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So the full rules are here: http://imgur.com/a/XNwSg

What do you guys think? Looks to be some quite heavy nerfs, in many cases needed, in others not... tons of points raises. I don't know why Howling Banshees lost the "no overwatch" rule on their masks for example, it was fluffy and not too powerful. Twin-linked weapons doing double shots means a boost to vehicles. I'm disappointed in the Falcon though, the Pulse Laser is WORSE than a twin-linked Bright Lance and it can't transport as many models as a Wave Serpent. Meh. The Avatar is an absolute beast in melee! Much more survivable as well since he gets both a normal/invulnerable save and a special 5+ save after that. Rangers might see play now to snipe out characters. Shining Spears got an extra attack both otherwise the same... can't see them being much better in practice since you get no extra attack on the charge and that's the only time they're any good. Wraiths lost a point of toughness :(

2 wound Windriders are nice. Shame they became Fast attack choices. I guess I'll be using that detachment that allows FA are 'core'

Kinda pissed that the WK is OVER 500pts! It needed readjustment, but I was hoping for it to get toned down, not priced up. I have 3 that I'll never be able to take without it being my whole army.

A few big things: Windriders are FA with a 4+ save and no equivalent to Jink. Shining Spears have "Jink" - not by name, but a 4++ against shooting, plus 3+ armor save. JSJ is gone. Looks like Jetbikes can Fall Back from combat and then shoot, though. I think Spears actually look pretty good now, especially with their laser lances getting AP -4.

Scatter lasers are still beefy, but not as beefy as before. Scatpacks will now be hitting on 4+ (unless they sit still) and wounding on a 3+ against T4, which means they're now a lot worse against MEQs. SM and kin, CSM and Necrons can cheer now. Orks, too, since they get their T-shirt saves against them again. (Doesn't matter much, but something is better than nothing. And, err, anti-infantry gun kills light infantry? Say it ain't so!) No more JSJ afterward cuts down the frustration factor a lot.

Pulse laser is worse than a twin brightlance? Err, not quite - the fixed 3 damage is more predictable. Its maximum isn't as good, but it'll never hose you with 1-2 damage.

Otherwise, most of it looks good to me. We may actually see something other than "spam Windriders, Warp Spiders and Wraithknights". Yay!

Windriders were always suppose to be FA choices. The only reason they were troops was because GW didn't want the 4th ed codex to invalidate Saim Hann Craftworld armies (which swapped the compulsories from Troops to FAs) and subsequent codex writers just never got the memo (it's why CSM Cult Troopers were troops in 4th edition and only 4th edition).

As for Banshees, I think this is an overall buff to them. They lost the deny overwatch ability but retained their "always strike first" thing (before it was just raising their initiative to 10). The 8" movement will mean that transports won't be that much of a priority for them, but it also helps that they can now assault out of a transport, making Banshees in wave serpents deadly. That +3 to charge distance is also awesome, as it means an average threat radius of 11"! And also the buff to power swords means that they're no longer restricted to just blending MEQs and hordes, but can actually threaten heavy-armored units (even if they're only wounding on a 5 or a 6).

I am happy that wraithknight cost as much as an imperial knight. Good.
Mostly I like the points increases too.
Tables should feel bigger...
Banshees should ignore overwatch on a leadership -2.

trying to wrap my head around the harlequins. 4+ invuln is nice, but it seems their cc weapons got worse (although applies to all attacks, not just 1 I guess). What is up with the neuro disruptor? It's terrible now and costs more than the fusion pistol. Otherwise, things looking fun right now.

Mostly looks good. 17 points per Dire Avenger makes them one of the worst units in the game though. I'd rather just take twice as many Guardian Defenders in most cases.

 jeff white wrote:
I am happy that wraithknight cost as much as an imperial knight. Good.

WKs are 80pts MORE than IKs now. For no reason whatsoever. And IKs come standard with a 5++ against ranged weapons.
WKs have to buy a 5++ and sacrifice their best shooting to do this.
Once weapons are added, IKs are ~400pts. WKs are over 500.

There is no reason for this to have happened. This is an egregious overcorrection.

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 Galef wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
I am happy that wraithknight cost as much as an imperial knight. Good.

WKs are 80pts MORE than IKs now. For no reason whatsoever. And IKs come standard with a 5++ against ranged weapons.
WKs have to buy a 5++ and sacrifice their best shooting to do this.
Once weapons are added, IKs are ~400pts. WKs are over 500.

There is no reason for this to have happened. This is an egregious overcorrection.

-

Wraithknight still jump right?
And my stock knight will be almost 500 after weapons...

So far everything looks solid, but I did not play in 7th. I'm not sure how Craftworld stacks up with Ynnari though; Soulburst seems a lot better than Battle Focus.

I had no intention of playing jetbike spam anyways.

 jeff white wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
I am happy that wraithknight cost as much as an imperial knight. Good.

WKs are 80pts MORE than IKs now. For no reason whatsoever. And IKs come standard with a 5++ against ranged weapons.
WKs have to buy a 5++ and sacrifice their best shooting to do this.
Once weapons are added, IKs are ~400pts. WKs are over 500.

There is no reason for this to have happened. This is an egregious overcorrection.

-

Wraithknight still jump right?
And my stock knight will be almost 500 after weapons...

No, not Jump anymore (though it never really should have been). Their stats are almost identical, yet the IK comes with a better save and is MUCH less once you put weapons on it.
I honestly cannot think of why a WK is significantly more than an IK (other than to make non-Eldar players happy, which is a great way to piss off other players)

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Are the movement characteristics different from IKs?

I know eldar players aren't used to overcosted units, but i'll need to see all rules to determine if the new wk is fairly costed. Sounds much better than the way it is now. It's better for a unit to be slightly inefficient than be an auto-take.

What is the deal with exarchs? Are they free upgrades and we only pay for thier equipment? Dire avengers seem over costed by them selves but run them with asurman and they seem really good. I like the changes to Phoenix lords and thier points seem far more reasonable. Really like the different combos that they provide to thier aspect warriors. Really like the new avatar. Wondering though if the character status is of set by being a monster. I like the idea of 30 avengers with Asurman and Avatar as a core foot army to build from.

From what I've seen so far "small things" got cheaper and "big things" got more expensive.
Overall this is actually good for the game as you should be able to take tons of infantry compared to titan-like stuff.

I'm just a sad panda who has no logical use for these anymore:

I made those back in 6E to be a pair of special Saim-Hann style WKs. They were my main anti-tank for the list. I made them with the intention of fielding them together
7E came and 1 WK was almost too much cheese for people to handle, so these (my favorite conversions I've ever done) had to be repurposed. I started using them as "counts as" Gk DreadKnights.
But the rules for DKs no longer seem to fit as the 'shunt' move is gone.
So I was hoping that 8E would make WKs fair to bring 2 again, but not so expensive that I can't bring the rest of my army.

No matter how 'balanced' these changes are (and overall I think they are), I am upset that it means I can't field the models I want without asking my opponent to play over 2000pts.

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While I don't play 8th, I can't argue with many of the changes. I'm glad WK are expensive. Even too expensive. Nice to see Jetbike guardians moved back to fast attack where they belong. Nice to see Banshees balanced vs. Scorpions (both being ideal for different purposes).

Glad to see Shining Spears actually serve a purpose.

Very glad to see Dark Reapers return to missile launchers (basically) --- I don't know how long they were stuck with toned down marine-spam weapons.

Phoenix Lords look amusing. Will take if I ever actually play 8th.

 Kaughnor wrote:
What is the deal with exarchs? Are they free upgrades and we only pay for thier equipment? Dire avengers seem over costed by them selves but run them with asurman and they seem really good. I like the changes to Phoenix lords and thier points seem far more reasonable. Really like the different combos that they provide to thier aspect warriors. Really like the new avatar. Wondering though if the character status is of set by being a monster. I like the idea of 30 avengers with Asurman and Avatar as a core foot army to build from.

I am pretty sure Exarchs are just the unit leader (unless specified otherwise e.g. Crimson Hunter Exarch), they aren't extra and you pay for equipment.

For example, a squad of 5 dire avengers might be

5 Dire Avengers (exarch included) @ 10 points/model = 50 points (base unit)
4 Avenger Shuriken Catapults @ 7 points/model = 28 points (weapons)
Exarch w/Powerglaive (+4) and Shimmershield (+20)

Total of 102 points for the 5-man squad.

I just realized something that made me die a little inside:

Windriders are not 20ppm....they're 30ppm. You have to add their 10ppm Twin catapults
If Shuricannons are only 12ppm, why the heck would you ever take Twin Cats? For only 2pts difference, you get more Str and twice the range.
Sure you go from 4 shots to 3, but by woundind thinks on 3+ instead of 4+ or even 5+ and by being able to stay farther away from assaults, I don't see that being an issue.
And 8E Shuricannon bikes are only 5pts more than 7E ones. easily worth the extra wound and less opponent complaining.

Let the age of the Shuricannon Bike begin!

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 Galef wrote:
I just realized something that made me die a little inside:

Windriders are not 20ppm....they're 30ppm. You have to add their 10ppm Twin catapults
If Shuricannons are only 12ppm, why the heck would you ever take Twin Cats? For only 2pts difference, you get more Str and twice the range.
And 8E Shuricannon bikes are only 5pts more than 7E ones. easily worth the extra wound and less opponent complaining.

-

Seems like they should have started at 30ppm instead of 20ppm. But we'll see.

Yeah, the whole "stock model and purchase all upgrades" is a bit weird and I see a LOT of confusion/questions happening since all the unit entries state that they come with XYZ, but in matched play you ignore that line and you have to buy the upgrades even if it says they already have them in addition to any upgrades you purchase. I can see a lot of incorrect points due to that fact alone, and feel that should have needed clearer writing.

Luckily I was waiting to assemble my Jetbikes until I saw what the new rules were; now I think I'm going to go with two Shuriken Cannons and 1 Scatter Laser.

Wayniac wrote:
Yeah, the whole "stock model and purchase all upgrades" is a bit weird and I see a LOT of confusion/questions happening since all the unit entries state that they come with XYZ, but in matched play you ignore that line and you have to buy the upgrades even if it says they already have them in addition to any upgrades you purchase. I can see a lot of incorrect points due to that fact alone, and feel that should have needed clearer writing.

Well... that is quite wierd and counterintuitive. I was just starting to wonder about this myself. It seems like such a strange thing to do.

Overall impressions are... the points seem all over the place and bizarre to say the least. Really want to see how this ends up playing, but Harlequins seem like they are going to have a bad time.

 Galef wrote:
2 wound Windriders are nice. Shame they became Fast attack choices. I guess I'll be using that detachment that allows FA are 'core'

Kinda pissed that the WK is OVER 500pts! It needed readjustment, but I was hoping for it to get toned down, not priced up. I have 3 that I'll never be able to take without it being my whole army.

At leats he doesn't cost 900p barebones as a Stompa

wow...I am sitting on 50+ dire avengers and still waiting for an edition that they are worth being the main aspect warriors for the elder

I hope some elder cheese will make them worthwhile....sigh

 admironheart wrote:
wow...I am sitting on 50+ dire avengers and still waiting for an edition that they are worth being the main aspect warriors for the elder

I hope some elder cheese will make them worthwhile....sigh

With Battle Focus and Asurman, looks like a durable core that is in range to shoot on turn 1.

 Sarigar wrote:

 admironheart wrote:
wow...I am sitting on 50+ dire avengers and still waiting for an edition that they are worth being the main aspect warriors for the elder

I hope some elder cheese will make them worthwhile....sigh

With Battle Focus and Asurman, looks like a durable core that is in range to shoot on turn 1.

They still seem to get very expensive and while the ++ is nice they honestly still will die to bolter fire. We are still t3 w1 infantry.

I think the Avengers will be ok if you build to thier strengths. The access to invul saves overwatch at 5+ and being able to fall back out of combat to set up other avenger squads to shoot sounds like there is opportunity for them to be played tactically. With Asurman and Avatar backing them up they have 4++ saves and ignore morale. Those two characters are solid counter attack beat sticks as well.

Dire Avengers also took it in the pants when Guardians magically become almost equivalent stat-line...which is fething stupid.

You check your units equipment, including the stuff that it comes equipped with by default.

You flip over to the points page with the point value for the corresponding weapon(ry).

You see what they cost, if anything.

That simple.

I had my first stab at an Eldar List. This seems not too off-base for Eldar:

Vypers are move blockers, everything else shoots and stays in formation to soulburst. Farseer Guides the Rangers (who mostly are there to kill heavies/hidden autocannons) and saves Doom either for "large squads" (which the Reaper Launchers mess up) or for tanks.

Farseer w/ Singing Spear, Doom and Guide - 120
5 Rangers - 100
3 Shuriken Cannon Jetbikes - 96
3 Shuriken Cannon Jetbikes - 96
3 Shuriken Cannon Jetbikes - 96
3 Shuriken Cannon Jetbikes - 96
Vyper w/ 2 Shuriken Cannons - 88
Vyper w/ 2 Shuriken Cannons - 88
5 Rangers - 100
2 Dark Reapers & Exarch w/ Tempest Launcher - 110
2 Dark Reapers & Exarch w/ Tempest Launcher - 110

Total - 1000

I'm really happy Farseers get to pick powers again.