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Well,a GK venerable dread with close combat weapon and autocannon is 185 points. That's 17 more points than the doomglaive. If you pick a regular SM one, it costs 3 point less but looses its psychic powers and all the benefits of being a GK (being targetable by your powers, being able to be transported and getting GM rerolls).

The dread combat weapon is actually pretty similar to the doomglaive. S9 is not that much different to S12 in most cases, as it is only relevant vs T5 and T6. About damage, the flat 3 damage of the regular dread weapon si better against everything with 3 wounds or less and worse against anything with more wounds. Considering that you want your dread to deal with vehicles and monsters, I think the 1d6 of the doomglaive has a slight edge. But really the biggest point is the dread CCW costs twice as much as the doomglaive, so all in all the doomglaive wins over the dread CCW.

About the psycannon vs the autocannon, the psycannon fires 50% more shots at half the range. Most of your army has a 24" range and your dread wants to move forward anyway, so just because of its damage potential the psycannon wins hands down. In fact I'd say the heavy psycannon is the best weapon available to any hybrid dreadnought. Even if you want to shoot at more than 24" some times, there's usually nothing else in your army with the same range, and 4 or 8 shots (if you play two of them) won't snipe any relevant targets.

Also the regular GK venerable only has smite while the doomglaive has an additional power. It's pretty useful not having to depend on another unit for your GoI.

 daedalus wrote:

kaal wrote:
Hi all. Really pleased to read all the tactic, feel and advice here !

But I have a question : I've just tested the doomglaive dreadnought and... It's me or he's irrelevant against a normal venerable dread with close combat weapon (S12 vs S9) and a autocanon?

I plan to use the custodes dread with spear as a doomglaive, so the model doesn't really matters but man, i'd like to use our SPECIAL ONE!

The Doomglaive does D6 wounds instead of 3. Also, ours is a psyker, so it can GoI itself around or whatever. That's about the biggest difference.

Keep in mind against toughness 1-4,7 & 8 they do the same damage. Against T5,6 bad 9+ is the only place a dreadnought ccw does more. Since a land raider is t8 I will be rare to face tougher?

 Smotejob wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

kaal wrote:
Hi all. Really pleased to read all the tactic, feel and advice here !

But I have a question : I've just tested the doomglaive dreadnought and... It's me or he's irrelevant against a normal venerable dread with close combat weapon (S12 vs S9) and a autocanon?

I plan to use the custodes dread with spear as a doomglaive, so the model doesn't really matters but man, i'd like to use our SPECIAL ONE!

The Doomglaive does D6 wounds instead of 3. Also, ours is a psyker, so it can GoI itself around or whatever. That's about the biggest difference.

Keep in mind against toughness 1-4,7 & 8 they do the same damage. Against T5,6 bad 9+ is the only place a dreadnought ccw does more. Since a land raider is t8 I will be rare to face tougher?

The only T9+ thing I can think of that's not Apocalypse is the Knight Porphyrion. T5 might make it handy against Custodes and Gravis armor though.

Does apoc exist at this point?

Serious question.

 daedalus wrote:
Does apoc exist at this point?

Serious question.

There's no Apoc Book I know of, but some tournaments, at least Nova that I saw, are holding 'Apoc Events' where you're encouraged to bring 2,500+ points and true Titans.

Hey guys,

I've been toying around with a GK list that's based more around toughness/more staying power than most PAGK lists. In fact, there are no PAGKs in this army. So far, this is what I came up with for 2k, using a combination of Vanguard + Spearhead detachments, netting me 5CP:

Vanguard detachment:

HQ:
Grand master Voldus 190

Elite:
5 Paladins Hammer , 4 Falchion 5 stormbolter 290
5 Paladins (Hammer , 4 Falchion 5 stormbolter 290
Venerable dreadnought , Twin autocannons 176
Venerable dreadnought , Twin autocannons 176
Venerable dreadnought ,Twin Lascannon , dreadnought weapon 200


Spearhead detachment:

HQ:
Brother Captain, stormbolter , Halberd 152

Heavy Support:
NDK , dreadfist , Greatsword , H. Psycannon 175
NDK , dreadfist , Greatsword , Gatlling Psilencer 165
NDK , dreadfist , Greatsword , H. Incinerator 185

TOTAL: 1999.

The plan is to place all the NDKs/DN on the table and have the paladins/characters DS. I tried keeping the NDKs fairly cheap.

I was also considering the Doomglaive dread, but I don't have the datasheet/pointscost for that one atm.

Any thoughts?

I have a one. What do you guys think about BC stern? It seems like he falls into the same place he always did that if you use his reroll you're really screwing yourself over later.

Thoughts?

I played a game with some Purifiers.

They're an interesting choice. Consider this:

A Purgation Squad with 4x Incinerators will cost a little over 150.
A Purifier Squad with 2x Incinerators will cost a little over 160.

The difference between the two is about 10 points. The difference is: the purifier squad has 2x more melee weapons, and has a D6 smite instead of a 1wound smite, but it loses 2d6 auto-hits with flamers at 8", both in shooting and overwatch.

I think I will experiment more with these guys.

 Marmatag wrote:
I played a game with some Purifiers.

They're an interesting choice. Consider this:

A Purgation Squad with 4x Incinerators will cost a little over 150.
A Purifier Squad with 2x Incinerators will cost a little over 160.

The difference between the two is about 10 points. The difference is: the purifier squad has 2x more melee weapons, and has a D6 smite instead of a 1wound smite, but it loses 2d6 auto-hits with flamers at 8", both in shooting and overwatch.

I think I will experiment more with these guys.

While they deal more damage output than a Psilencer, the Incinerator is significantly less damage-per-points especially at PAGK wargear costs (see my mathhammer on pg. 9). So if you're still committed to incinerators, then either squad will require a delivery system (AKA Storm Raven/Rhino/Land Raider). Gate of Infinity doesn't cut it, because you're outside of 8". And for Purifiers, even with the proper delivery system, you run a risk -- after suffering D6 smites (per unit) a smart opponent may be capable of removing their models such that your Incinerators are out of range in the subsequent shooting phase!

So I strongly urge you to consider Psilencers for all PAGK units. And while I value NDK's over a Purgation squad in the Heavy Support role, you can still get some nasty shooting out of a 5-man Purgation squad armed with Psilencers (113 points). Naturally, you should only run one of these squads and cast Gate of Infinity on them Turn 1 to ignore the -1 Penalty for moving w/ Heavy weapons.

Anyone here have experience with both Land Raiders and Storm ravens? Trying to decide which one I want. Land raider seems easier to manage because of turning limitations on flyers but the fact that a dread can jump in the Stormraven along with my Paladins and characters is a huge plus.

Consider a standard raider can only take 5 terminators not sure its worth the points even though it can bring some heavy shooting with its lascannons.

The crusader is an interesting prospect because of the extra transport capabilites but the fact that your giving up firepower makes it less appealing.

Taking this into consideration to me it seems like the Stormraven really is the only viable option because it fills the shooting roles of both variants and can transport the same capacities.

Spartan117xyz wrote:
I have a one. What do you guys think about BC stern? It seems like he falls into the same place he always did that if you use his reroll you're really screwing yourself over later.

Thoughts?

My thoughts:

1) No point running any Brother-Captain unless you're putting him with Purifiers.
2) Stern casting 2 powers is a nice bonus, as it allows for Smite AND Purge Soul. The regular Brother-Captain can only cast 1 power (should be Purge Soul as well!). Whichever one you take, they should almost always get Inspiring Presence WL Trait to make 'em Ld 10. Consider Deep Striking a Paladin Ancient for Ld 11.
3) Sadly, Stern can't take a Psilencer/Deamon Hammer while a regular Brother-Captain can. It feels bad to waist that 2+ BS/WS on just a Storm Bolter/Power Sword. But since he's running with deadly Purifiers, you may not even get a chance to use a Daemon Hammer after your Alpha Strike.
4) GK being heavily dependent on their Alpha Strike, "The Strands of Fate" rule is actually kind of nice synergy -- we want our Alpha Strike to hit as hard as possible, so if it does the job then you're NOT screwing yourself over later. Also, RAW "The Strands of Fate" can be used to re-roll a single failed hit or wound roll for ANY unit in your army, whilst the saving throw re-roll can only be for Stern.

TLDR If you're running Purifiers, take Stern over a regular Brother-Captain.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheMostWize wrote:
Anyone here have experience with both Land Raiders and Storm ravens? Trying to decide which one I want. Land raider seems easier to manage because of turning limitations on flyers but the fact that a dread can jump in the Stormraven along with my Paladins and characters is a huge plus.

Consider a standard raider can only take 5 terminators not sure its worth the points even though it can bring some heavy shooting with its lascannons.

The crusader is an interesting prospect because of the extra transport capabilites but the fact that your giving up firepower makes it less appealing.

Taking this into consideration to me it seems like the Stormraven really is the only viable option because it fills the shooting roles of both variants and can transport the same capacities.

My thoughts:

1) Lots of people in this forum love the Stormraven. I don't. I've played against plenty of shooty armies that pop a Stormraven on Turn 1. Normally that would be okay if it were only a delivery system. But the Stormraven is too expensive to be only a delivery system. It's got to shoot for at least 2 turns to get it's points back.

2) For pure delivery system, I prefer advancing Rhino(s) popping smoke. Ultra cheap and effective.

3) I have no idea why you would stick Paladins in a transport when they can Deep Strike. Transports seem better served for all the GK units that can't Deep Strike (i.e. Purifiers and Characters).





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elmir wrote:
Hey guys,

I've been toying around with a GK list that's based more around toughness/more staying power than most PAGK lists. In fact, there are no PAGKs in this army. So far, this is what I came up with for 2k, using a combination of Vanguard + Spearhead detachments, netting me 5CP:

Vanguard detachment:

HQ:
Grand master Voldus 190

Elite:
5 Paladins Hammer , 4 Falchion 5 stormbolter 290
5 Paladins (Hammer , 4 Falchion 5 stormbolter 290
Venerable dreadnought , Twin autocannons 176
Venerable dreadnought , Twin autocannons 176
Venerable dreadnought ,Twin Lascannon , dreadnought weapon 200


Spearhead detachment:

HQ:
Brother Captain, stormbolter , Halberd 152

Heavy Support:
NDK , dreadfist , Greatsword , H. Psycannon 175
NDK , dreadfist , Greatsword , Gatlling Psilencer 165
NDK , dreadfist , Greatsword , H. Incinerator 185

TOTAL: 1999.

The plan is to place all the NDKs/DN on the table and have the paladins/characters DS. I tried keeping the NDKs fairly cheap.

I was also considering the Doomglaive dread, but I don't have the datasheet/pointscost for that one atm.

Any thoughts?

My thoughts:

1) Replace Voldus with Draigo. Voldus is entirely unnecessary due to Psychic Focus and Draigo should be an auto-include in any GK list over 1000 points.
2) I see no point running a Brother Captain, or any other GK HQ for that matter. Double smite range isn't that helpful unless you're running Purifiers. So you could keep it at 4 CP, in which case you'd have to drop an NDK or something. If you desperately want 5 CP then you might as well take a non-GK HQ... I recommend a Librarian in Terminator Armour for the Librarius discipline!
3) You should be taking as many Psilencers as you can on those Paladin units. Also, see previous mathhammer (a few pages back) on Halberd vs. 2x Falchions.
4) If you want a Dreadnought with a CCW, take the Doomglaive instead of a normal Dreadnought.
5) I understand you need to satisfy Matched Play reinforcements rules, but starting NDKs on the table is a goddamn travesty. Here's what you can do instead... Give all NDK's teleporters. Combine the paladins into one unit of 10 models (4x Psilencers!). Start Paladins and 3x Dreadnoughts on the field. Turn 1 don't move the Paladins, Gate them! -- bring them to wherever you set up Draigo and the two shooty NDKs. Those Psilencers will be hitting on 3s rerolling misses. Now you're cooking with fire!

Yea I'm not looking for simply a delivery system. Looking for something that can deliver and do work.

The reason I need pallies in a transport is becauae my army consists of all Paladins dreads and characters. Can't deep strike them all because of 50 percent rule.

Sure it might not be the strongest list. But its going to look awesome and that's what I care most about. Have to find ways to optimize that.

Terminators can only fit in either a Land Raider or a Stormraven so those are my options.

 TheMostWize wrote:
Yea I'm not looking for simply a delivery system. Looking for something that can deliver and do work.

The reason I need pallies in a transport is becauae my army consists of all Paladins dreads and characters. Can't deep strike them all because of 50 percent rule.

Right -- well the Dreads don't deep strike, so they can work towards that 50% requirement. And I'm saying you might be able to finagle your list (via combining the 2x Paladin units into one) so that most of the Pallies and NDKs can start in Deep Strike. Remember, between the Pallies and NDKs one unit CAN and SHOULD start on the table in order to make use of Turn 1 Gate of Infinity, thus ignoring the -1 penalty to hit w/ Heavy weapons.

It's something to consider. There's no use paying for a Stormraven or Land Raider when you can build a similar-looking list without needing either.

Curious what you all think of purgation squads all toting psilencers popping out of assault cannon razorbacks

How about 3 purgation squads armed for melee (they are cheaper than strike or purifiers, thinking outside the box here) coming out of a landraider crusader?

 Smotejob wrote:
Curious what you all think of purgation squads all toting psilencers popping out of assault cannon razorbacks

How about 3 purgation squads armed for melee (they are cheaper than strike or purifiers, thinking outside the box here) coming out of a landraider crusader?

Both pretty solid picks which should work well together. You might want a GM or Draigo tagging along for those re-rolls though, considering all hitting on 4+

Are you sure about the purgation squads? I think they're the same points as strike squads (19+2). Definitely cheaper than purifiers though.

Spartacus wrote:

 Smotejob wrote:
Curious what you all think of purgation squads all toting psilencers popping out of assault cannon razorbacks

How about 3 purgation squads armed for melee (they are cheaper than strike or purifiers, thinking outside the box here) coming out of a landraider crusader?

Both pretty solid picks which should work well together. You might want a GM or Draigo tagging along for those re-rolls though, considering all hitting on 4+

Are you sure about the purgation squads? I think they're the same points as strike squads (19+2). Definitely cheaper than purifiers though.

Oh battlescribe was throwing me off ... Ok either works.

Not a terrible idea, but for 15 more points you could take 2 min squads of Paladins which are more durable. Just lose a smite and some storm bolter fire.

That's what I'd take, but either could be good. Strike squads at least fill the troop slots which is a bonus.

As a heavy support choice, I feel Purgations are outclassed by NDK's. But if you'd like to run them, they work best as 4x Psilencers. No transport required. Keep them in cover, preferably holding objectives in your deployment zone. Out of Psilencer range? Don't move them! Just gate, and stay hitting on 3+.

I don't run NDKs doom glaives are superior in my opinion and cheaper. That being said both of them starting on the board for sure.

I think purgation squads with Psilencers is excellent. If I run PAGK that's the first thing I'll be adding.

 TheMostWize wrote:
I don't run NDKs doom glaives are superior in my opinion and cheaper. That being said both of them starting on the board for sure.

I think purgation squads with Psilencers is excellent. If I run PAGK that's the first thing I'll be adding.

To each their own!

In a vacuum, I can understand your preference for Doomglaives over NDKs. But since I prefer shooty Draigo alpha-strike lists, I lean towards NDKs with Gatling Psilencer/Heavy Psycannon. The hit rerolls are just too juicy...

I'm running a GK battalion at 2000 points.

Currently, my 2 HQs are Draigo, and Voldus. But, I feel like until more psychic powers are released for GK, i have massive diminishing returns on HQs.

Voldus can cast all 3, but in reality, the only powers he ends up using are smite, and hammerhand.

In effect, i'm paying 190 for a solid beat stick, but a bit overcosted for what he does without the psychic. I am really never hurting for deny attempts.

So i can't really justify Voldus.

With the new keyword system, I have quite a few options.

Considering:

1. Celestine. She's really strong, and can act-of-faith herself into position pretty quick, and is very durable. I could bring her, and a Superia, and pick up 20 points.

2. Inquisitor Greyfax. Preventing my opponent from firing overwatch, or taking control of an enemy character to make a shooting attack, is pretty neat. For instance, getting her in range and taking control of Pask, would be just plain awesome. I can't say exact point costs but she'd leave me with somewhere between 104 and 106 points to play with.

3. Astartes Chapter Librarian in Terminator Armor. This is kind of a meh option for me, since i'd have to deep strike him, and my deep strike slots are crowded as it is. I would have to do some serious reworking on my list to fit this in.

Thoughts?

We're hurting in the anti-horde department. Any ideas? I would prefer something with high mobility, or something that could hitch a ride in a Stormraven.

Celestine is really, hands down, the best HQ for this kind of slot fulfillment.

1. She has Fly so she can assault enemy fliers.

2. She has a flamer for helping with hordes.

3. She can move 24" in a turn.

4. She can Deny the Witch spells cast at her.

5. She can fight 2 times if she starts your turn in combat.

Greyfax brings some great tools, but if you're just looking to maximize a HQ slot in the GK's with a non-GK source, I don't think Celestine can be beat.

Audustum wrote:
Celestine is really, hands down, the best HQ for this kind of slot fulfillment.

1. She has Fly so she can assault enemy fliers.

2. She has a flamer for helping with hordes.

3. She can move 24" in a turn.

4. She can Deny the Witch spells cast at her.

5. She can fight 2 times if she starts your turn in combat.

Greyfax brings some great tools, but if you're just looking to maximize a HQ slot in the GK's with a non-GK source, I don't think Celestine can be beat.

This is kind of what i'm thinking. And, having an extra unit on the table means i can put the NDK in deep strike.

If I were to go the route of taking Purifiers in either a Razorback or Storm raven.
Would it be worth taking an incinerator as a weapon upgrade, as in theory you'll be trying to get within that short range for the close range smite.

Or is it just not worth the points.

L0adedDice wrote:
If I were to go the route of taking Purifiers in either a Razorback or Storm raven.
Would it be worth taking an incinerator as a weapon upgrade, as in theory you'll be trying to get within that short range for the close range smite.

Or is it just not worth the points.

They seem overcosted to me. Compared to the psilencer you get about the same number of hits, less range, more strength and AP, but less damage, but for some reason it costs 14 points (vs 4 points for the psilencer). If a squad is getting out of a transport close enough to the enemy to use flamers, I'd just keep them kitted out with falchions and bolters and save your points. Take advantage of the excellent and free melee weapons GK have available.

Audustum wrote:
Celestine is really, hands down, the best HQ for this kind of slot fulfillment.

1. She has Fly so she can assault enemy fliers.

2. She has a flamer for helping with hordes.

3. She can move 24" in a turn.

4. She can Deny the Witch spells cast at her.

5. She can fight 2 times if she starts your turn in combat.

Greyfax brings some great tools, but if you're just looking to maximize a HQ slot in the GK's with a non-GK source, I don't think Celestine can be beat.

This absolutely.

Down side of new FAQ: We now count as moving after using Gate of Infinity.

Can't say we didn't expect that.

Did you move the model? Then the model moved.

Bigfashizzel wrote:
Did you move the model? Then the model moved.

Yeah but neckbeard's gotta neckbeard. I've heard this in store myself, 'it specifically says in the movement phase and he moved in the psychic phase'

Either way, I'm glad they clarified it.