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Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight







Honestly I'm just happy with how active the GK community is again; the information being argued over is great for everyone and presents more opportunities for everyone to learn.

 SHUPPET wrote:

wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
 
   
Made in be
Monstrous Master Moulder






Oh, the units are in a pretty good spot... Most things seem to be playable. I'm just not sure about the Rites of Banishment rule.

I don't mind the decreased range, but I still think giving them D3 Mortal wounds against all targets (without the option for D6 wounds on 10+) and double that against demons would at least go some way to make them feel less like neutered Psykers.

Or as some suggest, at least let the characters/HQ options cast it at full strenght.

The boy, I say, the boy is as sharp as a sack of wet mice... 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Grey knights having 1d3 smite would be ridiculously broken. The Rites of banishment rule is perfect as it is.
   
Made in us
Terrifying Wraith






Does anyone run swords on their paladins? I think the swords look great but it seems falchions with the +1 attack wins out over the -3 AP is the difference that great that running swords would be insane or is falchions more about min/max.

 
   
Made in us
Damsel of the Lady




 TheMostWize wrote:
Does anyone run swords on their paladins? I think the swords look great but it seems falchions with the +1 attack wins out over the -3 AP is the difference that great that running swords would be insane or is falchions more about min/max.


More about min/max. Running a straight sword over the Falchion pair isn't going to hurt you terribly. Swords are actually the next step down on the tier list too. It goes: Hammer -> Falchions -> Sword -> Halberd -> Staff in terms of offensive output.
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Actually halberds are better than swords most of the time. And yes, the difference between falchions and the other weapons is pretty significant.
   
Made in us
Terrifying Wraith






Yea the damage between halberds and swords is pretty close. That being said falchions far and way seem to be the best option after hammers.

Wonder if the new dex' will change any of that.

 
   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

I really wish I would have magnetized my options back when I put all my sqauds together. I think I only did the terminators, and only some of them at that.

I think at this point though, it's just gonna be "oh, and pretend every sword is a set of falchions".

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Wraith






I'm debating magnetizing my psilencers. Storm bolsters on a per point level seem like the better option on terminator's. Based on the math on page 9.
I really am a fan of them though. Maybe just running a single for the extra shots instead of dual.

 
   
Made in us
Damsel of the Lady




Seizeman wrote:
Actually halberds are better than swords most of the time. And yes, the difference between falchions and the other weapons is pretty significant.


That is not what the math for power swords Vs. axes, which is basically the same as swords vs. Halberds, barring a few select situations.
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Halberds are significantly better against T4,5 and 8 and vs anything with armor 5+ or worse. They are worse vs T6 and T7 vehicles and some eldar stuff.

So yes, halberds are better against most targets. Furthermore, when they are better, they are a lot better, and when they are worse, they are just a little worse.

Anyway, noone should have a problem if you use all weapons as falchions.
   
Made in us
Damsel of the Lady




Seizeman wrote:
Halberds are significantly better against T4,5 and 8 and vs anything with armor 5+ or worse. They are worse vs T6 and T7 vehicles and some eldar stuff.

So yes, halberds are better against most targets. Furthermore, when they are better, they are a lot better, and when they are worse, they are just a little worse.

Anyway, noone should have a problem if you use all weapons as falchions.


I'm sorry, but you're looking at very marginal differences even where the Halberd excels most of the time:

(These expected wounds include the 1D3 damage variance for both weapons)

Sword Vs. T4 at 2+/3+/4+/5+/6+ armor:
Wounds Expected from 1 Attack: .44/.55/.66/.66/.66

Sword Vs. T5 at 2+/3+/4+/5+/6+ armor:
Wounds Expected from 1 Attack: .30/.37/.45/.45/.45

Sword Vs. T8 at 2+/3+/4+/5+/6+ armor:
Wounds Expected from 1 Attack: .15/.18/.22/.22/.22

Halberd Vs. T4 at 2+/3+/4+/5+/6+ armor:
Wounds Expected from 1 Attack: .44/.60/.74/.88/.88

Halberd Vs. T5 at 2+/3+/4+/5+/6+ armor:
Wounds Expected from 1 Attack: .33/.44/.56/.67/.67

Halberd Vs. T8 at 2+/3+/4+/5+/6+ armor:
Wounds Expected from 1 Attack: .22/.30/.37/.45/.45

Conversely, your statement that the Halberd is better against "all" 5+ saves is incorrect. The Sword and Halberd are equal against 5+ saves from models of T1-3, T5-7 and T10+. The Sword exceeds the Halberd against 2+/3+/4+ saves in those same toughness ranges (oddly except for T4 2+, where they literally balance out as equal).

And the Sword outperforms the Halberd against the wide range of remaining match-ups, which I would say is far more than match-ups where the Halberd actually manages to perform better.

I'd advise a Halberd if you KNOW you're gonna be slamming it into an Imperial Knight (Halberd outperforms Sword .30 to .18) but against the vast majority of vehicles (T7, 3+) the Sword will give you an edge (.37 to .30). I will grant you that both weapons perform equally against Terminators (.45 for each).

Invulnerable saves are another ballgame too. Obviously, if you're fighting invulnerable armies (Harlequins, Daemons) the Halberd is straight up better.
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




 daedalus wrote:
I really wish I would have magnetized my options back when I put all my sqauds together.


From a playing perspective I feel you. I glued mine in 5th edition.
But from a rule of cool factor it just doesn't work that well. A lot of swords and halberds are two-handed. The poses just look stupid when you switch them to falchions. That would bother me even more..


On an unrelated note:
I saw people talking about a Land Raider Crusader full of Purgation squads with Psilencers and Draigo (or a GM).
Gating it to the enemy and then unloading 12 Psilencers with rerolls + the dakka from the crusader.
Pretty expensive for a one trick pony, but I honestly love the idea. What do you think? Would it have the same effect with just Stormbolters?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/11 20:38:30


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





 daedalus wrote:
I really wish I would have magnetized my options back when I put all my sqauds together. I think I only did the terminators, and only some of them at that.

I think at this point though, it's just gonna be "oh, and pretend every sword is a set of falchions".


You would try to pull some BS like that. I cannot possibly remember that a sword is two swords! Next game I'll count a land raider as a Stormlord.

Actually I'm wishing I'd have magnetized my paladins. I definitely wouldn't worry about magnetizing or swapping out the swords for falcons until after the codex drops. I'm betting they will make falcons and halberds cost something. Regular marines have a point cost difference for buying an ax vs a power sword so I suspect that it is coming for falcons and halberds seeing as they do more damage.

Has anyone found a good way to magnetize the 3+ infantry other than at the shoulders? It is kind of expensive in time painting and in money buying all the extra bits.

Has anyone had success with GK Terminators, or is the consensuses that Paladins are always better?

   
Made in us
Terrifying Wraith






Paladins are always better for 9 points your getting a Paragon who hits on 2+, an extra wound, and an extra attack as well as +1 leadership.

It also allows you to take 2 heavy weapons per unit if you want that. Still up in the air on that one. Storm Bolters and Psilencers seem to be the consensus best options with Storm Bolters in rapid fire range being best per point unless you have the points to spare.

 
   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

DarkOnes wrote:


You would try to pull some BS like that. I cannot possibly remember that a sword is two swords! Next game I'll count a land raider as a Stormlord.

Oh yeah? well, I'm gonna count these vodka bottles over here as drop pods. And then not use them!

Has anyone had success with GK Terminators, or is the consensuses that Paladins are always better?



Paladins are always going to be better for you specifically, because I won't be mulching them one per failed save with MY stormlord. Nine points to not lose a model every time you get nicked by a stray autocannon/vulcan cannon/inferno cannon/other 2 wound weapon is well worth it.

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in fi
Youth wracked by nightmarish visions




Titan

So, i need help to build the perfect competitive 2000 point list. I've done some research on the forums and while playing. And pretty much the only thing i'm sure about is that Stormravens are amazing.
I feel like the strikesquad in this edition is pretty good with those rapid 2 stormbolters and they have teleport strike.

The list so far:
Spoiler:
HQ 1: lord kaldor driago [240]
Troop 1: grey knight strike squad, 10 storm bolter, 10 pair of Nemesis falchion [210]
Troop 2: grey knight strike squad , 10 storm bolter, 10 pair of Nemesis falchion [210]

Dedicated transport 1: razorback, twin lascannon [115]
Dedicated transport 2: razorback, twin lascannon [115]

Flyer 1: storm raven gunship, twin lascannon, twin heavy bolter, 2 * storm strike missile launcher, 2 * hurricane bolter [289]
Flyer 2: storm raven gunship , twin lascannon,twin heavy bolter, 2 * storm strike missile launcher, 2 * hurricane bolter [289]


This list is made by a user named yowsaman and i feel like he is really onto something,but I removed some stuff which did not really perform that great for me.
The total point cost of this list is 1468 so its 532 shy of 2000. And i'm unsure what to add to the list. The list so far has means do destroy bigger stuff with 8 lascannon shots and also the means to deal with hordes with 132 bolter shots. (If draigo close by reroll)
I think the list lacks some anti-tougher than average guys weapons but i feel unsure what to add.
So help,critisism,suggestions always welcome.

Thanks in advance!

   
Made in us
Stalwart Strike Squad Grey Knight





 Zkery wrote:
So, i need help to build the perfect competitive 2000 point list. I've done some research on the forums and while playing. And pretty much the only thing i'm sure about is that Stormravens are amazing.
I feel like the strikesquad in this edition is pretty good with those rapid 2 stormbolters and they have teleport strike.

The list so far:
Spoiler:
HQ 1: lord kaldor driago [240]
Troop 1: grey knight strike squad, 10 storm bolter, 10 pair of Nemesis falchion [210]
Troop 2: grey knight strike squad , 10 storm bolter, 10 pair of Nemesis falchion [210]

Dedicated transport 1: razorback, twin lascannon [115]
Dedicated transport 2: razorback, twin lascannon [115]

Flyer 1: storm raven gunship, twin lascannon, twin heavy bolter, 2 * storm strike missile launcher, 2 * hurricane bolter [289]
Flyer 2: storm raven gunship , twin lascannon,twin heavy bolter, 2 * storm strike missile launcher, 2 * hurricane bolter [289]


This list is made by a user named yowsaman and i feel like he is really onto something,but I removed some stuff which did not really perform that great for me.
The total point cost of this list is 1468 so its 532 shy of 2000. And i'm unsure what to add to the list. The list so far has means do destroy bigger stuff with 8 lascannon shots and also the means to deal with hordes with 132 bolter shots. (If draigo close by reroll)
I think the list lacks some anti-tougher than average guys weapons but i feel unsure what to add.
So help,critisism,suggestions always welcome.

Thanks in advance!



1) I wouldn't get too high on Stormravens. They're just another T7 3+ save vehicle, which means there's plenty of shooty armies that can pop them in ~two turns. That said, Stormravens are best utilized as transports w/ Purifiers inside.
2) Those Razorbacks don't seem to be transporting anything... If you're looking for backline shooty, why take Razorbacks over Venerable Dreds?
3) GK Marine squads should always run a few (1-2) Warding Staves in case you need to make saves against high AP weapons in combat.
4) Pay two extra points for a Psilencer in each Strike squad. Thank me later.
5) Pay four extra points per model to turn your Strike squad into an Interceptor squad.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/11 23:06:57


 
   
Made in be
Monstrous Master Moulder






Seizeman wrote:
Grey knights having 1d3 smite would be ridiculously broken. The Rites of banishment rule is perfect as it is.


Actually, I'm just comparing it to the version Tzeentch aspiring sorcerers have. They can at least reach D3 wounds (does still require a 10+ though) and they don't have to deal with half range either.

The reason for a reduction are quite obvious, I just find it strange that GKs smite spam is nerfed a lot harder than the chaos version.... Especially for the heroes. For an army of so called "mighty psykers", I find the psychic phase to be incredibly underwhelming (again, compared to what other armies appear to be able to dish out).

Hopefully, the new dex will have a few more psychic toys to play around with.

The boy, I say, the boy is as sharp as a sack of wet mice... 
   
Made in au
Fresh-Faced New User




 TheMostWize wrote:
Does anyone run swords on their paladins? I think the swords look great but it seems falchions with the +1 attack wins out over the -3 AP is the difference that great that running swords would be insane or is falchions more about min/max.


What's optimal depends a lot on the target. Falchions are great on units with one base attack, but on paladins it's not always the best, as going from three attacks to four is only a 33% power increase. Against 2+ saves the extra AP from the sword provides the same boost.

Here's a bunch of plots in a grid with increasing toughness from left to right and increasing save from top to bottom. Each plot has the average number of failed saves a model with a particular weapon will inflict per fighting phase. The falchions are the best (or equal best) non-hammer pretty consistently, with the Halberd and Stave beating it at T5 and 8. The sword is supposed to shine at 2+ saves, but the extra attack provides the same value for the falchion.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/07/12 07:09:15


 
   
Made in us
Stalwart Strike Squad Grey Knight





Fraxyz wrote:
 TheMostWize wrote:
Does anyone run swords on their paladins? I think the swords look great but it seems falchions with the +1 attack wins out over the -3 AP is the difference that great that running swords would be insane or is falchions more about min/max.


What's optimal depends a lot on the target. Falchions are great on units with one base attack, but on paladins it's not always the best, as going from three attacks to four is only a 33% power increase. Against 2+ saves the extra AP from the sword provides the same boost.

I ran some simulations for Paladin Melee weapons. Here's a bunch of plots in a grid with increasing toughness from left to right and increasing save from top to bottom. Each plot has the number of times (out of 10.000) a model with a particular weapon will inflict a particular number of wounds (out of 12). The best weapons will be lower towards the left and higher towards the right of each plot; it means they inflicted a high amount of wounds more often.

In most cases, the weapons perform almost identically, with slight edges to one or another from time to time. The non-staves are equal at T4, 2+, there's a very tiny edge to the halberd at T5 2+, while the sword and falchion beat the halberd at most T6 & 7s by the same amount. The halberd is the best non-hammer at T8, while the stave performs best at 6+ saves where the extra AP of the other weapons is wasted.


Glad to see another mathammer enthusiast! As you may have seen I posted my findings on GK weapon options on pg. 9. Here, though, I think you've made a great contribution in that you've correctly noticed that Falchions are not as much an auto-take on Paladins as they are on Strike/Interceptor/Purifiers.

I think we can agree that if you're not able to pay for the Hammer, then either 2x Falchions or Halberd are your next best options in terms of damage output.

So here's the breakdown on Paladins equipped w/ 2x Falchions vs. Halberd... assuming your opponent has 3+ save.

Against T3: Falchions win
Against T4: Tied
Against T5: Halberd wins
Against T6: Falchions win
Against T7: Falchions win
Against T8: Halberd wins HARD

Given that spread, I'm inclined to still take Falchions on Paladins. Plus, if your Paladins have Hammerhand (and why wouldn't they?) then you'll find Falchions actually fare better.
   
Made in au
Fresh-Faced New User




Nairul wrote:


Glad to see another mathammer enthusiast! As you may have seen I posted my findings on GK weapon options on pg. 9. Here, though, I think you've made a great contribution in that you've correctly noticed that Falchions are not as much an auto-take on Paladins as they are on Strike/Interceptor/Purifiers.

I think we can agree that if you're not able to pay for the Hammer, then either 2x Falchions or Halberd are your next best options in terms of damage output.


I've just edited the plots, it was pretty hard to read the differences in simulation distributions so I went for average unsaved attacks, much easier to read plot with the same story.

I agree with either halberd or stave, and there's probably some niche for the stave if you want the 2+/4++ save on the paladins, maybe against geq with power weapons. I'm surprised that there's no reason to ever take a sword; though on characters with 4+ base attacks it will be the outright best against 2+ saves.

   
Made in us
Stalwart Strike Squad Grey Knight





Fraxyz wrote:


I've just edited the plots, it was pretty hard to read the differences in simulation distributions so I went for average unsaved attacks, much easier to read plot with the same story.

I agree with either halberd or stave, and there's probably some niche for the stave if you want the 2+/4++ save on the paladins, maybe against geq with power weapons. I'm surprised that there's no reason to ever take a sword; though on characters with 4+ base attacks it will be the outright best against 2+ saves.



Yeah, it could be wise to run at least 1 stave in your paladin unit and use that model to take saves against AP-3 weapons.

Swords are pretty much outclassed everywhere you look, as GK Characters who have the option should really be taking a Daemon Hammer.
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





How about wargear on Apothecaries and Ancients?


They/them

 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Ancient have no wargear choices, only falchions. Apothecaries, and every character really, should always wield a hammer.
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Seizeman wrote:
Ancient have no wargear choices, only falchions.
Paladin Ancients can have ranged weapons, if that works?


They/them

 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Wraith






Well it seems consensus then is:

Hammer>Falchions>Halberd>Sword>Staved

Taking halberds on Paladins won't cripple you which is good to know.

Obviously there comes a point where you have to just decide this is what I'm running if you are a WYSIWYG player. Contemplating running a Halberd squad and a Falchions squad. Also very interesting how the worse the opponent save the better the stave becomes.

I know there was some math on shooting but are storm Bolters the best option because of cheapness? I'm hesitant to take the Psilencers on Paladins because of the fact that they will always be moving and it saves 16 points in a squad of 5.

 
   
Made in us
Damsel of the Lady




 TheMostWize wrote:
Well it seems consensus then is:

Hammer>Falchions>Halberd>Sword>Staved

Taking halberds on Paladins won't cripple you which is good to know.

Obviously there comes a point where you have to just decide this is what I'm running if you are a WYSIWYG player. Contemplating running a Halberd squad and a Falchions squad. Also very interesting how the worse the opponent save the better the stave becomes.

I know there was some math on shooting but are storm Bolters the best option because of cheapness? I'm hesitant to take the Psilencers on Paladins because of the fact that they will always be moving and it saves 16 points in a squad of 5.


If you're running Paladins to be cheap, I'd say don't take 5 of them. If you're running them in 5's, then definitely grab the Psilencers. The volume of shots, D3 damage and minimal cost increase makes them a better buy than the Storm Bolter.
   
Made in us
Terrifying Wraith






Audustum wrote:
 TheMostWize wrote:
Well it seems consensus then is:

Hammer>Falchions>Halberd>Sword>Staved

Taking halberds on Paladins won't cripple you which is good to know.

Obviously there comes a point where you have to just decide this is what I'm running if you are a WYSIWYG player. Contemplating running a Halberd squad and a Falchions squad. Also very interesting how the worse the opponent save the better the stave becomes.

I know there was some math on shooting but are storm Bolters the best option because of cheapness? I'm hesitant to take the Psilencers on Paladins because of the fact that they will always be moving and it saves 16 points in a squad of 5.


If you're running Paladins to be cheap, I'd say don't take 5 of them. If you're running them in 5's, then definitely grab the Psilencers. The volume of shots, D3 damage and minimal cost increase makes them a better buy than the Storm Bolter.


I was toying with the idea of running 3 man units but not sure how well it works as has been brought up with buffs and sustainability. I'm running a paladin heavy force since I love the models trying to cover whatever bases I can.

 
   
Made in us
Damsel of the Lady




 TheMostWize wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 TheMostWize wrote:
Well it seems consensus then is:

Hammer>Falchions>Halberd>Sword>Staved

Taking halberds on Paladins won't cripple you which is good to know.

Obviously there comes a point where you have to just decide this is what I'm running if you are a WYSIWYG player. Contemplating running a Halberd squad and a Falchions squad. Also very interesting how the worse the opponent save the better the stave becomes.

I know there was some math on shooting but are storm Bolters the best option because of cheapness? I'm hesitant to take the Psilencers on Paladins because of the fact that they will always be moving and it saves 16 points in a squad of 5.


If you're running Paladins to be cheap, I'd say don't take 5 of them. If you're running them in 5's, then definitely grab the Psilencers. The volume of shots, D3 damage and minimal cost increase makes them a better buy than the Storm Bolter.


I was toying with the idea of running 3 man units but not sure how well it works as has been brought up with buffs and sustainability. I'm running a paladin heavy force since I love the models trying to cover whatever bases I can.


Comes down to how much you're relying on those buffs. So take a player like Quickjager for example. We know from this thread he's running pure Grey Knights and he doesn't want to waste points on too many buffing units, rather spending those points on buffed units. In that scenario, I'd agree with him; take the big Paladin units so you can get those buffs on.

Myself, I splash allies into my Grey Knights so A) I need points for those allies and B) they're not getting effected by GK buffers anyway. So keeping the Paladins cheap and self-contained is much more important a consideration. Give my Paladins 1 buffer unit, usually Draigo or a GM and that's it. No Ancient or Apothecary. An example for me might be a Vanguard Detachment with Paladins and Draigo backed by a Spearhead Detachment of Devastators and a Captain.

Your detachment matters too. Since you're a Paladin heavy force, if you're spamming Vanguard detachments you might want smaller units of Paladins so you can field more detachments and thus get more command points. If you're happy with one detachment, then getting the bigger team of Paladins with more buffs might work better for you.
   
 
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