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2017/06/01 14:21:34
Subject: Re:If you have been playing long enought you already lived though this at least once
Galas wrote: Flyrant was OP. All the Tyranid codex was useless, but the Flyrant was very powerfull. They have toned the Flyrant down and basically have made EVERYTHING else much more usefull. How a Tyranid player can be unhappy with 8th?! They are one of the most upgraded faction, like Orks!
I play Tau and they are one of the factions that has receive more the nerfbat. And I'm not mad! Thats a necesity for the good of the game! How can people be so blind? Is not what is good for you, is what is good for the game. The greater good!
I'll tell you how a Tyranid player can be unhappy with 8th. When a tyranid player spends around 300 $ on Flyrants, Mawlocs, Ripper Swarms, Mucolid Spores... And the next edition they get a huge nerf (Swarms "deep striking" at 9" from any enemy and spores at 12" is really, really useless, and the Mawloc entry is TOTAL trash, not to mention flyrant is practically useless now). So, now after I spent around 300 $ in all that stuff... they become unplayable. What can you play now? Genestealers, broodlord, tervigon, gaunts... I'll have to spend around 300 $ again to have a playable army... Yep, that makes me so happy.
Well, as somebody else mentioned: If your mindset is about spamming certain OP units, to get an advantage over other players, you don't deserve it any better. Its nothing PRO about netlisting and beating up players who want to play a more generalized and fluffy army instead of Spamhammer. Now your Models aren't OP anymore, just as mediocre as everything else. The weaknesses of your army result from the lack of options due to spamming, not from weak rules.
You shouldn't blame the hammer for not being capable to saw. Blame yourself for not owning the right tools!
From what I have seen so far, everything looks promising in general. Many interesting doors have opened. There are some things I am not sure if I will like them, but it is far to early to tell. I think even though the rules are basically all available now, nobody is really capable of making a statement about what will work and what not until they have tried it in several games, cause there are to many changes. Hence, I don't get all the whining.
I play Guard, Marines, Nids, DE, Necrons and Tau. Nothing I saw makes me feel like I wanne cry, but there were a lot of things which made me smile like:
- Plasma rules (Executioner)
- Genestealers + Broodlord
- Pulsecarbine for Strike Teams are now an interesting pick (shoot while running from the enemy due to new ranged assault weapons mechanics)
But thats just my opinion...
So... it is my fault for not buying genestealers during 7th ed, which were totally useless. Ok, got it.
2017/06/01 14:55:31
Subject: Re:If you have been playing long enought you already lived though this at least once
Galas wrote: Flyrant was OP. All the Tyranid codex was useless, but the Flyrant was very powerfull. They have toned the Flyrant down and basically have made EVERYTHING else much more usefull. How a Tyranid player can be unhappy with 8th?! They are one of the most upgraded faction, like Orks!
I play Tau and they are one of the factions that has receive more the nerfbat. And I'm not mad! Thats a necesity for the good of the game! How can people be so blind? Is not what is good for you, is what is good for the game. The greater good!
I'll tell you how a Tyranid player can be unhappy with 8th. When a tyranid player spends around 300 $ on Flyrants, Mawlocs, Ripper Swarms, Mucolid Spores... And the next edition they get a huge nerf (Swarms "deep striking" at 9" from any enemy and spores at 12" is really, really useless, and the Mawloc entry is TOTAL trash, not to mention flyrant is practically useless now). So, now after I spent around 300 $ in all that stuff... they become unplayable. What can you play now? Genestealers, broodlord, tervigon, gaunts... I'll have to spend around 300 $ again to have a playable army... Yep, that makes me so happy.
Well, as somebody else mentioned: If your mindset is about spamming certain OP units, to get an advantage over other players, you don't deserve it any better. Its nothing PRO about netlisting and beating up players who want to play a more generalized and fluffy army instead of Spamhammer. Now your Models aren't OP anymore, just as mediocre as everything else. The weaknesses of your army result from the lack of options due to spamming, not from weak rules.
You shouldn't blame the hammer for not being capable to saw. Blame yourself for not owning the right tools!
From what I have seen so far, everything looks promising in general. Many interesting doors have opened. There are some things I am not sure if I will like them, but it is far to early to tell. I think even though the rules are basically all available now, nobody is really capable of making a statement about what will work and what not until they have tried it in several games, cause there are to many changes. Hence, I don't get all the whining.
I play Guard, Marines, Nids, DE, Necrons and Tau. Nothing I saw makes me feel like I wanne cry, but there were a lot of things which made me smile like:
- Plasma rules (Executioner)
- Genestealers + Broodlord
- Pulsecarbine for Strike Teams are now an interesting pick (shoot while running from the enemy due to new ranged assault weapons mechanics)
But thats just my opinion...
So... it is my fault for not buying genestealers during 7th ed, which were totally useless. Ok, got it.
Your fault is just focussing on the editions most effective units for maximum advantage. To think this will never change is your mistake. Its the same for Triptide/broadside-Spammers, Scatterbike/Wraithknight and so on. Also seems to me like you think a unit is only useful if it is more powerful than the others. So because a flyrant isn't a nobrainer anymore, its useless. Nevermind.
I like competitive play, but I have no sympathies for Spam-Players who abused the poor rules of 7ed for own advantage and have now an quiet ineffective army, because it lacks variety and options. Such players usually don't care if their opponents have fun playing against them. So why should I care if they are angry that they have to spent another 300 bucks to catch up with the casual players?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/01 14:56:09
2017/06/01 15:02:24
Subject: If you have been playing long enought you already lived though this at least once
MasterOfGaunts is right. If you only focus on units that are effective during one edition, you will feel the pain regardless of change.
I bought Genestealers in 7th. They weren't OP, but they weren't that bad when given proper support. I also bought genestealers in 6th, 5th and 4th.
I bought Termagants in all editions too. What I didn't buy was a flyrant with Two Twin Linked Devourers, because I didn't feel like buying yet ANOTHER tyrant that will only be effective for one edition when I already have 3 Tyrants. I had Dakkafexes, but they were from previous editions. I bought (or rather, made) Mucolids, because I found them to be funny.
Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!
Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.
When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do.
2017/06/01 15:14:56
Subject: If you have been playing long enought you already lived though this at least once
So I actually dug up the old 3rd edition rule book, and I'll fight you on the whole "this edition removed even more character than that". Half the units and armies don't have anything but a statline and gear, without options or special rules.
So they've already done a better job by offering a stop gap that doesn't totally destroy everything unique about the armies, just heavily heavily reduces it.
Which in turn is why I hope they are going to do better further down the line. They mentioned "codexes coming sooner than we think somewhere" so I'm hoping at least 1 a month after release. But who knows.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/01 15:17:22
2017/06/01 15:19:04
Subject: Re:If you have been playing long enought you already lived though this at least once
I bought Assault Marines, Land Speeders, and a Dreadnought during early 7th edition (before the Angels of Death book). Then I collected some Necrons, but just models that would have been present in the original Codex (was going for a "classic" Necron army). Now, I am excited to collect Primaris and Death Guard, and finish up my other armies and get chances to use them more frequently.
I have played Imperial Guard Ogryns in tournaments in 5th Edition. I played a Space Wolf Land Raider + Thunderwolf Army in 6th Edition. And I played Iron Hands Bikers with Vindicators and a Knight in 7th Edition. I have seen the rise and fall of the Leafblower, the Space Wolf Psykers, Epidemius and his army-wide Nurgle buffs win Apocalypse games, and players getting rules between Editions mixed up. The Doom of Malantai caused me plenty of grief in years past, as have Wraithknights, Riptides, and Skyhammer Annihilation Forces.
And now life has happened. As it stands right now, I am having to sell off a bunch of models to get any new ones; I have sold off models for a lack of interest in finishing a project, but never before due to wanting new models. Between bills and family, my funds are basically drained right now, so I may not even be able to get the Index books for 8th Edition, let alone the Starter Set. So for those of you who have over the years "chased the meta" and never experienced a proper Edition change, welcome to the club. I was never going to be able to afford a bunch of Space Marine transports for a Gladius formation, nor am I able to capitalize on what will be "optimized" and "efficient" in 8th Edition unless I happen to already have it. And you know what? That is okay with me!
So to those of you shouting doom and gloom and despair over the Edition change, I recommend taking a minute and trying to figure out WHY you are playing the game. Oh sure, the answer probably is "to have fun!", but WHY are you having fun? Is it to play with certain people? Is it to play to the fluff? Is it to compete in tournaments and see who is the best general? Is it to just escape from everyday life for a couple hours? Take a deep look inside yourself and try to figure out WHY you are playing, and then figure out if 8th Edition is really going to affect that.
2017/06/01 15:40:59
Subject: Re:If you have been playing long enought you already lived though this at least once
BunkhouseBuster wrote: I bought Assault Marines, Land Speeders, and a Dreadnought during early 7th edition (before the Angels of Death book). Then I collected some Necrons, but just models that would have been present in the original Codex (was going for a "classic" Necron army). Now, I am excited to collect Primaris and Death Guard, and finish up my other armies and get chances to use them more frequently.
I have played Imperial Guard Ogryns in tournaments in 5th Edition. I played a Space Wolf Land Raider + Thunderwolf Army in 6th Edition. And I played Iron Hands Bikers with Vindicators and a Knight in 7th Edition. I have seen the rise and fall of the Leafblower, the Space Wolf Psykers, Epidemius and his army-wide Nurgle buffs win Apocalypse games, and players getting rules between Editions mixed up. The Doom of Malantai caused me plenty of grief in years past, as have Wraithknights, Riptides, and Skyhammer Annihilation Forces.
And now life has happened. As it stands right now, I am having to sell off a bunch of models to get any new ones; I have sold off models for a lack of interest in finishing a project, but never before due to wanting new models. Between bills and family, my funds are basically drained right now, so I may not even be able to get the Index books for 8th Edition, let alone the Starter Set. So for those of you who have over the years "chased the meta" and never experienced a proper Edition change, welcome to the club. I was never going to be able to afford a bunch of Space Marine transports for a Gladius formation, nor am I able to capitalize on what will be "optimized" and "efficient" in 8th Edition unless I happen to already have it. And you know what? That is okay with me!
So to those of you shouting doom and gloom and despair over the Edition change, I recommend taking a minute and trying to figure out WHY you are playing the game. Oh sure, the answer probably is "to have fun!", but WHY are you having fun? Is it to play with certain people? Is it to play to the fluff? Is it to compete in tournaments and see who is the best general? Is it to just escape from everyday life for a couple hours? Take a deep look inside yourself and try to figure out WHY you are playing, and then figure out if 8th Edition is really going to affect that.
I mean personally I play because it's fun and I play the armies I play because I like the fluff. My concerns are relative to being able to play effective fluffy lists. My tau and guard concern me because of the price hikes to things like big suits (which needed toned down I just don't know if they went too far) and tanks (which are more durable but at first glance seem too expensive), and the ravenwing needs, which while needed seem overboard since ravenwing bikers don't seem actually better than vanilla ones (mainly because jink seems like it went too far in the nerf direction +1 armor or -1 to hit would have worked and been reasonable I think). Genuinely what I want is fluff appropriate and reasonable balanced units.
2017/06/01 15:52:35
Subject: Re:If you have been playing long enought you already lived though this at least once
SwarmHead wrote: [
I'll tell you how a Tyranid player can be unhappy with 8th. When a tyranid player spends around 300 $ on Flyrants, Mawlocs, Ripper Swarms, Mucolid Spores... And the next edition they get a huge nerf (Swarms "deep striking" at 9" from any enemy and spores at 12" is really, really useless, and the Mawloc entry is TOTAL trash, not to mention flyrant is practically useless now). So, now after I spent around 300 $ in all that stuff... they become unplayable. What can you play now? Genestealers, broodlord, tervigon, gaunts... I'll have to spend around 300 $ again to have a playable army... Yep, that makes me so happy.
Buying yourself into a corner by sticking to netlists/meta builds does come with a certain risk, so that's pretty much tough luck. Unit effectiveness is expected to fluctuate beween editions, so that shouldn't come as a surprise.
Also, things might not be as dire as you think, considering very few people have actually played enough of 8th edition yet to make an educated guess about the upcoming meta.
2017/06/01 16:00:29
Subject: Re:If you have been playing long enought you already lived though this at least once
I was used to many game systems where differing units had their uses in certain circumstances so a diversified army was always ideal if my play style changed or the meta shifted.
I was a modeler first and gamer second, so I was not adverse to having more units than were the most useful at the time.
I love competitive gaming (used to play chess a lot) and models I have been building since I was 12... (35 years... yikes!).
So yes, lived through this at least once and expect to see reboots of many a system in the future.
Sometimes the old way just is not good enough anymore no matte how hard you try to make it work.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
2017/06/01 16:18:30
Subject: Re:If you have been playing long enought you already lived though this at least once
xeen wrote: So I have been playing since 2nd edition (and early in second edition when there were only a few codex) and if you read the leak in the comments section of http://natfka.blogspot.com/2017/05/grey-knights-ahriman-daemons-and-more.htm which has basically all the rules and codexs then you might be freaking out right now. I reviewed all of the Chaos stuff and I was extremely disappointed. I play thousand sons and Tzeentch daemons and I am unimpressed with what they have done. The rubics still seem over-costed when you consider they have to pay 2 points for their weapon, the sorcerer has to pay 12 points for a force sword and can only use the baby smite ability. There is also no Thousand Son powers (but there is Deathguard!?!?), and the Tzeentch powers for the deamons seem sub-par. Then I remembered that I lived though this before..........
The transition from 2nd to 3rd had the same thing. A generic book to create generic armies that lost much of the character of the old armies and seem to be incomplete. Well this time around even more so. But to me 8th edition will not be a failure if at launch it is sub-par or unbalanced. There are 600+ units in this game and play testing all of them sufficiently is probably not realistically possible for the staff at GW without it taking years. GW is going to need feed back from players to truly balance the game, which is what they said they are going to do. If you have been playing long enough you remember when GW would try to shut down websites that leaked info, and now GW is providing "leaks". Also, in some of their faction focus they seem to expressly acknowledge major issues (aka knight armies unbalance, etc.) which would be unheard of at the time of 4th/5th. So I am going to give GW the benefit of the doubt this time to see if they actually do things differently. What I would like to see is:
1. A Codex that fixes any initial launch simplification for each of the major factions within the next two years or so, including things like real psyker powers, warloard traits, faction specific FOC, etc. to bring back the flavor.
2. at about a year from now, a real fix for any unbalanced (under or over costed) units. And make no mistake, there will be lots of units at launch which are over or under costed by points or Power. I will give GW a year because realistically they will need feed back from 100s of 1000s of games from the community to really balance everything just do to the sheer number of units and variations of those units in the game.
If at this time-ish next year GW has not taken any action on community feed back (as they said they would) and have only put out like 2 codex (probably both marine) then it is safe to say that nothing has changed and maybe it is time to truly leave the game for good.
Also, I don't play AOS, but anyone who does, how has that experience shaped what you think will happen with 40k, in terms of support and rules from GW?
Thoughts?
Fellow Thousand Sons Player and I also Play Eshin in AoS.
The Main issues I see, especially for Thousand Sons, are not things that needed to be waited on, and even if they did it would be better to put them out now and get testing started by the community now, rather then waiting a year.
1.) Thousand Sons have access to lots of Sorcerers, which they really can't use, because if they do they will on average blow up their own units 2 or 3 times a game.
2.) No mitigation for Perils, this is unacceptable, and there is no way that Thousand Sons should not have that from the get go.
3.) The only way to mitigate Perils is available to every single army in the game. Currently the best army at casting spells is a Nurgle Army.
4.) Magnus, Ahriman, and Exalted Sorcerers all have the same weak ass bonus, reroll 1s on invul saves. So we get to reroll 1/3 of 1/2 of our saves and will save 1/2 of those IF were lucky.
5.) Its not just the weakness of the bonus, its also the fact that there is no range of bonuses there is no real way to Augment the army in any real way.
I am assuming by support and rules from GW you mean putting out new stuff and fixing broken things. As far as I know the release cycle has been this. Sig Marines (Space Marines) then anything not Sig Marines (Chaos/Xenos/ Non-Imperium) then more Sig Marine releases. They put out a Tzeentch Release which helped Tzeentch players because the spells are set up the same way, each spell can be ATTEMPTED once per turn. Which basically neuters all casting armies. The closest comparison I could give would be Dark Elves they can field units that with minimal support can become very durable and are able to put out noticeable amounts of damage. Problem they no longer have that support, they had it at release and it was taken. There is a "faction" right now that has 2 units in it and no noticeable leaders for that faction. Its a mess for Dark Elves and it wasn't that way at the start, and it doesn't look like its going to be fixed anytime soon.
You will probably see the enitre Primas Marine line before you see anything for TS to fix the situation.
2017/06/01 17:39:46
Subject: If you have been playing long enought you already lived though this at least once
This new edition may see me and my buddies jump back into the grim dark of 40k.
Having played from RT and laughed and cried with that and the other editions upto 5th It looks like we will be well catered for. I like to win and optimise but have a fondness for set piece battles and telling a story.
You must remember that 40k has basically been a derivative of roleplaying rules. With RT being best played with a GM. What was subsequently cannibalised as 2nd then 3rd ed had this directive at its core. We were supposed to make gak up and following the rules verbatim was frowned upon - why playtest the rules when they are only meant as a guide (and that in the loosest sense).
Give me some rules and some ways to play and me and my buddies can figure out the rest.
2017/06/01 19:49:19
Subject: If you have been playing long enought you already lived though this at least once
Mr. Burning wrote: Give me some rules and some ways to play and me and my buddies can figure out the rest.
Making scenarios and running a few practice runs to assess balance is how you make this method work.
I really enjoyed "pickup games" and the latest versions did not facilitate that well.
Meeting new players was some fun in 40k I got used to and it fell by the wayside on the advent of 6th edition and 7th just continued the "trouble".
We have some placeholder army lists for 8th until something more detailed can come online.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
2017/06/01 19:53:30
Subject: If you have been playing long enought you already lived though this at least once
I've been saying the same thing, 3rd (edition almost all my games were in) was a big simplification but complexity crept back in. Hoping it'll go the same way here.
