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Martel732 wrote: I've said for a while that da are better than tacs because of the weapon.
I agree the weapon is better, but DAs are still only T3, 4+sv. DAs and Tac Marines should be roughly the same cost, with DAs maybe, MAYBE being 1ppm more.
We'll see who ends up being correct in the long run here. I'm betting on the 1 per 3 restriction never coming back. I think the kit is the major reason, but that's just my view. Regulation of these weapons will have to be point based.
Martel732 wrote: I've said for a while that da are better than tacs because of the weapon.
I agree the weapon is better, but DAs are still only T3, 4+sv. DAs and Tac Marines should be roughly the same cost, with DAs maybe, MAYBE being 1ppm more.
T3 and 4+ means less now than it did before, I think. I guess we'll find out. Faster things in 8th ed seem to pay for it. DA are MUCH faster than tacs, who have to take a rhino to move.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/01 18:03:16
AnomanderRake wrote: Unless you want to argue that Tactical Squads should obviously be able to take a flamer, meltagun, plasmagun, grav-gun, heavy bolter, and missile launcher and shouldn't be able to take any other heavy weapons, because that's what the kit comes with?
This example doesn't work in comparison to Windriders. It would only be the same if a box of 10 marines came with 10 melta, 10 heavy bolters, 10 lascannons, 10 Plasma guns, 10 flamers, etc
Windriders come with enough weapons for EACH model to have the same weapon upgrade.
At any rate, Windriders are Fast Attack now, not Troops so people should stop complaining
Martel732 wrote: DA are MUCH faster than tacs, who have to take a rhino to move.
Not sure how 1" is "MUCH" faster, but ok. Sure Battle Focus allows them to Advance and shoot normally, but they could do that in 7E, with a re-roll to the Run. They get no re-roll now, but the +1" to move.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/01 18:37:00
Galef wrote: I just realized something that made me die a little inside:
Windriders are not 20ppm....they're 30ppm. You have to add their 10ppm Twin catapults
If Shuricannons are only 12ppm, why the heck would you ever take Twin Cats? For only 2pts difference, you get more Str and twice the range.
And 8E Shuricannon bikes are only 5pts more than 7E ones. easily worth the extra wound and less opponent complaining.
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Seems like they should have started at 30ppm instead of 20ppm. But we'll see.
they lost jump shoot jump so really they have o stay in los and within weapons range so I would actually say they are much more reasonable, 30 ppm then a gun would mean nobody would take them .
compared to a space marine bike the gain (assuming scatter bikes) 2 inches of movement, and + 12" range on the scatter laser which does str 6 (no longer wounding on 2's unless T3 models) no ap
they share th same WS and BS
space marine bikes get +1 str +1 T and +1 save at S4 T5 sv 3+ and can take 2 special weapons now if I am reading this correctly so 2 special weapons plus a sarg.
scatter bikes are 3 points more per model pricier... they have different roles, but I think they toned the windriders down to on par with marine bikes and with the changes to armor that str 6 ap- is not nearly as bad. as they are now a FA too competing with the slot I foresee much less of them.
though i have a thought (has been known to happen occasionally they are even good ones)... the elder start collecting box now lacks a troop
I maintain that the Dire Avengers cost must be an error, it doesn't make sense with their power rating: 5 Banshees cost 4 power while 5 Dire Avengers cost 3 power despite the fact that the latter cost 1 more ppm. Makes no sense.
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Its a shame Scorps & Banshees seem to remain weak with only 2 attacks per model... Units such as Harlequins & Incubi look far better on paper.
Needing Troops is now not important. The Outrider detachment requires 1HQ and 3 Fast Attack and gives +1CP.
And many of the Start Collecting boxes were formations and now only fit into the Patrol detachment.
Khaine wrote: I maintain that the Dire Avengers cost must be an error, it doesn't make sense with their power rating: 5 Banshees cost 4 power while 5 Dire Avengers cost 3 power despite the fact that the latter cost 1 more ppm. Makes no sense.
the only reason I can think of for the Avenger catapult having a cost is because Autarchs can take them, so they need a points value. What they should have done then, if make the base cost of DAs about 7-8ppm.
Let's also keep in mind that Exarchs can now be included as NO additional cost above the initial Aspect + wargear.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/01 18:45:13
Khaine wrote: I maintain that the Dire Avengers cost must be an error, it doesn't make sense with their power rating: 5 Banshees cost 4 power while 5 Dire Avengers cost 3 power despite the fact that the latter cost 1 more ppm. Makes no sense.
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Its a shame Scorps & Banshees seem to remain weak with only 2 attacks per model... Units such as Harlequins & Incubi look far better on paper.
Scorpions are going to assassinate those pesky sniper rifle units
Adding to my earlier thoughts: because differences in strength and toughness don't matter nearly as much now, Star- and Disintegrator Cannons are competitive with Bright/Dark Lances even for anti-tank purposes.
Consider Starcannons. Against everything except T7, they are at worst still 2/3 as likely to wound per shot as a S8 Lance. Even against T7 they are still half as likely to wound. But they get twice as many shots! And they do 3 damage reliably compared to the Bright Lance's noisy 3.5. They have slightly worse penetration but again this means that at worst the Lance's target is only 25% more likely to fail its save.
Consider some profiles:
T7 4+: SC is 14% worse than a BL T8 4+: 14% better
Note that the BL's advantage against good saves goes away if the target has a 5++. So it's really only T7 that gives Starcannons a hard time. Disintegrator Cannons are pretty similar except they also suffer against T6.
Of course these guns are also just hugely better against targets with fewer wounds. So you're not really choosing between anti- heavy infantry and anti- tank anymore when it comes to Cannons vs Lances; now you're mostly paying a small premium to just add anti- heavy infantry capability to your anti- tank gun.
Concerned that while the standard Troupe gets a much needed 4++ and the Troupe Master gets a welcome five wounds, that leaves the Solitaire in light of the WS changes and no Eternal Warrior to be little more than a Troupe Master with slightly more frills. You kind of wish they had a rule that subtracts one from to-hit roll results targeting him.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/01 19:13:05
MagicJuggler wrote: I had my first stab at an Eldar List. This seems not too off-base for Eldar:
Vypers are move blockers, everything else shoots and stays in formation to soulburst. Farseer Guides the Rangers (who mostly are there to kill heavies/hidden autocannons) and saves Doom either for "large squads" (which the Reaper Launchers mess up) or for tanks.
Khaine wrote: I maintain that the Dire Avengers cost must be an error, it doesn't make sense with their power rating: 5 Banshees cost 4 power while 5 Dire Avengers cost 3 power despite the fact that the latter cost 1 more ppm. Makes no sense.
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Its a shame Scorps & Banshees seem to remain weak with only 2 attacks per model... Units such as Harlequins & Incubi look far better on paper.
Scorpions and Banshees have always been 'niche' rather than 'take all comers' combat monsters. With command points, Scorpions will hopefully be able to enter the table and reliably pull off a charge. Banshees have a significant threat range so I think I'll end up running them in a Wave Serpent. Remember that they're now hitting everything on 3s and Autarchs allow you to re-roll 1s.
It's nice that Eldar received a bit of a survivability boost overall now that S5 no longer wounds on 2s.
The DA points cost is definitely a mistake. There's no rationalising it. A tactical marine squad will still outshoot DAs in a 1v1 firefight. I agree that there has been a narrowing but it isn't enough to justify a DA costing nearly 1/3 more than a tactical marine. That's just silly.
Is there a rule that says that all units come with no gear?
On each of the unit cards it says that this unit comes with these weapons. The way i read it was that a dire avenger is 10 pts with weapon and grenade and a wraithknight already comes with 2 heavy wraithcannons which if you remove you take 100 pts and then replace with sunfire or glaive/shield which cost more.
To me that is how i read it but if it is stated somewhere or by GW that this is the way it is supposed to be done then i will be very confused about some of the points costs. DA are the worst of the lot imo.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/02 02:57:58
Hey, so I have a question for people playing craftworld eldar: what do you think of the ynnari army? I ask because, of the the three eldar factions, craftworld seem to have the weakest rule, and I'm curious how many plan to swap battle focus for soulburst,
On each of the unit cards it says that this unit comes with these weapons. The way i read it was that a dire avenger is 10 pts with weapon and grenade and a wraithknight already comes with 2 heavy wraithcannons which if you remove you take 100 pts and then replace with sunfire or glaive/shield which cost more.
To me that is how i read it but if it is stated somewhere or by GW that this is the way it is supposed to be done then i will be very confused about some of the points costs. DA are the worst of the lot imo.
Each Index has about a 2 page layout with all the points for each Faction. Most have 2-3 lists.
1 for units (does not include wargear points),
1 for said wargear
and 1 with units that includes wargear points (this is for Characters that have set options)
So the datasheet tells you want the unit composition is and what wargear it comes equipped with. It is up to you to do all the math to make sure all units have their basic loadout accounted for.
Each Index has about a 2 page layout with all the points for each Faction. Most have 2-3 lists.
1 for units (does not include wargear points),
1 for said wargear
and 1 with units that includes wargear points (this is for Characters that have set options)
So the datasheet tells you want the unit composition is and what wargear it comes equipped with. It is up to you to do all the math to make sure all units have their basic loadout accounted for.
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I see the rule now, kind of sucks as necron warriors are clearly better then a DA at 12 pts. More range, better toughness + reanimation, and -1 AP. Since you can no longer move shoot move you would have to keep anything with 24 inch weapons with rapid fire out of that 12 inch range. Really DA's should be 10-12 pts total. Better to use big units guardians now i think.
SilverAlien wrote: Hey, so I have a question for people playing craftworld eldar: what do you think of the ynnari army? I ask because, of the the three eldar factions, craftworld seem to have the weakest rule, and I'm curious how many plan to swap battle focus for soulburst,
Yeah in my view there's almost no reason for CWE not to field as Ynnari. Dark Eldar probably benefit but they're losing much more tangible benefits. Harlies have the worst time of it, if I was fielding them alongside a Ynnari force I'd probably field them as non-Ynnari units.
SilverAlien wrote: Hey, so I have a question for people playing craftworld eldar: what do you think of the ynnari army? I ask because, of the the three eldar factions, craftworld seem to have the weakest rule, and I'm curious how many plan to swap battle focus for soulburst,
Yeah in my view there's almost no reason for CWE not to field as Ynnari. Dark Eldar probably benefit but they're losing much more tangible benefits. Harlies have the worst time of it, if I was fielding them alongside a Ynnari force I'd probably field them as non-Ynnari units.
Yeah, when I finally got around to looking at the eldar that was the impression I got. Dark eldar are a maybe, craftworld are a yes, and harlies are a no. CWE even have kinda mediocre psychic abilities compared to ynnari as well, which is a little sad.
SilverAlien wrote: Hey, so I have a question for people playing craftworld eldar: what do you think of the ynnari army? I ask because, of the the three eldar factions, craftworld seem to have the weakest rule, and I'm curious how many plan to swap battle focus for soulburst,
Yeah in my view there's almost no reason for CWE not to field as Ynnari. Dark Eldar probably benefit but they're losing much more tangible benefits. Harlies have the worst time of it, if I was fielding them alongside a Ynnari force I'd probably field them as non-Ynnari units.
Yeah, when I finally got around to looking at the eldar that was the impression I got. Dark eldar are a maybe, craftworld are a yes, and harlies are a no. CWE even have kinda mediocre psychic abilities compared to ynnari as well, which is a little sad.
Only problem there is the revenant powers are currently restricted just to the triumvirate. Normal eldar psychers are unfortunately still stuck in the not so fun zone. Admittedly I see fortune being decently good on massive low such as the titans, the wk is probably to overcosted to invest powers into.
Ynnari look strong just as faction rules they just seem better especially in an edition that looks like it favours msu. Exarchs are also free so that fits well with msu needed for strength from death.
The ynnari hq choices don't look super good to me but I want to try the yncarne at least I bought the triumvirate and have only ever used them in a heavily proxied game vs my brother.
Some of the aspect warriors look very expensive to me but there are also some units that look pretty sweet. Wave serpents for one don't seem to have gone up nearly as much as other transports and still are good survivable gun platforms. Shinning Spears seem to have come of brilliantly. I'm rather liking dark reapers to but I always did.
SilverAlien wrote: Hey, so I have a question for people playing craftworld eldar: what do you think of the ynnari army? I ask because, of the the three eldar factions, craftworld seem to have the weakest rule, and I'm curious how many plan to swap battle focus for soulburst,
Yeah in my view there's almost no reason for CWE not to field as Ynnari. Dark Eldar probably benefit but they're losing much more tangible benefits. Harlies have the worst time of it, if I was fielding them alongside a Ynnari force I'd probably field them as non-Ynnari units.
The value to CWE will probably come from the unique strategems that will be available when you run a specific craftworld keyword.
My group will predominantly be playing with power levels and not points, so the minute point issues won't really affect me.
Personally I am just glad I can field my eldar united army (corsair, craftworlds, Harlequin, dark eldar, and the Ynnari) in a single detachment. Probably going to play most games at power level 100-150.
I'm mainly happy but I don't see why the Banshee Executioner has a hit penalty which I find weird and I'm unsure about how good Scorpions Stealth rule will be.
Why the Yncarne has a 4++ for being an Avatar but Khaine doesn't baffles me. They should nerf Yncarne or buff Khaine.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
The way I'm reading this I could take, say, Haemonculi, Grotesques, Taloi and Reavers then add Yrvaine and some Rangers all in the Battallion chart. The Covens stuff would keep PFP and I could have the Rangers and Reavers be Ynarri.
Does that look right to everyone else? If so I could equally take Ynarri incubi and Drazhar. He would just keep PfP and they would get SfD.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/02 10:44:19
Drager wrote: The way I'm reading this I could take, say, Haemonculi, Grotesques, Taloi and Reavers then add Yrvaine and some Rangers all in the Battallion chart. The Covens stuff would keep PFP and I could have the Rangers and Reavers be Ynarri.
Does that look right to everyone else? If so I could equally take Ynarri incubi and Drazhar. He would just keep PfP and they would get SfD.
I'm not sure. The Ynarri section details how to make an "Ynnari army", not "Ynnari units" or "Ynarri detachments". Armies are not well defined in the rulebook, as opposed to detachment and units.
From what I gather, it seems that "army" is always used to refer to the sum of all your detachments. In that case, "Ynnari army" could refer to an army that only contains Ynnari models, in which case becoming Ynarri is an all-or-nothing deal, and you couldn't mix Ynnari with non-Ynnari Aeldari.
Or Ynnari army only refers to an army that contains Ynnari units, in which case you can give the Ynnari keyword (with appropriate rule changes) to units on a one-to-one basis.
Does anyone have more insight on what Ynnari army could refer to exactly?
Enigma of the Absolute wrote: What abilities would indicate that a DA should cost over twice as much as a Guardian? It's not Bladestorm as standard shuriken catapults also get that. The overwatch ability is nice but hardly justifies the extra cost.
6" range over standard catapult is big(2 big 6" range increases. 12->18 and 24->30) as it means when you are in shooting range enemy isn't in average charge range with infantry. But 7 pts is too steep even for that.
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Galef wrote: Needing Troops is now not important. The Outrider detachment requires 1HQ and 3 Fast Attack and gives +1CP.
Not important but generally if you have 2 units that are same you want them to be troops rather than any other choise.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/02 11:27:23
I am trying to get my head around the Shadowseer's Twilight Pathways physic power- it says it can target any Harlequin unit that is visible and within 3" of the psyker.
Does that mean that the 'seer could cast it on a Starweaver? Could he cast it on a Starweaver that he is embarked in?
Drager wrote: The way I'm reading this I could take, say, Haemonculi, Grotesques, Taloi and Reavers then add Yrvaine and some Rangers all in the Battallion chart. The Covens stuff would keep PFP and I could have the Rangers and Reavers be Ynarri.
Does that look right to everyone else? If so I could equally take Ynarri incubi and Drazhar. He would just keep PfP and they would get SfD.
I'm not sure. The Ynarri section details how to make an "Ynnari army", not "Ynnari units" or "Ynarri detachments". Armies are not well defined in the rulebook, as opposed to detachment and units.
From what I gather, it seems that "army" is always used to refer to the sum of all your detachments. In that case, "Ynnari army" could refer to an army that only contains Ynnari models, in which case becoming Ynarri is an all-or-nothing deal, and you couldn't mix Ynnari with non-Ynnari Aeldari.
Or Ynnari army only refers to an army that contains Ynnari units, in which case you can give the Ynnari keyword (with appropriate rule changes) to units on a one-to-one basis.
Does anyone have more insight on what Ynnari army could refer to exactly?
Yeah, I saw that, but army doesn't seem to be defined anywhere. If they meant it to mean that you can't take none Ynarri models that share a keyword I would hope they would have been more explicit instead of leaving it to implication.
I find it hilarious that Phoenix Lord Asurmen is, in the US and Canada sites at least, listed under "Adeptus Ministorum" on the GW Website.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Melissia wrote: I find it hilarious that Phoenix Lord Asurmen is, in the US and Canada sites at least, listed under "Adeptus Ministorum" on the GW Website.
Who you think gave the hover-techonology to the Imperium to make that new Primaris tank?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/03 00:26:57
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
7000 
