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I've only scrutinized one army in the new edition (Battle Sisters), and I've seen that while the basic infantry model's points have come down, special weapons and transports have gone up so much that the army has gotten smaller at a given point value (or, if you wish, it takes more points to field the army you've been running).

Is that true for most there armies as well? I noticed that Marines are priced at the same points per model, but I haven't looked at the whole army, or any other army.

Is there a general trend in army size at a given point value? What looks like it will be the next go-to game size?

Why are people asking for even higher points cost games now that things have gone up?

The trend literally can't continue. Tables are already creaking under the weight of models at the current common game levels from what I witness. As the marine models get bigger (and the Death Guard aren't exactly slight...) the silliness of a 2000+ game will actually be a logistical issue.

What happens when more 40K models get upsized and players start ditching tournaments because they can't afford to ship or bring their armies on airline flights...

They have stated a few times that a 1500 point game will be perhaps 90 minutes (read: 120 with jawjacking and looking up rules, etc.). I think you'll see the tournament organizers settle on something between 1500-2000 as a standard.

It is true of all the armies and I'm glad that it is! The standard games will still range between 1500 and 2000. That was the case in 2nd (when the model count was FAR smaller) all the way through 7th (when model count was through the roof).

I love that model count is coming down a little (unless you just spam troops)!

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Why are people asking for even higher points cost games now that things have gone up?

Not sure if you detected that from me, but that wasn't my intent. Just saying that it seems that my army has shrunk in terms of model count per point value, wondering if others had as well, and musing on what the new norms might be.

I'd absolutely be content to play two or three games at 1500 in the time it used to take to play one at 2000, even if the armies feel smaller under the new point scheme.

It seems like they're trying to encourage more infantry-based combat over vehicles, likely trying to avoid a repeat of 5th edition's infamous parking lots.

With the removal of blasts, you can group up your infantry far more. You have to be careful of assaults catching extra units, but force concentration will definitely go up. That makes large armies far more pleasant to play with, which I am really looking forward to in 8th.

I have an army of genestealers, Hormagaunts, Termagants and Gargoyles.

I am going to have a giggly gribbly giggity good time.

I have no interest in playing games over 2000 points - it just slows down the game. The larger models should be rare and 1-2 of a kind on the battlefield.

I'd prefer to play at a 1500 point level as you can use all your favourite units together while still having to make some hard choice on what to include.

I'm trying to imagine infantry heavy guard/tyranid at a point value higher than 2000, with current prices.

I think people need to scale back on their big models.

 gossipmeng wrote:
I have no interest in playing games over 2000 points - it just slows down the game. The larger models should be rare and 1-2 of a kind on the battlefield.

I'd prefer to play at a 1500 point level as you can use all your favourite units together while still having to make some hard choice on what to include.

Oddly enough, the larger models tend to make games move faster, rather than slower. An IG Foot army versus a Tyranid list focusing on gaunts will take a lot longer than Grey Knights versus Imperial Knights, no matter the edition being used. To put it simply, a 2000 point IK list can carry a smaller number of models and process their turn far faster than a 1500 IG Infantry List.

That being said, when we look at the the more average armies which focus more on a combined arms approach, yeah, there is a significant difference in an individual's 1500 and 2000 point lists. But hey, that's between you and your opponents to hash out, isn't it? There is no rule or law requiring 2000 or 500 point games.

I'll try to play 1k to 1.5k. Any more starts getting ridiculous.

I'd love to stick with sub-2k games, but I can see folk now playing 3k just to stick the same amount of toys on the table. Which kinda defeats the purpose of a quicker, smaller-scale game...

For years, folks* have complained about GW dropping unit costs each edition to push sales. GW finally inflates costs, especially on big flashy models. The response? "Eh, I guess we'll have to play bigger games now to get GW more money".

Priceless.

* Yes, Dakka isn't a hivemind, these are different people, yadda yadda. It's just funny because this is the sentiment that caused GW to drastically cut unit costs between 2nd and 3rd in the first place. People just really wanted to field their baneblade in a platoon-level skirmish game damn it!

But I'm a fan of the increased prices with it mostly centering on larger models. When marine forces started to look like hordes I knew there was an issue. I think 1500-2000 will be my group's normal sweet spot. And if we ever play stupid huge games, we'll just say it and use PL instead.

Individual point costs mean little provided that everything scales in association with them.

People will choose point levels for their games based on what they can field and how much table space they have access to. Simple as that.

Tournaments will also follow suit. They get a rough idea of how many models they are going to expect on their tables and arrive at a price point to suit. There are enough math grognards surrounding TOs that a "standard" tournament point set will be reached before the end of August.

I play this game for rediculous. Bigger table is my answer. Currently thinking about converting a ping pong table

 MacPhail wrote:
I've only scrutinized one army in the new edition (Battle Sisters), and I've seen that while the basic infantry model's points have come down, special weapons and transports have gone up so much that the army has gotten smaller at a given point value (or, if you wish, it takes more points to field the army you've been running).

Is that true for most there armies as well? I noticed that Marines are priced at the same points per model, but I haven't looked at the whole army, or any other army.

Is there a general trend in army size at a given point value? What looks like it will be the next go-to game size?

Yeah I don't get this, outside of summoning and gladius lists 1850 was fine, 1500 tended to feel small. At least for me.

The smaller model count for many armies will help to differentiate infantry heavy armies like imp guard from elite special ops like mahweens. That adds to character.
More importantly it will make the table feel bigger again. It will make movement more important. It will make commitment of scarce resources more important. And moreover as gw is actively aiming for community input and balancing and closing loopholes exploited by meta minded tournament wizards - who ruin the game and hobby IMO - it will make this game more of a game and less of a deck building exercise.

 jeff white wrote:
The smaller model count for many armies will help to differentiate infantry heavy armies like imp guard from elite special ops like mahweens. That adds to character.

I couldn't agree more. I think this'll be even more apparent with how much more tooled toward infantry (and to an extent walkers) the new edition seems to be. Space marines fighting tyranids is going to be a lot more like the fluff.

At 2k points my Grey knights are probably fielding 22 models.

 Ronin_eX wrote:
For years, folks* have complained about GW dropping unit costs each edition to push sales. GW finally inflates costs, especially on big flashy models. The response? "Eh, I guess we'll have to play bigger games now to get GW more money".

QFT

I am glad to see the rules themselves seem to be pushing a more infantry based game. As much as I like vehicles, the scope of 28mm really is infantry level.

I don't really have many vehicles for 40K. Outside my maulerfiend/forgefiend, I have 3 transports (one is a Land Raider though) and Hellbrute, which I consider more akin to a big, heavy infantry unit more than a vehicle.

I would also like to see games come down is size (I always feel a little bad for horde army players). However, some players gots to have all their toys on the table. Which mean we could see an actual increase in game size so they can get all of their riptides and baneblades on the table. I am much less interested in something like that.

I think the reality is that 7th ed army construction is still here in a lot of ways. Same old story, erbody wants to play wit dere toys and as such how dare you think of restricting detachments. So naturally good luck trying to get tournaments to sane point level like 1500. Also, good luck trying to bring back faction play, for the same reason if you can't cap detachments we're back at square one.

If I were to run an event based on what I've read do far, I'd so a single battalion detachment. That's it. Ya get one faction, play. Right there you'd curb fortifications and super heavies and everyone and their mom running 3 flyrants.

I got the impression after a quick look at the costs that have been leaked that a 2000-point army in 8th will be about what a 1750-1850 army was in 7th. Which leads me to believe that 2000 will be the tournament standard. Now, if I looked at the stuff in more detail, I might revise that statement, but after a quick skim that's what I came up with.

2000 points is now smaller than what was previously 1850, for most armies, especially the ones with vehicles.

A 2000 point space marine army is now something like 50 marines and 5 tanks when it used to be more like 60 and 10 tanks.

2000 points definetly seems smaller than previous 1850 especially if including larger models.

It may be slightly larger at 2000 if you field an I can try hoard as I feel those increased the least in points.

But if we look at any big models land raiders wraith knights imperial knights riptides sit at about around 2x the previous price.

Given the points increases for so many units (some quite drastic jumps in price), the amount you could put on the table at points limits has dropped by a fair bit. I would give a rough estimate that, depending on the army, pre-8th lists are gonna need a 200 to 500 point increase in order to be run. Using the leaks I've started putting together a couple lists with my Tau collection. A 1500 pt list I made looks like a 1000, maybe 1250 pt list from 7th. If we want to keep using our big toys on the table, we will see higher points games in 8th.

At the end of the day, we all want to see our big shiny toys on the table seeing action. I love putting my Riptides, Ghostkeels, Broadsides, and Crisis Suits on the table and putting them to work, and I want to get as many of them on the table as possible. I'm sure everyone on dakka feels the same with regards to their personal favorite big and expensive toys. This will necessitate higher points games. While we may be playing a 2000 point game, given the price increases it will look and feel like a 1500-1850 point game now. On paper it may be bigger, but in person on the table it won't be.

I can also definitely see tournaments like ITC, NOVA, and Adepticon using 2k as their go to points value, and a lot of players will follow the standard set by the big name tournaments.

Bottom line, I personally think that on paper games will get bigger, but on the table in terms of model count they will stay roughly the same.

jcd386 wrote:
2000 points is now smaller than what was previously 1850, for most armies, especially the ones with vehicles.

A 2000 point space marine army is now something like 50 marines and 5 tanks when it used to be more like 60 and 10 tanks.

A bare bones Tactical Squad will run 165.
Predators avg about 170

So it would be 50 Tacticals and 2 Predators for 2000ish points. Maybe can even upgrade one or two weapons...
or you could cut to 25 Tacticals, 5 Preds, and 5 Rhinos for 2035, skimp a tad on the Preds to get it under 2000.

Well, I made a pretty solid UM/Ravenguard Brigade that ticked all the boxes, has three named characters and even a couple flyers... all under 2K points. 76 models. So much for the "more points, less models" complaints.

 GI_Redshirt wrote:
Given the points increases for so many units (some quite drastic jumps in price), the amount you could put on the table at points limits has dropped by a fair bit. I would give a rough estimate that, depending on the army, pre-8th lists are gonna need a 200 to 500 point increase in order to be run. Using the leaks I've started putting together a couple lists with my Tau collection. A 1500 pt list I made looks like a 1000, maybe 1250 pt list from 7th. If we want to keep using our big toys on the table, we will see higher points games in 8th.

At the end of the day, we all want to see our big shiny toys on the table seeing action. I love putting my Riptides, Ghostkeels, Broadsides, and Crisis Suits on the table and putting them to work, and I want to get as many of them on the table as possible. I'm sure everyone on dakka feels the same with regards to their personal favorite big and expensive toys. This will necessitate higher points games. While we may be playing a 2000 point game, given the price increases it will look and feel like a 1500-1850 point game now. On paper it may be bigger, but in person on the table it won't be.

I can also definitely see tournaments like ITC, NOVA, and Adepticon using 2k as their go to points value, and a lot of players will follow the standard set by the big name tournaments.

Bottom line, I personally think that on paper games will get bigger, but on the table in terms of model count they will stay roughly the same.

Actually I'm the opposite. I love to change my army list from game to game. I have at least 1 unit of every entry in the Tau Codex, but as I said, I play for variety. So for me, this price hykes are a blessing. Playing 1850 will make all my opponents adjust their armys! People shouldn't bring all what they want! Thats just absurd. If you want that, play Apocalypse or Open. Matched play is for balanced gameplay, and to have balance you need restrictions.