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 MagicJuggler wrote:
I had my first stab at an Eldar List. This seems not too off-base for Eldar:

Vypers are move blockers, everything else shoots and stays in formation to soulburst. Farseer Guides the Rangers (who mostly are there to kill heavies/hidden autocannons) and saves Doom either for "large squads" (which the Reaper Launchers mess up) or for tanks.

Farseer w/ Singing Spear, Doom and Guide - 120
5 Rangers - 100
3 Shuriken Cannon Jetbikes - 96
3 Shuriken Cannon Jetbikes - 96
3 Shuriken Cannon Jetbikes - 96
3 Shuriken Cannon Jetbikes - 96
Vyper w/ 2 Shuriken Cannons - 88
Vyper w/ 2 Shuriken Cannons - 88
5 Rangers - 100
2 Dark Reapers & Exarch w/ Tempest Launcher - 110
2 Dark Reapers & Exarch w/ Tempest Launcher - 110

Total - 1000

Oh hello anon

Overall I'm happy, lots of new changes to get used to, but I can't say anything looks 100% awful.
Banshees I think will not see a ton of play as I really thought S4 in a marine filled world held them back more than anything, but hopefully I'm wrong as I love my girls.
Scorpions seem boss, gonna love them to death, the bonus to hit vs units in cover rule is odd, wonder if it works while in melee?
Avengers stayed mostly the same though now they are 17 ppm (i think), which sucks considering banshees are only 16 (again maybe)
Hawks are now rapid fire 2 which seems interesting. I worry that being S3 guns now without any AP ruined the goal of killing low armored squads. That plus the grenade changes are different, good, but different.
Spiders stayed again mostly the same, super mobile murder machines, nice that they will not loose models as much to jumping as before.
Reapers now with almost-missile launchers and 2 wounds per shot i can't think of anyone better to kill the new marines, bikes, vehicles, and especially fliers
Dragons will kill vehicles and monsters, enough said really
Shining spears look fun, certainly worth considering now with 2 W and 4++ against shooting
I think I can live with this all as a whole, somewhat sad that we can't shoot then move with battle focus anymore as I liked the strike and fade idea, but well worthy sacrifices to have the new edition be (hopefully) more balanced overall, and finally the chance to put warlocks next to aspect squads and have it work! Time to convert some custom warlock models.

As an aside holy gak necron reanimation protocols is just dumb, always the chance to come back on a 5+ every turn no matter what. I see many a 20 man warrior blobs never leaving my table in the future.

Should have never been gone honestly.

What points do you all think the new edition will be played at? I kinda think that 1850 is the new 1500 point list. Been reading the Eldar rules all day. Points seem out of wack but so far I'm really digging war walkers with shuriken cannons.
for 85 points you get scout, move 10+1d6 battle focus with no penalties to shooting 6 rending strength 6 shots. Tough 6 with 6 wounds and 4+.5++ save seems real good for new edition. Also like the idea of 3 vipers with 6 shuriken cannons moving 20 inches while escorting a wave serpent.

So Tacticals went down to 13ppm and Dire Avengers have gone up to 17ppm....riiiiight.

I have a strong feeling this is just typical GW proofreading (lack thereof)...which is why this idea of referring to two lists to get the points cost for a single model is a really bad idea. Everthing so far has indicated that basic troops are going down in cost.

I'm guessing that the base cost of a DA should be 5-7 points based on the power level of 5 DAs when compared with 10 GDs. In this case the two balance systems are clearly incongruent.

What abilities would indicate that a DA should cost over twice as much as a Guardian? It's not Bladestorm as standard shuriken catapults also get that. The overwatch ability is nice but hardly justifies the extra cost.

The flyers seem like standouts to me. They're all pretty durable for their cost, at about 15 points per T6 wound and Hard to Hit (and 5++ for the Dark Eldar flyers). The Craftworld flyers are the only ones that can pivot after moving, and they also come with BS 2+, so being forced to move isn't a big problem for them at all.

Crimson Hunters put out 4 anti-tank shots. So they have more firepower than and similar durability to War Walkers for their cost, generally. The Dark Eldar flyers don't tend to have quite as much sustained firepower but are more durable, and the Voidraven Bomber can do an enormous amount of damage to a large marine squad in one turn with its bomb. There will be matches where it justifies its inclusion in a list in the first movement phase.

Several of the other vehicles also look pretty solid, and if you're already loading up your list with multi-wound high-T you might as well go whole hog.

On-foot shooting doesn't look very good to me by comparison. Maybe Warp Spiders. Rangers might also be pretty good, and they synergize with Doom (though note that they're strictly Character and maybe monster/vehicle killers now). Dark Reapers still have the problem where they're going to die as soon as something looks at them funny and they cost 36 ppw. Granted you can use the Exarch to absorb the first hit if you don't use the Tempest Launcher (but it has as much firepower as 3 other Dark Reapers combined so why wouldn't you).

Putting shooty infantry in vehicles looks really good for Dark Eldar now. Craftworlders could do it too but alpha strikes are a lot less powerful now -- your Fire Dragons are probably not going to blow up a tank in one volley. Wraithguard /seem/ aggressively costed but I'm a little worried about small multi-wound models since people are likely to be taking lots of multi-damage weapons anyway. But the open-topped DE transports just became much better gun platforms.

My big worry with stuff like Jetbikes, though this applies also to anything that's fragile for its cost, is that lots of lists now have access to coordinated, no-scatter Deep Striking, /and/ people can freely divide up shooting among different units. Like, consider MagicJuggler's list with all the small Jetbike squads. I haven't spent much time looking at what the Marines can do now but what happens when someone Deep Strikes in up to 50% of their army on turn 1 and weakens many of your squads before starting to finish them off? You're not getting much out of Soulburst at that point and you're starting at a big disadvantage.

Edit: Also, something interesting is that the Ynnari psychic power Word of the Phoenix can give /any/ Ynnari unit a Soulburst activation, not just those units which have Strength from Death. So, vehicles and the giant walkers. Now, only Yvraine and the Yncarne can actually cast it, but that's a really flexible ability, and is also just generally way above the curve for psychic powers.

Edit2: Actually, some of the stuff I'm pointing out as really solid choices sort of illustrates the problem with these small multi-wound models. A stock Razorwing Jetfighter is 175 points. In one Shooting Phase it expects to kill nearly 3 T4 W2 4+ models. Granted, Disintegrator Cannons are basically designed to kill Jetbikes, but the defensive profile here is just not that different from Primaris Marines. You don't get invulnerable saves anymore and cover only makes you just as durable as a marine standing in the open.

I can take the 'nerf' to scatterbikes but the massive increase in the cost of basic bikes is a bit hard to take.

I think that mass deep striking can now be mitigated by using transports. Wave Serpents in particular are going to be hard nuts to crack. As you point out, even a smaller FD squad will struggle to one shot most vehicles so holding your army in transports is going to be an effective way of countering aggressive deep strike play.

Have you ever tried Dark Reapers in a Wave Serpent? They don't suffer any penalties for moving so I think this will be an excellent way to use them. They can actually synergise with other units rather than sitting in the backfield waiting to be shot at.

How the hell is the +1 to WS going to work on Succubus (or Lelith since it seems she just started to say yes to drugs). Do they touch automatically? Is anybody a bit surprised by the fact that Succubus, pearless duelists, are worse in combat than Archons?

It kind of sucks that the FW corsairs weren't put into that book. The launch of 8th would have been a golden opportunity.

 Madoch1 wrote:
It kind of sucks that the FW corsairs weren't put into that book. The launch of 8th would have been a golden opportunity.

All of the dedicated fw armies will come out with the fw indexes shouldn't really be a problem. I would have like to have seen them day 1 along with our other fw stuff though for sure.

 Galef wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
I am happy that wraithknight cost as much as an imperial knight. Good.

WKs are 80pts MORE than IKs now. For no reason whatsoever. And IKs come standard with a 5++ against ranged weapons.
WKs have to buy a 5++ and sacrifice their best shooting to do this.
Once weapons are added, IKs are ~400pts. WKs are over 500.

There is no reason for this to have happened. This is an egregious overcorrection.

-

No! You eldars get to enjoy the WKs as gmc and being 290pts standard stock (no upgrades) compared to IKs at 325 standard stock (no upgrades) as shv which sucked!

Feel the nerf bat swing at your balls!

Eldar deserved the biggest heaviest thickest smelliest nastiest piece of wood rammed up their nerf hole.

 CadianGateTroll wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
I am happy that wraithknight cost as much as an imperial knight. Good.

WKs are 80pts MORE than IKs now. For no reason whatsoever. And IKs come standard with a 5++ against ranged weapons.
WKs have to buy a 5++ and sacrifice their best shooting to do this.
Once weapons are added, IKs are ~400pts. WKs are over 500.

There is no reason for this to have happened. This is an egregious overcorrection.

-

No! You eldars get to enjoy the WKs as gmc and being 290pts standard stock (no upgrades) compared to IKs at 325 standard stock (no upgrades) as shv which sucked!

Feel the nerf bat swing at your balls!

Eldar deserved the biggest heaviest thickest smelliest nastiest piece of wood rammed up their nerf hole.

see this is just dumb.....really dumb.

Eldar due to be toned down? Absolutely agree with you. However, this version was to be about balance, not a version of making one faction better or nerfing another. If you think otherwise, then you are probably the kind of guy that I wouldn't want to play against anyway.

 CadianGateTroll wrote:
Eldar deserved the biggest heaviest thickest smelliest nastiest piece of wood rammed up their nerf hole.

Wow


I played most of 2nd and all of 3rd and a bit of 4th. I was not an elder player of the editions that made you bitter. SO WHY WOULD YOU WANT a returning player to suffer from game imbalance???

Seems you would rather have the game shrink in player base than welcome new and old players back in. I love my PDF, and non wych/non raider DE and my Footdar. The last thing I want to play is an unbalanced enemy in either way. (Like when my shuriken catapults were designed to be better than a storm bolter but got nerfed to 12" and then Tau come along with 30"....wtf.

I for one am excited to play Eldar. My biggest issue is deciding if I want regular Craftworlds (Asuryani now, I guess) or Ynnari and do a mix.

I'm all for making a model pay for its CURRENT rules. But asking for a model that was PREVIOUSLY undercosted to overpay now for rules it no longer has is ridiculous.

I don't want the WK to be less or more than an IK. If they start with the same stat line, they should have the same base points cost. Their weapons should be what makes the points cost different.

-

My thoughts:

Right now, I don't see any reason to play Craftworld over Ynnari as Strength from Death is way more powerful than Battle Focus and Ancient Doom. Especially as in Ynnari, you can deliver Incubi + Drazhar or Harlequins with a wave serpent thanks to Ynnead's Will. Throw in a cheap Warlock with Word of the Phoenix and it just gets better as they will get two fight phases (who says death stars are dead?)! I'm sure this will change once the Craftworld receives its first book and they make Aspect warriors and jetbikes troops and such.

Drukhari seem decent. The new Power from Pain is good and now reliable. They can still spam Dark lances/Blasters/Blast Pistols, Raiders are not 1-shot disabled, Mandrakes got a nice buff ( I can see them being awesome objective grabbers), Urien with a bunch of Wracks or Grotesques looks like a good objective camper as well, and the Void Raven looks playable with it's new bomb rule. I think they will play much like they always have in that if you can get the alpha strike off on your opponent you're in good shape.

They were a little heavy handed with the Wraithknight. The Wraithcannon should have been given a fixed dmg value of 4 or 5 (considering a star cannon is fixed 3) instead of D6 dmg. Paying that amount of points and rolling 1's or 2's is just sad trombones. I think titanic ghostglaive and scattershield is the loadout I predict we'll see now (if at all) with it just hugging terrain and running into melee as it should 1-round most vehicles in the game now or put the other 'titanics' into their lower brackets.

I cannot believe that dire avengers are 17 points while space marines are 13 points a piece... who playtested this??
You can give them some buffs (avatar, asurmen, autarch) but that shouldn't drive their price up. Every other army can buff their troops as well.
Dire avengers must be some of the worst troops choices I have ever seen

Imwishbthat bikes went back to one weapon upgrade for every three models...

 jeff white wrote:
Imwishbthat bikes went back to one weapon upgrade for every three models...

The model kit assures that will never happen,.

RE: Bikes I do think there is some viable reasons for shuriken cannons over scatter lasers now. Since I haven't assembled mine at all yet, I plan to do 2 shuriken cannons and 1 scatter laser, so basically keeping a 1 in 3 scatter laser ratio.

Martel732 wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
Imwishbthat bikes went back to one weapon upgrade for every three models...

The model kit assures that will never happen,.

It used to be an eldar army limitation... Regardless of what came in the kit it was a rule.

The limitation was removed because of the model kit. It's never going back.

I'm just happy that the shurican cannon has become the better weapon. I've always defaulted to this weapon as it is iconically Eldar, and will suit mobility themed armies (even foot). I don't have jetbikes, as I usually run sky weavers instead, but still excited to see the cannon back as the default weapon.

pingu wrote:
I cannot believe that dire avengers are 17 points while space marines are 13 points a piece... who playtested this??
You can give them some buffs (avatar, asurmen, autarch) but that shouldn't drive their price up. Every other army can buff their troops as well.
Dire avengers must be some of the worst troops choices I have ever seen

Um dire avengers are 10 pts per model.

 Venerable Ironclad wrote:

Um dire avengers are 10 pts per model.

And that is their point per model WITHOUT wargear, Avenger Catapult is 7ppm extra that you have to add. So DA's final cost is 17ppm

 bullyboy wrote:
I'm just happy that the shurican cannon has become the better weapon. I've always defaulted to this weapon as it is iconically Eldar.

I completely agree. I was taking 2 Shuricannons + 1 Scatter per unit already. I only had the Scatter laser in due to range, but I can now take them all Shuricannon like I want.

-

I've said for a while that da are better than tacs because of the weapon.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I had my first stab at an Eldar List. This seems not too off-base for Eldar:

Vypers are move blockers, everything else shoots and stays in formation to soulburst. Farseer Guides the Rangers (who mostly are there to kill heavies/hidden autocannons) and saves Doom either for "large squads" (which the Reaper Launchers mess up) or for tanks.

Farseer w/ Singing Spear, Doom and Guide - 120
5 Rangers - 100
3 Shuriken Cannon Jetbikes - 96
3 Shuriken Cannon Jetbikes - 96
3 Shuriken Cannon Jetbikes - 96
3 Shuriken Cannon Jetbikes - 96
Vyper w/ 2 Shuriken Cannons - 88
Vyper w/ 2 Shuriken Cannons - 88
5 Rangers - 100
2 Dark Reapers & Exarch w/ Tempest Launcher - 110
2 Dark Reapers & Exarch w/ Tempest Launcher - 110

Total - 1000

Oh hello anon

Im not sure if the guy on tg ripped it from here or hes posting it from there. I did notice this exact post on tg yesterday though.

 D6Damager wrote:
My thoughts:
Especially as in Ynnari, you can deliver Incubi + Drazhar or Harlequins with a wave serpent thanks to Ynnead's Will.

only the two Ynnari charcters have Ynneads will. DE cant ride in Eldar vehicles. etc...

 mgrosh wrote:

 D6Damager wrote:
My thoughts:
Especially as in Ynnari, you can deliver Incubi + Drazhar or Harlequins with a wave serpent thanks to Ynnead's Will.

only the two Ynnari charcters have Ynneads will. DE cant ride in Eldar vehicles. etc...

You also can't even take drazhar with ynnari.

 jeff white wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
Imwishbthat bikes went back to one weapon upgrade for every three models...

The model kit assures that will never happen,.

It used to be an eldar army limitation... Regardless of what came in the kit it was a rule.

And that was back when you bought your bikes individually. So you could totally buy twenty Shrieker jetbikes (with the shuriken cannons), you just couldn't actually play with them unless you bought forty normal jetbikes too.

So stop giving us this "but the kit..." nonsense. Kits come with the parts to build them in illegal configurations all the time. I've run across kids who put plasma cannons in the hull mount on their Russes because they didn't read the Codex first, and kids who put both sponsons on the same side of their Land Raiders because nothing told them they couldn't, why should jetbikes have their legality depend on the kit? Unless you want to argue that Tactical Squads should obviously be able to take a flamer, meltagun, plasmagun, grav-gun, heavy bolter, and missile launcher and shouldn't be able to take any other heavy weapons, because that's what the kit comes with?

(Or came with. I haven't actually bought a Tactical Squad kit in a long time, that may be the 4e-vintage kit with a grav-gun tacked on.)