hit with the new template rules,

On the plus, Plasma is over all better, and not completely outshone by Grav weaponry anymore. Plasma Cannons seem worse, but Ive never run them anyway.

are you refering to 8th edition? as I really like the helldrake in 8th. it's got some pretty awesome qualities

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Except it would be more like a 2++ or a 3++ which is just crazy.

No. Where do you even get these ideas?

Invul saves aren't affected by cover and there's no other known modifiers except "All is Dust". We may see rr1's, which are no joke on a 2+ armor save. Bolters and Lasguns will just splash off them. But right now Rubrics are at a 4++ max, dropping to 5++ once the real hardware comes out. Considering one of the worst balance offenders in 7th was the 2++/rr1's combo, I'd be very surprised if there's an easy way to access a 2++.

With support units focused on adding to the invul save you could have a single unit to 2++ using a spell and an aura. Which might limit you to one unit but 2++/3++ would be scary. Even a 3++ rerolling 1s is pretty potent. And adding a single +1 will be very doable for a Tzeentch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vulkan Fran'cis wrote:
Chaos players are quite amazing, they can have brand new incredible looking models, 2 daemon primarchs, many special rules created to cater to just them, 7th ed psychic dominance and so much more...and all they do is whinge.

Thanks. That was super helpful.

You are assuming all of these ability exist, are usable by a single army, and can stack. We have nothing that tells us this is the case yet. Way to panic.