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Martel732 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
At least GW had the decency to give each Heavy Wraithcannon 2 shots. Nothing was more frustrating than targeting something just to miss that 1 hit roll.

I liked it better at 1 shot, but given its new price, this is acceptable.

I was using the Inferno lance WK for the last year. I didn't like the "hoping for a 6" of the D shot.
I like the 3-5 shots per gun of the Inferno Lance and can't wait to see if its rules/price are better than the standard WK

But I'm not holding my breath. With how Melta works now, it is likely to be even more expensive.

-

Yeah, this is the same as Khorne Berzerkers vs Death Company.

The ammount of sinergyes and possible buffs that a Wraitknight can have is bastly superior of what a Imperial Knight can have. And they will only gain more sinergies when the codex is release, because they are part of a bigger faction full of sinergies.

A Imperial Knight is solid and powerfull but... is only a Imperial Knight, they are their own subfaction. They have 0 sinergies, maybe some Adeptus Mechanicus can repair them, but thats it.

And is not like you should cost in a vacuum a unit vs other units. Is like saying Kroots aren't good meele units. They souldn't bee! They are part of the Tau Empire army, you can't have a optimal meele unit compared with meele units of other more meele focused armies. The max a Tau can have is a "This unit is good enough in meele to Tau standarts", to take if you REALLY need something to endure a little in meele. At least if you want a balanced game. Point by point a Tau "meele" unit should always be worse than a Khorne one.

It seems a steal compared to the stompa

 oldzoggy wrote:
It seems a steal compared to the stompa

The Stompa didn't start out as a regular Heavy support MC that you could take multiples of.
The Stompa was a FW kit prior to GW making it plastic. It was never intended to be taken in multiples.

Basically, I am upset that this model came out with rules that encouraged players to buy 2+ of them, then the rules changed to make taking more than 1 is either:
A) a cheesy TFG thing to do or
B) so expensive that you are gimping the rest of your army by doing so.

To make matters worse if I want to take 2, I might as well take a third so I can get more Command points to make up for not having an army to support them.
If the WK had originally come out with appropriate rules and points cost that just 1 was enough, I wouldn't be so upset.
But I bought 1 and converted 2 more (as Wraithlords riding Vypers). My conversions won't see much of 8E and that bothers me.

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Just play all 3, it is no longer as cheesy. Also can give some pics of the wraithlord/ viper conversion? sounds awesome.

edit: found in gallery looks great.

Imperial Knights and Stormsurges will also average over 500 points, so they're at least on even footing now

 Galef wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
It seems a steal compared to the stompa

The Stompa didn't start out as a regular Heavy support MC that you could take multiples of.
The Stompa was a FW kit prior to GW making it plastic. It was never intended to be taken in multiples.

Basically, I am upset that this model came out with rules that encouraged players to buy 2+ of them, then the rules changed to make taking more than 1 is either:
A) a cheesy TFG thing to do or
B) so expensive that you are gimping the rest of your army by doing so.

To make matters worse if I want to take 2, I might as well take a third so I can get more Command points to make up for not having an army to support them.
If the WK had originally come out with appropriate rules and points cost that just 1 was enough, I wouldn't be so upset.
But I bought 1 and converted 2 more (as Wraithlords riding Vypers). My conversions won't see much of 8E and that bothers me.

-

For the record, the Stompa began as a GW kit I think. It was the Baneblade that started as a FW kit then became plastic. The Stompa, at best, existed as an Armorcast kit (that would have been vastly different from the plastic one) for 40k.
Also, this isn't exactly new. How do you think every Tyranid player felt when 4th edition encouraged you to buy no less than 6 Carnifex, only to have the next edition immediately invalidate it all by hiking the price to double? Sound familiar? At least the Wraithknight is only marginally worse than it's peer; the Carnifex at the time cost almost double that of the equivallent Dreadnought and Wraithlord, while barely able to keep up with either.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
EDIT 2: Also that loadout for the Questor Knight is invalid. For one a Heavy Stubber at minimum is required, and from what I glanced, the loyalist Questor Knight can't take two of the same arm cannons, so one of them has to either be the Thermal Cannon or a RF Battle Cannon (which comes with another heavy stubber). The Renegade Knight is the one that can take two of the same thing but it loses out on some keywords. At this point I seriously think that GW may have banked on keywords playing a bigger role in the game and that could have factored into the point cost. Whether or not they have overestimated will have to be seen when the game is fully released and the community at hand has tried it out.

Heavy stubber price was included, I just never bothered to talk about it given how useless it generally is. I also specified chaos questor knight originally (what they are labeled in the book), just didn't wanna type that out every time. Probably should've said chaos knight but oh well.

Also neither Knights have any keywords of usage. Inquisitors can buff the imperial knight's morale, or skarbrand could give it an attack. I saw nothing else.

 Grimgold wrote:
So delicious

Exalted and copied for brilliance.

At first glance the arbitrary ~80 overcosting of the wraith knight seems like a slap in the face. But I think it does bring a lot to an eldar list. A soulbursting wraithknight with access to fortune and guide could really put the hurt on the opponent while drawing fire away from more units fragile.

 Kaughnor wrote:
At first glance the arbitrary ~80 overcosting of the wraith knight seems like a slap in the face. But I think it does bring a lot to an eldar list. A soulbursting wraithknight with access to fortune and guide could really put the hurt on the opponent while drawing fire away from more units fragile.

Funny thing is it can only soulburst with the psychic power so to use that you need the yvraine or yncarne (very expensive). To get fortune and guide on top of that you need to take a farseer as well. So you have dedicated 1000 points of your list if not more on trying to get your wraith knight to be okay and yet nothing helps if you roll a 1 for damage or don't wound t8 which needs a 3+.

Remember friends it went from you die on a 6 to wound t6 on a 3+ this is a pretty big nerf with a massive points increase. Spirit seers are pretty bad cause they essentially need to be in melee for their ability to work. It gains no soulburst in ynnari either and took a huge points hike. We also lost our stomp which was great our immunity to poison which was great and our feel no pain bloody amazing. Nevermind all of its primary weapons being nerfed and then a huge cost increase to the 3rd most expensive unit behind a stompa and Lord of skulls it's really meh at best.

Titanicus wrote:

 Kaughnor wrote:
At first glance the arbitrary ~80 overcosting of the wraith knight seems like a slap in the face. But I think it does bring a lot to an eldar list. A soulbursting wraithknight with access to fortune and guide could really put the hurt on the opponent while drawing fire away from more units fragile.

Funny thing is it can only soulburst with the psychic power so to use that you need the yvraine or yncarne (very expensive). To get fortune and guide on top of that you need to take a farseer as well. So you have dedicated 1000 points of your list if not more on trying to get your wraith knight to be okay and yet nothing helps if you roll a 1 for damage or don't wound t8 which needs a 3+.

Remember friends it went from you die on a 6 to wound t6 on a 3+ this is a pretty big nerf with a massive points increase. Spirit seers are pretty bad cause they essentially need to be in melee for their ability to work. It gains no soulburst in ynnari either and took a huge points hike. We also lost our stomp which was great our immunity to poison which was great and our feel no pain bloody amazing. Nevermind all of its primary weapons being nerfed and then a huge cost increase to the 3rd most expensive unit behind a stompa and Lord of skulls it's really meh at best.

Delicious tears indeed.

At least it can Hit & Run.

I just thought of something. Since the WK and IK have the same stats and have to be taken in separate LOW detachments anyway, I could just take a pair of IKs as 'counts as' WKs
The only thing I'd be missing out on is my Farseer being able to Guide them. But there are other units I can do that on.
Worst case scenario is that I loose a stratagem.

Which warp spiders used to get for free.

If only they had made windriders even more expensive, as they deserved.

If Eldar players want the power, they should have to PAY for it.

Martel732 wrote:

If Eldar players want the power, they should have to PAY for it.

This is where you and I have always had a misunderstanding. I would rather pay less for less power, but gain more models. I don't care to have super powerful units if it means I only get half of them.
My typical 1850 lists for 7E are over 2250+. That 400pts is a lot of models that will now live out their lives in a dark box, never to see the table....or worse, they'll get eBay'd

-

Well, evidently, GW disagrees with your vision for WKs. Can't you just field you models as Wraithlords now?

And I think the shuricannon bike is too cheap at 32. The shuricannon should have been made heavy. More bike spam, yay.

Martel732 wrote:
Well, evidently, GW disagrees with your vision for WKs. Can't you just field you models as Wraithlords now?

And I think the shuricannon bike is too cheap at 32. The shuricannon should have been made heavy. More bike spam, yay.

They took a lot of nerfs past the weapon though. They lost jink they lost mobility lost jump shoot jump losing range taking a cannon vs scatter laser and a lot of it which is even worse when you are slower. The rend is nice but it's still 6s and marines get saves so does anything in cover so that's worse than normal rend. They also cost more and got moved out of troops the big command point detachment need lots of troops though the outrider one is fast attack based. They lost their 3+ save they did gain an extra wound but so did all bikers and many weapons are now dmg2 or d3 (effectivley 2). Large base size also doesnt help them against non existent templates either.They really did eat a lot of nerfs.

Did they lose move shoot move as well?

Titanicus wrote:

 Kaughnor wrote:
At first glance the arbitrary ~80 overcosting of the wraith knight seems like a slap in the face. But I think it does bring a lot to an eldar list. A soulbursting wraithknight with access to fortune and guide could really put the hurt on the opponent while drawing fire away from more units fragile.

Funny thing is it can only soulburst with the psychic power so to use that you need the yvraine or yncarne (very expensive). To get fortune and guide on top of that you need to take a farseer as well. So you have dedicated 1000 points of your list if not more on trying to get your wraith knight to be okay and yet nothing helps if you roll a 1 for damage or don't wound t8 which needs a 3+.

Remember friends it went from you die on a 6 to wound t6 on a 3+ this is a pretty big nerf with a massive points increase. Spirit seers are pretty bad cause they essentially need to be in melee for their ability to work. It gains no soulburst in ynnari either and took a huge points hike. We also lost our stomp which was great our immunity to poison which was great and our feel no pain bloody amazing. Nevermind all of its primary weapons being nerfed and then a huge cost increase to the 3rd most expensive unit behind a stompa and Lord of skulls it's really meh at best.

Oh gak, just went back and read that only infantry and bikes can soulburst naturally.

Its a hard thing being used to busted units being busted and then seeing them not anymore. Makes them seem "worthless" in comparison.

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

If Eldar players want the power, they should have to PAY for it.

This is where you and I have always had a misunderstanding. I would rather pay less for less power, but gain more models. I don't care to have super powerful units if it means I only get half of them.
My typical 1850 lists for 7E are over 2250+. That 400pts is a lot of models that will now live out their lives in a dark box, never to see the table....or worse, they'll get eBay'd

-

Or you can change your list from game to game? For variety, fun and all of that...
I have like 4k points of Tau and... I always change my army from game to game, I don't tend to spam units, I have a little of everything of my codex.

 auticus wrote:
Its a hard thing being used to busted units being busted and then seeing them not anymore. Makes them seem "worthless" in comparison.

I'm bathing in tears now... and I play Tau. Go an see Tau players, they are crying like theres no tomorrow

Martel732 wrote:
Did they lose move shoot move as well?

Indeed they lost that, which is good. Now they if they take scatter lasers and move at all (up to 16") they hit on 4+ instead of 3+
They can allows Advance 6" instead of D6" and since Shuricannons are assault, they can fire them after Advancing. Battle Focus allows them to ignore the -1 to hit for this

So over all a Shuricannon bike has a 46" threat range. 7E Scatter bikes had a 48" threat range.
But with no JSJ, they are closer to the enemy AND in Line of Sight. Again, I like this change. It makes tactics possible
I also like only having a 4+ armour and having 2 wounds makes up for not having Jink anymore.

Overall, I love the changes to Windriders, but no one in their right mind is going field Scatterbikes anymore. The Shuricannon bike is by FAR the better gun. Especially since it is only 2ppm, yes only TWO, more than an Twin Cat Windrider.

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what gets me is who didn't see this stuff coming, I mean did anyone NOT think eldar and Tau would be hit with the nerf bat?

BrianDavion wrote:
what gets me is who didn't see this stuff coming, I mean did anyone NOT think eldar and Tau would be hit with the nerf bat?

Well in fairness, they did ride pretty for several editions. There was just as much chance of them continuing their streak. Sadly, they rolled a 1 in the development phase.

Yeah, all the Eldar players crying about the Wraithknight? Us Tau players just got the same treatment for our beloved Riptides. But rather than sit in a corner and cry about it, I'm gonna see what I can do to work around the problem. This might be a chance for both Eldar and Tau armies to field some different stuff that has previously been gathering dust. And that's not a bad thing really.

BrianDavion wrote:
what gets me is who didn't see this stuff coming, I mean did anyone NOT think eldar and Tau would be hit with the nerf bat?

Well, so far it's one poster who is upset because the WK now costs significantly more than it did previously thus invalidating his army.

So far the Eldar changes don't seem so bad although a couple are a bit bewildering. The cost of DA (hardly an OP unit in 7th) is surely a typo...why on earth would they cost 4ppm MORE than an 8th ed tactical marine?? Guardian Defenders are unchanged so seem like a no brainer now. Worth nothing that the Power Level of DAs vs Guardian Defenders is 6 vs 4 whereas in terms of points it's 17 vs 8. Something definitely not right there.

Happy enough with the nerf to jetbikes but as the OP points out, there now appears to be poor internal internal balance between the three weapon options. Might give you a few lulz but it hardly makes it a sensible decision.

There's some meaty stuff in there as well though. No one seems to be talking about the Wave Serpent. And the Crimson Hunter is looking fierce.

Overall, there's nothing that concerns me too much. It's a completely new edition so it will take a while for the new meta to develop in any case.

 Torga_DW wrote:

Well in fairness, they did ride pretty for several editions. There was just as much chance of them continuing their streak. Sadly, they rolled a 1 in the development phase.

I've seen it all with Eldar and they have a reputation for cheese that is only partially warranted. There was some definite cheese in 2nd which is where the reputation began. In 3rd they had all the tools to take on the MEQ meta but the codex was frustrating to use as it had truly awful internal balance so it was a poor experience for both Eldar players and their opponents. 4th ed - the codex was better than the 3rd ed codex and it's the unkillable holo-falcons which live long in the memory. What else can you name from that codex that was broken? 5th was miserable for Eldar players and it's really only been since the 6th ed codex that full blown gorgonzola has made a comeback.

Enigma of the Absolute wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
what gets me is who didn't see this stuff coming, I mean did anyone NOT think eldar and Tau would be hit with the nerf bat?

Well, so far it's one poster who is upset because the WK now costs significantly more than it did previously thus invalidating his army.

So far the Eldar changes don't seem so bad although a couple are a bit bewildering. The cost of DA (hardly an OP unit in 7th) is surely a typo...why on earth would they cost 4ppm MORE than an 8th ed tactical marine?? Guardian Defenders are unchanged so seem like a no brainer now. Worth nothing that the Power Level of DAs vs Guardian Defenders is 6 vs 4 whereas in terms of points it's 17 vs 8. Something definitely not right there.

Happy enough with the nerf to jetbikes but as the OP points out, there now appears to be poor internal internal balance between the three weapon options. Might give you a few lulz but it hardly makes it a sensible decision.

There's some meaty stuff in there as well though. No one seems to be talking about the Wave Serpent. And the Crimson Hunter is looking fierce.

Overall, there's nothing that concerns me too much. It's a completely new edition so it will take a while for the new meta to develop in any case.

The crimson hunters looks good but without facings I'm not super sure how.useful all the pivots really are. I think the bigger thing is internal balance for sure.

I mean sure I'm miffed I can't use all my knights haven't touched them all since 6th. I've also not been the biggest fan of grab vehicles.

Hopefully maybe I can do some sort of pseudo guardian seer force supporting a revenant just wish fw would tell me what it costs...

Game can be interesting and there are a few units I like the look of I didn't before such as shinning spears.

But this topic is the wk in general and not eldar and yeah I do think the wk is probably underpowered definetly was op in 7th but now looks sadly weak.

Enigma of the Absolute wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
what gets me is who didn't see this stuff coming, I mean did anyone NOT think eldar and Tau would be hit with the nerf bat?

Well, so far it's one poster who is upset because the WK now costs significantly more than it did previously thus invalidating his army.

So far the Eldar changes don't seem so bad although a couple are a bit bewildering. The cost of DA (hardly an OP unit in 7th) is surely a typo...why on earth would they cost 4ppm MORE than an 8th ed tactical marine?? Guardian Defenders are unchanged so seem like a no brainer now. Worth nothing that the Power Level of DAs vs Guardian Defenders is 6 vs 4 whereas in terms of points it's 17 vs 8. Something definitely not right there.

Happy enough with the nerf to jetbikes but as the OP points out, there now appears to be poor internal internal balance between the three weapon options. Might give you a few lulz but it hardly makes it a sensible decision.

There's some meaty stuff in there as well though. No one seems to be talking about the Wave Serpent. And the Crimson Hunter is looking fierce.

Overall, there's nothing that concerns me too much. It's a completely new edition so it will take a while for the new meta to develop in any case.

 Torga_DW wrote:

Well in fairness, they did ride pretty for several editions. There was just as much chance of them continuing their streak. Sadly, they rolled a 1 in the development phase.

I've seen it all with Eldar and they have a reputation for cheese that is only partially warranted. There was some definite cheese in 2nd which is where the reputation began. In 3rd they had all the tools to take on the MEQ meta but the codex was frustrating to use as it had truly awful internal balance so it was a poor experience for both Eldar players and their opponents. 4th ed - the codex was better than the 3rd ed codex and it's the unkillable holo-falcons which live long in the memory. What else can you name from that codex that was broken? 5th was miserable for Eldar players and it's really only been since the 6th ed codex that full blown gorgonzola has made a comeback.

regarding Dire avengers, I notice Tarantos termies are 5 PPM more, and naked the only advantage they have is an extra inch of movement. so I suspect a fast movement score is a biiiig reason for certain units points inflation this edition

That doesn't explain the internal balance between GDs and DAs which have the same movement.

Also, you can't compare the points difference between two heavy infantry units with the points difference between basic line infantry units. That difference is a much smaller % of their individual cost in the case of the former.

And what great advantage does an extra inch of movement provide? More of an advantage than a better Save, Strength and Tougness?

Dire Avengers aren't worth 17ppm in a million years. If their weapons were -3AP as standard, then maybe.

Anyway, there is an 8th ed Eldar thread where I've brought this up so we should maybe take this discussion there.

Wraithknight IS very expensive in this set of rules but the shooting options are decent. My preferred loadout will probably be 2x heavy wraithcannon and 2x scatter.

Regardless, access to a 5++ that is always active and the fact that it can be buffed more than Knights (guide/reroll 1s from Autarch/Spiritseer and FORTUNE). It can now be the most resilient big guy out there IMO.