Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

What are people thinking in terms of dreadnoughts? Dual autocannon dreads or Las and autocannon dread? More Las is always good right and it gives you greater flexibility in engaging targets

How do we get the weight of fire to deal with hordes? Or even just high numbers of infantry?

One of my usual opponents plays Necrons and I haven't been able to beat him. We've been playing lower point games so he's only been taking 10 man squads but between the rend on gauss and the tesla from Immortals I am being overwhelmed in shooting.

Smite's 1 mortal wound does practically nothing (especially considering the squad comes back) and My 5 man Paladin squad with 2 psycannons did about 3 wounds between shooting and assault, before dying because they fell back and rapid fired/tesla'd with the nearby squads.

The latest list I tried was
Grand Master with psycannon
Apothecary
Castellan Crowe
5 Paladins with 2 psycannons & mix of melee weapons
5 Purifiers with 2 psycannons

The Purifiers died to Deathmarks far before they could get in range to smite anything, the Grandmaster was tarpitted by Wraith until a Night Scythe dumped 5 warscythe Lychguard into the combat, killing my GM and my Apothecary (but luckily Crowe showed up at roughly that exact moment and over 2 turns rolled 2 6 damage smites, killing both units)

And then Crowe, who was my last model at this point, promptly died to rapid fire/tesla.

Don't even get me started on if he brings a Monolith, haha.

Rihgu wrote:
How do we get the weight of fire to deal with hordes? Or even just high numbers of infantry?

The latest list I tried was
Grand Master with psycannon
Apothecary
Castellan Crowe
5 Paladins with 2 psycannons & mix of melee weapons
5 Purifiers with 2 psycannons

Assuming that's about 1000 points? You're bringing 13 models. You don't have enough warm bodies to provide meaningful fire.
Try something like:
1 HQ
3 Interceptor Squads/Strike Squads at max unit size (combat squad them)
IDK Razorbacks? Something with anti tank.

Now you've got 31 models + however you fill out your last 150ish points, giving you 62 storm bolter shots at 24" or 124 at 12". Compare to your list where you have 16 storm bolter shots and 5 psycannon.
Elite stuff is cool, but without a solid core of PAGK, you're going to have a rough time.

You are using too many expensive units. Paladins are great for pressuring but they are really expensive for low points, specially if you load them with psycannons. Purifiers are even worse, as they are expensive but also fragile, they require a delivery device and a very specific game plan.

Also you are playing too many characters. Every single grey knight character is bad except for the first grand master. Your units are already good, they don't need many buffs.

Generally, the core of your army should consist of strike squads, preferably on transports or maybe interceptors.

3 units of 5 strike squad + 3 razorbacks with assault cannon and bolter add up to 621 points, and give you 72 bolter shots and 36 assault cannon shots. That decimates any light or medium armor infantry, even more if the grand master is around. Also with the razorbacks the strtike squads are protected from light fire and have mobility.

For the heavy targets you can use Paladins,Twinlas+TwinAC dreadnoughts or doomglaives (heavy psycannon and doomglaive). Also your GM (which should usually be upgraded to Voldus or Draigo) with a hammer can deal with armor.

Paladins should not be used as your only anti armor, as they lack mobility. They are a very resistant target that can kill most things and pressure, but they can't surgically remove a problematic target.

Las + AC dreads are pretty good for their points, but against really durable targets like leman russes only the laser is good, and you won't be able to blow it in one turn unless you are playing at least 3 dreads. The AC are good, but kind of redundant, as bolters and assault cannons can already deal with light and medium armor. Also, they will remain immobile so they are not good with objectives and will get separated from the main army, wich can be dangerous.

Doomglaives are great, they are venerables with a triple AC and a better (and cheaper) dreadnought close combat weapon. They also know smite and can use gate of infinity for mobility. They basically can deal with any threat, but they are not the most durable.

Triple AC? Do they have a special psycannon?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rihgu wrote:
How do we get the weight of fire to deal with hordes? Or even just high numbers of infantry?

One of my usual opponents plays Necrons and I haven't been able to beat him. We've been playing lower point games so he's only been taking 10 man squads but between the rend on gauss and the tesla from Immortals I am being overwhelmed in shooting.

Smite's 1 mortal wound does practically nothing (especially considering the squad comes back) and My 5 man Paladin squad with 2 psycannons did about 3 wounds between shooting and assault, before dying because they fell back and rapid fired/tesla'd with the nearby squads.

The latest list I tried was
Grand Master with psycannon
Apothecary
Castellan Crowe
5 Paladins with 2 psycannons & mix of melee weapons
5 Purifiers with 2 psycannons

The Purifiers died to Deathmarks far before they could get in range to smite anything, the Grandmaster was tarpitted by Wraith until a Night Scythe dumped 5 warscythe Lychguard into the combat, killing my GM and my Apothecary (but luckily Crowe showed up at roughly that exact moment and over 2 turns rolled 2 6 damage smites, killing both units)

And then Crowe, who was my last model at this point, promptly died to rapid fire/tesla.

Don't even get me started on if he brings a Monolith, haha.

Drop the psycannons and bring Psilencers. More shots on target. Also as has been stated you have a lot of elite units which can be really hard to manage.

Drop Crowe and the apothecary if your only running a single Paladins squad. Add in either strikes or purgation squad which I personally am a fan of. A squad with 4 psilencers is only 113 points and has a lot of dice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nevermind I found the info on the doomglaive. Except no points which is annoying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nevermind again found that too...

ryzouken wrote:

Assuming that's about 1000 points? You're bringing 13 models. You don't have enough warm bodies to provide meaningful fire.

50 power, which is roughly 1000pts, yea.

Try something like:
1 HQ
3 Interceptor Squads/Strike Squads at max unit size (combat squad them)
IDK Razorbacks? Something with anti tank.

And therein lies my problem. All but 12 of my PAGK are modeled as Purifiers so I can't take full squads because too many special weapons models and not enough basic dudes models. So guess I have to hit the store...

Now you've got 31 models + however you fill out your last 150ish points, giving you 62 storm bolter shots at 24" or 124 at 12". Compare to your list where you have 16 storm bolter shots and 5 psycannon.
Elite stuff is cool, but without a solid core of PAGK, you're going to have a rough time.

Can't we just go back to 5th edition where the Grey Knights lists had 15 models and that was considered good? Those were the good old days :(

Seizeman wrote:You are using too many expensive units. Paladins are great for pressuring but they are really expensive for low points, specially if you load them with psycannons. Purifiers are even worse, as they are expensive but also fragile, they require a delivery device and a very specific game plan.

We were using Power so point cost of psycannons wasn't particularly an issue.

TheMostWize wrote:Drop the psycannons and bring Psilencers. More shots on target. Also as has been stated you have a lot of elite units which can be really hard to manage.

Sadly I made my minis back in 5th edition where my only opponent was a Leman Russ heavy guard player so I needed every psycannon I could get to gamble for rends. (In all of our games together, the only damage that happened to his Leman Russes were a Gets Hot from plasma sponsons, so fat lot of good they did me) so unless I buy new models or rip the ones I've got apart, I'm going to be sticking with psycannons. New models will probably be getting psilencers, though.

This is the 100 Power list I'm planning on taking against him next time we play:

Grandmaster with halberd+psycannon
5 Paladins
1 Apothecary
1 Stormraven with MM, Lascannons and hurricane bolters
5 Purgators with 4 psycannons
5 Purgators with 4 psycannons
1 Dreadknight with Heavy Incinerator and Greatsword (deepstriking)
2 Razorbacks with assault cannons

Doomglaive dread uses a heavy psycanon, the same that the dreadknights use, but with 2+ BS. It has a shorter range than the autocannon, of course.

Everyone is praising psilencers on strike squads but I think they are awful. If you move, which you are going to do most of the time (disembarking, deepstriking and gateofinfinitying count as moving), they do very little more than the storm bolter. For that, you are loosing your falchions. Flachions are worth at least 7 points, so the psycannon is actually not cheap at all. You are giving up all your combat power (which is a lot) for a little shooting.

Grey knights are a really powerful offensive army, but not a very good defensive one. You are paying 8 points more than a normal marine for the same thoughness, and the only way that is going to pay off is if you maximise your damage. For that, your need your strike squads to deal damage both in the shooting phase and in combat. If you charge a single time with a strike squad, you are dealing more damage than what the extra power from the psilencers would do the whole game.

If you want a unit to sit back inmobile and shoot, don't use strike squads, use dreadnoughts and the like.

Rihgu wrote:

Grandmaster with halberd+psycannon
5 Paladins
1 Apothecary
1 Stormraven with MM, Lascannons and hurricane bolters
5 Purgators with 4 psycannons
5 Purgators with 4 psycannons
1 Dreadknight with Heavy Incinerator and Greatsword (deepstriking)
2 Razorbacks with assault cannons

Hey Rihgu, I've had great results using Purge Soul. YYMV.

If you're really hurting you might consider pulling in an Eversor assassin to pop up and charge shooty squads the turn you deep strike in. If they fall-back, they can't shoot.

In my humble opinion you're going too shooty. GKs have incredible melee with the Nemesis d3 wounds. You've probably played a lot more games with GK than I have, but I find my shooting to be completely lackluster in terms of removing the targets I care about. I expect to get out-shot in every game, so I've been thinking a lot about how to give myself a turn post-deepstrike to get in charge range. That points me at the Callidus & Eversor assassins.

I'm no expert, but that's what I'd try

Bigfashizzel wrote:

Rihgu wrote:

Grandmaster with halberd+psycannon
5 Paladins
1 Apothecary
1 Stormraven with MM, Lascannons and hurricane bolters
5 Purgators with 4 psycannons
5 Purgators with 4 psycannons
1 Dreadknight with Heavy Incinerator and Greatsword (deepstriking)
2 Razorbacks with assault cannons

Hey Rihgu, I've had great results using Purge Soul. YYMV.

If you're really hurting you might consider pulling in an Eversor assassin to pop up and charge shooty squads the turn you deep strike in. If they fall-back, they can't shoot.

In my humble opinion you're going too shooty. GKs have incredible melee with the Nemesis d3 wounds. You've probably played a lot more games with GK than I have, but I find my shooting to be completely lackluster in terms of removing the targets I care about. I expect to get out-shot in every game, so I've been thinking a lot about how to give myself a turn post-deepstrike to get in charge range. That points me at the Callidus & Eversor assassins.

I'm no expert, but that's what I'd try

And this is close to my thoughts. If we want to shoot, probably best to take allies. We're a melee force.

Seizeman wrote:
Doomglaive dread uses a heavy psycanon, the same that the dreadknights use, but with 2+ BS. It has a shorter range than the autocannon, of course.

Everyone is praising psilencers on strike squads but I think they are awful. If you move, which you are going to do most of the time (disembarking, deepstriking and gateofinfinitying count as moving), they do very little more than the storm bolter. For that, you are loosing your falchions. Flachions are worth at least 7 points, so the psycannon is actually not cheap at all. You are giving up all your combat power (which is a lot) for a little shooting.

Grey knights are a really powerful offensive army, but not a very good defensive one. You are paying 8 points more than a normal marine for the same thoughness, and the only way that is going to pay off is if you maximise your damage. For that, your need your strike squads to deal damage both in the shooting phase and in combat. If you charge a single time with a strike squad, you are dealing more damage than what the extra power from the psilencers would do the whole game.

If you want a unit to sit back inmobile and shoot, don't use strike squads, use dreadnoughts and the like.

At the moment, shooting is more meaningful in 8e than melee, which means Psilencers are more useful than Falchions. Bearing in mind local meta, of course.

SJ

I am also in the boat of shooting > melee. 4 S4 AP0 is producing more results than 2 S4 AP-2 to me. Especially because charging can be lackluster in this edition.

Well, just won this weekends FLGS tournament. Was pretty easy to pick up objectives and still put out enough firepower with the following list:


Stormraven (AC, Melta, HB)
- Crowe (Gate)
- Purifier (Psilencer, Psycannon) Justicar with hammer (Gate)
- Purifier (Psilencer, Psycannon) Justicar with hammer (Gate)
- Dreadnought - Melta, CCW with SB
Stormraven (AC, Melta, HB)
- Purifier (Psilencer, Psycannon) Justicar with hammer (Gate)
- Purifier (Psilencer, Psycannon) Justicar with hammer (Gate)
- Dreadnought - Melta, CCW with SB
Dreadknight - H.Inc, H.Psy + 2 dreadfists (Gate)


Yes, I am of the opinion all models that only have 1 power should take gate. This is because at any point in the game you might want to teleport the unit out of combat across the board to an unsecured objective. Yes, I understand it's only one unit per turn. All of them should normally be casting smite.

Nice work Youn,

Dreadnoughts winning events - what an age we live in.

What kind of lists did you face?

Round 1: World eaters with Demon backup. Tabled him on turn 3. (15-0)
Round 2: Grey knights in two waves near tabled him then his paladins plus drago came in on turn 2. At that point, I killed everything but drago and 1 squad of paladins. Was left with 1 storm raven. Final score (10-7).
Round 3: Primaris Marines with Landraider and 2 razorbacks as backup. I cleared a huge amount but at the end was down to dreadknight plus 1 squad. Used Gate of infinity, to save a surrounded squad to take a 2pt objective. Technically lost the match. (6-8).

At 31 points, I ended in first place.

Congrats on the win. Can I ask a few questions?

Why Crowe? I've been struggling to understand his benefit with no AP on his sword.

I take it you had all the squads in the stormravens, for a turn two drop? Because if you gate more than 9'' away, then move six, you're still out of range for the 3'' purifier smite.

In practice, did the heavy psycannon work out given that it imparts a negative to hit modifier if you move the dreadknight?

I took Crowe because his smite is equivalent to a purifier squad. And the stormravens need to be able to fit a HQ unit.

On game 1, I brought in the Dreadknight on turn 3 and then forgot that it was on the table for the rest of that turn.
On game 2, I brought it on Turn 1 and spent quite a bit of time killing 1 squad of intercepters and 1 dreadknight with it.
On game 3, I brought it in on turn 2, held an objective and pretty much killed 2 squads on it's side of the table over 2 turns. Then I elected to keep that objective making my points (2 Objectives + Slay warlord + First Blood = 6pts).


Remember, top thing to do in any game is play the objectives over play to wipe out your opponent.

Youn wrote:
Well, just won this weekends FLGS tournament. Was pretty easy to pick up objectives and still put out enough firepower with the following list:


Stormraven (AC, Melta, HB)
- Crowe (Gate, Purge)
- Purifier (Psilencer, Psycannon) Justicar with hammer (Gate)
- Purifier (Psilencer, Psycannon) Justicar with hammer (Gate)
- Dreadnought - Melta, CCW with SB (Gate)
Stormraven (AC, Melta, HB)
- Purifier (Psilencer, Psycannon) Justicar with hammer (Gate)
- Purifier (Psilencer, Psycannon) Justicar with hammer (Gate)
- Dreadnought - Melta, CCW with SB (Gate)
Dreadknight - H.Inc, H.Psy + 2 dreadfists (Gate)


Yes, I am of the opinion all models that only have 1 power should take gate. This is because at any point in the game you might want to teleport the unit out of combat across the board to an unsecured objective. Yes, I understand it's only one unit per turn. All of them should normally be casting smite.

FYI, Dreads only know Smite (cannot have Gate) and Crowe only knows 1 Sanctic power.

Only used smite the entire time anyways. the only squad power i used that wasn't Smite was Gate in the last turn to on a purifier squad of 1 guy to take an objective on the other side of the map. Crowe actually died to Vulcan and in his death action killed Vulcan.



So, all is good.

tman3257 wrote:

Youn wrote:
Well, just won this weekends FLGS tournament. Was pretty easy to pick up objectives and still put out enough firepower with the following list:


Stormraven (AC, Melta, HB)
- Crowe (Gate, Purge)
- Purifier (Psilencer, Psycannon) Justicar with hammer (Gate)
- Purifier (Psilencer, Psycannon) Justicar with hammer (Gate)
- Dreadnought - Melta, CCW with SB (Gate)
Stormraven (AC, Melta, HB)
- Purifier (Psilencer, Psycannon) Justicar with hammer (Gate)
- Purifier (Psilencer, Psycannon) Justicar with hammer (Gate)
- Dreadnought - Melta, CCW with SB (Gate)
Dreadknight - H.Inc, H.Psy + 2 dreadfists (Gate)


Yes, I am of the opinion all models that only have 1 power should take gate. This is because at any point in the game you might want to teleport the unit out of combat across the board to an unsecured objective. Yes, I understand it's only one unit per turn. All of them should normally be casting smite.

FYI, Dreads only know Smite (cannot have Gate) and Crowe only knows 1 Sanctic power.

If you take a Doomglaive they can know gate!

If you take a Doomglaive they can know gate!

Which book are the rules for the doomglaive in? I ask because when I search on forgeworld for it, it just comes up with Mark IV grey knight dreadnought armour.

I guess I'm just a little confused as to what makes something a Doomglaive exactly

The doomglaive is in the new FW index: adeptus astartes.

It is a regular venerable dreadnought but with an extra psychic power. It wields a doomglaive (basically a cheaper and better dreadnought close combat weapon) and a heavy psycannon. It can also replace It's storm bolter with an incinerator. WIth the storm bolter it comes at 168 points which makes it the cheaper and better choice if you want a versatile (not pure shooting) dreadnought.

It's close to being as effective with shooting because the heavy psycannon is 6 shots. While it has shorter range of also can carry an incinerator which is great for overwatch. Not to mention it can actually fight effectively I combat with it's D6 damage and no hit penalty.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What thoughts do you guys have on adding in Scions (as a fluffy inquisitorial force). The Taurox and Taurox Prime seem like good vehicles this edition. Loading up some scions with Plasma or jist taking them bare bones to backfield babysit seems like a fluffy snd effective option to fill out a cheap battalion for the extra command points.

I was mostly trying something when I put those normal dreadnoughts into play. They used smite and each were dropped from the stormraven on turn 2. The melta shots were used in 2 of the games to finish off land raiders. As you basically drop those dreadnought with the understanding they are going to get focused down. Which for me was fine as I would rather someone focus down a generic dreadnought then a squad of purifiers.

Youn wrote:
I was mostly trying something when I put those normal dreadnoughts into play. They used smite and each were dropped from the stormraven on turn 2. The melta shots were used in 2 of the games to finish off land raiders. As you basically drop those dreadnought with the understanding they are going to get focused down. Which for me was fine as I would rather someone focus down a generic dreadnought then a squad of purifiers.

I think Dreads are an excellent addition to GK forces in this edition. I plan on taking two Doomglaive variants in my force. I like the idea of a small elite force even if its not the MOST competitive. I think a knight would be a great addition to GKs for a beefy shooting platform.

Been toying with that idea as well.

The real issue with the Doomglaive is you need Methods of killing vehicles. A psycannon isn't going to do it effectively.


Note: I own 6 dreadnoughts. 1 Doomglaive, 2 Multi-melta + Close Combat, 2 twin powerfists, 1 Plasma + Close Combat. The Multi-melta ones seem to be the most effective that I own.

The only vehicles you need to kill are light transport vehicles which die easily enough to psycannons, autocannons and bolters.

For the heavy shooty vehicles, you don't kill them, you ram them with your transports so they can't shoot. It's impossible for grey knights to have enough heavy fire to kill more than one or two heavy vehicles, so it is pointless to try solving the problem that way. Just clear their infantry wall (which grey knights do extremely well) and charge.

The doomglaive is also dealing D6 damage per hit in combat which makes him a good option for heavies as well if ue can get the charge on them.

Fielding 2 Stormravens I have killed a Landraider, 2 predators and 2 dreadnoughts in one fight. I have had to kill an imperial knight.

Turn 1: 2 Multi-melta + 4 missles for vehicles. 4 hurricane bolters + 2 twin AC for troops.
Turn 2: 2 Multi-melta from Dreadnoughts + any surviving of the above.

You will kill heavy vehicles.

And generally speaking you don't ram anything with a storm raven.

What do you guys think about bringing some Lascannon Tarantula Sentry guns? Each is a individual unit that autonomously targets vehicles 60 points for 2 lascannon shots at BS4 sounds pretty good.

Oddly enough they take the Fast Attack slot so we don't really care about filling that slot with single model units.

Also did FW say anything about how we can't add the Grey Knight <Chapter> keyword to ANY of the Space Marine vehicles?

While talking about FW, is it only the stuff in the Gery Knight section you can take as the poster above mentions I.e. Could you take a leviathan dread as Grey Knight?

Also what's the tactical advantage of Grey Knight Dreads over the DK?